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Death of bin Laden

Aired May 02, 2011 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW. With the earth- shattering news that Osama bin Laden is dead, Joy talks to first responders and families of 9/11 victims to find out if this gives them some closure.

Then Americans took to the streets and cheered at last night news. But are we safer now? Joy finds out how bin Laden`s death changes the war on terror.

Plus even after authorizing the strike on bin Laden, the President had time to needle Donald Trump at the White House Correspondents` Dinner. Joy has the highlights.

That and more starting right now.

JOY BEHAR, HOST: Osama bin Laden was killed in a raid by Navy Seals last night and President Obama went on the air to spread the news.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: On nights like this one we can say to those families who have lost loved ones to al Qaeda`s terror, justice has been done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: But does this event really bring vindication to 9/11 family members now that the mastermind behind the attacks is dead?

With me now to talk about that is Rocco Chierichella, a 9/11 first responder and retired firefighter; Peter Gadiel whose 23-year-old son was killed in the World Trade Center. Gadiel is also on the board of directors for of 9/11 Families for a Secure America. And Leslie Haskin, a 9/11 survivor who got out of the World Trade Center before it collapsed.

Welcome to the show.

Peter, what was your official reaction when you heard that bin Laden had been killed?

PETER GADIEL, 23-YEAR-OLD SON DIED ON 9/11: Of course I was pleased that he finally met his appropriate end. I can`t celebrate like a lot of other people because it`s not going to bring my son back --

BEHAR: Right.

GADIEL: -- but I certainly appreciate the emotion people feel about his end.

BEHAR: Rocco, what does it mean to the first responders, the 9/11 -- you heard this today. I mean everybody had a reaction.

ROCCO CHIERICHELLA, 9/11 FIRST RESPONDENT: There`s some relief in terms of this guy who was the mastermind behind it. However, we always have to be on our toes and resilient in terms of this possibly happening again and having to respond to something as tragic as that. And that`s -- that can happen.

BEHAR: We hope it will never happen again, boy. And I think people are trying to do the best they can to prevent it. We have already intercepted many attempts over the last ten years, right?

CHIERICHELLA: We have done a decent job but these individuals or groups of individuals, or countries don`t seem to get the message and they seem to hate us and our response may be to some isn`t strong enough; to others maybe it`s too strong.

BEHAR: This killing might have taken the wind out of their sails a little because he was the charismatic head of this whole thing and they got rid of him the way they got rid of Hitler and Nazism sort of took a dive also after that, you know. So maybe --

CHIERICHELLA: Well, Joy, Hitler killed himself --

BEHAR: Right.

CHIERICHELLA: -- one. And two, I don`t know if they will get the message. They don`t wear a uniform. It`s not like an army like Hitler had --

(CROSSTALK)

CHIERICHELLA: It is difficult for our leaders and our soldiers to fight this war. And that`s why it is important that we never forget what happened here on September 11th.

Some may want us to forget it, but as a united country in this endeavor we should never forget this gentleman. This woman went through traumatic experiences that are second to none. And as part of the responding team, we know what was going on inside of those buildings. And unfortunately we need to stay resolved on this issue and support our military budget-wise, the best equipment, the best intelligence that we can possibly give them.

BEHAR: It was intelligence really that caught him this time I think.

But Leslie, you dodged a bullet. How did you feel today?

LESLIE HASKIN, 9/11 SURVIVOR: I think I`m still shocked. I think I`m still stunned. I keep hearing that justice has been served, but how do we find justice in the death of one man? We have lost thousands.

BEHAR: I know.

HASKIN: Thousands that day. Thousands in pursuit of him and now I went from a high-paying career in the World Trade Center to being homeless. How do I get that back? How do we re-get our birthdays, our anniversaries, our Christmases that he`s robbed us of. The death of one man won`t do it. We need something bigger.

BEHAR: That attack metastasized to so many people. You are talking about your poor boy and other people who lost their children and mothers and fathers. It`s just -- but Peter, whom do you blame for 9/11?

GADIEL: I blame in large part the Clinton administration as well as the Bush administration. I think Bill Clinton failed to treat the first 9/11 attack as a terrorist attack, rather he treated it as a criminal matter.

(INAUDIBLE) Janet Reno, others, created that wall and made it impossible for the CIA to talk to the FBI, the FBI counterintelligence side to talk to the criminal side and that made it impossible for them to connect the infamous dots.

I think that we had laxities in policies which resulted in giving all the terrorists visas and their people in the state department who are named in the 9/11 commission report as a matter of fact who were never punished. And no one really has been called to account, neither the Bush administration or the Clinton administration for what happened.

