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Joy Behar Page

Interview With Michael Moore; Interview With Nancy Grace

Aired March 29, 2011 - 22:00   ET


ROSEANNE BARR, HLN GUESS HOST: Greetings, earthlings. Before we begin tonight`s performance, just a quick programming note: the role of Joy Behar will be played by me, Roseanne Barr, tonight and if you don`t like it (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, what happens when the outspoken Roseanne Barr sits down with the equally outspoken Michael Moore? Find out when the two talk about all the day`s big stories.

And Rob Lowe says a young Charlie Sheen was a nerd and a rebel; I guess we know which side won out. Plus, HLN`s Nancy Grace gets Roseanne caught up with the latest on the Casey Anthony murder trial.

That and more starting right now.

BARR: Hello, everybody. I`m Roseanne Barr in for Joy.

Tonight, let`s start with President Obama and Libya. The President addressed the nation last night about our resent military intervention.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Some nations may be able to turn a blind eye to atrocities in other countries. The United States of America is different. As President, I refuse to wait for the images of slaughter and mass graves before taking action.


BARR: Here now with his take on this and much more is award-winning film maker, Michael Moore. Hi, Michael.


BARR: Thank you so much for being here.

MOORE: Oh, now. It`s great to be here. I`ve enjoyed for a long time.

BARR: Well, you know; what did you think of the President`s speech? I can`t wait to hear what you`ve got to say.

MOORE: Well, you know, I start from this premise. I believe he is a man with a good heart. And I will count as one of the greatest days of my life the day he was elected President of the United States, something I would never think I would live to see in my lifetime in this country.

BARR: A person of color?

MOORE: Not only a person of color, but someone who was so close to many of the things that I felt. It`s so often we have to compromise and you know, even for the Democrat who`s running and I felt much less of a compromise with Barack Obama. So, I start there.

What I think about the United States military and our recent actions over the last decade in Iraq and Afghanistan and the way that our troops, sons and daughters, citizens of this country, were used. Were used -- not to defend us, which is what they signed up for, which they need and deserve all the credit and support and financial support and everything.

BARR: It`s all there with you, yes.

MOORE: For what? Anybody who would do that, because what they`re saying is they`re willing to give their life so that you and I can live.

BARR: That`s exactly right.

MOORE: What greater gift really is there to give any of us human beings? So, to take a group of young people who sign up for that, and who know that they may die as a result of signing, but to do it because they want to be there if we may need to be defended.

To use them for something that had absolutely nothing to do with our self-defense and to use them essentially was a lie. There were no weapons of mass destruction. There was no threat from Saddam Hussein.

BARR: And it wasn`t just one lie either.

MOORE: It was many lies. So they kept repeating -- they kept changing the lie and restructuring the lie. And here we are now today with four thousand plus soldiers dead in Iraq. Another I don`t know what the statistic is today in Afghanistan. It`s about -- but with all the coalition troops, it`s you know, over 1,000 and I think that --

BARR: That`s not even to mention the number of wounded.

MOORE: The wounded and the people that are coming back with PTSD and all these other issues.

BARR: Yes, the terrible cost of that lie.

MOORE: It`s a terrible cost. And I don`t mean financial cost, I mean the human cost; the people who were willing to die so that we could be free. Man, oh man.

So, because of this horrific violation of our American values and of human values, I think I`ve said this now for some time, we need -- we, the United States and especially our military needs to go to the time-out room. We really -- we really shouldn`t be dropping bombs or invading anybody else for some time to come because we`ve lost --

BARR: But Michael, what about like you know, I mean, just as we were in one -- what if these people -- like, you know, I felt like -- I listened to his speech and you know, he was saying we had to on behalf of all humanity, go over there and do this. Because he was going -- he said he was going to go house to house and get all the dissidents. He was bombing neighborhoods. So, I mean there`s a big difference.

MOORE: There is a difference. That`s why there`s the French. I mean there are people who share our values. The French, the Germans, the British, many others, and they were more than willing especially considering how Libya is about -- it`s 172 miles from Europe. That`s all it is. When you hit the first island in Greece, that`s 172 -- it`s very close.

BARR: So, ok -- do you believe that there`s no coalition? I mean do you believe what he said or not?

MOORE: I believe -- no, I believe there`s a coalition, but we`re the ones that are essentially running it. I think listen -- look, we`ve been through the ringer here for this last decade. We were attacked. Then we got ourselves into something we shouldn`t have been involved in. And we want to feel good about ourselves. We want to feel like we would do the right thing because we would do the right because that`s who we are.

BARR: I think our impulses --

MOORE: We see a town that`s going to be obliterated by some dictator or whatever, our first thing instinct is yes, let`s support that. but because we lack a certain credibility, because I think a lot of the world isn`t sure what comes out of the American Pentagon, what`s true, what isn`t true. We say we`re going to close Guantanamo, we don`t.

