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Joy Behar Page
Hunt for a Serial Killer; Female Infidelity on the Rise?
Aired April 12, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, police have found at least nine sets of remains along a desolate stretch of beach in New York. As the hunt for the serial killer heats up, Joy wants to know, will the victims` chosen profession make it harder to solve this case?
Then sex therapist Ian Kerner tells Joy if female infidelity is more damaging to a relationship than when a man cheats.
Plus Lady Gaga takes a tumble on stage. Broadway legend Harvey Fierstein is here to talk about how stars keep their poise when disaster strikes.
That and more, starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: I remember when David Berkowitz, the "Son of Sam" killer was terrorizing New York City. It was just awful. We were afraid to go out of the house. Well, today it looks like there`s a new serial killer loose in this area and that creepy feeling is coming right back.
Here to discuss this case are Pat Brown, criminal profiler; and Gil Alba, former NYPD detective.
But first I want to go to Allan Chernoff, CNN senior correspondent, who is at the scene where the victims are being found. Allan, authorities made a made a discovery yesterday. What was the discovery?
ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Right. Here in Nassau County they discovered a skull and then a mile and a half away they also discovered yet another set of bones.
Joy, this would be either the ninth or possibly even the tenth victims in this whole investigation. As you recall, eight victims had been discovered across the county line in Suffolk County.
BEHAR: There was also a child, I found out was also discovered, the remains of a child, right?
CHERNOFF: Well, there have been reports to that effect. The authorities are not confirming that on the record. But that report, that report has actually led to the very anxiety you just referred to because there are not many people who live out here. This is one of the most desolate areas in the New York metro area.
BEHAR: I know it well.
CHERNOFF: There are about 300 families that live down -- yes -- down this stretch of ocean parkway here. Everybody comes to Jones Beach, I`m sure you`ve been here many times.
BEHAR: Yes.
CHERNOFF: But there are about five communities all the way down, including Oak Beach, where one of the women who the police have been searching for was last seen; a woman who had been working as a prostitute who advertised online.
The people who live in these communities have been reassured feeling, well, at least it seems that this killer, this alleged killer was just pursuing prostitutes. But if all of a sudden they actually have discovered the body of a child, that totally changes the equation, and yes, so people in the communities here are now highly concerned. Yes.
BEHAR: Well, isn`t it possible that the child was the child of one of these prostitutes? That she had the child with her when he killed her?
CHERNOFF: It certainly is.
BEHAR: That may be why the child is there, so -- I don`t know, I mean. But do the cops feel like they`re getting any closer to finding a suspect in this case?
CHERNOFF: They certainly do have some suspects, I mean -- but they haven`t named anybody yet. I mean they are working very hard on this. And this has been going on for quite some time. Recall this woman Shannon Gilbert, the prostitute who went missing, she`s been missing for almost a year. Back to May 1st of last year. Some of the others had been missing for several years prior to then, all the way back to 2007.
So this is really something that`s been going on for quite a while. We can`t say that the police are close to solving this just yet.
BEHAR: Ok. Thank you very much, Allan.
Let me turn to my panel, let`s go to Pat first. Pat, do you think this is all the work of one man?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, Joy, it`s likely, because when you have all the bodies dumped in one spot you simply have to believe it`s one serial killer and there weren`t two or three or four who decided hey, great body dumping site, let`s all throw our bodies there. So I think we`ve got one guy.
And I also think that people in Long Island can be fairly calm at this point because first of all, this guy is not going to be striking again there. There are so many eyes of law enforcement everywhere that he is not going to be killing anybody any time soon in that location.
BEHAR: Do you agree with that, Gil?
GIL ALBA, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: Definitely not because Shannon Gilbert went missing, the police did an investigation. Went to the houses screaming "Help me out". A month later, three weeks later on a Saturday another girl went missing and three weeks after that another girl went missing.
BEHAR: Right.
ALBA: So this guy is not afraid.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: That was before the bodies were found.
ALBA: He`s brazen, very brazen.
BROWN: That was before the bodies were found. But now that bodies are being found, they`re doing all the searches, he`s not going to be operating in that climate. He might operate someplace else so I think other people in other jurisdictions might have to worry, but not in Long Island.
BEHAR: Well, maybe.
ALBA: That`s possible. I don`t go for that too much.
BEHAR: That remains to be seen. Ok.
Now, do you -- let me ask you -- he seems to be killing prostitutes.
ALBA: Yes.
BEHAR: Is this some kind of contempt he has for working girls or what? And what`s going on because they`re -- you know, a prostitute is not -- is disposable in the eyes of some people.
ALBA: Yes. And I think that`s one of the reasons for that. I mean he`s got deep psychological problems and, you know, to go and just prostitutes -- and hopefully so far, these prostitutes -- there`s eight people missing and in Atlantic City there`s four more bodies -- so hopefully, that they were on the site and these cases should be connected, actually, so we could have 13 missing, murdered people all with this one.
BEHAR: I didn`t know about the Atlantic City. There are three women --
ALBA: I think they found four women off the highway. They were prostitutes also. They never caught the guy. So I think they`re putting these two cases sort of together.
BEHAR: Do they really think it could be the same person?
ALBA: Why not? I think it is possible. You have to put the cases together, I think it could be, yes.
BROWN: I want to agree with that because I mean Atlantic City isn`t so far away. So if this guy had some business down there or was feeling things were too hot in Long Island he could go down there.
But I do want to say I don`t think that he has anything necessarily against prostitutes particularly. I mean I never believed this thing was a mission oriented serial killer where he had to cleanse the earth of all the prostitutes. I think the real reason is, they`re easy. When you drive up to a prostitute and offer money, she`ll jump in your car. If you get her on Craigslist, she`ll show up. I mean that`s very simple.
The second reason is when they go missing there isn`t that much of a search for them as or would like with a schoolgirl --
BEHAR: That`s true.
BROWN: -- who you know is not -- she should be home at 3:00. With the prostitute, well, maybe she went off with her boyfriend, maybe she was working.
BEHAR: That`s right.
