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Joy Behar Page
Sheen`s Kids Taken Away; Meredith Baxter`s Struggle & Triumph
Aired March 02, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Charlie Sheen`s twin sons were taken away by authorities last night after his ex-wife Brooke Mueller alleged that the actor threatened. Sheen acted calmly as he surrendered his children and it was all caught on tape. Watch the clip from RadarOnline.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLIE SHEEN, ACTOR: Watch your head, little man. Watch your head, little man. There you go. Come on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good bye.
SHEEN: We`ll see you soon, buddy.
We`ll see you soon, absolutely. I`ll see you soon, you have my word. Pop don`t lie. I`m ok, buddy.
That`s a little tight. I love you, little guy.
I will see you very soon. Trust me. Your dad don`t lie.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Here now to discuss Charlie`s latest custody troubles are Mark Geragos, noted defense attorney; Laura Markham, clinical psychologist and parenting expert; and Joey Bartolomeo, senior writer for "People" magazine.
Mark, let me start here. The kids were taken after ex-wife Mueller filed a temporary restraining order in which she alleges that Sheen said the following: "I will cut your head off, put it in a box, and send it to your mom." Ok? She also --
(CROSSTALK)
MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s usually going to be good enough for a judge to issue the restraining order.
BEHAR: Ok. But on top of that, she also says he punched her arm, spit at her feet, knocked her unconscious in 2009, sent anti-Semitic text, wanted to kill associates and she says he`s acting insane lately.
If these allegations are true, shouldn`t they have taken the children away from him?
GERAGOS: Well, you wonder why she -- if any of these allegations were true about the prior time -- why she waited two years to do it. My guess is that whoever prepared the restraining order knows that just the words alone were not going to be good enough so they have to kind of add on the domestic violence. That`s so that a judge would issue the restraining order.
There is still going to be a hearing and should they have taken the kids? I don`t know. I mean when you take a look at that tape, he looks perfectly in control to me. Although it you take a look at some of the other tapes where he`s on the "The Today Show" or GMA, he`s more entertaining, if you will.
BEHAR: He`s rambling and more erratic and rather funny, actually.
GERAGOS: He`s very funny. I have to tell you, I think he is extremely entertaining and extremely funny on those shows.
BEHAR: Yes, but you can be crazy and funny at the same time. Trust me, I know.
GERAGOS: Well --
BEHAR: Joey, these are very damming allegations. What did he say about it?
JOEY BARTOLOMEO, "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE: He sent a statement to "People" saying that they are all lies and this is something he said that he would never say anything like that about Mark Berg, his manager who she claims he sent these anti-Semitic remarks about. And he also brings up the point that he`s been clean now. He took these drug tests and he questions whether or not Brooke is sober these days.
And Brooke herself admitted that she fell off the wagon last week when she was on a trip to the Bahamas with Charlie and his two girlfriends.
BEHAR: Right. So is she able to take care of the kids? No, right?
BARTOLOMEO: I mean the kids it seems are with her mother right now. So, you know --
BEHAR: Good. Let`s hope the mother is not on something. The grandma. I mean I feel bad for these kids.
Charlie talked to RadarOnline right after the children were taken away. Let`s watch that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHEEN: My assistant told me that cops are on their way to serve me with a restraining order. I thought, ok. I never had before --
DYLAN HOWARD, SENIOR EXECUTIVE EDITOR, RADARONLINE: Do you know what for?
SHEEN: No, I saw it -- I haven`t read the whole thing. It`s retarded, freaking gibberish. It`s Brooke after all; predictable, transparent lunacy. It`s like she walks around with a bag of chaos and mayhem and just puts holes in and it just leaks wherever she goes. It`s just ugly and stupid and it`s predictable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Yes. So it`s he said, she said?
BARTOLOMEO: Exactly. And you know they`ve had this type of relationship for years now. He ended up going to jail for --
BEHAR: Right.
BARTOLOMEO: -- threatening her before and he`s had trouble with his ex-wife Denise Richards, same sort of allegations of things. But you look at him now and he does seem more level-headed. You saw him with the kids.
BEHAR: Well, he`s dry now.
BARTOLOMEO: Yes.
BEHAR: That`s right.
BARTOLOMEO: Yes. And he has nannies with the kids.
BEHAR: Yes. But the nannies are -- isn`t she a porn star?
BARTOLOMEO: No, no. Not his girlfriend.
BEHAR: Oh, not his --
BARTOLOMEO: There are nannies.
BEHAR: Oh, really, like a Mary Poppins nanny. Oh, good.
Laura, what about the kids in all of this?
LAURA MARKHAM, PARENTING EXPERT: Well, this just shows you really should have to have a license before you have kids. Proves that once again, you get a driver`s license before you drive a car. Kids are a little more important.
It`s clear that these parents both have severe issues. And, you know, the kids are caught in the middle of it. And what are toddlers -- these are babies. They are 24 months old. What do they need? They need stability, dependability. They need a relationship with someone who will be there, who will tuck them into bed at night. Somebody who`s not out partying.
These parents both seem to like to party. Now, if it`s true as mom claims, that grandma is very involved with the kids and has been very intimate since they were born, then they have a good relationship with her, let`s hope.
BEHAR: Right.