And there was a -- I`m not a 9/11 truther by any means, not at all but the real crime of our government is the incompetence and corruption of many people in the executive branch as well as the legislative branch, particularly the state department and the administration.

BEHAR: I don`t know if all of that is true, but certainly there was lax security. I mean when we look back on it and we say the cockpit doors were open, you know. They were able to take flying lessons and just take off and never land and nobody questioned that. When you hear about that type of, you know --

GADIEL: Well, It was the Gore Commission in 1996 which investigated airport and airline security and they recommended hardening the cockpit doors but then the airline industry made contributions to the Clinton/Gore re-election campaign and all those recommendations were forgotten about. So the result we saw on 9/11 when there was no cockpit security whatsoever.

And there are so many other instances of that, border guards being pressed to admit people, questionable that they had doubts about by the Disney organization in Orlando because the Saudis spent a lot of money at Disney World. So this pressure went throughout our system.

CHIERICHELLA: We could have learned a lot, Joy, from Israel`s past experiences with dealing with terroristic problems and we didn`t. LL one of the safest airlines to fly in the world. If we had just --

BEHAR: Paid attention.

CHIERICHELLA: Mirrored what they`d done we probably wouldn`t be sitting here talking about this.

BEHAR: You want to say something Leslie?

HASKIN: We can go whose fault is it that the cockpit doors were open, or talk about what -- were open -- I can talk about what happened from the inside of the building and we can say -- point fingers and say who`s to blame. At the end of the day there was an evil man who decided with his evil comrades to murder.

BEHAR: That`s right.

HASKIN: And so, I blame bin Laden. I blame al Qaeda. I do not blame the President.

BEHAR: So do you feel like celebrating today that he`s dead?

HASKIN: No, no. I don`t. Where is that going to take me? Then what?

BEHAR: It is a moment of triumph to some extent for America --

HASKIN: For some people.

BEHAR: -- to say that we finally got this bastard, you know.

HASKIN: For some people it might bring closure but what is that? I mean what is the next thing.

BEHAR: I don`t know. I don`t believe in closure. I don`t believe -- and you can speak to that Peter. I don`t really believe in closure when you lose a loved one.

CHIERICHELLA: I happen to have -- Joy, I happen to have a daughter and son-in-law that are officers in the military, served. And for one thing, some celebration to lift their spirits at a time like this is very helpful from what I understand. The Military is out there. People have forgotten --

BEHAR: Good for them.

CHIERICHELLA: People have forgotten that we have these kids that are over there fighting the fight for this country and we seem to have kind of faded away from knowing that.

BEHAR: 67 percent of Americans polled did not believe we would ever catch him. So, it`s triumphant in that sense.

HASKIN: I think in that sense it is. And for the service, for the servers, the guys who went and fought, they need this. They need this celebration. For a lot of the families, they need it.

But for those of us who are still surviving ten years later, still trying to get the wind back in our sails, what am I going to be celebrating? What will I celebrate?

BEHAR: President Obama spoke about the unity that prevailed on 9/11 and Rocco, you were in the crowd that day when President Bush was at Ground Zero. Let`s take just a quick look at what Bush said that day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I can hear you. The rest of the world hears you and the people -- and the people, who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: I mean there is a certain triumphant feeling today.

CHIERICHELLA: Absolutely.

BEHAR: From that day to this.

CHIERICHELLA: You have to admit that the last time you heard any kind of unified chant down in that area that solemn place is when President Bush came. You have to remember -- put yourself back in that time -- the country was on its knees. They were looking at each other dizzy and the President lifted the workers, lifted the nation.

BEHAR: He did. He did

CHIERICHELLA: He probably -- that speech galvanized the response to terrorism for his presidency, whether you agree with him or not, that`s what it did at that time.

BEHAR: And there`s plenty of blame to go around politically as Peter points out. But today at least let us just take a break and be happy that it happened the way it did.

And thanks, guys for being here.

We`ll be right back with an inside look at the raid that led to bin Laden`s death. Very interesting stuff what happened there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And we`re reminded that we, of course, need to have Americans who dedicate their lives to the (INAUDIBLE) cause. They volunteered. They trained and they endured separation from their families. They take extraordinary risks so that we can be safe. They get the job done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: As more facts about the death of terrorist Osama bin Laden come in, more interesting details surface. Joining me is someone who knows everything, CNN Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr.

Hey Barbara, so good to see you here on this show.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Oh, thank you for having me, Joy.

BEHAR: Now I understand this guy, bin Laden himself may have used one of his wives as a human shield. Do you know anything about that?