BROWN: And therefore it`s a really great victim.
BEHAR: I mean some of these girls have been missing since `07. What took them so long to --
ALBA: Because, you know, they weren`t reported to their families, but however, there`s a pattern to this. They`re all white, at this point. They were all young, 20 years old and they all look basically the same. But when you go out in that community --
BEHAR: He has a type.
ALBA: He`s got certain type so far. I mean with those four he had a type.
BROWN: He could change up on that one, easy.
BEHAR: What about the girls in Atlantic City? Were they also --
ALBA: Some of them were young. One I think was 35 years old. But, you know, a serial killer could change his MO. He could change the way he kills. You know, they escalate and want to do other things and go after that. But you know the community out there. I mean you know, going out there and living out there --
BEHAR: In Atlantic City? Or Jones Beach?
ALBA: Yes, going past that, there`s 400 houses out there.
BEHAR: It`s desolate. Right.
ALBA: Now, who can go out there? Yes.
BEHAR: Ok, now this -- let`s go to this one, Pat. The victim`s sister said she received phone calls from this killer on her sister`s phone after she disappeared. Now, watch what she said on "Good Morning America". Look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Very scary. My heart would stop and like just didn`t even know what to do mostly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did he say that he had killed your sister on the phone?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. It was very frustrating. It broke my heart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Why would he call her? Why did he do this, Pat?
BROWN: Well, this guy is a sexual sadist, first of all. He is not the serial killer that jumps out of the bushes, the anger-retaliatory type that just knocks you over the head and ten minutes later, he`s done, he`s gone.
This is a man who likes to bring the women back to his lair and spends hours if not days or hopefully not weeks torturing them in his little basement perhaps that he set up for them. But once he`s finished with that, you know, sometimes you just want to keep the pleasure going and perhaps this one girl, maybe she begged maybe she said I`ve got a little sister out there, she can`t not have me come home. And he said, what`s your little sister`s name?
And once he killed off his victim, he thought, now I can have some more fun. I`ll call that little sister up and play with her because he is a -- he`s a horrible sadist. That`s what he is. He loves to torture people.
BEHAR: He`s a sick, sick person.
BROWN: Very.
BEHAR: He`s evil.
I mean the sister is scared, too. Shouldn`t she be scared, Gil?
ALBA: I don`t think he`s going to come after her but how he got her was through her cell phone. He got her --
BEHAR: Yes. Why can`t they use that as evidence?
ALBA: They did and it traced back to like Madison Square Garden, Penn Station and all that, and one in Long Island. So, you know, through the towers and all that. I mean he knows what to do and what kind of phones to use and everything else. So it`s not like -- I mean I don`t believe it`s a cop or anything like that.
BROWN: I agree. I agree.
ALBA: I believe this guy is a smart guy, he knows what he`s doing. And it`s premeditated. He knows who to get, he knows what calls, he knows what to do with the bodies.
BEHAR: They are saying on some of the news shows that he might be a police officer because he knew certain things like I think the Madison Square Garden you referred to --
ALBA: Right.
BEHAR: -- there`s so many people there that the cameras couldn`t catch him.
ALBA: Every joint in New York City.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: And there`s also strip clubs. There`s strip clubs down there. He might be going out there to find a lady to be his next victim. I think some of these things are highly exaggerated. He is not a stupid, stupid man because he does -- he has covered up pretty well, but on the other hand he`s not brilliant either so that`s exaggerating --
BEHAR: That`s happened.
BROWN: Well not necessarily. Most serial killers go uncaught but I hope with this one --
BEHAR: Is that so?
BROWN: Absolutely.
ALBA: Not with this guy.
BROWN: I hope with this guy because he`s put all the bodies in one place and there`s a lot of evidence and the way he behaves and where he`s working at I hope they can narrow it down and identify him.
BEHAR: Ok. Thank you guys very much.
ALBA: Ok. Thanks very much.
BEHAR: We`ll be right back.
ALBA: Ok.
BROWN: Ok.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Some experts say that there`s a rise in female infidelity and they claim it`s more damaging to a marriage than when the man cheats. Let`s find out about that, and here to break it down for me is my favorite sex therapist and founder of GoodInBed.com, Ian Kerner.
Ok, so there`s a rise in female infidelity.
IAN KERNER, SEX THERAPIST: Yes.
BEHAR: Why?
KERNER: Well, you know, I have colleagues who say there actually isn`t a rise, that women have always cheated as much as men but have been much better at concealing it and hiding it in general.
BEHAR: Yes.
KERNER: But -- but that said, I think that there is actually a rise and it has a lot to do with women in the workplace who are going to work and you know --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Oh, yes.
KERNER: -- feeling better and -- and looking good and engaging in -- you know, very vital relationships with colleagues. You know, right now 65 percent of all infidelity kind of begins in the workplace.
BEHAR: Yes but what if you`re a toll taker on the jersey turnpike.
KERNER: Yes.
BEHAR: That`s a workplace.
KERNER: Yes, well, that is a workplace.
BEHAR: No, like you have to be --
(CROSS TALK)
KERNER: Well, you know what? You know where it`s happening?
BEHAR: -- maybe if you work in an advertising agency where, you know, mad men are hanging around, maybe then.
(CROSS TALK)
KERNER: Yes, you know but even if you`re in -- in that toll booth you still have a Blackberry, you still have an iPhone --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Yes, yes, yes.
KERNER: -- you still have, you know, the boost or whatever it is.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
KERNER: -- and you`re engaging in very likely possibly an Internet infidelity or an emotional infidelity. That`s the other side of it, is that because the Internet is all about friendships and flirtation --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Right.
KERNER: -- and because you can get to know somebody without the sex, it can become kind of an infatuation.
BEHAR: And the sex doesn`t even have to enter into it, really.
KERNER: No. I think actually, and this is something that men don`t understand, but I think when you have a relationship with somebody where there`s an attraction and it`s without the sex, it can be all the more powerful than when it`s with the sex.
BEHAR: Well, sure. It`s like foreplay forever. I love that.
KERNER: Foreplay forever.