MARKHAM: And that`s who they`re with
BEHAR: How did they seem to you in a that tape?
MARKHAM: Well, who is to know whose car they are getting in? Are these strangers they`re getting into a car with?
BARTOLOMEO: The people came -- the police came to his house. He opened another --
(CROSSTALK)
MARKHAM: A two-year-old getting into a car with someone they have never seen like a police officer? Those kids -- I`m surprised they were not hysterical. It`s the middle of the night. How disorienting is that?
The whole thing for the kids is terrible.
BEHAR: Yes, it is.
MARKHAM: You know, we don`t know who`s telling the truth and the allegations.
BEHAR: But I mean at the end of the day, they have two parents, these kids. You know.
But Mark, let me ask you something. Who is better? The biological mother with the drug problem or the biological father who also has a drug problem but lives with a porn star and a marijuana model and allegedly abused the biological mother? Who`s the better parent here? Oh, boy
GERAGOS: If I`m the little boys, I`m voting for dad.
BEHAR: You`re voting for who?
GERAGOS: Dad. I want to be with dad.
BEHAR: With Charlie. Why is that?
GERAGOS: Yes, I`m with Charlie. If I`m little kids -- because I think he has got the nannies. I think he`s got some other people there. It looks to me in that tape that they just showed, looked to me like he had it under control.
He is blazingly intelligent, I mean and smart and funny and he looks like he`s a caring father. It doesn`t look to me like it`s a threatening environment there --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: What about the fact that he goes on these benders? He`s not exactly available. And what about the grandmother --
You forgot about Brooke`s mother. What about her?
GERAGOS: Yes, I know, but Brooke seems to be, at least from the outside as you`re speculating, she seems to be using them as kind of pawns here. He seems to at least by all accounts be concerned for them and he`s got the wherewithal to have somebody there in the house to take care of them and I think that`s important for stability.
BEHAR: Ok. Well, we have another opinion here, from the parenting expert.
GERAGOS: I`m sure you do.
BEHAR: Laura.
MARKHAMS: Well, you know, Dad wasn`t in their lives until January. These kids are 2 years old this month and he came back into their lives in January after being gone for at least a year. These kids didn`t even know him until then.
BEHAR: Maybe that`s why they said, "bye, daddy" --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: They don`t seem traumatized about separating from him at all.
MARKHAM: I mean that`s also according to Brooke, too. So we don`t really know that?
GERAGOS: Right.
BARTOLOMEO: He has -- when they were together and they were born, he was involved -- he does have a relationship with all of his kids. And we sat down with him and he said, he`s never done drugs with the kids in the house.
BEHAR: How nice of him.
BARTOLOMEO: But he does know that that is not the thing to do and he does know how to sort of control --
BEHAR: Compartmentalize?
BARTOLOMEO: Yes. I mean as we --
BEHAR: He certainly does know not to do that because he has showed up on the set sober and does his job.
BARTOLOMEO: Yes.
GERAGOS: Right.
BEHAR: Go ahead, Mark.
GERAGOS: I was just going to say, also when you look at that tape, if this is somebody who, by her accounts, has only been in their lives for, what, 60 days? Those kids look awfully attached to him. They know it`s daddy. They are sharing the apple.
You have to take with a little grain of salt whether or not who is telling you this information and what it is. That tape that you`re showing right there to me looks like a 2-year-old who`s with his dad, who loves his dad.
BEHAR: All right. Well, let`s watch Sheen talk to ABC`s 20/20 just about that point, the children. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDREA CANNING, ABC NEWS HOST: You have these beautiful, beautiful children.
SHEEN: Yes.
CANNING: Do you ever worry about them and the things that they have been through and how it will affect them?
SHEEN: I can worry about it or I can say, hey, kids, your dad is a rock star. Look at his experiences. Look at what he survived. Bang. There are some your lessons. But the real lessons are going to be in the future.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: He`s a rock star. He certainly has a nice, strong ego, the guy. He`s a rock star and he`s in love with Charlie Sheen, he`s high on Charlie.
MARKHAM: That answer was so narcissistic. That is all about Charlie. It`s nothing about the children`s experience. He was asked, are your kids going to have an issue with what they are experiencing? And he said no, because I`m a star.
BEHAR: Yes, because your dad`s a rock star.
MARKHAM: So it`s sad.
BEHAR: I know.
MARKHAM: But you know, the guy needs help.
BEHAR: He needs help.
MARKHAM: Mom needs help. Those kids need a stable, loving environment.
BEHAR: Yes. Maybe they could go to Mark`s house. Mark Geragos, you want the kids?
GERAGOS: I`ll take them on a weekend.
BEHAR: Ok. Thank you, everybody. We`ll be right back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up next on the JOY BEHAR SHOW, "Family Ties" mom, Meredith Baxter, talks with Joy about her struggles with domestic abuse, alcoholism, and coming out as a lesbian.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mom, maybe you can help me out? I need to practice solving people`s problems before I publish my first column.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, is there anything you`d like to talk about? Anything bothering you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I`m hungry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Besides that, anything else?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m thirsty, too.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: America fell in love with Meredith Baxter as the quintessential TV mom on "Family Ties" but in her new book, "Untied: A memoir of family fame and plundering", she reveals that behind the scenes she struggled with alcohol, breast cancer, her sexuality and abuse.