BARR: That`s right. That`s true.

MOORE: We say we`re going to do this, we don`t. Now, there`s the horrific photos in the Rolling Stone this week, of the kill team that the Pentagon knew about and did nothing about then tried to cover it up. So it`s kind of like, ok, we`re good people. Our instincts are good, our impulses are good. We want to help humanity, but we behave badly. And so we have to go and sit it out for a while and let others do what needed to be done.

And I think if what we were told was true about the Libyan army and again I think -- I mean people like myself, I take some grief for this. But I just think it`s important that you have some people always questioning, even the good people like Obama.

BARR: Right.

MOORE: We need to have people who are asking questions and I will continue to ask these questions. Let`s say it was true. The French took out that army. They stopped them in Benghazi, the atrocities didn`t happen. So that was a good thing. That`s a separate issue though of us getting involved in a third Middle East war that we really --

BARR: Who are the people that Obama`s listening to? I mean he might be the best guy on earth, but he`s listening to the same people that got us into this mess, isn`t he? I mean pretty much.

MOORE: Right. And let me go back to my original statement about him and his good heart. I wish he`d start listening to himself.

BARR: Oh, that`s exactly what I think, too.

MOORE: I wish he would start listening to himself and his wife.

BARR: And the American people who put him there. How about that?

MOORE: And to the American people. And one of the reasons he got there is because we were so tired of war.

BARR: That`s right.

MOORE: We didn`t want to have another war president.

BARR: We wanted it to end.

MOORE: We wanted it to end. And if he can build coalitions and have other people do the necessary humanitarian work that needs to happen when people are threatened, then I think we`re all behind that. We`re all for that. We all wish that.

BARR: Doesn`t it look like we`re all kind of really go to war against all Muslim people? It`s like five nations now. It`s scary.

MOORE: I think if you live in the Muslim world, you`re scared by that, too. That`s why I think our involvement in this has to be of a different caliber than military. We can provide other things.

I mean we`re the oldest democracy in the history of the world.

BARR: What about just growing food? We have to take -- but I mean, weren`t we supposed to be the bread basket of the world at some point? We were that. How come we`re not doing that and producing something that helps people rather than just all -- it`s all like going to attack, war, war, war. The stock market works to the war, right?

MOORE: Right. That`s right.

BARR: Thank you.

MOORE: I mean of course.

BARR: It`s so Scary.

MOORE: And it`s sad, too because we can do other things to make money, to provide jobs and to provide a middle class existence for people. And I would rather us focus on our own pro-democracy movement in this country.

BARR: No kidding.

MOORE: We could be a better example to the Muslim world and others when we start behaving properly ourselves. You have these governors in the Midwest. And all that --

BARR: We`re going to get into all that when we come back. Right? We`re going to get into all. We have the total wrong people running things. That`s the point I want to make.

We`ll be right back.



BARR: And what is that with the minimum wage. Do you want some big butted liberal government telling you that you can`t work for (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in a totally dangerous place? No. My fellow Americans -- no.


BARR: That was a clip of yours truly in Michael Moore`s "Slacker Uprising".

I`m back with Michael Moore. I`m so glad you`re here. I`m so glad that you`re here and you`re going to answer these questions that I want to hear you answer on television such as, what is -- what does it -- how -- how are they getting away with it? Like how -- how is Scott Walker, how can this happen? How can they like, how did they get rid of ACORN? How are they like, this is just complete class warfare, they`re trying to take out not only the middle class, but any protection that all workers from these thieving billionaire bastards.

MOORE: Right.

BARR: I have that random ball, I`m all worked up. I`m sorry.

MOORE: The -- it`s not random.



MOORE: It`s not just happening like Pacman.

BARR: Right.

MOORE: This is a very organized and well-funded attempt on the right. And it`s the corporate right.

BARR: Yes it`s not even the old right that we used to hate back in the `60s.

MOORE: Right, no it`s not -- that failed. That`s what -- those people are gone. Now, there`s two -- there`s two right wings. There`s a corporate right and there`s the so-called Christian right.

BARR: Right.

MOORE: I hate to put the name Christian on to them because if JC were here today I think he`d be a little upset.

BARR: Oh, boy, he would be.

MOORE: But --


BARR: People are calling them Christian nationalists and I like that.

MOORE: Yes I heard -- I heard another term yesterday. Crystal fascists -- it`s really is -- it`s heading towards that. Because the -- I mean, the textbook definition of fascism is when you align the corporate state with the governmental power and essentially, they work in collusion with each other to you know --

BARR: Rob everybody blind.

MOORE: Rob everybody and call the shots. And -- and they`ve successfully used the Christian Rite as tools for many years to do their work, to get people out, you know get all the people out who hate gay people. And get all the people out --

BARR: Right -- hate, hate, hate.

MOORE: Hate women and women`s rights. And believe that there should be the uterus police and whatever.

