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Joy Behar Page
Donald Trump Drops Out; Don Lemon Comes Out; Interview with Chaz Bono
Aired May 16, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: To prepare for their upcoming trip to Italy, the entire cast of "Jersey Shore" is ordering computer software that will teach them how to speak Italian. As an added bonus is company is also throwing in software to help them speak English.
Donald Trump is no longer running for president. He made the announcement earlier today at NBC`s "Up Front". Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, HOST, "CELEBRITY APPRENTICE": I`ve decided that we`re going to continue onward with "Celebrity Apprentice". We`re going to continue making lots and lots of money for charity. I will not be running for president, as much as I`d like to. And I want to thank everybody very much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Donald, Donald, I have to tell you, as a comedienne you`re not making my life easier. I need the material. First you take Gary Busey off everyone`s radar, and now this. What have I ever done to you? Nothing.
Here now to discuss all this, are: Omarosa, former contestant on "The Apprentice" and "Celebrity Apprentice"; Stephen A. Smith, host for ESPN radio; and Rachel Sklar, editor-at-large for mediaite.com.
Ok, welcome to the show, you guys.
Omarosa, are you disappointed that he`s not running?
OMAROSA, FORMER CONTESTANT, "THE APPRENTICE": I`m a little disappointed because I know how much he wanted to run. But of course the Osama bin Laden incident really changed the game. And he doesn`t have the national security credentials. He doesn`t really have defense credentials. It makes sense for him to drop out of the race.
BEHAR: Would you have voted for him?
MANIGAULT: I`m a die-hard Democrat, served in the White House, so no. But I would have supported him.
BEHAR: Do you think -- he said that -- Meatloaf said that he thought Trump would make a good president, do you agree?
MANIGAULT: I think he would have been good for the Republicans. This country needs someone who can address the issues of economics, of health care. I don`t know that Donald Trump would be good in any other area but the economic situation; the other areas, not so much.
BEHAR: But Meatloaf would have been good at everything else.
MANIGAULT: He`s good at crying in the board room, which is a no-no.
BEHAR: Now Stephen, do you think that it was his plan to drop out all along? Or did he actually have an intention to possibly run?
STEPHEN A. SMITH, ESPN RADIO: I absolutely believe it was his intention to drop out all along. I know you disagree, Omarosa, but I is respectfully disagree with you. I don`t think there`s any question that he wasn`t going to run for the presidency.
You have to understand how invasive the presidency of the United States is. Donald Trump is somebody; he`s got a magnetic personality. I`ve met him on several occasions, I like him personally, I like some of the things that he talks about. But at the same time, when you look at him and the fact that he has always held, you know, information about his financial background or his financial, you know -- his financial resume per se to some degree close to the vest, obviously as the President of the United States, or running for the presidency of the United States, that`s not going to fly.
And also I would say this. You talked about economics. I believe the same thing about Donald Trump. When I think about him, I think about business. I think about economics. Why is he talking about birthers? Why is he talking about the birth certificate of the President of the United States?
(CROSSTALK)
RACHEL SKLAR, EDITOR-AT LARGE, MEDIAITE.COM : You know what? That is actually the question, I don`t think -- does he really care? Does he really care so deeply? Or did he just want attention? You know, because that was not a good tactic.
And I actually disagree, I think the Osama bin Laden news sealed it, but I think Trump was dead in the water the night of the Correspondents` Dinner.
BEHAR: That did it.
SKLAR: Oh, yes.
BEHAR: He looked very angry that night. Do you think he felt humiliated, Omarosa? You know him.
MANIGAULT: He wasn`t humiliated. He`s been paid to be roasted -- $1 million Comedy Central paid him.
BEHAR: But not by the President of the United States.
MANIGAULT: Let me just tell you. He`s tough-skinned. He`s not some weakling who --
BEHAR: I know that.
MANIGAULT: -- who has to cower under a comedian`s voice.
