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Joy Behar Page
Designer`s Racist Rant; Sweat Lodge Trial
Aired March 01, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: In the past two days Charlie Sheen has appeared on the "Today Show", "Good Morning America" and Piers Morgan. Tomorrow I hear he`s doing "Good Day Buffalo", "Hello, (INAUDIBLE)", and "What`s Up, Boca Raton? Apparently the only show he`s not doing is my show.
Charlie, Charlie, what`s it going to take? Come on, you can make yourself right at home. You can trash the set. I`ll let you throw a few lamps around. You can even lock me in the bathroom. I`m easy, haven`t you heard?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW shocking video surfaces of high profile fashion designer John Galliano praising Hitler. As cops consider prosecuting Galliano, fashion house Christian Dior has fired the head designer. How can such despicable views crop up in a liberal industry?
Then the trial of self-help guru James Arthur Ray has begun; charged with manslaughter after three people allegedly died in his Arizona sweat lodge, ray could face ten years in prison.
Plus, new TV show "Beyond Scared Straight" brings troubled teens to inmates who use scare tactics to steer them from crime. So does it work or is it just a ratings ploy?
That and more starting right now.
Luxury fashion house Christian Dior has fired its star designer John Galliano after he allegedly went on an anti-Semitic tirade in a Parisian bar last week and this video surfaced of him making similar remarks in a separate incident in December.
Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you blond? Are you blond with blue eyes?
JOHN GALLIANO, FASHION DESIGNER: No. But I love Hitler. And people like you would be dead today. Your mothers, your forefathers would (EXPLETIVE DELETED) gassed and (EXPLETIVE DELETED) dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh my God. Do you have a problem, huh?
GALLIANO: With you? You`re ugly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: He`s no beauty. Hello. With me now to talk about this are: Jacob Bernstein, senior reporter at "The Daily Beast"; Robert Verdi, celebrity stylist and co-creator of firstcomefashion.com; and Rabbi Marvin Hier, founder and dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center Museum of Tolerance. Welcome to the show all of you.
Rabbi, this guy Galliano was gay. Doesn`t he realize Hitler would have gassed him as well? He doesn`t seem to get that. He would have been right in there.
(CROSSTALK)
RABBI MARVIN HIER, FOUNDER, SIMON WIESENTHAL CENTER MUSEUM OF TOLERANCE: He would have been in the front of the line. But it`s simply absolutely outrageous and a person who considers himself a mainstreamer. You know, in the last year, 2010 we`ve had a number of anti-Semitic remarks by mainstream people all over the world.
BEHAR: I noticed. Yes, what is that? What`s going on?
HIER: It`s a new phenomenon. And I congratulate Christian Dior and Natalie Portman for doing the right thing and saying there`s no room for this and firing him was the right thing to do. And the only thing I can say is that he still has a job opportunity if he contacts Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who I`m sure would hire him.
BEHAR: I`m sure there`s a real opening over there.
Let me read you Natalie Portman`s full statement while he mentioned it. "I am deeply shocked and disgusted by the video of John Galliano`s comments that surfaced today. In light of this video and as an individual who`s proud to be Jewish I will not be associated with Mr. Galliano in any way."
Do you think, Jacob, do you think that her statement prompted Dior to fire the guy?
JACOB BERNSTEIN, SENIOR REPORTER, THE DAILY BEAST: No. I don`t think her statement prompted them to fire him at all. I just think it was the right thing to. And I think it`s too bad that other people on Sunday night at the Oscars were still wearing his dresses. I mean, you know --
BEHAR: They made no comment about the fact that they were wearing it and they knew about this.
BERNSTEIN: No comment.
Yes, totally. And there are relationships that these celebrities now have with the fashion houses and payments are made.
BEHAR: It`s really despicable.
BERNSTEIN: And they should not have been wearing his dresses.
ROBERT VERDI, CELEBRITY STYLIST: I don`t think they knew in advance of the Oscars. This tape hadn`t been released. It was all suspect.
BEHAR: No, no, no. They knew something.
(CROSSTALK)
BERNSTEIN: Well, there was already, there was absolutely already, you know, strong indications that he had made anti-Semitic remarks. There was an accusation out there --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Can I just say something?
VERDI: Charlie Sheen is actually going to play Galliano in a movie that`s directed by Mel Gibson and it`s coming out next forum.
BEHAR: You know, let me just say something. We tried to book a few designers tonight to talk about this. They were busy. They all have something else to do they said. I`m waiting to see what all of them will be tweeting and Facebooking about this because a lot of them are Jewish themselves.
Rabbi, don`t you think that everybody needs to speak out against this sort of thing immediately? I`m doing it, we`re doing it.
HIER: Absolutely. As I said before, Joy, this -- these are mainstream individuals. You know, you can expect this from terrorists, from crackpots, from --
BEHAR: Crackheads.
HIER: From the neo-Nazi movement. But when it goes mainstream, we need everybody in the mainstream community to condemn it.
BEHAR: And then what is the -- there seems to be -- he`s right, the rabbi.
VERDI: Yes, I agree.
BEHAR: There`s like this upsurge. You know Helen Thomas was on my show a couple of weeks ago and her comment about the Jews was they needed to go back to Europe and not go to Israel the way they did.
