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Joy Behar Page
Interview With Kara Dioguardi; Interview With Gilbert Gottfried
Aired April 27, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Last year, Kara Dioguardi left her job as a judge on "American Idol" and this past march Gilbert Gottfried was fired from his job as the AFLAC duck. They`re both here today and you`ll see how wonderfully they`ve rebounded brilliantly and with class, dignity and poise.
I, however, was fired from my receptionist job of "Good Morning America" in 1982 and I still can`t let it go. It`s said, isn`t it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, former "American Idol" judge, Kara Dioguardi gives Joy behind-the-scenes dish about her rollercoaster tenure on the hit show, as well as how she overcame sexual abuse to become a huge success.
Then on the heels of the President`s birth certificate release, TV host Tavis Smiley explains why he said the 2012 presidential election will be the most racist campaign ever.
Plus we all remember when Gilbert Gottfried was fired as the voice of AFLAC after making controversial Japan tsunami jokes. Tonight, the firebrand comedian gives Joy his take on the story.
That and more starting right now.
BEHAR: Kara Dioguardi is a Grammy-nominated songwriter and record executive whose hit songs have appeared on albums by the likes of Celine Dion, Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera but she`s perhaps best known for her polarizing stint as the fourth judge on "American Idol". Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KARA DIOGUARDI, FORMER JUDGE, "AMERICAN IDOL": The only thing I wish is it`s a little bit lighter, playful. That`s the only thing. You get very serious. But the vocal was fire. It really was.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you very much.
SIMON COWELL, FORMER JUDGE, "AMERICAN IDOL": When you say playful, I mean what do you want?
DIOGUARDI: It`s just --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Well, he has a way with the ladies, doesn`t he? Kara dishes about the backstage drama on the show and a lot more in her book "A Helluva High Note: Surviving life, love and `American Idol`". And with me now is the very talented Miss Kara Dioguardi.
DIOGUARDI: So good to see you.
BEHAR: Yes. Good to see you too. But you know, when I watch that, he`s annoying, Simon. But he also was the reason I would watch the show.
DIOGUARDI: Of course. Of course.
BEHAR: And right now, I don`t know, how do you feel about the show right now?
DIOGUARDI: I haven`t seen it that much but what I have seen, it looks like they`re having fun. I`m a big Steven Tyler fan. I actually wrote --
BEHAR: His music or his obsession with young women?
DIOGUARDI: His music. I don`t know about his obsession with young women.
BEHAR: He`s always flirting with all the girls that come on.
DIOGUARDI: He`s a rock star, man. Rock stars are like -- that`s their thing.
BEHAR: I guess.
DIOGUARDI: About a year ago I got a call from a friend of mine who said, Marty Frederickson (ph), who said I`m going to come over right now so we can write a song, I`m with Steven Tyler. And I was like, what? You`re bringing Steven Tyler to my house right now? I`m throwing on makeup. I`m like -- what have I got to eat? You know, bringing down the Yamaha keyboard. And Steven Tyler walks into my house and I`m just like, you know, dying.
BEHAR: Yes.
DIOGUARDI: Because he was a hero of mine and he starts playing "Dream On" and we write this song together and I said to myself, this is a guy who would be a great replacement and I actually called the producer. So I think he`s great. He brings a lot of life to the show, and they look like they`re having a good time.
BEHAR: Well, yes. They look like they`re having a good time. I`m not a music person, I don`t know from music, I only know what I like to listen to. So without somebody there with a real critical eye, I can`t tell if the person is really good or not because they all sound the same to me.
DIOGUARDI: Well, I think as artists it`s probably also harder to kind of judge other artists because you`re in the same boat, in the same way that someone would be judging you.
BEHAR: But maybe that`s why Simon and you and Randy were right for the situation.
DIOGUARDI: Well, I can`t speak for the current judges, but I know for me that how I got better in my career was when people were really critical. And they told me what I wasn`t doing. Because in the music business it`s so competitive and you have to write so many songs and go through so much crap to get where you are that that pushed me. And I got better.
And actually on "American Idol", you know, Season 8 was really difficult for me and I talk about that in the book. I was someone who came from behind the scenes. I`d never been on television. I didn`t even know where the cameras were. I mean it was a nightmare.
BEHAR: Did anybody help you?
DIOGUARDI: Not really. That`s where the reality TV comes in. But by doing it, and keeping it going and listening to feedback, talking to Simon, I`d say, what am I not doing? He`d be like, stop being so serious. I thought it was a music show, but it was a TV show.
BEHAR: Right.
DIOGUARDI: I needed to be more entertaining but I couldn`t find my role because really my role was an industry expert. When have you seen experts be really entertaining?
BEHAR: You came in when basically there was Paula, Randy and Simon there. Now they throw a fourth judge in there. I was reading that you really didn`t feel comfortable and the audience didn`t seem to take to that idea. But you were there for two seasons.
DIOGUARDI: I was there for two seasons. I don`t think people really understood what I did. And you know, in my book, "A Helluva High Note" deals with my back story, that I was a songwriter, that I spent years trying to hone my craft and being rejected and then finally becoming a successful songwriter, record executive and publisher.