But I will tell you Stephen, he was very serious. Being the only person on this panel who personally talked to him about his ambitions, this was not just some publicity stunt. He was serious about looking to get the nomination.
BEHAR: What about the timing? He announced it the minute his show finished --
MANIGAULT: Well, Newt just announced and he has a book coming out. Who`s to be taken seriously? Is he just promoting his book? Newt is the biggest joke I think entering this race than anyone.
(CROSSTALK)
SKLAR: It`s really hard with the Republican field --
BEHAR: Wait a second.
MANIGAULT: And really -- he talks about ethics, he talks about family values --
BEHAR: Who?
MANIGAULT: Newt Gingrich, and then --
BEHAR: We`re not talking about Newt Gingrich right now. Let`s stay on Trump.
MANIGAULT: Someone mentioned Newt Gingrich so I needed to point it out that someone wanted to say that Donald was just in it for publicity. Everyone is in this for publicity.
BEHAR: You know, FYI, his numbers dropped precipitously after this whole birther and this asking about the President`s scores to get into Harvard.
MANIGAULT: No question about it.
BEHAR: His poll numbers dropped and his numbers dropped on "Celebrity Apprentice".
SMITH: Well, let me address -- let me say this. Let me say this. When you talk about Donald Trump in terms of him being roasted I thought that he was serious and he was offended but it wasn`t that it was a big deal to him. I think the big deal of it to him is the fact that he didn`t have an opportunity to respond.
If the President is roasting, you have to sit there and take it. I`m quite sure if you know anything about Donald Trump, he would have loved to have had the opportunity to immediately --
MANIGAULT: Oh, he responded.
(CROSSTALK)
SKLAR: He called Seth Meyers a stutterer. It was a great response.
SMITH: Ladies, I am talking about as the only -- the lone gentleman up here --
BEHAR: Who are you calling "ladies", first of all.
SMITH: As the lone gentlemen up here, I`m saying that you would want to be able to respond without having to sit there and listen to the commander-in-chief --
BEHAR: Who told him to come? He came of his own volition.
(CROSSTALK)
SKLAR: He was invited. When I went last year --
MANIGAULT: You are invited to the White House Correspondents` Dinner.
BEHAR: Ok. But he accepted the invitation.
MANIGAULT: Absolutely.
SKLAR: And you know when you`re running for president you are the subject of scrutiny, end of story. I think, you know, I`m not that worried about Donald Trump`s feelings here. I`m really not.
MANIGAULT: He`s not sensitive.
SKLAR: Yes, you know --
BEHAR: Really.
SKLAR: Whatever Donald Trump may or may not feel right now, I don`t believe that he was a good candidate for president.
SMITH: I don`t believe he was serious about being a candidate.
BEHAR: Ok. Here`s a question. Let me ask you.
SMITH: Yes.
BEHAR: You know, no less than Bob Schieffer said that his remarks about the President`s grades were racist. Do you think he was racist?
MANIGAULT: Let me be very clear. He`s a friend. I`m a die-hard Democrat but he`s a friend. And I know for a fact that he`s not a racist. I think he may have been misinformed, misguided, he may ill-spoke; but I do not believe that he`s a racist.
BEHAR: What do you think?
SMITH: I don`t believe that either. I don`t look at Donald Trump and get that from him at all. More importantly than anything else, I think that when we throw that word out there to identify with somebody we need to know unequivocally what we`re talking about, as opposed to saying, did this come across this way to you, that that`s what that person is?
BEHAR: All right. Let me put it this way. Do you think that the remarks about questioning that the President was a bad student and he got into Harvard through some affirmative action --
MANIGAULT: -- that didn`t originate with Donald Trump. That didn`t start with him. So do we call all those folks racist? Because it did not start with Donald Trump and we need to be very clear about that.
BEHAR: Ok. But do you think that that is a racist thought? Even if a person is not a racist? The implication that he got in because he was --
SMITH: I would say on its face, yes. But I would have to see what he said. And the context in which he disseminated that information.