VERDI: We should invite her over for Shabbat and give her a brisket.
BEHAR: Yes, but I mean you know, Rabbi, when she says something like that, it`s like, what were they going to go back to exactly in those days? And also this shows you that anti-Semitism is always there.
HIER: It`s always there.
BEHAR: It`s always under the surface.
VERDI: All the racism, there`s a lot of racism there.
HIER: And let me point out, she knows that, too. She knows the Jews have no -- where would they go back to? Those who came to Israel? She knows that but she made the statement anyway and unbelievably she was an honored guest by many presidents at the White House. You`d never expect that from a person like that.
Then there`s Oliver Stone who made remarks, Jews own everything. You know, we control the media. We own -- it should only be true.
BEHAR: Yes. I don`t think Rupert Murdoch is Jewish. This guy -- the thing about this Galliano is that he also had a collection of homeless people outfits.
BERNSTEIN: Yes, he did.
BEHAR: What is up with him?
BERNSTEIN: Yes, well I think the interesting thing is that everything about Galliano`s politics has raised uncomfortable questions. You know, his vision of women, he once said that his ultimate goal was for men to want to have sex with a woman when they wear his dresses.
This is not Miuccia Prada who was in a discourse with architects like Coolhouse and reading books. This was about kind of a certain "Sex and the City" vision of the world. And then he did this homeless collection and he said after that that he believes that the homeless people on the Seine (ph) are very chic and choose to be homeless. So --
BEHAR: Oh, they choose to be homeless.
BERNSTEIN: They choose to be homeless. I mean the idea that it was about mental illness was something he didn`t quite get. And in terms of what you were saying --
BEHAR: Maybe he`s just stupid.
BERNSTEIN: I think that is a distinct possibility.
VERDI: The reality is that homelessness is the new black. And everybody in fashion knows that.
BEHAR: The rabbi`s going, whatever, it`s not that good a joke. Whatever.
VERDI: Rabbi, you know I`m just joking, right, Rabbi?
BEHAR: He`s a jokester.
HIER: I know that and I appreciate it.
BEHAR: That`s right. Jews love a good laugh. But you know, the other thing is apparently this guy, Rabbi, he was drunk, they say in this video. He looked a little drunk. Is that any excuse -- that was the excuse that Mel Gibson gave?
HIER: No. That`s what Mel Gibson said. They`re all drunk. The fact of the matter is, there`s a Yiddish saying and it`s what a drunk has on his tongue is what he has on his tongue in his normal state of affairs. So I don`t believe that the drunkenness is going to be an excuse.
This is a person --
BEHAR: In vino veritas. Another Jewish statement.
VERDI: There`s also another one that I love which is, "What a shmuck."
BEHAR: What a shmuck, exactly.
Charlie Sheen, you know, is under fire for calling "Two and a Half Men" creator Chuck Lorre -- Rabbi listen to this -- by his Hebrew name, Chaim Levine. The guy`s name is Charles Levine, I believe. Charlie Sheen says Chaim Levine. He`s sort of under the gun for making a sort of an anti-Semitic slur. Do you put it in the same category with this? Or do you think that was anti-Semitic?
HIER: I don`t think it`s in the same category at all. You know, I`m not defending, you know, Charlie Sheen. It`s not in the same category. Let`s remember that in the case of, when we`re talking about Galliano, he said that Jews, your parents, your grandparents were gassed, they deserved to be gassed. That`s a different level of anti-Semitism.
BEHAR: Right.
HIER: But let me say this. When Charlie Sheen, he explained his way out of it; he says, look, Chaim Lorre, that`s the way he identified himself three weeks ago. He called himself Chaim Lorre. He didn`t explain why he said on the radio that his bosses at CBS were Nazis. His lawyer and he never explained that.
BEHAR: I don`t know what that even -- I can`t even imagine what he`s talking about. Charlie Sheen has been very erratic and ranting all over the place.
BERNSTEIN: One thing you`re seeing is that the anti-Semites are not geniuses, right? I mean Galliano may be a genius technically as a fashion designer. But that`s not the same thing as having intellectual fire power.
BEHAR: But, Jacob, I don`t know that you can say the anti-Semites are not geniuses. You have Ezra Pound, who was a great poet, he was an anti- Semite. The Wagner -- whole thing. Right Rabbi? You don`t have to be stupid to be an anti-Semite. A lot of them are very bright people and that`s even more dangerous. I don`t even think Hitler was that stupid to tell you the truth.
HIER: Absolutely.
Well, let`s remember that when they planned the Wannsee conference which was the conference that decided to gas the Jews, eight of the 14 participants were PhDs.
So you can be a mainstreamer and be an anti-Semite.
BEHAR: And believe me Dr. Joseph Mengele was an MD. I mean --
HIER: That`s correct.
BEHAR: It`s really scary stuff. Ok, thank you, guys, very much for this.
VERDI: And have some (INAUDIBLE).