So please welcome to the show Meredith Baxter.
MEREDITH BAXTER, ACTRESS, AUTHOR, "UNTIED": Hey.
BEHAR: It`s nice to have you here really. I`m a big fan.
BAXTER: Thank you.
BEHAR: And we`ve watched you over the years and you`re just wonderful with comedy and everything else.
BAXTER: Thank you so much.
BEHAR: Yes.
BAXTER: I`m really glad to be here.
BEHAR: Yes. And I mean, you`ve had so much trauma in your life.
BAXTER: Ah, go on.
BEHAR: And -- but look at you, you look fantastic. And you`re happy now?
BAXTER: I -- I am -- I am joyous today.
BEHAR: Yes.
BAXTER: I really am.
BEHAR: Isn`t it nice to be in the -- well, I don`t know how old you are. Let`s say --
BAXTER: I`m 63.
BEHAR: In your 60s and be happy?
BAXTER: Yes.
Yes, because nothing was really going to change the direction of my life unless I finally did something about it, which was daunting to me because I was waiting for someone else to change it.
BEHAR: Yes the -- the Cinderella complex, someone is going to save me? Yes it doesn`t work like that.
BAXTER: No. And it wasn`t prince charming either.
BEHAR: It certainly wasn`t in the form of David Birney.
BAXTER: No.
BEHAR: He was -- he was -- he sounds like he had a lot of issues, this guy. I mean, in your book you talk about that he was emotionally abusive and he was also physically abusive to you.
BAXTER: Yes.
BEHAR: So tell me about the first time that he struck you.
BAXTER: It was before we were married. And we were talking about television and he always had a very philosophical, almost Shakespearean approach to a lot those things. He has very lofty, not undesirable, views of what television should or could be. And at one point I think, I just said -- and -- and he was complaining about "Bridget Loves Birney", our -- the show that we were doing --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
BAXTER: -- not being up to those standards and I said David it`s television.
BEHAR: Yes.
BAXTER: And he knocked me down.
BEHAR: He now -- he hit you for that?
BAXTER: Yes.
BEHAR: Where were you?
BAXTER: Standing in the driveway outside of his rented house in Beverly Glenn.
BEHAR: And that`s all you said, it`s television?
BAXTER: Yes.
BEHAR: Well, so he had a little anger issues?
BAXTER: It seemed, yes.
BEHAR: It -- it appears. And this other time that he hit you was in a car?
BAXTER: Uh-huh.
BEHAR: He reached back -- I was reading you were in a Datsun -- and he reached back and smacked you?
BAXTER: That`s his Datsun Z. We were -- we were driving and I -- I made a comment that -- I can see how this would have been hurtful, I said, that we were going to be the modern day version, basically, of his parents, which was a very strong, scary foreboding guy and a quiet, mousey martyr- ish woman.
A part I saw myself falling into.
BEHAR: Yes.
BAXTER: And it was whack. And I was wearing aviator glasses, kind of like Gloria Steinem, it broke, just broke against my -- my eye, sliced through the lid and sliced the cornea and it just blew up.
BEHAR: There -- there`s a couple things about that incident that are interesting. I mean, horrible also, that you were wearing Gloria Steinem glasses. I just think it`s so ironic.
BAXTER: Well, I was doing my best in my smallest way.
BEHAR: Yes, you know what I mean.
BAXTER: Yes.
BEHAR: And you write it that way that they were Gloria Steinem glasses.
BAXTER: Yes.
BEHAR: What year was this? The `90s?
BAXTER: I would say -- no, no, no.
BEHAR: `80s?
BAXTER: Oh this was probably before that. I imagine this was late `70s.
BEHAR: Oh that long ago? Oh my God, time flies.
BAXTER: Through `70s perhaps.
BEHAR: Yes.
But I mean, I was thinking, you know, like looking back on that, what do you think Gloria would have done in that moment?
BAXTER: She`d say take those off. You don`t deserve to wear those glasses.
BEHAR: No, what would she have done to him?
BAXTER: Oh well, he would have needed hospitalization probably I think.
BEHAR: There you go -- that`s right. That`s right.
But so you -- so the first incident you weren`t even married to him and then you still went through with the marriage. So what were you thinking that -- why would you marry him?
BAXTER: Well, a cogent question.
You know, all of the decisions that I made were based on -- and controlled by a belief system that I had, based on things that happened in my childhood --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
BAXTER: -- where I decided that I was unloved, unlovable, and -- and really had no value, that I couldn`t expect really anything from the world along those lines. And consequently, it -- it`s that`s -- everybody prescribed everything that followed.
BEHAR: Yes.
BAXTER: And no decisions that I made, no relationships I went into had -- you know, had any free will to them except as they were governed by that kind of thinking. And you know, so I got in a relationship and I wasn`t looking for anything, really, except love me.
BEHAR: Just love me?
BAXTER: Take -- take care of me.
BEHAR: Yes.
BAXTER: You know solve my problems.
And I know -- I knew -- I -- I wasn`t so much looking for love with David because I don`t know if that was going to be available. But I didn`t think that was very smart. He made it pretty clear he didn`t think I was very smart. I didn`t think I was a good mother and he didn`t seem to think I was a good mother.
So I thought, oh ok, I`m comfortable here.