STARR: Yes. Absolutely. Unbelievable, isn`t it? This is the man advertised as the world`s greatest terrorist leader and he was basically hiding behind a woman. The -- the military, the U.S. intelligence community saying as this all went down and they got to this final stage right to bin Laden that there was a woman here. She was killed -- said to be his wife that basically against her will was pulled in front of bin Laden and used as a human shield by him.

You know, just one of the many acts that are so despicable; bin Laden of course caught living in this million-dollar mansion.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: I know.

STARR: -- in Pakistan. You know while his -- his lieutenants and the sub-lieutenants and couriers you know out in the field. They`re living in really dreadful conditions while he is encouraging them to engage in attacks. He`s -- he used to living pretty good.

BEHAR: Well, that kind of information should go out to everybody in all these -- the Muslim countries. That he`s basically a wuss, putting his wife in front of him like that and living high on the hog in a $1 million house. By the way that would go for $3 million in the Hamptons. I`m just saying. It would.

STARR: Well, you know, I`ve got to -- you know, I`ve got to tell you there are an awful a lot of people out there for the last couple of years who kept saying very quietly, you know, stop with the Osama bin Laden`s living in a cave. He`s not living in a cave. He`s a rich Saudi, he`s living somewhere very comfortably.

Now, by all indications he was running short of money. They did a lot of improvements to this place, spent a lot of money. It became very visible and that was one of the clues that led the CIA and the Obama administration to say what`s going on here? Why is there this compound that`s got all of this improvement and renovation going on? Who`s living there? And that`s one of the things that made them really hone in on maybe it was bin Laden.

BEHAR: Well, all criminals have a slip-up sooner or later don`t they, and this was his. And it`s interesting there was a computer in the house but no Wi-Fi. What -- what did they find? Do you know what they found on the computer? They might be a lot of data and a lot of information.

(CROSSTALK)

STARR: Well, yes, you know exactly. In the 40 minutes that the U.S. Navy Seals were on the ground, doing the operation, trying to get in and out as fast as possible, on the way out they grabbed as much as they could. Some computer drives, some data, some documents; really an intelligence treasure trove. And now the U.S. is analyzing all of that, see what bin Laden had there. Seeing if they can get any more clues about whether they can locate any other al Qaeda leaders or any other terrorist plots.

BEHAR: It`s just great.

Now, tell me what you know about them burying him at sea. I know that it`s a -- it`s a Muslim tradition to bury -- you can`t -- what`s the -- what`s the story? Tell it to me. I want you --

(CROSSTALK)

STARR: Well, here`s -- you know, here`s the deal.

BEHAR: Yes. Yes.

STARR: You know, in the Muslim tradition like other religions, burial is supposed to take place as quickly as possible but they didn`t want to bury him anywhere on land. They didn`t want to create a shrine, a place where militants could gather and pay homage to him and engage in even more recruiting. They didn`t want to create yet another area of paying homage to him.

So basically the U.S. military flew the body on the deck of the aircraft carrier "Karl Vincent" in the north Arabian Sea. They put him in a weighted bag, they did say some Islamic prayers we are told. And basically they tipped him over the edge and buried him at sea.

BEHAR: Well, so how did they prove that it was bin Laden -- how will they prove to Donald Trump for -- for (INAUDIBLE) to see his birth certificate? How -- how are they going to prove to people like Donald Trump --

(CROSSTALK)

STARR: Ok.

BEHAR: -- that it`s bin Laden.

STARR: Ok, I know the answer to this question.

BEHAR: Go ahead.

STARR: There are -- there -- there is -- we are told, two things that he was recognizable. This is a man whose features are known to the world, that the troops on the ground did facial recognition. They knew it was him but also photos were taken. That helped to match you know --

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: That`s it.

STARR: -- the kind of biometrics, the -- the nose, the ears, the eyes, all of that. And they also engaged in very quick DNA analysis. All of that, they say, leaves no doubt but what we are waiting for, Joy, is to see if the White House goes ahead and decides to release the photos of bin Laden. I have talked to two guys who have seen him and they said you will recognize his face if you see those photos.

BEHAR: And -- and he definitely looks dead in the pictures, that`s what we want to know.

STARR: Yes there --

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: And they matched the DNA, they matched the DNA to his sister. So that`s definitely proof I mean, because I worry about all of these -- you know, these conspiracy theorists out there who are going to come back with more baloney after this is all over.

So one more question about how they captured him. Did they go through a courier in Guantanamo to get information about where he was? Is that a fact?

STARR: Well, yes, you know, this is coming out in drips and drabs but what administration officials are saying is they got some details from detainees at Guantanamo Bay. This leads them to a courier in Pakistan. They start tracking the courier -- all of this really starting late last year.