MANIGAULT: And the spirit.
(CROSSTALK)
SMITH: In order to feel the --
SKLAR: There`s something on the birther bandwagon, you know, does not help his case.
SMITH: The birther bandwagon, you`ve got a lot of people look at the Republican Party and they`re saying, if you can`t have somebody to definitively identify with and say, this is the person. They don`t come together and say, this is who we want to go up against Barack Obama. They`ve not go chance at all of winning the presidential election.
If you look at the birthers, what happens is that we ingratiate ourselves with them, with that particular cause, and they`ve built such a following to some degree that all of a sudden it can change the landscape of things.
SKLAR: Right. But is that presidential quality?
SMITH: Well, who cares?
SKLAR: I don`t know --
SMITH: There`s a whole bunch of people that`s running for president don`t have presidential qualities.
SKLAR: Call me old-fashioned. I think integrity matters.
BEHAR: But could those people win? Is it possible that a TV personality, you know, such as Donald Trump, even Huckabee now is announcing on his television show that he`s not running.
SMITH: As somebody who voted for Barack Obama, let`s be clear, as much as I voted for him and as much as I try to support, because I don`t agree with everything he does, let me be clear. As much as I try to support him, he was a junior senator from Chicago, never ran his own business. Never held -- he was a senator but never really did what you would call somebody that built the qualifications to be a president --
BEHAR: Neither did John Kennedy.
SMITH: No, no, I`m answering the question. He still got 69 million votes. So yes, anybody can win. Anybody could win. You`ve got the money, the backing. In the United States of America they can swindle any information. They can spin any information any way they want to.
(CROSSTALK)
SMITH: Yes. How about that? It is possible.
BEHAR: Ok. Thanks. We`ll be back in a minute. That was very good, I enjoyed it but we have to take a break. We`ll be right back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up next on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW. CNN anchor Don Lemon drops by to talk about his decision to reveal that he`s gay.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Not only does CNN anchor Don Lemon have a new book coming out, but today he himself has come out. His memoir is called "Transparent" and he joins me now. Welcome to my show Don. I just love you too.
LEMON: Can I -- can I tell you, Joy --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Oh, it`s going to be a love fest.
LEMON: Oh it`s going to be a love -- I love you, Joy Behar, I watch you every day. Because you know what, you have a sense of humor and you have to have a sense of humor about all things, right?
BEHAR: Oh yes that`s what keeps marriages together.
LEMON: Yes absolutely.
BEHAR: It`s certainly not sex. Now, what do I say to someone who`s just come out besides congratulations?
LEMON: I guess so. You know, it`s funny. Because people have been sending me tweets and messages saying, do I say congratulations for being who you are?
BEHAR: Yes.
LEMON: You know, yes.
BEHAR: For saying who you are in public.
LEMON: But I`d have to say at this point, we should say congratulations.
BEHAR: Definitely.
LEMON: Because it`s a milestone. You have to get to a certain point in order to be comfortable enough to do this. And then, sometimes you`re not that comfortable so you just need to push yourself to do it.
BEHAR: Right. But any particular reason why now?
LEMON: Well, it was part of writing the book. It just sort of came out of writing the book. And -- and I didn`t say, oh, I`m going to go write a book. Someone approached me to write a book, it`s supposed to be this little pamphlet about, you know, brush your teeth, shake your boss` hand and have a firm handshake, smile, be the first one in the office.
BEHAR: So how to be successful?
LEMON: How to be successful. And I started writing it and I said there are enough of these books around. You know, who needs me to say that? And I started writing about my childhood and who I am and it became cathartic.
BEHAR: It just started coming out?
LEMON: It just started coming out of me. And so the more I started writing about it -- I was nervous and I could have taken it out at any point. But then, you know, when the student at Rutgers University killed himself --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
LEMON: -- I said, leave it in there.
BEHAR: The one who was being observed.
LEMON: Tyler Clementi, yes.