BEHAR: Yes. Everyone likes foreplay more than -- women like that even better than the sex.
KERNER: And that`s why I said, you know, I got in trouble --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
KERNER: -- because I said female infidelity is more dangerous than male infidelity.
BEHAR: Why?
KERNER: Well, I think by the time a woman has cheated on her husband, very often in my experience she usually detests her husband by that point.
BEHAR: She detests him? Whereas with men?
(CROSS TALK)
KERNER: Detest them -- repulsed by -- you know, with men I think it`s kind of like the Charlie Sheen thing. Oh, there was a prostitute. That`s not even sex. That`s just -- it`s just a transaction.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Yes, yes.
KERNER: That was no emotion. It`s not even sex. I -- the reason I said this is because I think by the time a woman cheats she has often completely emotionally vacated a relationship.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: She`s had it with him.
KERNER: She`s completely out of there. Where a guy is like it was nothing, I just messed up. Give me another chance.
BEHAR: Do you think a woman`s age is a factor and am I in the high risk zone?
KERNER: Are you in the high risk -- are you in a high risk zone, Joy? You tell me.
BEHAR: No, I`m too old for that. Who cares? Who needs it?
KERNER: No I don`t think -- I think --
BEHAR: No forget it, I`m over it.
KERNER: You know, you`re not interested.
BEHAR: There was a time -- you it`s funny I was married.
KERNER: Do you think younger women are going to be --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: I was married.
KERNER: Yes.
BEHAR: -- and when I was married I used to think about adultery.
KERNER: Yes.
BEHAR: Then after I got divorced and I was hooked up with another guy --
(CROSS TALK)
KERNER: Yes.
BEHAR: -- who I`ve been with for many years and we`re not married, I never think about it anymore.
KERNER: Well, you`re happy, you`re in a good relationship. I think a lot of woman --
BEHAR: I think it`s because I was younger and I had not sown enough oats.
KERNER: You know that`s one side of it but there`s a lot of women who have been in relationships who never really had the passion or have never really connected to their husbands and it`s not until they get to an older age where they feel like they really have the confidence and maybe they have the financial wherewithal and they make the decision to cheat.
So I don`t actually think age is a factor. I mean, you can be sort of kind of --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: It could be anybody.
KERNER: It could be anybody --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
KERNER: -- it really depends on your happiness in your relationship.
BEHAR: And also probably if you think it`s ok to do. I mean, there are families where it`s totally (INAUDIBLE) --
(CROSS TALK)
KERNER: Yes.
BEHAR: -- and other families where well, my mother cheated, my father cheated, so then it`s no big deal.
KERNER: Yes, yes, they were raised in a culture of infidelity.
BEHAR: Yes.
KERNER: But I think sometimes when you`re raised in -- in an environment of infidelity you actually appreciate monogamy even more. So - -
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Ok, let`s look at some of the signs that your wife could be cheating out there.
KERNER: Yes.
BEHAR: Those of you who are watching.
KERNER: Yes.
BEHAR: Shows less interest in her partner`s comings and goings, particularly his comings. Ok.
KERNER: Absolutely. All right.
BEHAR: Hello, ok.
KERNER: More in her own comings.
BEHAR: Yes, right. And dresses up for work, cares less whether partner finds her attractive. She just runs around with a bathrobe and rollers in her hair.
KERNER: Well, I think it`s like -- yes. That`s right, you go to work, you look great and you`re come home and it`s like you`re in the sweats. And it`s like, you again?
BEHAR: You again.
Has less interest with sex with her partner.
KERNER: Yes, absolutely.
BEHAR: Well, duh, you know, yes but after a certain number of years of marriage, people tend to have less interest.
(CROSS TALK)
KERNER: You know, I -- I`ve got to -- they tend to have less but there`s also a recent study that show that couples in their 50s are having better sex than couples in their 20s and 30s.
BEHAR: With each other?
KERNER: With each other, yes. You know why? Because it`s sort of like less financial pressure, sometimes the kids are gone --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
KERNER: -- and you feel like you can finally get back to relating to the person again.
BEHAR: That`s nice. Seems happy except when she`s around her partner. It`s like, oh, you`re here? Well, now the depression sets in.
KERNER: Yes. You know, like I said earlier, I think -- I -- I think that women have always been cheating, too, but men just weren`t really picking up on a lot of the signs.
BEHAR: Yes.
KERNER: You ask a lot of men, you know, do you think your wife is capable of having an affair. So many men are immediately just going to say no.
BEHAR: No of course not.
KERNER: No way.
Meanwhile --
BEHAR: Meanwhile, they`re doing it.
But these two are true. Shows less tolerance of her partner`s friends and family, like the mother-in-law thing --
(CROSS TALK)
KERNER: Yes.
BEHAR: -- who`s probably is like, I don`t care about you anymore.
KERNER: Yes.
BEHAR: And I`m not going to be nice and I don`t like your cooking.
KERNER: Yes.
BEHAR: And that`s a sign that she`s not behaving herself.
(CROSS TALK)
KERNER: It is. She doesn`t care about your friends and family anymore.
BEHAR: Yes.
KERNER: She`s not going to put up fronts, whereas guys were probably always disconnected to begin with.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Right, so nobody notices the difference. And then prioritizes parenting and neglects the relationship with the guy. More about the kids.
KERNER: Yes, yes.
BEHAR: That`s a tip-off.
KERNER: Really becomes completely involved with the kids and will often stay just because of the kids but that becomes the major relationship.
BEHAR: Ok, now cheating -- forgiveness has a double standard.
KERNER: I think so.
BEHAR: Tell me about that, and then we`ll come back with more.
KERNER: Ok. I think if a man cheats in general, a woman is pressured by friends, by the media to forgive and forget, boys will be boys. But if a woman cheats, a guy is like, you know, you evil witch.
BEHAR: She`s a witch, yes.
KERNER: So I think that there`s a big double standard at play still.