BEHAR: Let`s get -- let`s all have some (INAUDIBLE). A quick programming note: tomorrow night at 10:00 p.m., I`ll be joined by one of my -- listen to this -- my favorite actresses of all time, the fabulous Catherine Deneuve. I don`t know what to even say. C`est magnifique. She`ll be here tomorrow.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Up next on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW. Joy breaks down day one of the trial of sweat lodge guru James Arthur Ray.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Three people tragically died in an overheated sweat lodge two years ago in Arizona. And is a popular self -- self-help guru to blame? Prosecutors claim James Arthur Ray refused to let his followers leave the sweat lodge despite triple digit heat. But the defense says the deaths were an accident.
Let`s find out more from Beth Karas, correspondent for "In Session" for TruTV outside the courthouse in Arizona. And with her is Shawna Bowen, a motivational speaker and therapist who witnessed the sweat lodge tragedy. She`s the author of "Never Again" and Susan Filan, former prosecutor and trial attorney.
Ok Beth let me start with you. Set the stage here. What was the sweat -- sweat lodge like? And what was happening in there? Tell everybody what we`re talking about.
BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION" ON TRUTV: Well, it -- well, hi, Joy.
BEHAR: Hi.
KARAS: This was part of a five-day seminar. It was the grand finale of a five-day seminar, sort of a spiritual quest for people to push themselves to limits they thought unattainable, to do things they never thought they could do.
So this was after a 36-hour vision quest, a fast in the desert, people had breakfast and then they went into this two-hour sweat lodge ceremony. It was eight rounds of 10 to 15 minutes. It is like a traditional Native American ritual, however, this was a -- a larger sweat lodge than the typical that would hold 10 or 15 people.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: I see.
KARAS: This held up to 75 people. And it got hot in there, hotter than the traditional sweat lodge.
BEHAR: How hot?
KARAS: Well, we don`t know the exact temperature. There`s not been anything that I`ve read in police reports of the exact temperature, but I`m sure we`ll hear people talk about how it was hotter than their experiences in steam rooms or -- or saunas and that it was unbearable.
Well, here people say that more rocks -- it was heated by rocks that were heated outside the sweat lodge and then brought in -- more rocks than a typical sweat lodge ceremony were brought to this one and then he, Ray would pour water on it and create steam and it would get hot inside.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: I see.
KARAS: That he used up to 60 rocks versus 20 which was more of a norm or something like that.
BEHAR: All right, Shana, you were there when the tragedy unfolded. What exactly did you see? First of all, was this guy, James Arthur Ray, in the sweat lodge? I don`t think so.
SHAWNA BOWEN, WITNESSED SWEAT LODGE TRAGEDY: James was in the sweat lodge.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: He was?
BOWEN: When you`re conducting sweat lodge -- yes -- the person conducting the sweat lodge is a part of it. And he was the one pouring the water and also deciding how often the door would open and they`d bring in more hot rocks.
I fortunately was not in the sweat lodge. I couldn`t afford to go to the seminar.
BEHAR: Lucky you.
(CROSS TALK)
BOWEN: If I could I would have been inside.
BEHAR: Here`s an example --
BOWEN: Yes.
BEHAR: -- of where not having money helped you. Uh-huh?
BOWEN: Exactly. So I ended up arriving pretty much moments after the paramedics did just in hopes to connect with my favorite motivational speaker at the time.
BEHAR: So what is -- what is this guy, Ray`s responsibility, Susan?
SUSAN FILAN, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, that`s exactly --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
FILAN: -- this trial is going to be about. The prosecution is going to say that he is criminally responsible for these deaths. They`re calling it reckless homicide or negligent homicide. They`re saying that he caused the deaths because of his actions.
The defense is saying, no, he didn`t cause their deaths, they were free to leave, they could have gotten up and walked out.
BEHAR: Were they?
FILAN: Well, they were free to leave in the sense that they weren`t shackled and handcuffed. He wasn`t keeping them prisoner. But the prosecution is saying essentially they were his prisoners because it was like a cult. They paid money so that they could learn from him how they could become self-empowered, how they could become millionaires, how they could overcome whatever -- I mean, this was self-help. They wanted his help.
So they weren`t going to leave when he was saying, don`t leave, this is the key to freedom, this is how you`re going to get to be like me --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: I see.
FILAN: -- don`t leave, come on, stay. They were vomiting, and they were passing out.
Prosecution is going to say, he knew they were in distress, he knew they were in trouble and he was making it hotter and hotter. So the prosecution is going to say, that`s negligent homicide, that`s how he caused their deaths.
BEHAR: I see, but again, they could have left.
FILAN: They could have left.
BEHAR: Yes.
FILAN: They didn`t leave because they were going to him for help.
BEHAR: Yes.
FILAN: It`s -- the -- the analogy would be like an athlete with a coach who`s saying, you know, run or do push-ups in extreme heat. They`re trusting that coach to make them the athlete, but it`s very hot and the athlete -- the coach is making them run.
BEHAR: I see. I know but we`re all adults. It`s not like they`re children, these people. You know, now Ray reportedly told -- this is what he told his followers. "You will feel as if you`re going to die. I guarantee that. You will feel like your skin is going to fall off."
Shawna, you`ve been in a sweat lodge before. What exactly happens in there? Do you feel like you`re going to die?
BOWEN: I have been to probably over 100 sweat lodge with native elders and that is not the experience of sweat lodge. And the thing is the people that were going into that sweat lodge had no knowledge of sweat lodge. They were completely and totally trusting in their leader to lead them through a spiritual experience that was supposed to feel good afterwards.