And there was no back story. It was like they pulled some girl off the street who looked kind of like Paula Abdul, who was supposed to take over Paula Abdul. So that setup wasn`t exactly a great one.
BEHAR: No, because Paula was popular.
DIOGUARDI: Of course, Paula was great. She was the heart. And I was never trying to take anyone down, I was just trying to do my job and trying to figure out how to do it.
BEHAR: You know something. That is a bad position to be in. I remember when Deborah Norville took over for Jane Pauley on "The Today Show" and everybody hated Deborah Norville. She`s a nice person, so was of course was Jane. But she couldn`t really shake that. It`s not nice --
DIOGUARDI: It`s really difficult to break up the Beatles. But I have to say through it all I`m so glad I did "American Idol". I faced every fear I ever had. Stage fright, and I came through it, and I`m stronger and better for it. So I have nothing bad to say about the show.
BEHAR: No, of course.
DIOGUARDI: It was more -- it was really difficult to go from the studio, behind the scenes, to like, oh, my God, what side do I -- I remember the first time I got an autograph. Do I sign on my boobs? Do I sign on my face? I didn`t even know what to do. It was getting used to it.
BEHAR: What about Paula and Simon, did they get along with each other?
DIOGUARDI: They did. I think that they had a really good chemistry. She was the heart of the show, meaning she gave people second, third, fourth chances.
BEHAR: Oh, I know.
DIOGUARDI: And I think America loved that about her.
BEHAR: That`s what Jennifer Lopez does, too, doesn`t she? She`s also very easy on everybody.
DIOGUARDI: And I think there are two sides to the story. It`s some people think you need to nurture artists and some people feel that that nurturing comes from a critical stance. So you kind of had them both battling it out. And we were really hurt in Season 9 when Paula left, because Paula was a yes vote on the auditions.
BEHAR: She also was a train wreck.
DIOGUARDI: I don`t know if she was a train wreck, but --
BEHAR: She was. I mean everybody, she was loopy half the time and people thought she was --
DIOGUARDI: She was fun. You know, she got caught up in the moment, which I wish I could have gotten more caught up in the moment. I was kind of caught up in the oh, my God get this camera off me and get it on to Paula. I was like, it`s very nice. Paula, what do you think? Like I just wanted it off me. Get off.
BEHAR: I know. But people just thought she was drinking and doing drugs. Was she?
DIOGUARDI: I never saw her do -- you know, and I lived in her house when I first met her. I never saw her touch a drug. I never saw her smoke a cigarette or even drink.
I mean I know she`s talked about prescription pills in the past, but I can`t speak about that. But what I can say is we were hurt in Season 9 that she wasn`t there and I feel like at the end of the day they should have paid her what she wanted.
BEHAR: Ok. Well, I agree with that. They could have kept her there.
DIOGUARDI: Yes.
BEHAR: But you know, the business just can be cruel. Very cruel. Did you quit or did they fire you? What`s the story there?
DIOGUARDI: So when I woke up, I was summer vacation at coastal Maine and after Ellen had left, the next morning I woke up to reports that I`d been fired. And it was like, you know, somebody shot me or something. It`s that feeling of -- fired? I`ve never been fired in my life. It kind of brought back every rejection, you know, when I got my heart broken by a boy or whatever. And I called the producers and I said, I`m reading reports that I`ve been fired. Have I been fired?
BEHAR: Yes.
DIOGUARDI: And they said no. And I said, well what is this coming from? Why would it be on the Internet? They said, well, Ellen leaving has really upset the whole panel. We were looking for a replacement for Simon and now we have to look for two replacements. So things are up in it the air.
And I said, so you`re telling me that I may or may not be on the show? And they said, it`s, you know, it`s uncertain. You may be on it, you may not be. It`s like 50/50, 60/40.
And at that time I felt like I pushed back my schedule already twice, I had three other jobs, I couldn`t keep my life on hold. And I`ve always been somebody who controls their own destiny and it was just time to leave. So I sent a letter, my manager sent a letter.
BEHAR: So you basically quit.
DIOGUARDI: Yes. And said please release me from my contract.
BEHAR: You know, your book is filled with all sorts of things: sexual abuse, eating disorders, date rape. I want to talk about some of that when we come back.
DIOGUARDI: Yes.
BEHAR: So stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with songwriter and former "American Idol" judge Kara Dioguardi. Now you write in the book how when you were 11 years old you were repeatedly molested by an older guy. How old was he? And you were 11 and he was what?
DIOGUARDI: He was about 18.
BEHAR: Eighteen, well, that`s -- that`s an adult.
DIOGUARDI: Nineteen or eighteen, 18.
BEHAR: Now, you know, you say he was the teen-aged son of a family friend in the book. He sounds like he`s really an adult; 18 votes, 18 goes to war.
DIOGUARDI: I think he was going -- it happened in college and when he was going in. Yes.
BEHAR: Tell me what happened.
DIOGUARDI: Well, he was -- we used to play monster, it was called. And one day, or hide and seek kind of thing where you`d run around and hide. And one day it kind of turned into what I say in "Helluva High Note" is to hide, seek and touch.
And you don`t really know what`s going on at that age.
BEHAR: Right.