BEHAR: Ok. Stay right there. We`ll continue with this rather interesting conversation in just a minute.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Still ahead on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Joy and her panel of comedians fix their sights on the day`s outrageous political stories.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with sex therapist Ian Kerner. You know, are you surprised to know that 70 percent of women claim to be addicted to porn?
KERNER: I said 17 percent.
BEHAR: 17 percent.
KERNER: Yes. I think that`s -- I mean A, addiction is such a strong word. I don`t think porn is even necessarily a problem, you know. It can become a problem but we get so alarmist about it. But I don`t think -- I don`t think that`s a true statistic.
BEHAR: I don`t care for it. It`s like Ron Jeremy on a loop, who needs it?
KERNER: I think 100 percent of men, 99 percent are into porn, but I`ve worked with so many women that I think to say 17 percent, one out of five, I think that that`s a misstatement.
BEHAR: Too high?
KERNER: Yes. I think some women it`s a difference between reading a book or watching TV. They may opt for TV if they`re feeling a little intellectually lazy on the self-pleasure front.
BEHAR: Right. Ok. What`s your advice to stop the cheating? What would you say, what should people do?
KERNER: You know, I think the main thing is -- I think the main thing that leads to cheating in a relationship is often boredom. And I think you have to get excited about your partner. You have to have some kind of --
BEHAR: But how? How?
KERNER: You have to start doing -- you can`t just let, you know, yourself get into a routine. Routine is the death of spontaneity. It`s the death of unpredictability and affairs are all about that spontaneity, that mystery.
So unless you find out a way to have fun with your partner so that it`s not just the same arguments, the same routines, I think routine is what leads to infidelity.
BEHAR: That`s true. And seriously, I think you need to talk to each other. When people talk to each other and have fun together they don`t think about cheating.
KERNER: You know what`s very interesting, in this CNN article I wrote, a lot women said before I would ever cheat I would just divorce the guy. I would really just leave. By the time I`m at the point of cheating --
BEHAR: They say that, but then --
KERNER: But the men would not -- a guy would not be like, I`m going to tell you before I go cheat.
BEHAR: What will they do instead?
KERNER: They`ll just go cheat.
BEHAR: They`ll just go do it.
KERNER: Until they get caught.
BEHAR: A woman shtoops (ph) the carpenter then make dinner.
All right. Here`s a Facebook question. Do lesbians cheat as much as straight women?
KERNER: Well, you know, the whole concept of the sex came from also the lesbian bed death is often gets talk about.
BEHAR: Tell the audience what lesbian bed death is.
KERNER: It`s the same thing -- it`s the same thing that heterosexual couples really go through.
BEHAR: You`re just in the bed watching TV and eating popcorn except when you have a man and a woman, the man usually wants it more, a little more. I think it`s genetic and biological.
But when two women who have shut down, forget it. There`s nobody there that`s going to say, come on, let`s go. Right? It`s true.
KERNER: Then you can really go watch a full --
BEHAR: Right? It`s true.
KERNER: Yes. You can really do the full DVD of "The Wire". You know, all full season.
BEHAR: All right. Now who feels more guilty after an affair? The woman or the man?
KERNER: You know, I think it depends on who`s getting caught. You know? Whoever is getting caught --
BEHAR: Whoever gets caught feels more guilty?
KERNER: Very often, I have found that, you know, the whole thing about the post-affair is like when you look at like John Edwards, there`s so many lies that usually happen after the affair.
BEHAR: Yes, lies like I could make a good president, for example. Even though look what I did. Yes, lies like that.
KERNER: So I think it just comes down to who`s going to be honest and transparent. If two people want to recover from infidelity, it`s just about committing to transparency and honesty. It`s not about forgiving and forgetting it`s about forgiving and remembering what happened --
BEHAR: Oh, very good words of wisdom.
Thank you Ian.
KERNER: You`re very welcome Joy.
BEHAR: And we`ll be right back. I hope you learned something.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Glenn Beck`s days at FOX may be numbered but that hasn`t stopped him from lashing out at Planned Parenthood and prostitutes on his radio show. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GLENN BECK: Stop just a second. Hookers? Oh. Who depends on Planned Parenthood? I`ve got 400 abortions that I have to have, I have to have these children aborted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: He`s so sensitive. FOX is going to have trouble replacing Beck with someone just as well informed. Might I suggest the Yule log. With me now to discuss this and other political stories in the news are the comedians and stars of the off Broadway show, Laughing Liberally, It Ain`t No Tea Party, John Fugelsang, Baratunde Thurston, and Negin Farsad. Easy for you to say.
JOHN FUGELSANG, ACTOR: A white guy, a black guy and a Muslim girl walk into a studio.
BARATUNDE THURSTON: Comedy gold.
BEHAR: Ok. Baratunde, can I call you Ba?
THURSTON: No, you can call me Baratunde.
BEHAR: All right. So, now, Beck says Planned Parenthood is only for hookers. Is this why he`s be - being throwing out the window from FOX.
FUGELSANG: No. He`s being thrown out the window because he`s scared off more sponsors than Lindsay Lohan at Betty Ford, that`s why he`s being scared off. But, no, in this specific case he was - he was - he was going off on something Lawrence O`Donnell did on his show on the other network about a friend of his who was helped by Planned Parenthood with her breast cancer. Beck didn`t listen to the whole sound bite. He just heard Lawrence O`Donnell tearing up reading this letter from a breast cancer survivor.
BEHAR: Yes.
FUGELSANG: . extolling Planned Parenthood and made it all about hookers, which is kind of funny because, when I think hookers and Republicans, they both pretend to care about working class males, so I guess there`s a (INAUDIBLE) somewhere.
NEGIN FARSAD, ACTRESS: What`s really funny about that is actually just yesterday Michelle Bachmann joined in on the fun and said that - that it - that LensCrafters, sorry, Planned Parenthood was like the LensCrafters of big abortion and I just thought.
BEHAR: Why? Why?
FARSAD: Did you .
BEHAR: Because they have a lot of stuff, a lot of people that they service?
FARSAD: That they serve, you know, you`re in and out in an hour, it`s easy. I don`t know what her metaphor was there but I would have gone with like Wal-Mart of big abortion or something like that.