BEHAR: Oh, boy.
BOWEN: So I -- I am not interested in someone pulling the common sense card in this situation.
(CROSS TALK)
FILAN: Yes, I think that`s right.
BOWEN: Those people had no food, sleep, water.
FILAN: Right.
BOWEN: They were not on their game. They were completely trusting in a situation. They had no experience otherwise to compare it to.
(CROSS TALK)
FILAN: That`s right and you maybe --
BOWEN: And they were encouraged to play full-on and don`t quit.
BEHAR: I see.
FILAN: And you may trust somebody, but if you`re trusting somebody to create an environment for you --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
FILAN: -- you have to also trust that the environment is safe. And it isn`t going to kill you. And if you create an environment that`s so unsafe and is so dangerous arguably that it results in your death --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Yes, I see.
FILAN: -- that`s reckless homicide.
BEHAR: Ok. We`ll be back with some more in the next segment. Stay there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Ok. We`ll be back with some more in the next segment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back discussing James Arthur Ray on trial for manslaughter. He was a very popular self-help expert. He co-wrote "The Secret" and was even a guest on Oprah. Watch a clip from his Harmonic Wealth lecture.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES ARTHUR RAY, SELF-HELP GURU: Your greatest spiritual calling is to find your purpose in this lifetime and pursue it and to do it with excellence. To fall so in love with what you do and so in love with what you`re a part of that the lines blur.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: This guy seems psycho to me. Ok? The guy preaches spirituality leads to wealth. Sweat lodge trip costs $9,000 each, as Shawna pointed out, she couldn`t afford it. Was this guy just interested in making money, Beth?
KARAS: Well, that is what many of his now-disillusioned followers believe. We`re actually believing before the 2009 incident that he cared more about the higher socioeconomic followers of his; people who could afford tens of thousands of dollars over the course of a year. There`s no question that he has a message in there that is similar to what a lot of leaders of, you know, religions practice.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Joel Osteen, that`s Joel Osteen.
Yes, that is Joel Osteen`s rap also that it has to do with making money, if you`re a good person and you`re religious, it`s good to make money. So that`s very Calvinist.
FILAN: It`s also if you do what you love, money will come. But it sounds like the spirituality that leads to wealth was his own wealth.
BEHAR: Yes. That`s another baloney wrap, if you do what you love, money will come. There are so many people who do what they love. They drink, they love that. I don`t see where that leads to money. It`s just baloney.
On a DVD, he says he was in the top one percent of income earners. He had homes in Vegas, California and Hawaii. This guy is a charlatan. And people seem to be brainwashed. Am I right, Shawna?
BOWEN: There`s so much going on here. I would think, at least, what I talk about in my book and in other things is that perhaps James Ray in the beginning had good intentions, and I believe that as power comes upon someone that they create blind spots and can no longer really see what`s going on.
BEHAR: Why?
BOWEN: That`s the problem with people who have a lot of leadership and power is if you do not create the responsibility with that power to really understand what`s going on there, harm is going to follow to those people who are following him.
BEHAR: Right. But you were one of these people right?
BOWEN: And I -- so I would have to think James maybe had -- yes. I loved what he was saying regarding just having that, like, harmonic way of living and self-improvement. That`s something that I look for in my life is self-improvement, self-awareness. He was one of the people that I looked to.
BEHAR: But you know, one of my friends, it`s probably from AA or something, but he says, it`s always an inside job. It`s not like you can go outside yourself and find somebody to tell you how to live your life. That`s why "The Secret" and the rest is a bunch of baloney. You have to look into yourself.
So I don`t really have -- I have sympathy for these people. It`s unfortunate what happened to them, but they`re cult followers. They seem to just need, need, need somebody else. And this guy`s obviously a nut.
FILAN: So are you going to blame them that it led to their death --
BEHAR: I don`t blame the victim.
FILAN: Are you going to blame him, hold him legally responsible for their death?
BEHAR: Well, you`re the lawyer. Should he be?
FILAN: I think what`s going to be fascinating about this trial, the prosecution is now in a fight with the judge as to what`s going to be allowed into evidence. Are you going to allow his motivational tapes, are you going to allow, in other words, to create this cult following? Because what`s at stake here is exactly what you brought up in the beginning, Joy, their state of mind. Were they free to leave? How come they didn`t just leave? Are you going to hold them responsible, or are you going to hold him responsible? That`s what`s at stake at this trial.
BEHAR: It`s an interesting case.
FILAN: Fascinating.
BEHAR: Ok. Thank you, ladies, very much. We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: In the past 48 hours, Charlie Sheen has been all over the place, saying that the only thing he`s addicted to is Charlie Sheen. Maybe he should snort himself.
Here to discuss Charlie and all the news of the day are actor and author of "Mr. Funny Pants," Michael Showalter. "US Weekly" staff writer Ericka Souter. And writer Paul Rudnick.
Now, before we get to you guys, I just want to show you something. After being suspended by CBS, Charlie Sheen is firing back and he`s finding strength in his bags of money, morning talk shows, and live-in hookers. Here he is on "Good Morning America."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLIE SHEEN, ACTOR: Look at these two. Wow. Who`s got it better than me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you love about these two?