DIOGUARDI: You kind of like whoa, hold on, what is this? And I -- I did speak to my mother about it and unfortunately it was a time when I think there were no Oprahs, it was still kind of repressed in the culture about speaking about these things, and she was --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: What year was this? Do you remember?
DIOGUARDI: Well, it was probably `81.
BEHAR: 1981?
DIOGUARDI: Yes.
So it was something that she really couldn`t handle. And I think as a kid, you process that as, I`m not good enough, or something`s wrong with me.
But you know, the good news is that before she died we spoke about it and since I`ve written the book, her friends have called me and said, this was something that weighed on her. Like you know, in her life.
BEHAR: She probably just was not capable of dealing with it.
DIOGUARDI: She was not capable of dealing with it. But it did and --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: What about your father? Where was he?
DIOGUARDI: He didn`t -- I didn`t discuss this with him.
BEHAR: You just went to your mother.
DIOGUARDI: Yes.
BEHAR: It`s not that she didn`t believe you, she just didn`t do anything about it.
DIOGUARDI: She didn`t know what to do. She did not know how to handle it.
BEHAR: Well, what -- what do you think she should have done?
DIOGUARDI: Spoken to her friend and said, look, you know, this is what happened.
BEHAR: Your son`s -- your son`s a pervert.
DIOGUARDI: This is what happened. You know? I think I worry sometimes that because I didn`t say anything, you know, I hope this has never happened again with anybody else.
But it was something my mother just couldn`t really handle. And it definitely affected -- you know, part of this book is to -- to show people that song-writing is really about the truth. And when -- when people ask me, why did you tell everything? Songwriters tell the truth.
BEHAR: Right.
DIOGUARDI: That`s what they do in their songs. Their currency is the truth. And because I had these things happen to me as a kid, I got into some not so great relationships. And that`s where songs like Kelly Clarkson`s "Walk Away" came from.
BEHAR: You wrote that?
DIOGUARDI: Yes. Or my eating disorder, when I -- when I wrote "Sober" with Pink, I had something to pull upon. So the book is kind of an autobiography through these songs, to show people that songwriters pull from their own truth and that`s where a lot of those songs come from.
BEHAR: Right.
DIOGUARDI: And that not all the artists write their songs. They can co-write and I hope that it`s fascinating for people to see that that`s actually a job.
BEHAR: Do you think Irving Berlin had traumas?
DIOGUARDI: Oh, my God. I don`t know about that. But I could tell you I`ve met -- most songwriters have traumas. I`ve got to tell you. A lot of us have them.
BEHAR: And then --
(CROSSTALK)
DIOGUARDI: How about comedic? Comedian --
BEHAR: No, not necessarily traumas, but we were always the outsiders. Comedians are the outsiders.
DIOGUARDI: Right.
BEHAR: We have something -- something`s wrong with us. The ears stick out, my hair was really weird --
(CROSSTALK)
DIOGUARDI: Really?
BEHAR: -- some kids are fat.
DIOGUARDI: You have great hair, though.
BEHAR: Well, now I do because I have a Brazilian wax.
(CROSSTALK)
DIOGUARDI: Oh, the blowout.
BEHAR: The blowout.
DIOGUARDI: Ok, you have a Brazilian wax on your head, I`m not so sure about that one.
BEHAR: No that would be a problem.
DIOGUARDI: Yes that would really not look very good. Let`s keep that thing.
BEHAR: But most artists have all different kinds, have something. Have something.
DIOGUARDI: Of course. That`s the -- the fuel for the songs.
BEHAR: Yes.
DIOGUARDI: You know, have you ever -- someone`s first records, you fall in love with them, right? Then they get famous and they get rich and their music goes to pot. It`s like --
BEHAR: Not the Beatles though.
(CROSSTALK)
DIOGUARDI: No, I know. That is what is so incredible about the Beatles.
BEHAR: That never happens, the former, or the Rolling Stones -- they`re really great groups, that doesn`t happen.
DIOGUARDI: That didn`t -- that`s true.
BEHAR: Why is that?
DIOGUARDI: With Paul Simon, that didn`t happen.
BEHAR: No, Paul Simon is better than ever.
DIOGUARDI: I -- I just think that their dedication to the craft is --
BEHAR: Yes.
DIOGUARDI: -- so intense.
BEHAR: Here`s how stupid I was in college.
(CROSSTALK)
DIOGUARDI: No, you weren`t stupid.
BEHAR: Let me tell you something. I went to college with Paul Simon. He was a year ahead of me. All right? And I didn`t know who he was. He used to play the guitar on the library steps, the Clapper library, right?
DIOGUARDI: Right.
BEHAR: And then every year his fraternity would have follies and he would sing a song. And he was like, ok now Paul Simon is going to sing a song that he wrote and we`d go, oh, not again.
DIOGUARDI: Are you kidding me?
BEHAR: Not again.
DIOGUARDI: Are you joking?
BEHAR: Yes, I`m serious.
DIOGUARDI: Oh, wow. You know what --
BEHAR: And you know, a year later he was a superstar.
DIOGUARDI: Yes, you got that one wrong.
BEHAR: See, this is why I could never be a judge on "American Idol".