BEHAR: But LensCrafters.
FARSAD: I`m glad that Planned Parenthood has made them so poetic, I guess.
THURSTON: No one ever knows what Michelle Bachmann`s metaphors are about so don`t feel bad.
FARSAD: Even she doesn`t.
BEHAR: Yes, she doesn`t.
FUGELSANG: This is - this is one of the reasons why, like, I`m proud to be part of a progressive comedy show because no one`s pro-abortion and the Republican party had six years controlling the White House, the House, and the Senate. When they could have defunded Planned Parenthood they didn`t feel like doing it. They`re doing it now because they know it will never get out of the house and it`s just going to be good for the base.
BEHAR: Well, you`ll be happy to know that donations have surged for Planned Parenthood 500% since the Republicans threatened to - to cut federal funding from them.
FUGELSANG: And not one penny of taxpayer dollars go to abortions.
BEHAR: Which part of that, you know, the Hyde Amendment prohibits any federal funding for abortion. We know that.
THURSTON: And they know that too. Here`s a guy who`s lost 300 sponsors and 30% of his audience so he`s just flailing about, as he normally does anyway. Well, this is like an extreme version of extreme Beck. He called Mayor Landrieu a prostitute back during the healthcare debate which he got money for Louisiana.
BEHAR: The Governor of Louisiana?
THURSTON: Yes.
(INAUDIBLE)
BEHAR: He is unbelievable.
FARSAD: He was preoccupied with hookers.
THURSTON: He`s got a women issue, oh, must be a prostitute, like that`s his thing.
BEHAR: Maybe it`s his thing, prostitutes. Yes.
THURSTON: Maybe we`re learning a bit more about crazy Beck.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Ok.
FUGELSANG: If Glenn Beck was any more unbalanced he`d be cubist, hanging in the mess.
BEHAR: By the way, abortion accounts for only 3% of Planned Parenthood`s health services. Ok. I mean, really.
FUGELSANG: But, these are people who are pro-death penalty, pro- torture, pro-unmanned drone bombs, pro-preemptive war, oh, pro-life. You know, give me a break.
BEHAR: But they also seem to be chipping away at Rowe v. Wade all over the place on that count. I don`t really want John Boehner in my uterus. I`m just saying.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Next up, today marks the 150th anniversary of the start of the Civil War and a new poll shows that one in four Americans sympathizes more with the Confederacy than the Union.
THURSTON: So, these are the same Americans who demand that we uphold the Constitution without ever having read it? Kind of makes perfect sense. It turns out that if you actually look at the Civil War`s history, a quarter of Union soldiers were from southern states. This whole idea that this was some kind of popular war, even in the South, is not true.
BEHAR: Well, a lot of people died. A lot of people. I think we lost more Americans in the Civil War than in any other war.
FUGELSANG: Yes. It was our bloodiest war but, again, these people who are supporting it now are the big patriots and what could be more patriotic than quitting America because you want to keep people as pets. I mean, essentially, that`s what it was about.
THURSTON: It`s a celebration of - of traitors.
BEHAR: Yes.
FARSAD: And I don`t know that it would have been so popular if they knew that the South would turn out to be a region that embraces truck nuts. I mean, like that, I mean I`ve seen some awesome things in the South and met some awesome people. But, sometimes - you know, when you`re driving around the region you just see male genitals dangling off a bumper in front of you and then you just wonder what happened.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You put that down that should be a (INAUDIBLE).
THURSTON: (INAUDIBLE) and willing to go for that, like, that`s what we`ve got (INAUDIBLE).
BEHAR: But, you know, it`s interesting because 42% of the people polled said the war was fought over states` rights and not slavery. Do you buy that?
FUGELSANG: No, it`s the right to keep people as livestock. That`s the rights they`re talking about.
BEHAR: It`s all about money. It was all the economy and labor - it was free.
THURSTON: This is, again, we have - but, we have the most amazing tools to like at history. We have all these books of digitized, all this - we never look back. The Mississippi state secession charter, the first line is, basically we`re doing this because of slavery, it`s the most important institution in the world.
You can`t separate slavery even though there were other issues, slavery was at the centerpiece of. These were rich southern men who not only oppressed black people, they oppressed poor white people who made up most of the population. And the idea that we`re empowering the people represented today want to go back to this time, where they were more oppressed is a perfect representation of the Republican party agenda today.
BEHAR: That`s - that`s ironic though because poor white people, poor black people are the ones who are oppressed by the right wing in this country but they don`t seem to get that.
FUGELSANG: No. Because they have Glenn Beck.
BEHAR: They (INAUDIBLE) their own interests all the time.
FARSAD: Every time.
BEHAR: What`s the matter with candor? What`s that .
FUGELSANG: This is - this is nothing new and I`m half southern, I love the South, my family`s down South but I always say to people who love the Confederate flag, don`t you want to be better than your ancestors? Don`t you believe that that`s our purpose?
FARSAD: And the answer is no. The answer is truck nuts.
FUGELSANG: Both spiritually and.
(LAUGHTER)
FUGELSANG: To me displaying the Confederate flag is like displaying the picture of that chick you shacked up while you were separated from your wife for a while. You know, it`s like May Pang for John Lennon. You`re better than that South.
BEHAR: Ok, Let`s move on to something else because Obama, President Obama whom, you know, I support, I love Obama, I think he`s doing a fabulous job, he`s not perfect but I still think he`s a very good President and he`s very, very bright. Only 37% of the liberal base strongly approve of his performance.
FUGELSANG: He`s not (INAUDIBLE).
BEHAR: Are you guys turning on Obama?
FUGELSANG: No. President Obama went to Net Roots Nation, you were there, and he said in his - in his televised address, "I want you guys to keep on my case and keep my feet to the fire." Some people are criticizing Obama because they want him to be re-elected. Yes. The guy caved on the public option and on the tax (INAUDIBLE). He`s caved so many times there`s miners trapped inside of him he`s caved so many times. But.
BEHAR: Yes. I don`t like the fact that he caved on the public option. I thought that was really giving into them.