SHEEN: What`s not to love? Everything. Every (inaudible), every memory, every (inaudible). All of it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re like the new Hugh Hefner here.
SHEEN: He`s an amateur.
(CROSSTALK)
SHEEN: He`s like 90. He`s a trailblazer and a pioneer. I`m honored to be mentioned in the same sentence with him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: OK, Michael, these two girls are baby-sitting for his children. Does this take -- does this take childcare to a new level or what?
MICHAEL SHOWALTER, ACTOR AND AUTHOR: Wow. It`s shocking.
BEHAR: Is it shocking?
SHOWALTER: It`s shocking.
BEHAR: Are you jealous?
SHOWALTER: Of course.
(LAUGHTER)
SHOWALTER: Are you kidding me? I`m not disapproving at all. But I disapprove.
BEHAR: What do you disapprove of?
SHOWALTER: That he`s doing that and not me.
BEHAR: OK. Good. So you`re as deep as he is. I love that about you. Now, Charlie does say he`s sober right now. But he`s spending all of his waking hours doing interviews. So that will prevent you from drinking, right?
PAUL RUDNICK, AUTHOR: Charlie has also positioned himself as the voice of the working man. Because he`s claiming that the reason he`s suing CBS for millions of dollars is so that the crew can get the back salary that`s due to them. And you think, then, he should go to Wisconsin and fight for the union members.
BEHAR: That`s right.
RUDNICK: But I would respect him more if he said, look, I`m supporting a lot of whores and drug dealers, and they deserve to be paid.
BEHAR: Exactly.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: That would be truthful, yes.
ERICKA SOUTER, US WEEKLY: He has got kids, he`s got porn stars, he`s got ex-nanny girlfriends/"Chronic" magazine`s girl of the year. He has really got a lot on his plate.
BEHAR: He does.
SOUTER: He does.
BEHAR: But who do you think is crazier? Him or Moammar Gadhafi?
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s close.
BEHAR: It`s close, yes.
SOUTER: But Charlie`s winning at this point.
BEHAR: Charlie is winning? You know, a lot of people say that the drugs, now that he`s sober again for a few minutes, he really was medicating himself because he really is a little bit off, and that`s what the drugs were about. You know, people smoke pot to medicate themselves. You know, because they`re high and they`re agitated and it calms them down.
SOUTER: And he`s the highest functioning drug addict I`ve ever seen. No one ever complained about him coming to the set unprepared or slurring his words or late or anything. I mean, he really came ready to do the show.
SHOWALTER: I mean, you are saying he`s crazier now than when he was a drug addict.
BEHAR: Yes, in a way, the true craziness is coming out now.
SOUTER: You don`t think it`s still kind of -- it`s in the system? You don`t think--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well, they say that it`s really not out yet. I was talking to a drug counselor the other day. And it`s still in the system. Yes.
RUDNICK: It`s like radioactive waste. It has a shelf life, you know.
(LAUGHTER)
SOUTER: For him it might be, like, ten years.
SHOWALTER: Or macaroni.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: His quotes are some of my favorite quotes. I mean, he`s right out of Bartlett`s. "I am on a drug, it`s called Charlie Sheen." He loves himself. Strong ego in the guy, right?
SOUTER: Everyone loves Charlie Sheen. I mean, look at us, we can`t wait for the next thing he`s going to say. We can`t get enough of him. He is like a drug.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I don`t know if that`s called love, exactly.
RUDNICK: No, but it`s almost refreshing, because so many Hollywood stars participate in such hypocrisy of saying, yes, I was a drug addict and a drunk for 35 great years, but now I`m ashamed and I would never do it again. Charlie Sheen, you know, is very, you know, just seems to harbor no guilt whatsoever. He says, look, everyone wishes they were me. And on some level, that`s kind of true.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: He`s making $2 million an episode.
RUDNICK: Yes.
BEHAR: That`s the reason.
SHOWALTER: It`s either love or it`s rubber necking. I mean, we like, you know, there`s still documentaries about the Hindenburg and stuff like that. It`s the same kind of thing.
BEHAR: Yes, we--
SHOWALTER: We just love watching--
BEHAR: Watching the train wreck, yes.
RUDNICK: Disasters, we love that, yes.
BEHAR: What is it about the human race that`s so sick? Isn`t it?
SHOWALTER: Because we`re intrinsically bad people.
BEHAR: That`s true. We`re evil.
(CROSSTALK)
SOUTER: At least that`s not me, at least I`m not going there.
BEHAR: They blame it all on Eve. Adam gets off. It`s all Eve. She made him eat the apple--
(CROSSTALK)
SHOWALTER: Well, he was on -- I don`t know.
(LAUGHTER)
SHOWALTER: I don`t know the story of Adam and Eve. I don`t even know.
BEHAR: The new cast of "Dancing With the Stars" has been announced. I`m sure you`re thrilled about that. Christine O`Donnell has declined the invitation, unfortunately. This is why. She says she`s working on a new book. How long does it take someone to finish reading "Goodnight Moon?"
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: That`s what I want to know. OK. Are you disappointed at all, Paul, that Christine O`Donnell won`t do "Dancing With the Stars?" I am.