DIOGUARDI: No I mean, I -- I just say. Yes. No. If you passed up Paul Simon, then we`ve got to talk. I -- I saw him three weeks ago. I was at this event and he did a private --
BEHAR: Yes.
DIOGUARDI: And he stood up and sung hit after hit after hit. I mean, this guy has an incredible catalogue.
BEHAR: Brilliant.
DIOGUARDI: Brilliant.
BEHAR: Brilliant.
DIOGUARDI: And I asked him, I said, you know, because he taught at Berkeley and I said I`d love to do that. And he said it was difficult for him.
BEHAR: Where in Boston, Berkeley music?
DIOGUARDI: Yes. You know, it was difficult because he can`t write for everyone. It`s hard when you want someone to come up to your level and, you know, it`s hard for them to think the way he thinks, I think.
So to be a teacher for certain songwriters is troublesome when you`re that great.
BEHAR: Yes.
DIOGUARDI: How do you tell someone to write "Bridge over Troubled Water". I mean, it`s impossible.
BEHAR: I know, it`s hard. It`s hard.
DIOGUARDI: Yes.
BEHAR: Now let`s talk about some other terrible things that happened to you, because it`s in the book. And it`s interesting how you overcame all of it, really because you really have bounced back. Look at you, you`re beautiful, you`re talented.
(CROSSTALK)
DIOGUARDI: Well thank you.
BEHAR: You`re working, you have a new job I understand.
DIOGUARDI: I`ve got a great husband, too.
BEHAR: And you have a great husband.
DIOGUARDI: That was the greatest thing I did was pick the right -- I got myself --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Finally -- eventually you did.
DIOGUARDI: Yes.
BEHAR: That`s good. Good for you.
But in -- the year 2000 which is really not that long ago, you were -- you were date raped by a well-known music producer. When -- tell -- how did that happen?
DIOGUARDI: Well, I was working in Florida. And I was kind of on my own. I didn`t have any family or friends down there. And I was there for so many weeks and this person was around the studios and we would talk and he seemed friendly. And I felt, you know, kind of a warm feeling from him like he was safe and just a nice guy.
BEHAR: Yes, yes.
DIOGUARDI: He said well, let`s go have dinner. And I didn`t really think of it as a date, it was just more like, let`s continue talking about music and, you know, you`re -- you don`t live here and I`ll take you out.
So we went for dinner and then the next thing I knew he brought me back to my apartment and, you know, we started kind of kissing and then it was like I`m saying, ok, no, you know, and then no is just not being received.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: No is not --
DIOGUARDI: He just keeps going and going.
BEHAR: But that`s the mantra. What part of no don`t you understand?
DIOGUARDI: And because you know this person, you don`t think that it`s -- it`s going to get weird. And it gets weird. And finally, you know, he left and two days later -- I stayed in bed the next day. I was just in a state of shock. I didn`t know if I`d done something to cause it, that`s the thing about date rape is --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes. Well, because you brought him to the room --
DIOGUARDI: I was looking back, what did I wear?
BEHAR: Yes.
DIOGUARDI: He came to my apartment, did I ask for it? And it puts you in this place --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
DIOGUARDI: -- of almost believing that you did do something.
BEHAR: Right.
DIOGUARDI: But when you say no.
BEHAR: It means, you should mean it.
DIOGUARDI: That`s it.
BEHAR: And you know, guys -- guys, you know, this whole idea that a guy can`t stop, even in the middle of having sex, if you say, get off of me, I hate you, I hate you, get off. He should be able to do that.
DIOGUARDI: He should get off. And guess what? Most guys do. Most guys are great. This was just --
BEHAR: Most guys do. That`s right. So if they don`t.
DIOGUARDI: This is just a piece of crap dude, you know.
BEHAR: This is for girls listening, they should know that if you say "no" to somebody and he doesn`t stop, it`s his fault.
DIOGUARDI: 100 percent. It`s totally his fault. Why I discuss these things in the book is to let women know that this does happen, and I didn`t name the people because I don`t want it to be about them. I want it to be about the fact that there are a lot of people out there that have gone through this and you can get through it. And don`t ever let it -- it hurt your dreams or from achieving what you need to do.
BEHAR: Ok. We`re going to take a break. We`ll have more with Kara in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DIOGUARDI: (INAUDIBLE) Amber, the only thing that saved you was the melody in the "love it or hate it" part of your hook.
Love it or hate it, love it or hate it -- it`s one of the only things I remember out of this whole thing. Other than that, you would have been in last place.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That was Kara Dioguardi on her upcoming Bravo show "Platinum Hit".
You know, a lot of women talk about being sexually harassed in various industries. I mean I was sexually harassed when I was a school. You don`t have to be in the business.
DIOGUARDI: You don`t.
BEHAR: It`s a very funny story about my sexual harassment, though, I`ll tell you later.
DIOGUARDI: How the hell could that be funny? How the hell is that funny?
BEHAR: Because with me it was like --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I turned on him. There are ways to deal with it sometimes and humor is one of the ways.
But sometimes you`re in a position where you can`t, or you`re in a bank and you need your job and tell me what happened to you.
DIOGUARDI: Well, also when this was going on, I was trapped in upstate New York somewhere, and I just didn`t know what to do, you know. This was a big break for me.