FUGELSANG: . well, and - and - and (INAUDIBLE).
BEHAR: I have a girl who comes and helps me work out. She and her husband have no health insurance. How could that be? How could they not have health insurance?
FUGELSANG: How can we not have the same kind of health insurance our capitalist allies have in Europe?
THURSTON: We spend - we spend more.
BEHAR: Oh, they call that socialism.
FUGELSANG: Exactly. And if you - if you don`t want to save American lives, stop calling yourself a patriot.
THURSTON: I, actually, I don`t think there`s any shortage of liberals criticizing Obama. I - I don`t - I think some have really great legitimate reasons and others don`t necessarily know how to have nice things. Like, you also have to look at the great things that this President has done.
FUGELSANG: Yes.
THURSTON: . and appreciate that.
BEHAR: Yes.
THURSTON: . because I think that we are so focused, like, if you look at how the Republicans treat their people, they - a lot of people weren`t happy with Bush but it wasn`t fully out in the street all the time.
FARSAD: No. Never. They were .
THURSTON: (INAUDIBLE) .
FUGELSANG: But the Republicans - but the Republicans, in fairness, are more organized. They`re more together (INAUDIBLE).
(CROSSTALK)
FARSAD: They never say anything bad about their President. The guy was, like, vomiting on Prime Ministers. The next day they were like, oh, that`s just like a new tool we`re using in international diplomacy.
(CROSSTALK)
FUGELSANG: But even Bush II, George II was spending money like Lindsay Lohan in Amsterdam and they still didn`t - no one cared. I think .
FARSAD: Yes.
FUGELSANG: .in the case of Obama, you know, we want to be hard on the guy but, at the same time, he never pretended to be a liberal. He`s always been a moderate. You know (INAUDIBLE) F.D.R. but he`s Patton.
BEHAR: (INAUDIBLE) the fact that he needs to get the middle on his side for the next election and that may be where he`s working and maybe in the second term he`ll really be radical left.
THURSTON: Well, I don`t think he can .
BEHAR: Could happen.
THURSTON: .. govern with the idea that you`ll do something different later.
FUGELSANG: You know, but a lot of guys do that.
BEHAR: You have to get reelected in this country.
THURSTON: You do have to get reelected but you also, when you have the power, you have to use it because you might not -- you`re not guaranteed that second opportunity.
BEHAR: I know.
THURSTON: If he gets in and I really want to work hard to make sure .
BEHAR: Ok. Well, maybe .
FUGELSANG: He should hire us to be his advisors.
BEHAR: I`ve got to go you guys. Thanks very much. It`s hard to make jokes about him, though, isn`t it?
FUGELSANG: He`s not a buffoon but, you know what, there`s enough douche bags around him you can make a lot of jokes.
BEHAR: Yes. That`s true.
THURSTON: And this - and you can make jokes about the environment that`s around him which involves .
FUGELSANG: And he`s a nerd, we can make fun of nerds.
BEHAR: He is a nerd. I love that about him. I love the nerds. He is a tall skinny nerd. I love that type. Thank you guys very much. Laughing Liberally, This Ain`t No Tea Party is at the Midtown Theater in New York City and it runs through May 22nd. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: You can see Harvey Fierstein every night on Broadway in La Cage aux Folles and you can see him every day in Forgotten Woman trying on muumuus. Joining me now is .
HARVEY FIERSTEIN, ACTOR: I`m a Lane Bryant - I`m a Lane Bryant reject.
BEHAR: You are? Joining me now is four time Tony winner and star of La Cage aux Folles, Harvey Fierstein.
FIERSTEIN: Hi Joy.
BEHAR: You don`t say Fierstein?
FIERSTEIN: No. No. My father said Fierstein, my mother who is an English teacher pronounced Fierstein and my brother pronounced it Fierstein.
BEHAR: Oh. So.
FIERSTEIN: So, I figured this way we don`t fight over anything real. We fight over that.
BEHAR: It`s a reality show.
FIERSTEIN: It is. It`s a reality show. We`re back to the Kardashians with no asses.
BEHAR: Ok. You - you know, you - to me you are a great performer. I - Hairspray does not make it without you, frankly, even though I love the show. You are the show and Travolta tried but he was too girly.
FIERSTEIN: Well he was in - what do you do when you are in a rubber suit? It was like watching - it was like watching a Teletubby perform.
BEHAR: Yes. It - it was.
FIERSTEIN: It was very strange.
BEHAR: But, he - he tried to do .
FIERSTEIN: I think if he wanted to do the Teletubby story, you know, he should have done that.
BEHAR: Yours was a , you know, it`s - it`s ironic, but, yours was a masculine rendition. You - you are not like a girl. You are a guy.
FIERSTEIN: A woman. I was a woman.
BEHAR: It was weird the way you did it but I loved it. And his was - although he is a good dancer.
FIERSTEIN: Yes. He is a very good dancer and he`s a 400 pound woman. It didn`t call for a good dancer.
BEHAR: That`s true.
FIERSTEIN: It`s like I`m sitting there watching him and he`s kicking his legs in the air, going, what 400 pound woman do you know that can do that and did you not notice you wearing the Teletubby suit?
BEHAR: Again, I know. I know.
FIERSTEIN: You know what, they sent me a check. I was happy.
BEHAR: I`m sure you were. What do you care?
FIERSTEIN: And I got to stay home.
BEHAR: Uh-huh. Now, do you watch Dancing With The Stars?
FIERSTEIN: No, I don`t.
BEHAR: Oh, you don`t?
FIERSTEIN: But, let`s talk about it anyway. Because, you know what, I`m well informed.
BEHAR: Only because Kirstie Alley is very accident prone, the girl.
FIERSTEIN: You know - well, you know that I got - I got an Emmy nomination for playing her boyfriend on Cheers.
BEHAR: Oh.
FIERSTEIN: . she was not too - she was not accident prone. You know, listen, live performance is about having accidents.
BEHAR: Right.
FIERSTEIN: I mean, though, if you`re going to do that stuff. I mean, that stuff is dangerous.