BEHAR: I see.
BAXTER: I know what you`re going to expect.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Seemed familiar.
BAXTER: It seemed very familiar.
BEHAR: From the -- from the early years.
BAXTER: And so that`s where I went --
BEHAR: So your mother and father must have played a part in that.
BAXTER: Yes, yes, they did. We are all sum of our past experiences.
BEHAR: That`s right.
BAXTER: The difference was because many other kids are growing up in far worst situations than I did. They weren`t telling themselves stories necessarily. They weren`t -- you know, I -- I took it personally. I thought it was all about me, which made me think that I was a -- a horrible person and not to be valued. And because -- it`s -- it`s a scary place to be because I really thought I was terminally damaged.
Because of that thinking I didn`t know how to connect. I didn`t know how to be with people. I didn`t know how to make friends. I didn`t have any friends.
BEHAR: Yes.
BAXTER: Because my mother didn`t have any friends. I didn`t know -- I know what that kind of thing looked like.
BEHAR: We`re you friends with your brothers?
BAXTER: Yes, but we weren`t together. I was very close with my brother Brian and less so with Dick because he was the oldest but it was -- we were just, I mean, we were all pretty lonely.
BEHAR: Ok. I want to talk so much more to you today.
BAXTER: Ok.
BEHAR: So get comfortable here.
BAXTER: Ok.
BEHAR: We have much more with Meredith -- Meredith Baxter on the way. Meredith Baxter.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Meredith Baxter talking about her autobiography "Untied". Now, tell me about this traumatic moment in Venice with David Birney. You were pregnant with twins.
BAXTER: I was pregnant with the twins; I was about four months pregnant with a bladder infection. And my (INAUDIBLE) and we were at a -- we had a pretty nice time in Italy, actually, and we were in Venice at Harry`s Bar having a late night dinner. It was pouring rain, quite a distance from our hotel. And we were talking about prospective names for the baby and I think he suggested Elizabeth that he was talking about and I said, what about Lorca.
BEHAR: Lorca?
BAXTER: I was reading the poetry of Federico Garcia Lorca at the moment and I just thought -- I thought it was a musical name --
BEHAR: Lorca.
BAXTER: -- and in a heartbeat he got livid.
BEHAR: He started yelling?
BAXTER: No, he didn`t yell. He just said that was a perfect example of how stupid and uneducated I was; that Lorca wasn`t a queen`s name, like Elizabeth; that I was stupid for having put this out there. And he got up and walked away from the table.
And, you know, I was thinking, ok, maybe I shouldn`t -- I should just keep my ideas to myself. And I sat there and waited for him to come back. And I finished my dinner and he didn`t come back and I paid the check and I found out he`s gone. He left me at the restaurant.
BEHAR: In the rain? In Venice, you didn`t speak Italian?
BAXTER: No. So I had to make my way back to the hotel at 11:00 at night in the pouring rain. And I didn`t know where my hotel was and what I felt was not anger that I wish I had been in touch with. I just felt abject shame. Oh, I`m someone you leave. I`m someone to be left.
BEHAR: Yes. The self-esteem was at the bottom at that point?
BAXTER: Later in the writing of it --
BEHAR: Yes.
BAXTER: -- I was sobbing at the typewriter, at my computer and just really the sense brought me right back into that horrible place, that sense of devastation and abandonment.
BEHAR: Took you right back?
BAXTER: Yes.
BEHAR: Also crying for the girl you left behind, too.
BAXTER: I didn`t do that for a long time.
BEHAR: But first of all, you were the one who was reading Garcia Lorca, not him. You were the one who was the poetry girl, not him. He called you stupid.
BAXTER: No. He was very well educated and he knows his poetry inside and out, I`m sure.
BEHAR: He just had a desire to put you down as much as possible.
BAXTER: Well, it seemed to help.
BEHAR: And you were a match because you believed it.
BAXTER: Yes. We were made for each other in that sense.
It`s like no mistake that we wound up together. He could not have been with a woman with more self-esteem and I would have known how to be with someone who was very kind to me.
BEHAR: And yet you stayed with him how long?
BAXTER: 15 years.
BEHAR: 15 years with this guy but on one Thanksgiving you just snapped. What happened?
BAXTER: I didn`t snap. I wish, you know, snapping would have been wonderfully cathartic. It was a Thanksgiving and I hear a lot of breakups occur at Thanksgiving. I don`t really know why. And he was, you know, yelling at how -- he wasn`t yelling but he didn`t have to yell, that what are we going to do next year so it`s not a disaster like this year.
I didn`t know what had been disastrous about this year. It has just been difficult like it always had. I was suddenly crying and my daughter Eva just leaned into me and said, "What are you waiting for?"
BEHAR: "What are you waiting for?" How old was she?
BAXTER: I believe 19 or 20, back home from college. And I said something like, "There`s not going to be a next time."
BEHAR: This is Eva from a previous marriage?
BAXTER: Yes. She was an older child.
BEHAR: And you said what?
BAXTER: There`s not going to be a next time.
BEHAR: You did.
BAXTER: And I had no idea where that voice came from, or where in me -- there was no confidence behind that. It was just, like, ok now that`s how it works. What is going to happen next?
BEHAR: Uh-huh. Did you scare yourself when you said that?