BEHAR: You were writing music with this guy.
DIOGUARDI: Yes. And it just turned into this, you know, crazy thing where there were strippers and --
BEHAR: Strippers?
DIOGUARDI: Just nuts. All --
BEHAR: In the cabin upstate? Where`d they come from, the strippers?
DIOGUARDI: From the city. But, you know, it was just very uncomfortable, and I -- this was a big opportunity for me and I did not want to blow it. And I think through all these experiences, you know, whether it was the producer or the artist, you`re -- if you go and you blow the whistle it becomes about that, and then your career could be stopped. Then I would be known as the girl who, you know, tattletaled.
BEHAR: The informer.
DIOGUARDI: Yes. I had a lot of things I needed to accomplish. Music was saving me. It was keeping me healthy. And I wasn`t going to let any of these guys take that away from me.
BEHAR: Do you regret that, though, at all?
DIOGUARDI: I really, I don`t. The only regret I have is that I hope that no one else was affected. That maybe if I had blown the whistle, you know, it would save other people.
But in my heart I was just, you know, just getting healthy. Just feeling better about myself. And I knew music was the key to that and staying in that and doing that for my livelihood.
BEHAR: How do you emotionally work that out, the resentment and the anger?
DIOGUARDI: You know, you write. That`s how my songs were so important. I wrote about my feelings.
BEHAR: That`s your therapy.
DIOGUARDI: I would go into the studio some days not knowing how I was feeling and, you know, come out with Kelly Clarkson`s "Walk Away" and be like, "Damn, I`m really angry at this guy." Later, now, I can kind of remember that. I`m not in that place anymore. I`m in a good place. But I had to work through it.
That`s why I tell people if you`re not a songwriter, write a journal. Put your feelings out there. Tell somebody if you`ve been date raped. Don`t put it inside, pull it out, and you have nothing to be ashamed of.
BEHAR: Yes. Date rape is odd because you really, that was something from -- this is harassment. You don`t consider this date rape as sexual harassment?
DIOGUARDI: No, because it got physical at the end where I say in the book, he grabbed my hand and put it on his, you know, private thing. But I don`t feel it was -- it wasn`t rape. It was still not, you know, hey, it wasn`t fun. No harassment`s fun. But you know, I lived through it.
BEHAR: You`ve come up, you said I wake up and I`m the poster child for molestation. And then my family is going crazy. You know, like oh my God, I didn`t even know this, I`m anything but a victim. You said that in your book. You don`t feel like a victim.
DIOGUARDI: I do not. There isn`t a woman who`s gone through these things that did anything wrong. And this is hopefully to inspire other people to achieve their dreams.
BEHAR: Ok. Very good. Nice to have you here.
DIOGUARDI: I loved being with you. Thank you.
BEHAR: Kara`s book is called "A Helluva High Note". We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: President Obama answered the question about his birth certificate today. By showing it. Showing it. And reminding the country about what`s important. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We`re not going to be able to solve our problems if we get distracted by side shows and carnival barkers. We live in a serious time right now, and we have the potential to deal with the issues that we confront in a way that will make our kids and our grandkids and our great grandkids proud.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Correct me if I`m wrong but didn`t Donald Trump say that when Obama produced his birth certificate he would produce his tax statements? Waiting. OK. Here now to discuss this and other stories in the news is Tavis Smiley, host of "Tavis Smiley" on PBS and the author of a book "Fail Up." You know, do you think, Tavis, that he will produce his tax statements now? Donald?
TAVIS SMILEY, HOST, "TAVIS SMILEY" ON PBS: I don`t think that was ever the intent. This is about appealing to a certain level of base voter in this country. It`s about bottom feeding. One might even argue it`s about race-baiting. I`m not one to throw that R around. Because I think when you throw the R word around, the racism word too easily it can act like a boomerang, come back to bite you in the derriere.
BEHAR: Do you think it`s better if white people say it?
SMILEY: I don`t think it`s better or worse. I think that you have to be accurate when you say it and you`ve got to be careful and judicious about when you use that word, but there are some things that are hard to explain in any other terminology. When you have this kind of conversation, I was watching another network today and I saw they had up on the big screen a copy of the president`s birth certificate and they`re literally walking through this thing, analyzing and circling this and circling that, I have never in my life.
BEHAR: No.
SMILEY: Ever thought about, much less imagined it possible that we would be deconstructing on national television the certified birth certificate of any U.S. president, but why this one? Why this one?
BEHAR: I know.
SMILEY: It`s hard to explain it any other way. Whenever you say that, you get accused, me in this case, you get accused of race-baiting. But give me any other rationale ...
BEHAR: No.
SMILEY: ... for why this president is subjected to this kind of nonsense.
BEHAR: There is -- It`s true -- I agree with you. I mean we never asked to see George Bush`s diploma, for example, which I had questions on that.
SMILEY: Yes.
BEHAR: OK. But -- were you surprised that he did that today, though, that he released it?
SMILEY: I was -- I was a bit surprised and disappointed. I understand strategically, or since you mentioned President Bush, as President Bush might say, I understand the strategery (ph) behind the Obama administration releasing it. You want to stop the nonsense. This -- enough already. I get that. What I really hate, though, is that he was forced to do that because he was pushed by a guy named Donald Trump. Donald Trump is pimping the media. He is laughing all the way to the bank.