RUDNICK: Well, I understand it, because Christine`s middle name, after all, is dignity. You know, of course she would resist that kind of cheap public exposure. Although when I was reading more about Christine`s background, she has never won an election. She`s won like the rare primary, but she`s run hundreds of times without ever getting even close.
BEHAR: Right. Sarah Palin at least did win a couple of elections.
RUDNICK: Yes.
BEHAR: Even though she quits in the middle.
RUDNICK: So you`d think Christine would have had a better shot at "Dancing With the Stars."
BEHAR: You would think so.
RUDNICK: Especially being up against Kirstie Alley.
BEHAR: Well, Kirstie Alley is one of the stars we`ll be seeing, along with Wendy Williams, Kendra Wilkinson, boxing legend Sugar Ray Leonard, and "Karate Kid" Ralph Macchio. Or Macchio -- I don`t know.
SOUTER: Macchio.
BEHAR: Macchio, yes. So what about that? What do you think about that, Ericka?
SOUTER: They always get a mixed bag of nuts. You can`t wait to see Kirstie Alley because you`re going to also watch her lose weight. You know, everyone wants to see the biggest person on the show shed the pounds. I mean, everyone has lost weight, except for--
BEHAR: Except for Bristol.
SOUTER: -- Bristol Palin, yes, of course.
BEHAR: She put on a few -- quite a bit of tonnage, yes.
SOUTER: It was muscle weight.
BEHAR: It was muscle? Yes. I don`t think so. You know, Kirstie Alley, she called me names on Twitter. She called me a self-righteous kooz head.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: And Joy Bewhore she called me. Compliments, compliments. I know.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: She also wrote, "God, I want to bash in her vagina with her microphone." You know, she`s got my vote right there. I`m voting for her.
SOUTER: Everyone`s much nicer when they`re on the show because they`re begging for votes. They want to seem helpless and that they`re trying really hard.
BEHAR: Why is she so hostile?
SHOWALTER: Why does she want to bash in your vagina with a microphone?
BEHAR: I don`t know. She -- I never even--
(LAUGHTER)
SHOWALTER: Why did she single out your vagina? And why is the microphone the instrument?
SOUTER: That is weird.
BEHAR: You tell me.
SHOWALTER: I don`t know.
(CROSSTALK)
SOUTER: Honestly, she was dieting, she was hungry.
BEHAR: I`m afraid she`ll eat me.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Here`s the thing. She`s hostile, this girl.
SHOWALTER: Oh, clearly.
BEHAR: So why would anybody want her on "Dancing With the Stars?"
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: She had fights with Conan and Perez Hilton. She likes to start fights.
(CROSSTALK)
SOUTER: You need people to tune in. They love to watch people they hate as much as they love to watch people they like.
BEHAR: That`s true.
RUDNICK: She`s like an economic stimulus package for late-night talk show hosts. Because they`ve made all the Charlie Sheen jokes. Now they get the Kirstie fat jokes.
BEHAR: I don`t do fat jokes. So I will not be one of those people, so she better move on to somebody else. OK, Kirstie? Kirstie, whatever your name is.
Now, listen to this. I hear that Anne Hathaway is pissed at James Franco. This is a rumor, that he phoned it in at the Oscars, she had to do all the heavy lifting. She has a hernia, the poor girl. Did you watch it? So what do you know about this, Ericka?
SOUTER: Well, sources tell us that she was really pissed off. She felt that he phoned it in, that he wasn`t pulling his weight, that she was really all the energy and the perk. And you know, you watched the show, it got very mixed reviews. When James wasn`t --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It was panned basically across -- but they say that about every year. Don`t they say it`s the worst show every year? The Oscars?
SOUTER: Not always. Billy Crystal, you know, Alec Baldwin, they always do a great job.
BEHAR: Yeah. Well, why don`t they just bring Billy Crystal back? What`s the big woop? Are they going for the young demographics? And I heard the numbers were way down in the demographics. So it`s not working. Why do you think it`s not working?
SOUTER: (inaudible) ratings.
SHOWALTER: Because it shouldn`t be a competition. I mean, it shouldn`t -- we shouldn`t -- people shouldn`t be competing to be winning, like I was thinking, you know, like, whoever wins best director, and they`re like, it`s true, I am the best director this year. I really am. I really did do the best job of directing in 2011.
BEHAR: Somebody did say that at one time--
(CROSSTALK)
SHOWALTER: James Cameron--
BEHAR: Didn`t Shirley MacLaine once said I deserve this or something?
(CROSSTALK)
SHOWALTER: You win that reward and you`re like, I`m glad they recognize that I really was the best at this in this particular year.
BEHAR: And they should, they should say that.
SHOWALTER: Well, I don`t think they should make -- can`t we all be good at something? Do we have to be-- OK.
RUDNICK: I always like how especially the actors always say it`s such an honor be to nominated, even with my four co-nominees, and they usually say their first names. And you want them to say, well, it`s an honor, except for Annette Bening. You know, I love the other women, but Annette, not you--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Why would they do that?
RUDNICK: I don`t know, just --
(CROSSTALK)
RUDNICK: -- refreshing.
BEHAR: Just to be mean. As he says, we`re just nasty people.
SHOWALTER: Or Meryl Streep.
RUDNICK: Exactly.
SHOWALTER: That would be the ultimate.