And then what`s this courier doing living in this million-dollar compound in Pakistan? This is when they start to put the pieces together. They didn`t really have the definitive information when they went in but it was close enough for President Obama and he said "go ahead" on Friday. He signed the order to execute the mission.

And Joy, if I could just say one last thing. Here at the Pentagon today, like in Lower Manhattan, like in Shanksville for the families who had their relatives lost on that day it is so important. It is so sobering. 184 souls lost here at the Pentagon that day and they are well- remembered by the military and the people who work here inside the Pentagon, including the news media.

BEHAR: Well, it`s a great day for America in so many different ways. Thanks, Barbara, very much for your report and just being here with me. I enjoyed it very much. We`ll be back in a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: The news that the United States government finally tracked down and killed the world`s most-wanted terrorist is bound to have political implications. So here now to discuss that part of the story is Candy Crowley, CNN senior political correspondent and host of the "STATE OF THE UNION". Candy, I have to tell you I love your show so much on Sundays. I watch you every week.

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Oh, thank you. That makes me feel good.

BEHAR: It is really good and I love to read Zakaria`s show, too. It is a terrific block. Were you surprised that so many Republicans have been coming forward to congratulate the President? I mean it is a bipartisan day. Peter King, Tim Pawlenty, Cheney and Bush even.

CROWLEY: Right, right. No, I`m not surprised because what`s the alternative here? I mean even if you want to say, boy, this was sheer luck or whatever, it is a huge day and it`s a huge day for the Navy Seals and the CIA. And yes, I think the President said it right. It`s a good day for America.

And presidencies are defined by moments. It`s kind of like life. It is not, you know, day after day. It is moment after moment. And this is clearly the biggest moment of the President`s presidency so far, I think.

I think he gets a lot of -- a lot of kudos for this, not just that we got Osama bin Laden but how we got him. I was talking to a source today and he said, "You know what I love about this whole thing?" And I said "What?" And he said, "The last face that Osama bin Laden saw was the face of a U.S. soldier."

BEHAR: I love that, too.

CROWLEY: And so there`s -- yes, yes. There`s a lot of --

BEHAR: And what about the poll numbers? When are we going to find out that this has given President Obama a boost in the polls?

CROWLEY: It surely will. I think we will do a three-day -- usually there are three days worth of polls so they`ll probably be out in the field. They`re just starting last night or today when people first started hearing about it. So I would say sometime toward the end of the week.

Surely the President will get a bounce out of this because when the country has a moment, it means the President has a moment. And even if you want to give the Navy Seals all the credit in the world and you don`t think the President had a thing to do with it, presidents can claim moments. And they have to claim moments good or bad that occur during their time on the watch. And this is his time on the watch and he gets credit for it.

BEHAR: Ok. What about the 2012 election? How does this impact that? I mean the Republicans don`t really have a front runner yet.

CROWLEY: They don`t and really that is a much larger problem that predates capturing Osama bin Laden. Listen, I wish I could tell you what it means. I think the problem is there will probably be other moments between now and then.

This will be good. This gives the President much firmer footing going in to the presidential election cycle. I`m certain that will happen.

But the question is if we get up to this time next year and unemployment is still high, hovering in the high 8 percentile, if people still feel that their home value is in the basement and if they still don`t think the economy is strong enough, I think that overcomes the moment, that the totality of people`s lives then overcomes this moment. But it certainly helps in the short term and in the short term it gives him some terra firma in the poll numbers.

BEHAR: The interesting thing negatively really is that the stock market didn`t really go up today. Shouldn`t that have happened? Whenever there is good news like this it jumps.

(CROSSTALK)

CROWLEY: You`d think so but, you know, well, sort of. Except sometimes there is bad news and it jumps. I`d love to be able to figure out the stock market because I`d retire, but I don`t get the stock market. And -- but I just don`t think that you can -- I think it may be based on the fear of what might come in terms of retaliation. That would be my best bet?

BEHAR: Yes. Well, we`ll be talking about that part of the situation later in the show. Thanks very much for giving us an update, Candy.

CROWLEY: Thanks Joy.

BEHAR: Ok. We`ll be right back. .

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: I think we can all agree this is a good day for America. Our country has kept its commitment to see that justice is done. The world is safer. It is a better place because of the death of Osama bin Laden.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: That was President Obama speaking earlier today for the second time since the death of Osama bin Laden.

Joining me on the phone with her response to the news is New York Senator Kristin (sic) Gillibrand. I`m saying Kirsten all the time. Hello. How are you, Senator Gillibrand?