BARR: Right.

MOORE: You know, they`ve -- so they`ve manipulated that --


BARR: They manipulate --


MOORE: All right it evolved.

BARR: -- it seems like they -- they manipulate the good grace and the -- and the -- and the good intention of -- of the American people and then at the image put a big old twist on it so people can`t even figure it out.

MOORE: Right and those very people are the people who are losing their jobs, losing their homes.


BARR: Right.

MOORE: Losing, you know, I mean, the difficult situations that they`re in are often the very people that they get to vote them for their candidates. So all these Republican governors who won in this last election, these Republican legislatures, have -- came out of the gates very fast in January.

BARR: Yes they did.

MOORE: Well, they had a plan and they had a well-funded plan and that was to eliminate or reduce the power of public employee unions, to cut taxes for the rich in the state.

BARR: Yes.

MOORE: Raise taxes --


BARR: Right.

MOORE: -- on working people and the poor.

BARR: What, there`s a huge transfer of wealth.

MOORE: That`s correct.

BARR: Right.

MOORE: And -- and in my state, in Michigan, they even passed a law that gives the governor the right to dissolve a city council and fire a mayor and take over a town if he believes the town isn`t being run right.

BARR: Oh, my God.


MOORE: Now, now I`m serious yes --

BARR: How does it --

MOORE: Can you imagine if Obama proposed a law that gave him the power to dissolve the Ohio legislature just because he thought they were messing things up?


MOORE: I mean, people would be, they`d be screaming, it would be -- it would be beyond socialist and Kenyan and everything else; they would have other names for him.

BARR: Absolutely.

MOORE: But they`ve been able to pull this off in just a matter of weeks. Now, here`s the good news.

BARR: What?

MOORE: The people --


BARR: Yes.

MOORE: -- the people in these states have awakened.

BARR: Yes.

MOORE: They realize, I mean, you got to -- in my state, for instance, Governor Schneider who won --

BARR: Yes.

MOORE: -- in November. People, a lot of people did not go to vote. That`s the honest. That`s the truth. I mean, half the people did not vote in that election.

BARR: Yes.

MOORE: So of this --


BARR: What`s his name, I mean, like giving them credit because they know it`s worthless. I mean, come on.

MOORE: They tell us it`s worthless and they were disappointed in the Obama administration. And I think people thought that things we`re going to move faster. You know, he, they get a health care bill passed. They tell everybody now we have universal health care and then people go to get help and they find out oh, there`s no help, not until 2014. That`s what the new law says.


BARR: So listen Obama can`t --

MOORE: Well, your child is dying right now.

BARR: -- Obama can`t really -- can he do anything? I mean, they`ve - - they`ve put him on top of this thing or as so damaged, no one person can turn it like turn it around or turn right. Is there any hope for us? Are we already on the downside of this huge fire ball slippery slope that ends in like just the worst possible thing? No jobs, nothing. I mean, just like, are we going to be like Mexico?

MOORE: You know, I sit here and I want to say something positive and optimistic.

BARR: Well, that`s why I like you, so go ahead.

MOORE: But I`m -- ok. This is what I can say that`s true. The richest one percent that controls the vast, vast majority of the wealth, in fact the new statistic is the top 400 richest people in this country now have more wealth than the 150 million combined.

BARR: Correct -- God.

MOORE: Combined, right? But there`s still only 400 people, there`s still only -- or the -- or the ones that have a little less than them, the richest one percent there`s still be a 99 -- we`re still democracy, we still have the vote. We can still, this is the thing they hate the most about our democracy is the fact that -- that there`s still that voting booth that we still have the power to vote them out.

Now, they try to trick up the system by buying these candidates, by putting on ads like they did in Michigan for this governor that --


BARR: Not to mention the machines that turn over the votes and count.

MOORE: Well, we should be voting like Canada votes. I mean, this is crazy that we allow any machine or a computer. The Canadians just called for a new election up there. You know how they`re going to vote in a -- in a couple of months? With a paper ballot and a number two pencil.

BARR: That`s exactly right.

MOORE: And they count 30 million ballots like this in a matter of three hours. And it`s the largest, the second largest land mass in the world.

BARR: Right.

MOORE: They are bringing those ballots in by canoe, dog sleds, on the backs of baby seals. I mean, these Canadians you know, I mean, but they -- they vote the old school way and they never have a problem, do they? You never hear of any problem up there.

BARR: Well, get back to telling us what we can do and the hopeful thing. Because I`m -- I`m getting really depressed and anxious about the whole things.

MOORE: Well, people right now, first of all, right now, everybody out there who`s been you know, upset, complaining about what`s going on. Right now, there are movements at all 50 states.

Right now, within the next couple of weeks, there will be demonstrations; there will be rallies in your state capitals in nearly all 50 states. You`ve got to get involved. You`ve got to go online and join these groups. There`s a group called U.S. Uncut. You can go on the AFL site. You could go on many sights. Teachers, start supporting this.