BEHAR: Yeah. But you know, her -- Anne`s representatives denied that she`s pissed at him. They said the story is completely false. Anne had a wonderful experience hosting with James and those stories of them not getting along are complete fabrications. Isn`t that a publicist`s job to deny all of that?
SOUTER: It is. He`s doing his job and he`s doing it well.
BEHAR: You know, I mean, the guy was so upset, according to my sources, that he was hosting an afterparty and he didn`t show up to his own party.
SOUTER: Right. Right.
BEHAR: What does that tell you?
RUDNICK: It was a school night for James.
SOUTER: He couldn`t get a note to excuse him from class.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: OK. We only have 30 seconds, but I just want to talk about Jane Russell for a second, because you guys are too young to remember her maybe? I don`t know.
SHOWALTER: No, no--
BEHAR: You`re not.
SHOWALTER: We talked about this.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: She died at 89 today. Or it was yesterday, rather. She was the full-figured model. And if you look at the pictures of her from her day, 1943, she was in a movie where she had like an off-the-shoulder -- here, let me demonstrate. Could the director, please, get a little of this? OK, this is what she did.
SHOWALTER: Whoa. Whoa.
BEHAR: It was a cause celebre. I mean, now you cannot watch a movie without people having anal sex, cunnilingus -- missionary position is like so boring at this point. And all you do is see people having sex on screen now.
SHOWALTER: It`s true. I mean, there was so much cunnilingus in "Toy Story 3."
BEHAR: Wasn`t there?
SHOWALTER: Oh my God.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: A lot of that in "Toy Story 3."
RUDNICK: Well, those potato heads.
(CROSSTALK)
SOUTER: In this day and age --
BEHAR: "Avenue Q" destroyed sex with puppets for me forever.
SOUTER: Oh my God.
BEHAR: I can`t watch puppets having sex anymore.
SHOWALTER: Before "Avenue Q," you could watch it all day long.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes, but after that, I could not watch it anymore.
SOUTER: Jane Russell would have to do a lot more these days to make a mark.
BEHAR: I mean, really, she`d really have to do -- I don`t know what she`d have to do.
SOUTER: Streak at the Super Bowl or something.
BEHAR: OK. Anyway. Thanks, guys.
She became a very conservative Christian, too. It was ironic. OK. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: "Beyond Scared Straight" is an A&E series that follows at-risk teens who spend a day in prison to learn directly from inmates the harsh realities of life behind bars. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, man, come on, man.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not taking this from you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where did you get it from?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who told you? Who?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Which one?
(CROSSTALK)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Do these programs really scare kids straight? Or are they potentially harmful? Here now to discuss this are Arnold Shapiro, creator and executive producer of "Beyond Scared Straight," and Steven, the teen we just saw on the clip and who was featured on the show. Welcome to the show, you guys.
Arnold, you produced the "Scared Straight" documentary in 1978. I kind of remember it. And as a result, a lot of states started scared straight programs, right? OK.
ARNOLD SHAPIRO, CREATOR, BEYOND SCARED STRAIGHT: You were a child at the time, I`m sure.
BEHAR: I was in utero. How are these types of programs different today than they were, I guess that`s how many years ago, 30 years ago?
SHAPIRO: They`re completely different today. There is no more scared straight. That`s why our series is called "Beyond Scared Straight." Today`s programs have counseling as a major component. In some cases, the total component. 32 years ago when I did "Scared Straight," it was about scaring kids, and that`s all. That`s over and done with.
BEHAR: No more scary?
SHAPIRO: Today`s 21st -- no, there`s -- scaring is a component to get their attention. But this is all now all about counseling and choices and consequences and showing kids that if they do the same things that these inmates were doing at their age, they`re going to wind up in the same place.
BEHAR: I see.
SHAPIRO: So today`s programs are much more effective than just scaring kids, which they did in the `60s and `70s.
BEHAR: So the show should be called scared and canceled straight.
SHAPIRO: No, it`s called "Beyond Scared Straight."
BEHAR: OK. But let me talk to Steve. You were 17 when you did this, right, Steven?
STEVEN, FEATURED ON "BEYOND SCARED STRAIGHT": Correct.
BEHAR: OK. What kind of trouble were you in, by the way, that caused all of this to have to happen for you?
STEVEN: Well, as far as, like, all the trouble, I really don`t like talking about, you know, all the trouble that I`ve been through when I was a juvenile, since I turned 18 and had my daughter. I really don`t like speaking about my past and all of that.
But you know, like, Arnold`s show, you know, at first I`m not going to lie, at first I was a little paranoid, but I wasn`t scared to the point, like, oh, man, I think this is life or death. But for a person like me, it took a while. You know, I had to go home and sit down and think about it, you know, what they were trying to preach to me. You know? Because a wise person told me that fools never listen. You know, the wisest are the people who always take information that anyone gives them and turn it into a positive influence. So I really thank Arnold for giving me a chance to go out there. Because I needed it, I really needed it.
BEHAR: So we can just assume that you were getting into trouble as a juvenile, maybe some things. We won`t talk about it because -- but we can assume they were pretty serious things, right, Arnold?
SHAPIRO: Yes. There`s two types of juveniles. There are at-risk teens who are just beginning to get into trouble, and then there are kids who are kind of criminally active, and Steven fell into the latter category.