BEHAR: Yes. Have you ever had one?
FIERSTEIN: A lot of them. The other night, Saturday night. There`s a thing in La Cage where I jump up on the chaise and then I climb up on the back of the chaise and then my husband has to come rescue me.
BEHAR: Yes.
FIERSTEIN: But, I was kind of tired so I - as I was approaching it, dancing towards it, I thought, give it a little extra. I overshot the whole thing. I leapt over the whole thing like a gazelle.
BEHAR: Did you hurt yourself?
FIERSTEIN: No, I landed on my high heels, like a cat - like a cat.
BEHAR: See, you`re such a girl, you`re a real girl.
FIERSTEIN: Well, I think it takes a real man to land on your high heels like that. So, yeah, I landed and we sort of looked at each other and my - and Christopher said, "Are you all right?" and I said, "Let`s go," and off we danced.
BEHAR: And you were ready to keep going. You`re a trooper.
FIERSTEIN: Yes. Oh yeah, I mean, live performing means getting hurt .
BEHAR: Yes.
FIERSTEIN: . and there`s that wonderful song in Chorus Line, What I Did For Love, when that dancer really gets hurt because it does, it happens to you all the time. So, I think Kirstie should probably sing What I Did For Love and have them come in with a stretcher and carry her off.
BEHAR: But you know what.
FIERSTEIN: I bet, you know, it`s never been done, she could win, she could get points for that.
BEHAR: . when the number one Marie Osmond fainted the ratings shot up. Every time someone has an accident.
FIERSTEIN: And Cloris Leachman had a sex change and (INAUDIBLE) was good. She did that (INAUDIBLE) number.
BEHAR: Now, I want to show you a recent print ad from J. Crowe. Look at this ad. It`s very interesting. It`s causing a stir. If you can`t - it`s far away from you but what it is is a mother who is really the owner of J. Crew. She`s putting pink nail polish on her little boy. He`s around 4 or 5 years old.
FIERSTEIN: That`s a terrible thing to do because a 4 or 5 year old boy really should be wearing lavender. That`s not good because pink is the wrong message. Pink is saying, "I may not be playing ball today," but lavender, "I could go either way."
BEHAR: Well the mother - the mother is saying, "Lucky for me I ended up with a boy whose favorite color is pink."
FIERSTEIN: That`s - that`ll sell. You see, you can`t deny. When I was a kid, listen, you cannot mess with people`s gender. You know, if you could mess with people`s gender, why would we - why would there be heterosexuals? You know, I mean, because who needs them, right? You know, you`re a boy, she`s a girl, what would you talk - what would you talk about? I say to my son in La Cage, "You are a boy, she is a girl, what will you talk about?"
BEHAR: I see the point, because they have less in common.
FIERSTEIN: Exactly. You know, come together, have babies, and then move on with your life. So. But, I was a kid, I grew up in the same household as my brother. My brother played baseball and his favorite thing was trucks as little kids.
BEHAR: Yes.
FIERSTEIN: I wanted a baby doll. I wanted a baby doll, I want a carriage, I wanted the whole thing and my mother said, (INAUDIBLE). Go. (INAUDIBLE).
BEHAR: She was - she was accepting of it?
FIERSTEIN: She was accepting because she knew you couldn`t change it. You know, you -- you - you can fight it. You can make somebody ashamed of who they are but you will end up with a serial killer.
BEHAR: And that`s why you are the woman you are today.
FIERSTEIN: Well, a very rich woman.
BEHAR: A very rich woman.
FIERSTEIN: Don`t leave that part out.
BEHAR: I `m not going to leave that out.
FIERSTEIN: When I was - when I was young, somebody said, "Do your mother`s friends accept you?" And I`d say, "I buy them dinner, they accept whatever." It`s the way the world works. This is America.
BEHAR: Ok. All right. Let`s talk about gay marriage because in a recent poll 58% of New Yorkers seem to favor gay marriage, 65% were Democrats and 45% were Republicans.
FIERSTEIN: 67% of Catholics, because I know you`re a nice Italian girl, 67% of Catholics are pro-gay marriage.
BEHAR: Accept it.
FIERSTEIN: Are actually for legalized marriage.
BEHAR: Wow.
FIERSTEIN: That is my thing about the whole gay movement at this moment. We have openly, the gay population, been raising children now for about 30 years. You know when I wrote Torts and when I wrote La Cage, which both had gay adoption in it, it was more closed but, for 30 years now we have been raising these children. I think it`s time for gay people to sit back and let our kids do the work.
BEHAR: Right.
FIERSTEIN: You know, let them. You want your mother and mother married, you do the work. (INAUDIBLE). That`s what I say.
BEHAR: Yes. But I don`t think it`s a political issue any more. It tends to be losing that.
FIERSTEIN: Exactly.
BEHAR: They use it.
FIERSTEIN: But, it was a great way to raise money, it`s a great way to raise money for these horrible churches and these - these terrible people. I mean, listen, I know, like I said, you`re a lovely Italian person, but, the Catholic Church.
BEHAR: I know, they - they`re crude a lot.
FIERSTEIN: . the Jesuits just paid $780 million to families of rape children.
BEHAR: I know.
FIERSTEIN: I hate that - I hate that, abused children. It isn`t rape. You raped these children.
BEHAR: $780 million.
FIERSTEIN: $780 million. Not one of those priests, all of who were pederasts, they sent them up to the Northwest because they were pederasts to go rape Eskimos. Not one of them has ever gone to jail, never spent a day behind bars, and you`re going to tell me you`re moral and you are going to tell me what`s moral?
BEHAR: I know. Exactly. It`s outrageous. Well, they`re losing parishioners all over the place.
FIERSTEIN: Yes. Well, but, I`m saying you have to stand back and say, "Who is this individual?" And that`s really what it`s about.
BEHAR: Right.
FIERSTEIN: And as far as gay marriage and all that, as anyone can tell you, marriage is about property. You know, you really know what marriage is about when you hit the divorce.