BARR: Start, yes, start being active. Right? Start being active.

MOORE: Yes, but not just going to demonstrations. You need to organize your neighbors, your churches, your schools and can I just say --

BARR: Yes, but we`re running out of time.

MOORE: Can I just say this into your camera? Some of you need to run. You need to run for office.

BARR: I`m running. That`s what I was going to ask in the next --

MOORE: You need to run.

BARR: -- in the next segment. I`m going to run for President of the United States.


BARR: On behalf of the tax-paying people.


BARR: I`m thinking about it, anyway.


BARR: Don`t go away. More from Michael Moore in just a minute.



MOORE: We`re going to get the money back for the American people.

UMOORE: I understand sir. But you can`t come in.

MOORE: Can I just take the bag, pick it up there. Fill it up. I got more bags, but $10 billion probably won`t fit in here.


BARR: That was from "Capitalism, a Love Story". I`m back with film maker, Michael Moore.

So Michael, give us the -- so many of us look to you for direction and purpose and I just want to give you --

MOORE: That could be dangerous.

BARR: No, but -- because you`re always right.


MOORE: Well, not always. Thank you for saying that, but that`s not true. But thank you.

Here`s what I think we can do. Right now in Wisconsin, they`ve already collected the signatures for more than 50 percent of signatures they need in the last few weeks to recall some of these state senators.

BARR: I love it.

MOORE: There will be a recall election. There`s petitions out in Michigan now to recall the governor; this governor of Michigan won by 18 points just in November. They just asked a question in a poll: if the election was held today, the Democrats would win. He`d beat this guy that he lost to by 18 points.

Here we are -- we`re not even six months later, people want him out of there. The people are upset. They`re not going to take this anymore. And I think that if everybody just gets involved --

BARR: Just one last time, right? Just one last time if we all like, all the things that we thought, you know, all the different points that we have.


BARR: Could we still like, I just feel like if we did it one more concerted time, if everybody really pulled together and everybody really did, you know, try again, that we could do it just this time, this one last time because if we don`t, we are not going to come back.

MOORE: No, this is it. No, I really believe this is it because this country is being run by corporations and being run by the wealthy. They call the shots. They buy our politicians. All we have left is what`s written down in the constitution. It allows us to go to the ballot, the voting booth and recall these people. Put the right people in. But we just can`t -- believe me, they`ve got a lot of money.

BARR: But they don`t even care about this country. That`s what bugs me. They`re internationalists. These Scott Walker kind -- they don`t care about America.

MOORE: That`s right. They could care less.

BARR: That`s the last thing they care about. MOORE: They`ll move the jobs out of here. They`ll do whatever they can to fill they`re on greedy pockets.

They don`t care about this country.

BARR: They don`t care about the people who are over there fighting for this country as you stated in the very opening of this show.

MOORE: But they`re not afraid of us. This is what really -- I want to live in a country where as we sit here in Time Warner, where they become afraid to put you or I on the air because they`re afraid that right now, at 10:00 at night, people are going to get up out of their chairs --

BARR: They might be afraid, but they did it. I`m grateful that they did it. I`d just like to encourage all the American people. Come on now, you guys. You`ve got to do it one more time -- one more time with feeling, right?

MOORE: Right. Right. Yes --

BARR: Because otherwise, we`re never going to get this chance again ever.

MOORE: And I`m telling you when it`s all gone and all the people that fought so hard to get the things we had, a decent lifestyle, middle class wage --

BARR: Rights for women.

MOORE: Kids being able to go to college and being able afford it --

BARR: A middle class life.

MOORE: All this -- and the simple thing, to be able to marry the person you`re in love with.

BARR: Or divorce them.

MOORE: Or divorce them.

BARR: Thank you so much, Michael. I love you. We`ll be back in a minute.

MOORE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Roseanne talks to Nancy Grace about the upcoming Casey Anthony murder trial.


BARR: 47-year-old Rob Lowe dishes on his old pal, Charlie Sheen, in the May issue of "Vanity Fair," and as an extra treat, he appears shirtless on the cover.

With me now to discuss this and other important news stories are Sandra Bernhard, comedian, singer and actress.

SANDRA BERNHARD, COMEDIAN: No snake around his neck or anything? I mean, at least throw a snake around that guy`s neck.

BARR: You`re right, come to think of it.

BERNHARD: A bummer.

BARR: Joe Levy, editor in chief of "Maxim," a dirty boy magazine.

JOE LEVY, EDITOR IN CHIEF, MAXIM: Yes, thank goodness.

BARR: And Frank DeCaro, host of "The Frank DeCaro Show" on Sirius XM Radio. Hi, Frank.


LEVY: That`s a dirty boy radio show.

DECARO: It is, it`s very dirty.