BEHAR: Yes and then they put it out and humiliated the boy.
LEMON: Yes and so I said, leave it in there. And because there shouldn`t have to be people like him. And if I had had someone like me who had chosen to live their lives out and proud, there would be no need for the Tyler Clementis of the world or for teenagers to want to kill themselves because of concerns about their sexuality.
BEHAR: Right well, that`s why what you`re doing is worthwhile.
LEMON: Yes.
BEHAR: But it`s very important.
LEMON: Yes.
BEHAR: When they see a successful, gorgeous dude like you who says, listen, this is what I am.
LEMON: What are you -- what are you trying to do Joy?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I`m trying to come on --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Are you hitting on me?
BEHAR: I`m hitting on you. You know once somebody comes out of the closet --
LEMON: Didn`t you read the book, Joy? Obviously you haven`t read the book, though.
BEHAR: No, I did. I did. I didn`t read the whole thing. But you know, I read a lot of what I can.
LEMON: Yes.
BEHAR: Anyway there`s a lot of homophobes out there, though.
LEMON: Yes.
BEHAR: Now, you have an audience --
LEMON: Who are you telling?
BEHAR: I know. And so do you think it`s going to hurt you at all professionally? Or do you care? Or what?
LEMON: You know, I -- I would say I cared yesterday. Right? But --
BEHAR: You cared yesterday?
LEMON: I cared yesterday, before it happened. And I don`t know if "care" is the right word for today. Because I feel like whatever happens from this point on, what will be, will be. And if the broadcast -- and if -- if there`s not enough room for a gay anchor, gay black anchor, or whatever it is. Then, my career will transform into something else. I will be successful and I will -- I will prosper at something else.
And I think that`s a lesson in this especially to young people. Is that you can -- all you have to do is just keep moving. Just stay in the game. And you know that.
BEHAR: Yes, you have to keep doing stuff.
LEMON: You just stay in the game and stay alive. So if it doesn`t work out that I`m not the anchorman and the main guy on CNN or whatever, then something else will happen and I`ll be fine.
BEHAR: Do you think that other news people, male and female, will come out as a result of this?
LEMON: I don`t know if it`s as a result. I think every little bit helps -- drip, drip, drip -- everything helps. I`m not saying they should. It would be great if they did, quite honestly.
BEHAR: How would they do it? If they don`t have a book, I always think, how are they going to do it? Go on TV and say, I`m gay today or you know --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: You just tweet it. Just tweet it.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: -- and other news like Trump is not running for president.
LEMON: Just do what I did last night when the "New York Times" article came out. I tweeted it to the people. And I said, I`m just joking, just tweet it. But I think it`s --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Tweet it, that`s interesting.
LEMON: -- I think it`s just important to live your own truth --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
LEMON: -- in your own being, in your own life. And if someone asks you the question in an interview or on any format, just say yes, next question.
BEHAR: Now you know -- I know that you`re an objective news person.
LEMON: Yes.
BEHAR: And so you`re going to have people sit there with you like Rick Santorum who seems like a big homophobe and others because they`re running for president or whatever. And we`ll talk about gay marriage, et cetera. How do you feel that you`ll be able to handle that easily?
LEMON: Well, I can talk about President Obama and be objective and I`m a black man. I can talk about having a mortgage and having your house not being worth what it was three, four years ago and -- and be a journalist.
BEHAR: Right.
LEMON: I don`t think -- I don`t think just because I`m gay that it makes, it takes my brain away.
BEHAR: Right.
LEMON: Or it makes me not be objective. I`ve been doing this job for a long time. And I`ve been objective and I think I`ve been fair. And I`m human. And if I make a mistake and I go too far in something then, I`ll just apologize and I`ll move on. People who are heterosexual do that.
BEHAR: Yes.
LEMON: I mean, you know, you cover issues that probably have to do with being a Jewish woman or what have you.
BEHAR: I`m not Jewish, I`m Italian but whatever.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: As a woman, so I`m sorry.