BAXTER: Oh.
BEHAR: Because you knew it was true.
BAXTER: I knew it was true. You know, so many people have asked me, why didn`t you leave? You know, you don`t know you can leave.
BEHAR: You`re trapped in there.
BAXTER: I was trapped at the limitations of what I thought about myself and what I thought I was capable of.
BEHAR: Also, if you are raised in a certain way, that`s all you know. You don`t know that there`s another way out.
BAXTER: Yes.
BEHAR: That`s it.
Ok. We`ll have more with Meredith Baxter after a quick break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
A.J. HAMMER, HLN HOST, "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT": Tonight on "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT", the inside story behind Charlie Sheen` big custody war. Sheen`s frantic bid to get his young sons back.
At 11:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific on HLN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what you want to disclose is --
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re here to say it.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know what`s the appropriate etiquette here?
MEREDITH BAXTER: I just wanted to say that I`m a lesbian, and it was a late -- later in life recognition of that fact.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That was Meredith Baxter coming out on "The Today Show" just two years ago. Many people were shocked by the revelation. I was just shocked she did it so early in the morning. I would have waited until noon, myself. But that`s just me.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: She`s back with me now. Wasn`t it nice to say I`m a lesbian? That must have been--
BAXTER: No, it was not.
BEHAR: No, it was not? Why not?
BAXTER: I was waiting for him to say it.
BEHAR: Oh, really?
BAXTER: Like, when he said, you have something to tell us, it was like -- well, go on, Matt, do I have to say this? No. As I was watching this, I thought -- I remembered, I thought I was going to wet myself. It was just horrible.
BEHAR: What made you decide to do it on television like that? Because that`s before the book, so.
BAXTER: Well, I sort of -- I didn`t decide. It was sort of the same way I got married, Howard.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Howard is your publicist. People on this show always refer back to their publicist.
BAXTER: May you always have a publicist in the wings. Howard was there to help me deal with the fact that I had been on a lesbian cruise, and there were some rag sheets, tabloids were coming and asking questions, and there were -- I knew from just past experience they were going to make up stories with a kernel of truth and elaborate on something that became their own, and they would run with it and I would have no voice in it.
BEHAR: I see.
BAXTER: And Howard said that the only way to claim it was to come in and usurp -- you sort of beat them at their game.
BEHAR: And you did it?
BAXTER: Yes, I did it.
BEHAR: So was it a relief?
BAXTER: Not at that time. But as soon as we left the building, Nancy was sitting in the wings--
BEHAR: Nancy your present girlfriend?
BAXTER: My--
BEHAR: Your darling?
BAXTER: My darling.
BEHAR: Yes.
BAXTER: As soon as we left the building, it was -- and it was quiet, it was raining, we were under a huge umbrella. It was slight, misty rain, it was very cold. And we just walked and it was so peaceful. It was like, I did not have any burdens anymore.
BEHAR: That`s so nice.
BAXTER: Yes.
BEHAR: It`s awful to have to keep a secret like that.
BAXTER: It wasn`t even a very extensive secret. It was like, you know, they all know now. It doesn`t matter now.
BEHAR: You write in the book that you had your first sexual relationship with a woman in 1992, right?
BAXTER: 1992, 1993, yes.
BEHAR: And then you married -- so you had this, OK, you might have thought to yourself, hey, maybe I like ladies. But then--
BAXTER: I never thought that. I cannot explain so much -- you know, I adored the woman so much. She was such a good friend. But it seemed like just the next natural step in our relationship. But it was not very sexual to me. So -- and I think I thought, well, there`s this guy over here kind of paying attention to me, and I`m desperate for someone to pay attention to me, so how about you?
BEHAR: So you married a guy? You got married another time then?
BAXTER: Yes.
BEHAR: And that didn`t last, though, right?
BAXTER: It couldn`t have lasted.
BEHAR: No.
BAXTER: I had learned nothing about why I got into relationships. I didn`t know that I was run by this engine of take care of me. I didn`t ever see what my part was, that I, too, had had that agenda. And I knew everything about him that I needed to know. You know, the great thing about this guy, he didn`t hit me. He didn`t denigrate me.
BEHAR: Yeah.
BAXTER: I was his.
BEHAR: So he was, compared to the other one, he was great.
BAXTER: He was great. Everything I needed.
BEHAR: Yeah. OK, so then you divorced him?
BAXTER: Yes.
BEHAR: And then in 2003, things changed for you sexually. What happened then?
BAXTER: You know, a woman moved into the guest house, my guest house, and I live in a private street with a -- it`s a gated house, not some big thing, it`s a modest little house. I knew she was gay, and it just -- you know, I just started being very aware of where she was all the time.
BEHAR: So you thought (ph) yourself attracted to a woman.
BAXTER: Yeah, I had never -- you know, no penny dropped and went. I didn`t have any label for it. It was like -- where is she? Oh, home, OK, good to see she`s home. And you know, we`d go to movies together, we`d take walks together or something. And I had -- I went away on a job for a short bit, and we texted each other and became decidedly --
BEHAR: Romantic?
BAXTER: Yes. It was -- there were provocative texts. And it was like, I was, you know, she was 25 years younger than me. I was like, this -- this--
BEHAR: Men do it all the time, big deal.