BARR: All-boy radio show. There`s a couple of women on there. Anyway, I`m getting off the subject. Sandra.

BERNHARD: I wish you would. Because if I have to talk about Rob Lowe and Charlie Sheen, I`m going to vomit on the floor.


BARR: You have to.

BERNHARD: All right.

BARR: First of all, do you know any other men? I know that you`re bitter, but look at--

BERNHARD: I`m not bitter --


BERNHARD: I`m bitter about Charlie Sheen. I don`t care about Rob Lowe.

BARR: But don`t you think the guy looks great? He`s 50 years old with no shirt.

BERNHARD: Well, I could have posed and looked just as good.


BERNHARD: Though I would have put a snake around myself. Why -- what is with everybody in the topless? Roseanne.

BARR: I think he looks good. Come on, you`ve got to give it up to him.

DECARO: I`m not complaining. I -- Hello. I think he looks fantastic.

BARR: Hello!

DECARO: No, because go, he looks good for his age. He looks good for any age.

BARR: For any age.

DECARO: It`s amazing.

BARR: What about you? Why don`t you put something like that in your magazine?

LEVY: I thought you were going to ask me to pose like that. The problem is, if I do, everybody thinks when I take off my shirt, I`m still wearing a shirt. There`s that much hair. So I can`t do that--


BERNHARD: We didn`t need to hear that tonight, Joe.

LEVY: I`m sorry, was that too much? Too much information?

BARR: If you want to put a couple of naked, half-naked guys in "Maxim" magazine, though, because you`ve got a lot of women readers, right?

LEVY: We do have some women readers. And apparently, they will enjoy -- sure, we`ll put some half-naked men in.

BARR: I think you should.


LEVY: Just out of curiosity.

BARR: Well, I mean, if anybody would like, I mean, really, we`d rather see, like, erect penises, but--




BARR: What are the odds that you`re going to do something like that?

LEVY: What are the odds? 50/50 I think, yes.


BARR: So Rob Lowe called Sheen a mix of nerd and rebel. And all this time, I thought he was a mix of alcoholic and crackhead. So you learn something new.


BARR: You don`t want to talk about Charlie Sheen?

BERNHARD: You know something, I`ve never tweeted about him the entire time this whole thing has been going on. I`ve just boycotted it. I just can`t stand it anymore. Roseanne, I just got back from Mexico. I don`t want to talk about these things. Let`s talk about fun things, like revolutions.

BARR: Yes. Like Charlie Sheen in a revolution.

LEVY: There we go.

BERNHARD: That would really get us far.

BARR: I think Charlie Sheen is kind of revolutionary. Do either of you guys think that? I mean, he`s like, f that, I`m not going to play the role everybody wants me to. I`m not going to rehab. Forget it.

LEVY: I suppose he`s a revolutionary mess, but he is a mess, and I do think every time -- I do think we should be mandated by law when we talk about Charlie Sheen to say Charlie Sheen, admitted girlfriend and wife abuser, I think we need to foreground it every time we mention his name. But here`s the thing. He`s a revolutionary mess. He has stepped outside of the Hollywood publicity machine.

BARR: Right. Which I kind of -- I have to in fact kind of respect that.

LEVY: There you go.

BERNHARD: But isn`t it sort of, he, you know, the kind of the opposite equation of like what`s going on in the country anyway? It`s just like --

BARR: Well, he`s a big -- I mean, he takes everybody`s mind off getting in their pockets.


BERNHARD: But he`s really just been sort of a pawn in this whole Hollywood corporate game.

BARR: Yeah, he is kind of a pawn.

BERNHARD: You know, when you boil it all down, so like the fact that he is like a revolutionary and he`s like, you know--

BARR: Well, a revolutionary mess is a good way to put it.

DECARO: Or trainwreck. I worry about him, because I think he may think he`s Keith Richards. And there`s only one Keith Richards who can cheat death and you know--


DECARO: Snort things with Mr. Death.

BARR: Let`s move on.

BERNHARD: Yeah, let`s move on.

BARR: Charlie Sheen.



BARR: Moving on. Willie Nelson might be charged (ph) in his latest pot arrest if he agrees to pay a $100 fine and sing in court. Does that make a mockery of our sham of a judicial system?


BERNHARD: You know, I love Willie Nelson.

BARR: I do too.

BERNHARD: In theory.


BERNHARD: I mean, I really want to say Willie has, you know, but to sit even in a courtroom and have to listen to him sing at this point, I think, I`ll just, you know, throw him back -- throw him in the clinker.

BARR: Go back to Mexico.

BERNHARD: Yeah, go back to Mexico.

LEVY: What I love is he`s been busted in this small West Texas town where apparently the prosecutors said if you think I`m going to be mean to Willie Nelson, you`re wrong. He`s going to make him pay a fine. The fine is going to go to charity. He`s going to sing a song. I think the requester was requesting "Blue Eyes Crying in the Rain."