SEN. KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND, D-N.Y.: Hi, Joy. It`s Kirsten, how are you?

BEHAR: It`s Kirsten, right, OK. I always get those two names mixed up.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: Now, the whole country is celebrating today, but is there a special feeling today for New Yorkers, do you think?

GILLIBRAND: Well, you know, it is a day of celebration, because for so many people it`s been ten years, and this is a real measure of justice for them and their families and for all of those who were lost on 9/11.

But it`s also a stark reminder that New Yorkers must be vigilant, because there are still risks. The good news is, Joy, is this was a message across the bow for all terrorists, that New York never gives up, never gives in, and that we will hold terrorists accountable no matter when we find you. And that really I think is a message that will keep America safer.

BEHAR: I hope so. You have been a major supporter of the 9/11 first responders. Have you talked to them and what are they saying to you?

GILLIBRAND: I did. I talked to John Field (ph) this morning, who is one of the best advocates, who literally came to Washington week after week, month after month to work with legislators to assure that our first responders got the health care they deserved. And he was terrific. He just said, Kirsten, I`ve been up all night. He said I can`t believe this moment has finally come. It`s taken a long time, but many people feel great joy and great relief that the perpetrator of these horrific attacks was finally brought to justice.

BEHAR: And I think we see his true colors from some of the reportage, that he put his wife in front of him to use as a human shield. So we see that, you know, the mighty have fallen in different ways. And you know, you serve on the committee on the armed forces, so do you worry that our military could be in danger of retaliatory attacks at all? Do you think about that?

GILLIBRAND: Look, we have the strongest and bravest military members in the world. And they are prepared for anything. But we will be prepared for any retaliatory efforts. Right now, I spoke to Commissioner Kelly this morning from New York City, and he`s put all of the NYPD on high alert to make sure that we are ready for anything, anything that could happen. So he increased the number of police on the subways and other places that he thought were important.

But the reality is, Joy, we have been attacked 12 times since 9/11 in New York City, but our NYPD and our FBI subverted all of those attacks. The last one was about a year ago when the bomber attempted to put a bomb in Times Square. But it was a regular New Yorker, a vendor, who just saw something, reported it, and that gave the NYPD the tools they needed to subvert that attack.

So we as New Yorkers and as all Americans need to be, is we have to remain vigilant, because there is terrorism worldwide, and al Qaeda has metastasized in the last ten years. And now it is an international organization that can launch remote operations from all over the world.

So our enemies have not been depleted, but to take out this one, this one enemy No. 1 I think is one for the good guys.

BEHAR: That`s right.

GILLIBRAND: So I think we can feel really good about the work that President Obama did. He never gave up on this. He kept his resolve. And I think that makes a huge difference in us finally taking him down.

BEHAR: OK. Thanks very much for joining me tonight, Senator.

GILLIBRAND: Thanks, Joy. Be well.

BEHAR: Thank you.

The death of bin Laden is a definite victory for the United States, but does it actually make us safer? Let`s talk to Frances Townsend, who is the former Bush homeland security adviser. Hey, Frances.

You know, the president said the world is a safer place now that bin Laden is dead, do you think that is true?

FRANCES FRAGOS TOWNSEND, FORMER HOMELAND SECURITY ADVISER TO PRESIDENT BUSH: I think it is true to the extent, Joy, that, look, bin Laden was an inspiration. And so he was good for recruitment, he was good for raising money, which you need if you are going to launch attacks. And as far as all of that is concerned, you take that away from them and you do really cripple them. And so that`s a good thing.

Right now in the near term, however, in the chaos, we will take advantage of that, but you worry that the one-off, that Nadal Hasan, like the Ft. Hood shooter, somebody may take measures in their own hands and try and retaliate.

But I think what you are seeing, Senator Gillibrand says New York is prepared. You see local communities and police departments across the country as well as the FBI and Homeland Security are prepared to try and prevent something like that.

BEHAR: Do you think that someone`s going to take bin Laden`s spot? I mean, there is this guy, Al-Zawahiri, his second in command. I mean, we might have gotten the big guy, but he just had these people backing him up all of these years. What about him?

TOWNSEND: That`s right. That`s right, Joy. Zawahiri is nowhere near as charismatic. He does not have the following that bin Laden had. He may move up. There may be a power struggle. But that`s good, the power struggle. Let them fight with each other and spend less time planning attacks against us.

So yes, somebody will try to move up, but the friction inside the organization is the thing that we can take advantage of.