(LAUGHTER)
BAXTER: It was a big deal to me.
BEHAR: I know, but only because you`re female. You know? Every guy who is 50 loves a 25-year-old girl, and they go along with it, if he`s got money.
BAXTER: Oh, this is a whole other conversation.
(CROSSTALK)
BAXTER: I don`t even know how to have this one.
BEHAR: You know, I have to ask one question about gay women, because I know a lot of women who were in your situation, who were married -- not a lot, but several, though. They were married for several years, and then at some point, they realized that they are gay.
BAXTER: Right.
BEHAR: And two things. First of all, were you faking it with the guys in bed or not?
BAXTER: No.
BEHAR: You were not? So you were enjoying it?
BAXTER: It wasn`t a lot to fake because it wasn`t always -- no, I wasn`t faking it. I guess that`s all I`ll say.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: OK, we can read between the sheets.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: And then what do you think is the truth of all that in retrospect, like you`re straight at one point with guys, then you`re gay with women. Is it that you were gay all along? Do you think?
BAXTER: I can`t speak for anybody else, because I`ve heard many people talk about that kind of story--
BEHAR: I was just curious about that.
BAXTER: And people would say to me, you were living a lie. Which I truly wasn`t.
(CROSSTALK)
BAXTER: I was so un-self-examined. I was just looking to keep my head above the water. Every day my mantra living with David was, I can live through this. I can live through this.
BEHAR: Yes.
BAXTER: Because I was just fighting the pain all the time. I never stopped to say, what do you want, Meredith? What`s going on with you? What would you like? It never occurred to me. So I just sort of did what I watched as a child. You know, we just learn from those around us. And that`s what I saw.
BEHAR: That`s right.
BAXTER: So that`s what I went to.
BEHAR: And yet you were very successful in your career.
BAXTER: Again, a totally different subject. Had nothing to do with my private life. I really learned to compartmentalize, that when I go to work, home life didn`t exist. So I could be happy and constructive and creative and a contributor and they liked me, and I was free to be who I wanted to be.
BEHAR: OK. Now I have a little surprise for you.
BAXTER: What`s that?
BEHAR: Michael Gross, remember him?
BAXTER: Yes.
BEHAR: Your co-star on "Family Ties" is on the phone now.
BAXTER: Michael?
BEHAR: Hello, Michael.
MICHAEL GROSS: Hi, Meredith, I swear to God I`m not stalking you.
(CROSSTALK)
BAXTER: That was going to be my question.
GROSS: They invited me.
BEHAR: We invited him to come on to talk to you.
GROSS: And as she never returns phone calls, this is my only chance to do it.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: You know, the old Meredith Baxter would have returned a call in two seconds. Now she says, maybe I`ll return it.
BAXTER: No, the truth is, if it was Michael, I would never return it. I love this man. I love this man. He was my dearest, dearest friend for seven years intensely on doing "Family Ties."
GROSS: And vice versa, my dear.
BAXTER: And he and his wife Elsa (ph) and Nancy and I have been out several times together and we`ve done work together since then. He is the dearest, most loving, most supportive guy.
BEHAR: At the time, though, you were friends and working together, "Family Ties" was on the air, and you were with Birney at the time, right?
BAXTER: Yes.
BEHAR: So, Michael, did you detect any kind of unhappiness? Did Meredith display any tension at home? Anything? Did you pick it up?
GROSS: No. She was very good at hiding who she was and what was going on. And part of that was my complete -- I was complicit in that, in that I`m a clueless human being at times, and so I wasn`t looking for anything. Because in a sense, I had bought the PR. The perfect Hollywood marriage, they were being interviewed all the time. This is a Hollywood marriage that works, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I chose to believe the best.
BEHAR: Well, what happened when she told you?
GROSS: When -- are you asking me what happened when I learned?
BEHAR: Yes. When she broke down and told you, what happened?
GROSS: Well, no one could have been more surprised than I. And -- because Meredith is and still is a very private person, and so I was -- I was shocked. And a little appalled because I think you tend -- I see this bright, intelligent, funny, talented woman, and I think, oh, OK, she`s in control of her life.
BEHAR: Yeah. It looks like that on the surface a lot of times. You just don`t know what is going on behind closed doors, do we?
BAXTER: No. Poor baby. And it was like the deluge. You know how you`re just fine, you`re doing all fine all the time until someone touches your cheek and says "honey," and I was gone. I was gone.
BEHAR: It`s always the kindness that someone shows that makes you break down.
GROSS: Meredith, I am so glad it was I, to be honest with you, because, you know, it began, I think, to forge our relationship in a different way. We were confidants about certain things, but that was the beginning of the turning of the corner, and we`ve been close ever since. And I cherish this relationship.
BAXTER: Oh, I do, too.
BEHAR: Thank you, Michael, for calling in.
BAXTER: Oh, thank you. I love you so much, Michael.
GROSS: Where-- Meredith, that goes for me, too. Where are you going to be tomorrow so I can call you again?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: And will you answer, will you return the calls to him?
BAXTER: No.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: I`ve got to go, Michael. Thanks so much for calling in.
BAXTER: Thanks, honey.
BEHAR: So lovely to meet you.
BAXTER: Give my love to Elsa.
GROSS: Will do.