BARR: That`s right, yes.

LEVY: So it`s an accepted fact of law. If you`re Willie Nelson, you can get away with it. And I just want to see the same treatment for everybody. If Lil` Wayne gets busted, I think Lil` Wayne should just -- he should be able to -- I`m going to rap a million, give $100 to charity and smoke all the pot I want. Let`s just do it for everybody.

DECARO: But shouldn`t Willie Nelson have a prescription for this by now? I mean, isn`t he -- couldn`t he -- someone could say, he must have glaucoma, give him a prescription and let him get off of it. I don`t understand why he doesn`t get off scot-free.

BARR: Why did they arrest the guy in the first place if this is the punishment?

DECARO: I`m going to give him $200 if he doesn`t sing. How about that?


BERNHARD: The cops want to hang out with him. You know, the judges want to hang out with him, good old boy, Willie. It`s cool to have him in the court. You know, they can BS with him.


LEVY: It`s really great if you`re a law enforcement official and you`re around Willie Nelson, you get a contact high. So you can get high legally that way.

BARR: And finally, here is our final question for our illustrious panel here.

BERNHARD: This is right up our alley.

BARR: This is right up our alley. Finally, Madonna`s beloved Kabbalah center and her charity Raising Malawi are being investigated by the IRS reportedly for accounting discrepancies. See, that`s why I stick with a reputable religion, Scientology!

BERNHARD: We saw it coming, Roseanne, many years ago. You know, I cut off my red string. Everything seemed to be OK without my red string.

BARR: The world didn`t collapse?

BERNHARD: The world did not collapse, and you know, we got a lot of good things out of Kabbalah. Some wonderful --


BERNHARD: Some wonderful knishes and a fresh tuna salad.

BARR: Not to mention the dental plan. That`s why I got into it.

BERNHARD: But you know what, they were headed in this direction.


BARR: You know what I say? Any time you get like human beings involved, something will go wrong.

BERNHARD: In religion.

LEVY: That will do it.

BERNHARD: It`s really been -- it`s been a bad time for the kosher butchers and the Kabbalah center. So I`m heartbroken about the whole thing.

BARR: It`s kind of sad.


BERNHARD: I had higher hopes for the Jews this year.

BARR: What have you got to say? You`re a Jew.

LEVY: It`s -- wow, thank you for noticing.


LEVY: The nose gave it away?

BARR: Well, the Levy.

LEVY: Levy, sure, the name, sure, yes.

BARR: What have you got to say about this? Why does this appeal to so many gentiles is what I want to know?

LEVY: The Kabbalah?

BARR: Yeah, to gentiles.

LEVY: I really don`t know. You guys know more about Kabbalah than I do. You were both involved. But it was supposed to be -- it seemed like it was a marketed religion. It seems like you could buy a book, buy a string and feel better. You know, so?

BERNHARD: Well, the Kabbalah center is -- it is, it`s a money-making situation. They had to open it up to the goyim (ph) because the Jews were not spending their money there. For Christ`s sake, Roseanne, you knew that was coming.

BARR: I sort of knew this was coming.

DECARO: I was raised Catholic, so I -- I mean, I`ll trade scandals with anyone if you want. I think most Catholics right now are like, knock yourselves out. Have an IRS--

BERNHARD: At least the Jews don`t get involved with the abuse.


BERNHARD: By the time they`re 30, they don`t want to have sex anymore anyway, so they`re done with it.

BARR: Thanks, guys, we`ll be right back. I think that`s a good point.


BARR: I`ve got a confession to make. I`m a huge Nancy Grace fanatic. I never miss a show. And I`m thrilled to have Nancy right here in the studio with me. She`s the host of HLN`s "Nancy Grace" and also "Swift Justice" with Nancy Grace. Welcome, Nancy.

NANCY GRACE, HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: I am actually a little starstruck and I wanted to see you so badly, I actually left the twins with their father and their grandfather and two babysitters and a nanny cam. That`s true, but I did leave them with their father.

BARR: They`re so cute. Lucy and John David.

GRACE: And the last I knew, it was a couple of hours ago, they were on -- at Waffle House. It`s one of our favorite hangouts. We play the jukebox, we have waffles, eggs, sometimes steak.

BARR: What kind of a mom are you? That`s what I wonder. Are you like--

GRACE: I`ve got to tell you something.

BARR: Do you have like strict rules? That`s how -- I don`t know. I imagine you being like, no, like, you know, approaching the jury or something.

GRACE: No, let me tell you something. When I get home at night, while all the other children are asleep in their beds, I come home at night and John David and Lucy are jumping up and down in their beds, going, mommy! Waiting on me to come home. And I will take turns rocking them and making up stories for them. They never really do--

BARR: You`re loving it, aren`t you?

GRACE: They never really do anything wrong. And their punishment, their timeout, I make them go sit in the closet floor with me. It`s kind of like a little room and we sit there quietly, and it`s their punishment. And they just think it`s awful.