BEHAR: Well, I just went to a lawyer recently to get my papers in order, my living will and all that crap.
FIERSTEIN: Right.
BEHAR: . I really just don`t approve of death and I say I`m going on vacation when I have these meetings. And, oh, I`m going to be going on vacation someday and the - the woman said to me, "You should get married because it`s better financially for your children if you get married." She said, "This is why gays want to get married, it`s about the money."
FIERSTEIN: Well, it is.
BEHAR: Yes. It`s about the money.
FIERSTEIN: . about property. Holy matrimony has nothing to do with the government. The government is not in the holy business.
BEHAR: No.
FIERSTEIN: That`s for your church, that`s for your soul, that`s for your - for your synagogue or whatever but the government is about property rights.
BEHAR: Exactly. Ok. We`ll have more with the great Harvey Fierstein on the way. Sit tight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Harvey. You know, Harvey, why is it more acceptable in film for a straight guy to play a gay man, which you see it constantly, Brokeback Mountain, etc., and a gay actor can`t play a gay character. What is that about?
FIERSTEIN: It`s - it`s very - it`s self loathing. It`s really self loathing.
BEHAR: Yes. But it`s the industry, not the guy.
FIERSTEIN: No, no, no. It`s self loathing in our industry. We`ve gotten to the point now where we say, "Oh yes, we can tell our stories, but I don`t want to see no gay guy do that. It`s got to be a heterosexual."
BEHAR: Yes.
FIERSTEIN: It`s got to be a heterosexual. But, look, Richard Chamberlain who`s been out of the closet now for about 10-15 years said.
BEHAR: That`s all?
FIERSTEIN: .. .said - well, out of the closet.
BEHAR: Throw the brick aside.
FIERSTEIN: You know what falls out the back is not your business. The - but, even he said, just a couple of months ago, said if you want a - if you want a career you need to stay in the closet. Now.
BEHAR: He said that?
FIERSTEIN: You know, I`ve never been in the closet. I have no idea what it`s like to lie about that part of your life.
BEHAR: Lucky you. Because I think that must be a horrible thing.
FIERSTEIN: It must be a horrible thing to lie and daily be frightened. I remember there was a very big television star who would threaten to sue you if you said he was gay. I think he is now openly gay.
BEHAR: Who`s that?
FIERSTEIN: The guy from Will and Grace, what was his name?
BEHAR: Sean.
FIERSTEIN: Sean. Yes. He would actually threaten you. This was when Will and Grace were first on the air.
BEHAR: But he`s out now.
FIERSTEIN: But now he`s out.
BEHAR: Yes. Yes.
FIERSTEIN: So - so, he has, like Obama, he has - he has learned.
BEHAR: Is there anyone on television you think you should that - should be out and they`re not?
FIERSTEIN: Anybody on television who should be out and they`re not.
BEHAR: Male or female.
FIERSTEIN: I don`t know. I`m in love with all the guys on True Blood but they`re dead. They`re all vampires.
BEHAR: Ok.
FIERSTEIN: Do you really want a vampire, it`s like, why out a vampire.
BEHAR: I have to do - I have to do - wait a second, we have to do La Cage before you leave.
FIERSTEIN: Yes. We have to talk about La Cage.
BEHAR: So, let`s see.
FIERSTEIN: You`ve got to (INAUDIBLE).
BEHAR: You wrote the (INAUDIBLE).
FIERSTEIN: I wrote that - I wrote the show 28 years ago. See, there`s me doing I Am What I Am.
BEHAR: Did they pad you there because you look so much fatter than you are?
FIERSTEIN: No, no, no, it`s a sort of round - yes, it`s a -- the clothing has - the clothing has shape to it.
BEHAR: Yes. Because you`re not heavy like that. You`re just a.
FIERSTEIN: Here I am as Barbara Bush with (INAUDIBLE) and that`s what I look like in most of the show. I`m a pretty woman.
BEHAR: . you`re so adorable.
FIERSTEIN: I am a pretty woman. But, yes, I wrote the show 28 years ago. When you think about it, you know, it was so shocking that I wrote a show where this gay couple had raised this child, he`s 24 years old now and he`s going to get married and they were the normal couple and the heterosexual couple that he`s going to marry into that family were the strange ones.
BEHAR: Right. They were weird.
FIERSTEIN: And now, 28 years later, all this good stuff has happened and, yet, gay marriage is still a dream in many places. There`s still all this arguing about gay adoption and - and all that. So, it`s - it`s sort of funny.
BEHAR: When you wrote this, the musical on Broadway.
FIERSTEIN: Yes.
BEHAR: . who wrote the movie.
FIERSTEIN: The original movie was written by Jean Poiret.
BEHAR: A French guy.
FIERSTEIN: A French guy.
BEHAR: And then who wrote the screen play for Robin Williams and Nathan Lane.
FIERSTEIN: I think Elaine May wrote that one.
BEHAR: Oh, seriously. And - and Mike Nichols.
FIERSTEIN: Mike Nichols directed it.
BEHAR: Oh, that`s a good one too. What`s it called again?
FIERSTEIN: I don`t know. It`s not La Cage and I don`t get .
BEHAR: Birdcage.
FIERSTEIN: .I don`t get any money from it so I don`t care.
BEHAR: Birdcage.
FIERSTEIN: I don`t get any money from it so I don`t care.
BEHAR: Stop that.
FIERSTEIN: I don`t get any money from it so I don`t care.
BEHAR: Birdcage. The Tony winning Broadway revival of.
FIERSTEIN: Do you know how many people come up to me and go, "I loved you in The Birdcage," and I say, "That`s not me." And, I said to Nathan Lane, "Has anybody come up to you and said, "I loved you in Torts?" and went, "No."
BEHAR: Ok, the revival of La Cage aux Folles is playing now through May 1st only at the Longacre Theater in New York City.
FIERSTEIN: Longacre Theater on 48th Street.
BEHAR: Yes.
FIERSTEIN: You can`t miss it. I sing daily.
BEHAR: You`ve got to catch it now. Thank you all for watching. Good night everybody.
END