BEHAR: Really lovely to meet you, Meredith.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I mean, we did meet once before, years and years ago, briefly.
BAXTER: Yeah. I didn`t think you would remember.
BEHAR: Of course I remember. You`re a big star. I remember. Thanks for doing this. Good luck with the book. It`s a terrific book.
BAXTER: Thank you.
BEHAR: It`s a great read. Everybody wants to read it.
BAXTER: Great, and I hope you do.
BEHAR: And they will.
OK, Meredith`s new book is called "Untied: A Memoir of Family, Fame, and Floundering." We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: At her heaviest, Ruby Gettinger weighed in a life-threatening 715 pounds. Since her hit (inaudible) show "Ruby" premiered in 2008, she`s shed an astounding 400 pounds. Ruby`s weight loss journey has inspired countless others to take charge of their own health, even as she faces challenges and setbacks along the way. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUBY GETTINGER, STAR, "RUBY": In the past, I didn`t even know I`d gained 100 pounds, because I was wearing those big, huge tent dress. Now I can fit in capris and jeans and shorts and stuff that`s tighter. I can tell I`m gaining weight instead of losing. I`m just sick of this. I`m sick of myself. You know what I mean?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: OK. With me now is the very charming Ruby Gettinger.
Ruby, welcome to the show.
GETTINGER: Thank you for having me.
BEHAR: Let`s start with the loss rather than the gaining.
GETTINGER: I love you.
BEHAR: I know.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: It`s nice. You went from 716 to 302.
GETTINGER: Yes.
BEHAR: How did you do that?
GETTINGER: I just finally made up my mind to do it. Plus, the doctor said I was going to die if I didn`t.
BEHAR: Of course.
GETTINGER: And even though they say that, it`s something that controls you and you really don`t know why. This thing controlled me forever. And I finally had to get in my head, you`re going to fight this again, once again. Because I`ve dieted my entire life. I`ve felt like I`ve gone on this diet, lost this weight. But this time, I said you`re going to do this and you`re going to find out the real reason behind this, if it`s just eating, if it`s exercise, or is it something more. Never knowing I was going to find out it was so emotional.
BEHAR: What was the phrase you just used, it takes charge of you?
GETTINGER: It totally controls me.
BEHAR: It controls you, what does that mean?
GETTINGER: Like you just said, it takes charge of your life. It`s like everything else in my life I had control over. It`s like, I could do anything I wanted to. I put my mind to something, I do it. But this one thing, I could not do. It was like, it totally took over my life. I was 716 pounds. I was 300 in high school. I was 400, 500--
BEHAR: So your whole life you`ve been fighting this?
GETTINGER: Forever. And I`m looking in the mirror, it`s so deceiving, too. This -- I can`t really explain it because I`m still learning about it. But this addiction is so deceiving, because you`re looking in a mirror and just like anorexic people, they look in the mirror and they see themselves fat. I would look in a mirror and I would go, I`m not that big, at 716. But I saw myself -- the first time I saw myself on video, I was like, oh, my gosh. Who is that? I talked about myself in the third person. I couldn`t believe that was me.
BEHAR: So the mirror didn`t do it but the video did it?
GETTINGER: Oh, my gosh. I was just shocked.
BEHAR: That`s interesting. Why do you think that is?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: This was like watching a third person.
GETTINGER: It really was. I was going, where is her leg? I didn`t know I wobbled until I saw it. I was wobbling and I had no idea I was doing that until I saw myself on the video.
BEHAR: I see. You know, I have to say, I mean, if the doctors tell you you`re 700 pounds, that`s way too heavy. The taxing on your heart, your kidneys, all your organs is brutal. Why not just get that gastric bypass or the lap band? Why bother with dieting at this point?
GETTINGER: Well, back then, when I started thinking, you know, it came out and you started hearing of people doing that, it was very expensive. There was no way -- I couldn`t even get insurance. I was working. They would not allow me to have insurance because they said I was a health risk, and this is before the diabetes started coming into my body.
And when I started doing this, I had always told people, if that`s what you have to do, if it means saving your life, do it. Do whatever you have to do to save your life. But I didn`t want to do that yet. I wanted to see if I could beat this, only because I kept hearing people -- and especially a doctor, when I went to get my heart checked, just to see if it is OK, this doctor said to me, you can`t fit on the table. You have to be 350 pounds. And I`m sitting there going, well, how do you have surgery if you can`t fit on a table? That kind of surgery, and you can`t take my blood pressure.
BEHAR: Well, you probably can`t.
GETTINGER: Well, they are giving surgery to people -- that surgery they give to people who are 400 and 500 pounds. The guy said to me --
BEHAR: Really?
GETTINGER: Because I went, I`m just going to go on a diet. He said, you know what, I found out in my profession that there`s no way people like you can lose weight. And the best thing to do is have surgery. That made me so mad, because I was like -- because I`m pretty strong --
BEHAR: Well, you`ve lost weight. You know how to do it.
GETTINGER: Right. I know.
BEHAR: But then you still -- you gained back 60 of those--
GETTINGER: We`re not talking about that, right?
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: We`re about halfway through, so I had to get to it.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: But you lost all the weight and then you gained 60, which is a drop in the bucket really when you think from 716, I mean, to 302, now you went up to what, 362?