BARR: So they do nothing wrong?

GRACE: No, they don`t.

BARR: I like -- one time I was watching when you said that you were feeding little Lucy popsicles and you have her in the bathtub. That is genius.

GRACE: It works.

BARR: That`s very smart.

GRACE: Listen, she was born at two pounds, and my mission -- see, when I look at her now, I still see that two-pound little thing. My mission is to make them live, and make them happy. And she would eat better in the tub. So we have now our whole meal, both of them, in the tub. I`ll be reading and I`ll get one of our--


GRACE: -- just running around. And our big thing is we just found these fizzy things and you drop them in the tub and it turns the water colors. Love it. That`s our big thing.

BARR: I`m happy for you.

GRACE: Sometimes they`re in there like -- on weekends from like 6:00 to 8:30 at night. Taking a bath.

BARR: You`re a little loony with that, I`m telling you. That`s something (ph).

GRACE: We have so much fun. Look, I waited my whole life. And it was worth it.

BARR: That`s so cool. You know, very touched and happy for you.

Now, let`s go on to these horrible mothers, the tot mom--

GRACE: The murder moms.

BARR: The murder moms. The tot mom. When is that trial ever going to happen? It`s been like 10 years.

GRACE: OK. No. 1, it`s supposed to go in May. But in my experience with death penalty trials, it may very well get further notice or continued. Because--

BARR: You think they`re going to give her the death penalty?

GRACE: I do.

BARR: I do too.

GRACE: I really do believe they will. Because if she does take the stand, she will seal her own fate, because she`s not likable in the least. Once in a while, you can get one juror that pulls at their heartstrings, especially when it`s a woman, a lady on the stand, that`s looking at the death penalty. Because you think, oh, she`s a mother. Well, she`s not a mother anymore by her own hand. And the fact -- this just bothers me. Duct tape across the child`s mouth, with a heart like a sticker. And my twins love stickers, they love stickers. And to think that you would put that on your baby`s mouth and then put a heart sticker on it.

BARR: But is she mental? I mean--


GRACE: Mean. She`s mean.

BARR: How crazy do you think she is? Do you think she`s like--

GRACE: I don`t think that she`s legally insane, because that means, very simply put, that she did not know right from wrong at the time of the incident. Not at the time of the trial. That would be incompetency to stand trial. At the time of the incident. And she knew very well according to the state, to conceal the body in the car, get rid of the body, and then stage an elaborate wild goose chase and lie to police. Which I got to tell you, it`s elaborate. She took them driving all around to her job, didn`t exist. Went to the security gate. Well, she didn`t know the cops already knew. And when they couldn`t find her on the list of employees, she`s like, well, try extension 5192. I mean, she`s making up all kinds of crap.

BARR: But wasn`t -- isn`t some of the evidence like she was looking up chloroform on the Internet? So what was she, like, putting the kid to sleep in the trunk when she goes to parties?

GRACE: Here`s my theory.

BARR: Yeah, I want to hear it.

GRACE: My theory is that, like a lot of mothers, like a lot of people, she did not want responsibility. She was using her parent`s credit cards, stealing from them.

BARR: She stole from the grandmother.

GRACE: Took her own grandparent`s money that they were living off in a retirement home. Took that. Took the Christmas money. Took everything. Living there, mooching off them. Of course, Cindy and George Anthony were getting tired of it. Not tired of Caylee, but tired of Casey. And she didn`t want the responsibility.

She let on to everyone like she had a job, a very impressive job as an event planner. Total BS. And would sit there on her computer typing away in front of her boyfriend like she really had a job. And to avoid the responsibility and wanting the chance to go out and be single, she would knock the girl out with homemade chloroform.

BARR: You think she did it more than once?

GRACE: Yes, I do. Leave her in the car trunk. Because that was Zanny the nanny was the car trunk. And either she gave the child too much on purpose, or it was just another night of partying for Casey Anthony, and the child died. But what suggests that she--

BARR: Why would her parents not know what she was really up to?

GRACE: Because they believed that she had a nanny. They thought she had a job and that she had a nanny. But what suggests it was intentional is putting the duct tape around the mouth. Because why would you do that just to make the child go to sleep?

BARR: She`s completely -- they`re saying that like, they`re saying that one of the things is that they might -- her best defense or something is that George Anthony, that they might try to blame it on him, that he snapped and killed the little girl. Have you heard about that?

GRACE: I`ve heard it. I`ve heard pointing the fingers at so many different people. I would predict that she`ll throw a lot of things at the jury and hope that one sticks. And using her own father as a scapegoat is one. In other words, he tried to commit suicide, which he apparently did, because he was guilty of killing the child. Nobody`s going to believe that. She`ll blame former boyfriends, former lovers, next-door neighbors, the meter reader that found the body.