BEHAR: OK, now, CIA Director Leon Panetta said this in his statements. He said, "The terrorists almost certainly will attempt to avenge him, and we must and will remain vigilant and resolute." Now, won`t there be retaliation for this? I mean, how much danger are we actually going to be in now? You say that, you know, there`s the subway systems, I think Kirsten was saying that.

You know, we`re in New York. We`re always a little bit nervous here, that something could happen.

TOWNSEND: It could, Joy. But I think it`s more likely -- what you look at first and foremost are Americans and American interest overseas, and that`s why we saw Secretary Clinton issue the warning to Americans around the world. Because they are more vulnerable because they are not inside the United States. Doesn`t mean there is not a threat here, but you do see things, as I mentioned, the Department of Homeland Security and FBI working with local officials to try and stop something.

You can`t stop all of it. And so I think you have got to be prepared. You have got to recognize there may be retaliation. But on the whole, I think over time, we are safer.

BEHAR: Well, you know, this is interesting. The United States hasn`t shown any proof of Osama`s death. Why not? Is that some kind of security precaution? Tell me about that.

TOWNSEND: You know, it`s interesting. We saw -- Americans saw the pictures when Saddam Hussein`s sons were killed, when Zarqawi in Iraq was killed, and the administration will have to make a decision about releasing the photos of bin Laden dead. And -- but they haven`t done that yet. I mean, I think they are concerned that that will inflame Muslims around the world.

But, look, the people who don`t believe this may be persuaded by pictures. Some will never believe it, but frankly, I think in the long run, they are going to have to release the pictures, but they are going to want to do it in a way that has the least blowback, if you will, on America and Americans.

BEHAR: Now, a lot of officials have said that they would have captured bin Laden alive if they could have. I`m a little suspicious of that statement, because I think that the chaos that would have ensued if we had him alive in New York City, for example. I don`t think that that was a good idea. What`s your response to that?

TOWNSEND: I don`t think anybody -- Joy, you are absolutely right, I don`t think anybody thought that would have been a good idea. They were relying on the fact that he would fight, and if he fought, they were going to kill him. That`s what happened. But I don`t think anybody, from the operators on the ground to the president of the United States, wanted to have to deal with Osama bin Laden in captivity, in the United States, under trial.

BEHAR: OK. All right. Thanks, Frances, very much for the update. We`ll be back in a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: Donald Trump had a rough weekend. Both comedian Seth Meyers and President Obama himself mocked him at the White House correspondents dinner. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: No one is prouder to put this birth certificate matter to rest than the Donald. And that`s because he can finally get back to focusing on the issues that matter, like did we fake the moon landing? What really happened in Roswell? And where are Biggie and Tupac?

(LAUGHTER)

SETH MEYERS, COMEDIAN: Donald Trump has been saying that he will run for president as Republican, which is surprising since I just assumed he was running as a joke.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: Now, why would they call his candidacy a joke? What part of Vice President Meatloaf doesn`t sound serious?

With me now to discuss the Donald and other stories in the news are Nikki Sixx, whose new album "This Is Going to Hurt," is in stores tomorrow. Rebecca Dana, senior correspondent for Newsweek and the Daily Beast. And Dean Obeidallah, comedian and star of the off-Broadway show "This Ain`t No Tea Party."

Welcome, you guys. Do you think that Seth should have gone after Trump? I mean Obama really took him to the cremation. He killed him already, so was it a pile-on at that point?

DEAN OBEIDALLAH, COMEDIAN: It was great. Seth was great. He killed, he did kill him. I don`t understand, Trump`s got such thin skin, but his face looked like leather. You think he`d much tougher about things.

BEHAR: I know, it`s true.

OBEIDALLAH: He should have taken the high road and laughed. He didn`t laugh at all. He should have laughed, he should have tipped his hair to him.

(CROSSTALK)

OBEIDALLAH: And enjoyed the moment of just having a good time.

REBECCA DANA, NEWSWEEK: I just love that Barack Obama knew this Osama bin Laden thing was coming, and he got up there and he gave that speech. First of all, he released the birth certificate, and then he sort of like humored this whole ridiculous spectacle with Donald Trump. And then like boom, Sunday, killed Osama bin Laden.

BEHAR: It was like the cat that ate the canary.

DANA: It was amazing.

BEHAR: He knew the whole -- he knew everything when he went out there and he is the coolest cat, Obama, isn`t he?

NIKKI SIXX, MUSICIAN: Yeah, oh, I love him.

BEHAR: I mean, from the Motley Crue, isn`t it the coolest thing you`ve ever seen?

SIXX: This is the coolest guy ever.

BEHAR: Yeah.

DANA: He`s like a rock star. Kind of like a rock star this weekend.

SIXX: He is a rock star. Yes, absolutely. This has been a great, great week.