GETTINGER: Yes. And it scared me so bad because it was happening and I was blaming the scale. This is how you`re in such denial, you don`t even realize it. But it was happening to me and I kept saying, it`s the scales. It`s not me. I know what I`m doing, but I started -- you know, I started going through emotional stuff because I`m trying to find out the memories of childhood, and dreams started happening to me where I`m having these nightmares that are horrible, and I`m going back to snack eating. But I didn`t go buy the Krispy Kreme donuts, I didn`t go back to candy. I was going back to eating sugar-free stuff, fat-free stuff, and that`s what started making me gain the weight.
BEHAR: Oh, that`s interesting for people to hear.
GETTINGER: Hear me loud and clear, that will make you gain weight.
BEHAR: So the stuff that they sell, the sugar-free, fat-free, why not?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Why does it make you heavy?
GETTINGER: Because you`re sitting there, you`re eating more of it thinking you`re getting away with something, but it`s the fat and it`s the sugars, it`s the same --
BEHAR: It`s the calories.
GETTINGER: Oh, it`s loaded with calories.
(CROSSTALK)
GETTINGER: Exactly. And when it says -- you also have to look at the portion size, too. I`m sitting there thinking this is 100 calories, this little chocolate thing. There`s two portions in this chocolate thing. There was 200. I`m like, what are you doing?
BEHAR: OK, let`s take a break. We`ll have more with Ruby when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GETTINGER: I mean, what person will go out with me?
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You want them to be attracted to you, but you don`t want them just to ask you out and want to be with you for your looks anyways.
GETTINGER: I know. But I want a guy to like me for who I am, every which way.
They (inaudible) they say you have a beautiful face, but I wish you`d lose weight.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But that`s not all men.
GETTINGER: I don`t believe you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: I`m back with Ruby Gettinger, star of the Style Network show "Ruby." And joining us is Ramani Durvasula, a psychologist featured on "Thintervention." Welcome to the show, Dr. Ramani.
Ruby, what is your history with men?
GETTINGER: I`ve had one boyfriend, and I wouldn`t say it had any passion to it or anything, but he was the one guy that crossed over. I was with him for eight and a half years.
BEHAR: What do you mean he crossed over?
GETTINGER: All these guys would say you have a beautiful face. If you`d just lose your weight, you`re a great girl, but nobody would ever sit there and play that role, which he really didn`t, but we really were strictly platonic more than --
BEHAR: Yeah.
GETTINGER: -- passion (inaudible).
BEHAR: It`s tough to find a guy when you`re overweight.
GETTINGER: You can find a guy that would take you for a booty call, where it`s like let`s go home for one night and that`s it, but I am not going to do that. I want a relationship. I want a guy like that.
BEHAR: I see. What challenges, Dr. Ramani, what challenges do overweight people face in the dating world? It must be tough, right?
DR. RAMANI DURVASULA, PSYCHOLOGIST: It is tough. I mean, dating is difficult at any weight, but certainly when a person is struggling with overweight in a culture that overvalues being overthin, it makes it all the more difficult. And I really think that Ruby highlights some really important issues about you really want a relationship, you want someone to care about you for you, and you feel like it`s hard when you`re judging yourself harshly on your appearance. So there are a lot of challenges that I think an overweight person faces in an already difficult swimming pool of dating.
BEHAR: Right. You know, you mentioned in the other segment about repressed memories coming back to you. I could ask both of you this question. How much of this morbid obesity have to do with a trauma in childhood? Because it seems to me that all of that adipose tissue is to keep people away. Did someone attack you or molest you?
GETTINGER: I don`t remember any of that yet. But I know that my dreams are telling me that somebody is always trying to kill me by strangulation or poison. And there`s -- everybody there that I know is in the room but they don`t see it, and I`m mad at them but I`m like--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You keep having the same dream?
GETTINGER: There`s always different ways of trying to kill me. Somebody is always trying to kill me.
BEHAR: So it`s possible, doctor, that she has a repressed memory which is causing this food addiction? Yes?
DURVASULA: The work on repressed memories is very controversial. What I would prefer to think about is that there`s some really difficult and dark emotional issues that can lead someone to eat in an out-of-control way or eat in a way that`s abusive toward their body. Now there`s definitely a literature that supports the idea that people who have been sexually abused in childhood are very much vulnerable to abusing their bodies in a variety of ways, whether that`s drug abuse, alcohol abuse, or food. And so, again, food becomes inappropriately used as a tool of emotional management. That`s not what it`s designed to do. But let me tell you, it does a heck of a job to numb us and distance us from other people, which makes dating hard, it makes intimacy hard.
BEHAR: There`s nothing like a lot of food to put you into a coma.
GETTINGER: Oh my gosh.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You just fall asleep and then you don`t have to deal.
GETTINGER: And the first thing a child medicates with and gets their hands on is what, food.
BEHAR: And you have to eat a lot. Every day you have to do it. It`s not like marijuana or even drinking, where it`s sort of optional in a way. Food is not optional.
GETTINGER: And food is so comforting. It`s soothing.
BEHAR: I know, we all love it.
GETTINGER: Unfortunately, I hate it. I love it, but I hate it.
BEHAR: Thank you very much, ladies. You can catch the season premiere of "Ruby" Sunday at 8 p.m. on Style. Good night, everybody.
END