BEHAR: Still?
SMILEY: Still.
BEHAR: Don`t you think he jumped the shark now? Everybody knows he`s been making this up, and it`s over.
SMILEY: But it`s a game for him. He`s still got his gig on NBC and people.
BEHAR: For the moment.
SMILEY: For the moment. But for him it`s always about notoriety. It`s always about exposure. It`s always about media attention. And he feeds off of that like oxygen.
BEHAR: But it`s at somebody else`s expense.
SMILEY: Yeah, but since when has he cared about that? It`s like oxygen for him ...
BEHAR: Yes.
SMILEY: It`s like water for him, it`s like blood in his veins. And I`m not trying to demonize him, I`m just trying to say that there has got to be a certain level of civility in our discourse. And if this is what we get from a guy who`s not even declared as a candidate yet ...
BEHAR: Yes.
SMILEY: This is just -- this is -- this is the preliminary.
BEHAR: Yes.
SMILEY: If he were to get in the race, how much uglier, how much nastier, how much more divisive, how much more expensive, how much more racist is the attack going to be if you actually get in the race. He`s just playing around the edges right now.
BEHAR: Yeah, that`s right. What do you think of this theory that the Democrats and President Obama did not release this paper sooner because they wanted to demonize the right a little bit and show how stupid they were?
SMILEY: I think sometimes in Washington, it might sound oxymoronic, we can overthink issues. I`m not sure how much thought the White House gave to that. I just think it`s difficult when you are, as American as anybody else ...
BEHAR: Yes.
SMILEY: ... and you get backed into a corner to prove your Americanness when nobody else has to do that? I`d push back on that as well for as long as I could, because it`s insulting, it`s demeaning. And it`s - - it`s ...
BEHAR: But the discourse is ...
SMILEY: It`s anti-American.
BEHAR: You know, it`s funny you should say that because a guy stopped me on the street before I came into the building, some right winger, an old white guy, and he`s attacking me because, I`m hard on Republicans and why do you hate America, he said to me. I mean, who needs this? I`m just walking down the street, I love America as much as anybody else ...
SMILEY: True.
BEHAR: It`s been very good to me and my family. To have this jerk come up to me, don`t think I didn`t turn on him plenty?
SMILEY: I`m sure you did. But that speaks to the low level of our discourse.
BEHAR: Really?
SMILEY: Whenever you raise questions about our democracy ...
BEHAR: Yeah.
SMILEY: You get accused of being anti-American.
BEHAR: That`s a trick.
SMILEY: But a true patriot does not excuse or forgive the sins of its own country. If you want your country to be a great democracy you have to call it on the carpet from time to time.
BEHAR: That`s right.
SMILEY: And when President Obama, I think most of your listeners or viewers probably know this, that I`ve had my issues with him. And it`s well documented back to the campaign. But I believe according to my dear friend Dr. Cornel West, my radio partner, that we have to respect him, we have to protect him, and at times we have to correct him. But that can all be done civilly and in a way that`s above board.
BEHAR: I like that. That was good. What else fabulous ...
SMILEY: Respect, protect and correct. He`s the man.
BEHAR: Let`s (inaudible) your book for a second.
SMILEY: Sure.
BEHAR: You reveal a lot of failures in your book. Why did you do that?
SMILEY: Yeah. Because it`s my 20th anniversary in the broadcast business and I started reflecting on what this 20-year journey has been and for me it`s really been about failing my way up. No one in this country who is successful if they`re being honest, Joy, and I`m sure, you agree on this, if you`re successful, you have to admit you`ve learned much more from your failures than you ever learned from your successes. There is no success without failure, but in this environment, in this country right now, we`re being frozen by fear. And everybody`s afraid of failing. There`s a poll not long ago that most Americans think our best days as a country are behind us. So fear that I feel in this country as I move around is palpable, about failure. Personally and professionally. So this story -- this book is about 20 of the worst mistakes I`ve ever made.
BEHAR: Give me your best one.
SMILEY: Oh, the best one. There is so many. It took me 16 years to get my college degree because I cussed out a professor in class one day. And I learnt that even when you`re justified you have to be dignified. I went to jail when I was much younger for writing bad checks, so many kids in college get credit cards and checking accounts thrown at them, I didn`t know how to manage it. I found myself in jail.
BEHAR: Wow.
SMILEY: Too embarrassed to tell my parents about this. The bottom line is this, and Samuel Beckett, a great Nobel Laureate, put it this way, "Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better." I love that. "Try again. Fail again. Fail better." All of us have the capacity in our lives to fail our way up if we learn the lessons. Failure need not be final, it need not be fatal. You can indeed fail your way up to the top.
BEHAR: I can`t believe it took you 16 years to graduate. You`re so smart.
SMILEY: Oh well. That`s what happens when you are arrogant and you have too much hubris in you. And you don`t revel in the humanity of others, when you are not humble enough, all lessons I`ve learned along the way and I`m still learning every day.
BEHAR: You write about also some kind of personal indiscretion that you had. What was that?
SMILEY: I had a girlfriend at one point and she and I were let`s just say in the after glow of a more talking about our past.