BEHAR: It`s been a great week.

(CROSSTALK)

SIXX: I can`t really make fun of Donald`s hair because of mine. So--

OBEIDALLAH: It looks good.

SIXX: Mine is real.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: I think the Donald`s hair is not the joke anymore. He himself seems to be.

SIXX: That`s what`s happening, yes.

(CROSSTALK)

DANA: And the (inaudible) of makeup is kind of a joke.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: What is funny about Trump, you say he is thin-skinned. I mean, he told Fox News that he went after Seth Meyers and he said that he has no talent. He said that about me one time when I made a hair joke also. He wrote in his book that I had no talent.

SIXX: Is that his go-to?

BEHAR: Yeah, that`s his go-to, if you`re a comedian, you don`t have any talent.

The other thing he said was that Seth is a stutterer. I mean, what does that -- first of all, I don`t think Seth is a stutterer, but besides that, what is the point of that?

DANA: Hasn`t he seen the "King`s Speech?" Stutterers are cool.

BEHAR: Stutterers are in.

(LAUGHTER)

OBEIDALLAH: And mix things up over and over. I mean, I have never been lied to so much by someone I wasn`t dating. I mean, this is incredible with Donald Trump. It`s one lie after another. He doesn`t stop. There is no ending.

BEHAR: How much do you love, Rebecca, that Obama pre-empted "Celerity Apprentice?"

DANA: So much!

(CROSSTALK)

DANA: He didn`t just preempt it. But he waited an hour. He said it`s going to be 10:30 and it wasn`t until easily after 11:00, his press conference. So it`s not like he got in and out in 15 minutes. He killed the entire show. It was amazing.

OBEIDALLAH: What a weekend for Obama. First Saturday he kills Trump Saturday. Sunday he kills bin Laden. This is the best weekend ever for Obama.

BEHAR: Do you think that hurt Donald`s feelings even more than the jokes, that he went into "Celebrity Apprentice" like that?

SIXX: You think he`s sad right now?

BEHAR: Who, Donald?

SIXX: Yeah.

BEHAR: You think so?

SIXX: He is like sulking somewhere.

BEHAR: Well, sulking, yes. I don`t know if he is capable of being sad.

DANA: I don`t think that Donald Trump has any inner life at all. I think he like actually is just the makeup and the hair. So I don`t know that he`s capable of sadness.

BEHAR: Let me ask you something, Dean, as a Muslim yourself, right?

OBEIDALLAH: My family is. And I`m somewhat.

BEHAR: Are you a lapsed Muslim?

OBEIDALLAH: I`m not -- you know, I`m secular. I mean, my mom is Christian, my father is Muslim. I was raised with both religions, so I feel a connection to both, frankly, so I do identify as a Muslim but I identify at the same time as a Christian.

BEHAR: So your father is Muslim, you say?

OBEIDALLAH: Yes.

BEHAR: So how did that go down that we captured bin Laden?

OBEIDALLAH: Well, we killed bin Laden.

BEHAR: I mean, we killed him, right.

OBEIDALLAH: Every Muslim I know honestly in America is ecstatic. This is a great day, frankly. I mean, this is a man -- he`s the father of Islamophobia. He is the one that`s caused the backlash that we suffered. Innocent people across America suffered. So he`s the one I blame for Islamophobia building and building and building. If it wasn`t for 9/11, we wouldn`t live in this world where people would say these horrible things about Muslims. Presidential candidates can say horrible things, and there is no backlash anymore. You know, it sells more books and gets more ratings. That`s the sad reality.

DANA: And also to Obama`s point last night, you know, who`s killed more Muslims in the modern era than Osama bin Laden?

BEHAR: That`s true. That`s the point. Very good.

Should we talk some more about Trump? There is one more point about him, because he is racking up all of these public feuds. He has got a feud with Bill Cosby, Jerry Seinfeld, Robert De Niro. The guy has got a longer enemies list now than Nixon did. And now Letterman, who -- the president - - Donald Trump is now saying he`s not going to go on Letterman`s show because some of Letterman`s comments were racist. Watch it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID LETTERMAN, TALK SHOW HOST: But then this nonsense about, oh, how did he get into Harvard? How did he get into Columbia? I`d like to see his grades from Occidental. How was he able to write such a memoir? Well, that is taking on a whole different point of view, as far as I`m concerned.

My point is, it`s all fun, it`s all a circus, it`s all a rodeo, until it starts to smack of racism, and then it is no longer fun.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: I think he has a point, David. It became less fun when he started talking about his grades and getting into Harvard. Then it started to sound like he only got in because he was black. That`s what it sounded like.