BEHAR: I see.
SHAPIRO: He could have wound up in prison had he not gone through this program. And by the way, just to clarify, we don`t pick the juveniles. The counselors, the police officers, the teachers, judges, principals, they`re the ones who decide which kids could benefit most from a program like this and send them through. We`re there to chronicle it.
BEHAR: OK. But Steve, we just watched a scene where an inmate went after you. Were you scared then? That day?
STEVEN: Well, I wasn`t really that scared, because I had the security guards. I know they ain`t just going to let them run up on me like that. But I wasn`t scared, you know? I mean, yes, I was paranoid that he was coming after me, but I wasn`t scared to the point I might get out of my chair--
BEHAR: So what did it take to get you scared straight? How much of that -- what did they have to do to you to scare you straight?
STEVEN: Well, to be honest with you, one of the few things that ever scared me in my life is when I knew I was going to be a father at the age of 17. That scared me.
BEHAR: That`s pretty scary.
SHAPIRO: I don`t think Steven was scared straight. I think he was reasoned straight. I think what the inmates said to him -- I think what the inmates said to him resonated. It didn`t happen with him right away.
There are juveniles who walk out of the prison and change 180 degrees that day. They`re so traumatized by what they see and realizing where they could wind up, that they just make a decision to change.
With Steven, it took a little bit longer. He had to think about it and reason it out. And when we went back to talk to him two months later and we said on a scale of 1 to 10, how much did this program affect you, he said infinity.
BEHAR: OK, so the old way that they did it in 1978 probably wouldn`t have worked on Steven.
OK, we`ll continue this in just a minute. Stay there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back and talking to my guests about the A&E series "Beyond Scared Straight."
Arnold, let me read you what the critics say. OK? So we can get the other side of this. The two Department of Justice officials recently said that scared straight programs are not only ineffective, but potentially harmful, quote/unquote, because it leads to more offending behavior. They cited a study of nine scared straight programs that found participants were 28 percent more likely to offend than those who didn`t do the program. What do you say to these critics, Arnold?
SHAPIRO: All of those studies were done 20 to 40 years ago on programs that no longer exist, programs that are different then than they are now, and it`s apples and oranges. They`re talking about programs that aren`t being done anymore like they were being done then, which makes the studies irrelevant.
And in all the literally hundreds of teachers and counselors and police officers I`ve run across doing this series, not one of them ever cited to me a kid who went through a program and wound up worse for it.
BEHAR: OK.
SHAPIRO: You really have to ask yourself this one quick thing: Why would all of these people, counselors, police officer, judges, et cetera, keep sending kids through these programs month after month and year after year if they weren`t seeing positive results? They`d be fools.
BEHAR: Hopefully that -- the new program that you`re talking about teaches these kids why they were acting out in the first place, so that they can correct that when they know the causative -- the reasons behind it.
All right--
SHAPIRO: That`s exactly what happens.
BEHAR: I want to play a scene from the show involving a 13-year-old. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is what happens. They come to prison and get their stuff stolen from them. You understand me? That means that somebody can come in here in this blind spot and bust your head wide open and take your shoes and leave you laying for dead, man. You want to be left that way?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Do you see how some people may feel it`s a little harsh when you watch that scene, Arnold? Kids are scared, I`ll give you that.
SHAPIRO: It`s not a little harsh if fear can turn you around. Unfortunately, with Shawn (ph), he was already in the system and he didn`t have a chance to put what he learned into practice. Because when he got out, he missed a court date from -- on a previous shoplifting charge and was taken into custody.
BEHAR: You`re talking about this kid?
SHAPIRO: This little boy. I just talked to his counselor this morning, because I knew you were going to ask me about this, and he said that Shawn was one of those people we got to too late. Even at 13, he was knocking people out at school, fighting kids, shoplifting, and he already had charges against him when he went through this program. He was prepared to go straight, but he then had to face the other charges that happened before he went through the program.
BEHAR: I see.
SHAPIRO: So it`s just -- it`s a sad situation.
BEHAR: Steven, let me end the segment with this. Steven, if you didn`t go through this program, where would you be today, do you think?
STEVEN: If I didn`t have Arnold`s help, honestly, I don`t even know where I would have been. Sometimes with some people, you know, some juveniles, some teens, we need that tough love. I mean, yes, I know it seems like it`s fear, you know, I know it seems like he`s kind of yelling, even though he`s young, but some people my age, we need that. You know, because some of us grew up without fathers, and you know, we just be wanting to have, you know, someone that we can turn to when things get tough that they tell us something inspiring, even if it have to be tough love. Even if it takes you crying a couple of tears, you know. Sometimes it takes that to get through to teens my age. You know, because the counseling programs, the counseling programs that they do have at school, they`re not as effective as scared straight is. Why? Because the counselors --
BEHAR: (inaudible), the problem -- I`m running out of time, honey.
The problems are deep. It`s very, very -- you know, it`s systemic, it`s sociological, it`s psychological. There`s a lot of issues you`re talking about.
And so--
SHAPIRO: This is a tool.
BEHAR: Hopefully this is a tool. "Beyond Scared Straight" airs Thursday nights on A&E. Good night, everybody.
END