GRACE: She`s going to blame everybody else and hope one juror says, you know what? Maybe they did it.

BARR: But you think they`re going to convict her.

GRACE: I think they will convict her and I think they will give her the death penalty. Of course, I also said they would give O.J. Simpson a guilty verdict too, so.

BARR: I remember--


BARR: And you thought Michael Jackson was going to get a guilty, too.

GRACE: Yes, I always believe--


GRACE: I don`t believe juries will be starstruck, and then they always are.

BARR: Yeah. Well, except for she`s not a star. But anyway, more with Nancy Grace in just a minute. Maybe that way they`ll get one of them.


BARR: I`m back with my new best friend Nancy Grace. It`s just a thrill to meet you and to have you on.

GRACE: Likewise.

BARR: Thank you.

GRACE: You know, for all the years that I`ve watched you and loved you. And it was in a very bad time in my life. My fiancee had been murdered.

BARR: Oh, yeah.

GRACE: I never thought that I would ever find joy or happiness again, and you would make me laugh, laugh, laugh.

BARR: Oh, that`s so sweet, thank you.

GRACE: That`s something to be said.

BARR: You know, it`s been a great job. It`s my favorite job I`ve ever had, and thank God I haven`t been fired from this one yet.

So, Nancy, I want to ask you this because I love how you talk to lawyers. You`re like, unleash the lawyers. Judy Che (ph) and --


BARR: But I want to ask you, do you think there`s any way we can fix our broken judicial system? I hear you talk about it a lot. What do you think we can do? There`s like two systems, one for rich people, one for everyone else.

GRACE: I used to think at the very beginning when I first started prosecuting that it was about male, female and race.

BARR: Well, it`s a little of that.

GRACE: Yes, it still is. But also, it`s about money.

BARR: Money.

GRACE: And who has education and who has money, and there is a caste system in our justice system.

BARR: Absolutely. You`re very brave to say that.

GRACE: Let me tell you something, if it had been an undereducated or poor minority that went into that fancy jewelry store and came out with a $2,500 necklace, honey bun, she would have been under the jail.

BARR: Oh, you mean Lindsay.

GRACE: Yes. That`s what I mean. Or Mel Gibson calling his wife on - - or his girlfriend -- on tape and saying I will put you in the cemetery, oh, yeah, that`s a terroristic threat. He would be in jail. Where is he? He`s probably sunning himself outside of his infinity pool in his house, having a good old time, kicking back a brewski right now. So you know, that`s the way it works.

What can we do? This is the only thing I know we can do. No. 1 -- and it sounds so lame but it`s true.

BARR: What?

GRACE: Nobody -- and I`ve been guilty of it myself -- votes in judicial elections. Nobody educates themselves. They don`t know who the bad judges are. And they keep revoting them in over and over. And No. 2 - -

BARR: What can we do? Get a web site?

GRACE: Vote them out!

BARR: But we`ve got to have some kind of a central like some place where you can go and check--


GRACE: -- that Google or that Yahoo! thing, you just put their name in, you find out all about them and you can read all about them.

And the other thing is, if you don`t like what`s going on in Washington, which I hate to talk about politics, because I don`t believe any of them.

BARR: I don`t either.

GRACE: Republican, Democrat, Green, independent, don`t care, all they want is one thing --

BARR: Money?

GRACE: To get re-elected to make more money.

BARR: So they can get their hands on that public money.

GRACE: So the only thing--

BARR: You know, Nancy, what -- before -- finish, because let me--


GRACE: The only thing we can do if we don`t like what`s going on is to make a difference in the ballot box. It the only thing.

BARR: What does that mean exactly?

GRACE: Vote! And voice your opinion!


BARR: You ought to run for something. I mean, women our age, we`ve got -- you don`t, because you`ve got the twins -- but women our age, we have some extra money, a lot of us, and we have extra time, our kids are grown. We ought to get out there and start running for office.

GRACE: Let me tell you, you know what somebody at my Sunday school said to me?

BARR: What?

GRACE: No offense, but you need to buy a new pair of tennis shoes, because I actually -- I have it on right now -- have a hole in my tennis shoe. No, I do not have extra money. Everything goes to savings for the twins. But if I did have extra money, I cannot imagine putting myself in a cesspool like Washington, D.C.

BARR: Of politics, yes.


BARR: I mean, we have got to have decent people, you know, we have to wrap it up, but we`ve got to get decent women to run.


GRACE: What about you? When you finish your macadamia nut harvest, why don`t you just trot on up to D.C.?

BARR: I`m thinking about it, because nobody`s talking for the taxpayers. And that`s where the money`s coming from that they`re stealing. Damn it!

Well, anyway, this -- I want to say this to you. Good night, friend.

GRACE: Good night, friend.


GRACE: Now say it for real.

BARR: Thanks, everybody. Good night. I love that you say that at the end.

Thank you, Joy!