OBEIDALLAH: It looked like a therapy session they had with David Letterman talking to Dr. Phil. Like, this is my problem.

You know, I graduated from law school. I can tell you this, you cannot graduate with honors and be editor in chief of your law review at Harvard Law School if you are not extremely intelligent, almost a genius, frankly. So however Obama got in, the end result is he has proved himself to be an amazing student and a very smart president, let`s be clear.

(CROSSTALK)

DANA: I think the worst possible place we can take this is to actually engage in a debate about whether Obama deserved it. I mean, there is no question that Obama deserved it.

The point here, if we need to talk about it at all, is to talk about Donald Trump, who I think is genuinely actually not a racist. He`s just a narcissist. And what Letterman is getting at very smartly is that the effect of his boundless narcissism is racist at this point, and he needs to shut up. And we all need to sort of (inaudible).

BEHAR: I think that`s true. I think Bill Maher was saying, making the point, that, you know, could it be that he doesn`t realize what he said is racist? It is possible.

DANA: It`s that he doesn`t care. Because it`s all about Donald. So as long as the spotlight is on Donald, he would say anything. He would cure world hunger if that`s what it took, or he`d kill a puppy.

BEHAR: OK, all right, we`ll have more pop culture.

SIXX: Or kill a puppy. Don`t forget that part.

BEHAR: No, kill a puppy, no, I don`t know if he would kill a puppy. He`d say the puppy didn`t get into puppy school legitimately.

OK, we`ll be right back with more on this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: I`m back with my lovely panel.

So the big news last night was about Osama bin Laden, except on "Geraldo at Large." On that show, it was about Geraldo. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GERALDO RIVERA: Osama bin Laden is dead. Happy days. Happy days, everybody. This is the greatest -- (inaudible) -- this is the greatest night of my career. The bum is dead. The savage who hurt us so grievously. And I am so blessed, I`m so privileged to be at this desk at this moment. That`s why I came to Fox News, to pursue and watch that monster being removed, being punished.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: OK. So Trump, Geraldo, whose ego is a little bigger here?

OBEIDALLAH: That was such an awkward white-guy handshake, too. That was unbelievable.

BEHAR: It`s Fox, you know.

OBEIDALLAH: Geraldo is -- (inaudible) -- it`s as if Geraldo killed bin Laden himself. I mean, he is so like I got it, he`s in the other room, I just killed him, I killed bin Laden.

BEHAR: I love it. It`s so great. I have to like Geraldo--

DANA: I loved it.

BEHAR: -- but that`s just too funny.

DANA: He was so great last night. I watched it. As soon as they announced the press conference, I tuned right into Fox, and he was just completely amazing.

Like, I, for this life of me, where was Shep Smith, where was anyone with a brain on that network? They were like -- they must have dispatched cars all over New York to find these people, but there was Geraldo for like hours, and he had nothing to say. I think he was the first person to talk about Osama bin Laden, because he was just like speculating wildly on what the press conference might be. And he was like--

(CROSSTALK)

DANA: Yes, exactly. And then finally he was like, wait a minute, I have an idea. Maybe it`s -- just like so irresponsible. But God love him. He`s great.

(CROSSTALK)

SIXX: I like the way the cameraman looked like he was trying to push Geraldo out of the picture. It just kept shrinking and kept shrinking. At one point, there was just part of Geraldo on there. Ranting.

OBEIDALLAH: Just a mustache at the end.

(CROSSTALK)

DANA: I love a man with a mustache, but man, that thing is like flying off his face.

BEHAR: Remember when he tried to go into Al Capone`s vault and it was empty? That whole debacle?

(CROSSTALK)

DANA: He`s a national treasure.

OBEIDALLAH: And he claimed that he was under friendly fire at one time, and it was like hundreds of meters away -- hundreds of miles away.

(CROSSTALK)

OBEIDALLAH: But compared to what you see on Fox News, this is nothing on the scale of making things up. This is almost responsible journalism, what happened there.

BEHAR: Aren`t responsible journalists not supposed to talk about themselves, just talk about the story?

OBEIDALLAH: I agree with you. It is the biggest story in the world today, and he`s like -- I got him. That`s what it felt like. I got him.

DANA: But you know, in Geraldo`s defense, that exuberance, perhaps a little premature, was kind of fun.

BEHAR: It was a premature interpretation.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: OK, thank you guys very much. Catch Dean in the off-Broadway comedy show "This Ain`t No Tea Party," Friday and Saturday at the Midtown Theater in New York. And Nikki`s album, "This Is Going to Hurt," comes out tomorrow. Good night, everybody.

END