BEHAR: When the moon hits your eyes ...
SMILEY: ... like a big pizza pie that`s amore.
BEHAR: OK.
SMILEY: So she now -- we`re laying in bed -- we`re laying in bed one night and talking about past love lives and long story short, she told me something that she shouldn`t have told me and in an unwise moment with my boys, my partners on the basketball court or after a game I was gossiping and women aren`t the only ones who gossip, men do too.
BEHAR: Aha.
SMILEY: This is long before I was ever in the TV business, there is a major, major Hollywood star who to this day I`ve always wanted to talk to on my show on PBS. He would not come on.
BEHAR: She told you stuff that he did in bed?
SMILEY: Something like that.
BEHAR: Oh.
SMILEY: And I shouldn`t have repeated that.
BEHAR: No, but who could resist it? That`s a big major Hollywood star.
SMILEY: But ...
BEHAR: You`re too rough on yourself, Tavis.
SMILEY: No, the bottom line is that loose lips do sink ships.
BEHAR: They do, they do.
SMILEY: And you`ve got to learn all these lessons and fail up.
BEHAR: But you can fail up.
SMILEY: That`s right.
BEHAR: OK. His new book is "Fail Up." Thank you, Tavis.
SMILEY: Thank you, Joy.
BEHAR: We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Our long national nightmare is over. After firing comedian Gilbert Gottfried in March for making jokes about the tsunami, Aflac Insurance has replaced him as the Aflac spokesman duck. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we hear you one more time, we`ve heard it on video but we want to hear it in person.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Aflac! Aflac!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DAN MCKEAGUE: That`s the new voice of Aflac sales manager Dan McKeague, the Aflac people must be praying he doesn`t do "20 Minutes on Chernobyl." Hello. Gilbert Gottfried is with me now, his new book is "Rubber Balls and Liquor." I think you stole that from Maya Angelou. Is that true?
GILBERT GOTTFRIED, AUTHOR "RUBBER BALLS AND LIQUOR: Oh, yes, yes.
BEHAR: That title?
GOTTFRIED: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. It had to do with the black experience. "Rubber Balls and Liquor."
BEHAR: Were you -- tell me something.
GOTTFRIED: Yes.
BEHAR: Were you surprised at this backlash? I mean really, it was a bit much.
GOTTFRIED: Wait, there was a backlash?
BEHAR: Now, you forgot.
GOTTFRIED: I didn`t know. I had no idea.
BEHAR: There was.
GOTTFRIED: There was a controversy.
BEHAR: Yes. They were turning on you like crazy.
GOTTFRIED: Oh, yes. It was -- to me, it was like, well, first of all, the media was -- well, the first people who blew it out of control was TMZ and Perez Hilton and they were both shocked and offended.
BEHAR: Really?
GOTTFRIED: Because they`re the arbiters of good taste.
BEHAR: Really?
GOTTFRIED: And then "Showbiz Tonight" brought out, this is true, they brought out Camille Grammer, Kelsey`s ex-wife to say how shocked and offended she was.
BEHAR: Oh, is that true?
GOTTFRIED: Yes, this is absolutely true. And the media keeps saying, and these insensitive comments and remarks. You know, they wouldn`t call them jokes, because if you say jokes people go, yes, jokes? And then they go, well, they were jokes. A comedian said that. Well, that`s what comedians do. But they were -- they were kind of on the tasteless side. And -- but this was Gilbert Gottfried, right? Has he ever said something tasteful?
BEHAR: No.
GOTTFRIED: No. And so, what -- what is the actual news item here? Yes, so ...
BEHAR: So in your mind, Gilly, is there anything off limits in comedy?
GOTTFRIED: No.
BEHAR: No?
GOTTFRIED: No.
BEHAR: There is nothing.
GOTTFRIED: No. No. No. If you were to drop dead right now?
BEHAR: You`d make a joke.
GOTTFRIED: I`d turn to the camera, I`d have an hour on it.
BEHAR: I understand. I understand. I`m a comic. I get it.
GOTTFRIED: In fact, I`m looking at you wondering if I should whack you over the head with a chair just so I can have some jokes to tell.
BEHAR: All right. What about like the Holocaust? How about that?
GOTTFRIED: Oh, yes.
BEHAR: ... missing children?
GOTTFRIED: Oh, funny, funny.
BEHAR: Hilarious.
GOTTFRIED: Yeah, I`ve sent out an actual -- I sent out a twitter on Hitler`s birthday. This was because it was a couple of days ago.
BEHAR: Aha. Gee, I forgot to send a card.
GOTTFRIED: Yeah.
BEHAR: Go ahead.
GOTTFRIED: And I`ve said, birthday message to Hitler, you`re dead, and the Jews run the world, ha-ha.
BEHAR: That`s a good one. Now tell me about when you ran afoul of Marlon Brando. How -- what`s that story?
GOTTFRIED: Yeah, OK. This was, I was on Hollywood Squares. And I`m -- I really was. I`m not saying that just to brag. I`m not saying I was on Hollywood Squares just to try and get laid. I was actually on Hollywood Squares. Yes. That`s right. So I demand a little respect.
BEHAR: So what happened with Marlon?
GOTTFRIED: So the question was, what mammal has the largest eyes. And I said, Marlon Brando at a buffet. And all of a sudden, you know, so they usually the best clips are -- that got the biggest laugh. Also, yes. See? I got the biggest laugh on Hollywood Squares and I did one on "Pyramid" that wasn`t bad, either. No. So I -- that got the biggest laugh, and it wasn`t in the commercial. And so it was found out that when they were editing, Whoopi Goldberg gets a call, and on the phone it was Marlon Brando.
BEHAR: Oh.
GOTTFRIED: Yes.
BEHAR: What did he say? Do it as him.
GOTTFRIED: Yes. No, I was going to do it as Peter O`Toole. And -- but if you want me to do it ..
BEHAR: OK. Do it as Peter O`Toole. That`s even funnier. Go ahead.
GOTTFRIED: No, so Marlon Brando calls up Whoopi Goldberg and he goes, um, am I going to be, um, the running joke on -- on your show? And it`s like I thought at that point the perfect answer would have been, well, the words Marlon Brando and running don`t quite go together. You know, maybe you`ll be the lumbering joke on the show. The barely getting out of bed joke on the show, the eating piece of cheesecake while trying to stand up part of the show, but running is not really a number one on that list. So, yes, so Marlon Brando kept me from getting in the commercial.
BEHAR: And how do you do -- somebody said that you do Marlon Brando as Howie Mandel. Is that true?
GOTTFRIED: I don`t think I`ve ever done it. I could try it, now. But, see, no one really knows Howie -- I -- I think now I`m going to blow up a rubber glove on my head. Yes. So that would be Brando as Howie ...
BEHAR: OK. OK. Now -- now ...
GOTTFRIED: That was the first time I ever did that. So, all right, if it wasn`t funny, but at least I -- and you know, tomorrow I`ll be coming on TV to a apologize about that joke. I apologize to anyone I offended by my Marlon Brando as Howie Mandel joke.
BEHAR: Now, tell me something. You do -- you did "The Aristocrats "...
GOTTFRIED: Yes.
BEHAR: OK. And they were -- the jokes were vile and filthy. Everybody knows that you do great jokes. Do you have a joke that you can do on this show that`s not vile before we go out to commercial?
GOTTFRIED: Oh, OK. A man walks into his son`s room. Hey, now, father goes, hey son, if you keep masturbating, you`re going to go blind. The son goes, I`m over here, dad.
BEHAR: That`s a good joke. You got another one?
GOTTFRIED: No, I can do my Marlon Brando as Howie Mandel again. I have another one that`s fun but it`s longer.
BEHAR: Longer joke?
GOTTFRIED: Yes. It`s -- yeah?
BEHAR: How much time do I have? I`ve got to wrap. When we come back, we`ll have more with Gilbert Gottfried.
GOTTFRIED: But it was such a good one. .
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOTTFRIED: Jerry Seinfeld as Hamlet. To be or not to be. I don`t know whether I should be or not. Shall be will be. Who are these people that be?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: We`re back with comedian Gilbert Gottfried.
GOTTFRIED: And I`d like to put out a formal apology for anything I said in the first section of this show and anyone who was hurt by it.
BEHAR: OK.
GOTTFRIED: Yes. You need to do a bit back at the catch day, "Catch a Rising Star" days.
BEHAR: You know, when we were going over this in the commercial breaks, what voices I could do that people would actually know. And, you know, it`s like most of the voices I do, you`d have to go to an old kinescope to find.
GOTTFRIED: But this one was Jerry Lewis does the Who?
BEHAR: Yes. This I haven`t done for a while, but I`ll put it with my Marlon Brando doing Howie Mandel. "See me, touch me, hurt me, see me, see me, feel and touch, touch me."
GOTTFRIED: OK. OK. I didn`t -- yeah.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: All right. That`s right. Now because of this -- because of this brilliant talent that you have for impression, you were on "Saturday Night Live" at one point.
GOTTFRIED: Yes.
BEHAR: But then they dumped you. What happened?
GOTTFRIED: Well, I think they were the first ones, and then it just became a habit with anyplace I worked for me to get dumped. They were just ahead of their time. Yes.
BEHAR: Ahead of the AFLAC.
GOTTFRIED: Yes, yes. They -- "Saturday Night Live," they had the insight to go, hey, let`s fire him before. That will be ...
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Now, was that before or after you had this near death experience?
GOTTFRIED: Oh, yes, that came after. In fact, I was fired from "Mr. Ed," the original. Thanks for the two people in the nursing home who remember that show. Yes -- yes, I had a near death experience.
BEHAR: Can you tell me in 30 seconds?
GOTTFRIED: OK. No, I`d be dead by then. In 30 seconds I can redo my Marlon Brando as Howie Mandel.
(CROSSTALK)
GOTTFRIED: My appendix exploded.
BEHAR: Exploded, yes.
GOTTFRIED: Yes. And basically, my appendix and you`re fired. And so I was in the hospital, and then that was about it. It wasn`t all that funny, really. Yes, I almost died. That was funny!
BEHAR: All right. OK. His book is called "Rubber Balls and Liquor." And it`s out now. Good night, everybody.
END