BEHAR: No people think I`m Jewish no matter what I say.
LEMON: You know why I`ve say that, it`s because of our conversation before this.
BEHAR: Oh, during the break.
LEMON: Yes.
BEHAR: But I happen to be Italian.
LEMON: Yes I know.
BEHAR: I mean, I say it constantly. I`m Italian. No one believes me. You know --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: You`re every woman.
BEHAR: A few years ago Don, I got a call, happy Hanukkah. I said, ma, I`m not Jewish. Ok now tell me -- tell me about --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I say you`re every woman. We were just having that conversation before that`s why I said that.
BEHAR: Tell me about the down low. I must hear about the down low.
LEMON: You know, I have to tell you -- I don`t really know about the down low because I haven`t played that game. I know of it.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Tell us the game. Explain it to me.
LEMON: No it`s because -- it`s because in black culture the worst thing you can be really is a gay man, right? A gay black man -- that`s the worst thing you can be. So you`re afraid that black women won`t accept you, your family, your church --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes, yes.
LEMON: -- people -- you know, every other gay person who`s not black has to deal with the over things. But you have that -- that whole thing and the church especially. You have to deal with that. And that`s very important as a black person. That`s your base.
BEHAR: Yes, yes.
LEMON: Those are your people. Your Italian people, those are your peeps, right? And so --
BEHAR: A lot of cultures though, are like that. Not just the black community.
LEMON: Well, it`s even -- I`m here to tell you -- in the black community, it`s worse.
BEHAR: It`s worse.
LEMON: And hopefully it`s getting better. Hopefully people like me will make it better. But I think it`s sort of the vestiges of discrimination and slavery and thinking that if you`re gay, that you`re effeminate. Or that you`re not a man.
BEHAR: You`re weaker. Weaker.
LEMON: Or weaker. Right? And nothing at all. I don`t want to be a woman. I`m not effeminate. I`m not weak at all. Certainly ask anyone who works with me or who knows me or who used to date with me.
BEHAR: Oh baby.
LEMON: -- who used to date me. So I`m not weak at all and so I just think that`s -- that`s part of it. And that the black community especially needs to get over that. And I can`t speak for other communities because I`m not that.
BEHAR: Yes, of course, I understand.
LEMON: Yes.
BEHAR: That`s interesting. And the down low -- is the down low really where you`re really posing as a hetero in your personal life? That would -- but then you really go on the side and get your needs --
LEMON: It`s -- it`s a double life. It`s a double life where you --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: But you don`t feel you were ever in that?
LEMON: No.
BEHAR: No, no, no.
LEMON: No, no, no. And let me tell you that just doesn`t happen in the black community. It`s more prevalent in the black community --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes. Oh yes. Right.
LEMON: -- but it happens in all cultures and all races and even different religions from different countries.
BEHAR: I like how you said, God made you this way.
LEMON: God -- I was born gay just as I was born black.
BEHAR: Exactly, exactly it`s not a choice. People have to get with the program.
LEMON: If it was a choice then, I would have decided when I was a kid or when I prayed all those years that I would change. If it was a choice, something would have happened, I would have changed. It`s not a choice.
BEHAR: Right. Ok. Well, we`ll have more with Don Lemon in just a minute, don`t go away.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Chaz Bono talks about what it was like to make the transition from female to male.
A.J. HAMMER, HLN HOST, "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT": Tonight on "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT" Donald Trump`s big no-go on the race for the White House. Did Trump totally wimp out? At 11:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific on HLN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back talking to CNN anchor Don Lemon about his memoir "Transparent" and why he decided to come out. I don`t like to say out of the closet.
LEMON: I was never really in the closet.
BEHAR: You weren`t?
LEMON: No.
BEHAR: So it doesn`t need (INAUDIBLE) -- come out to America.
LEMON: Can I thank you?
BEHAR: Sure.
LEMON: Because all day, this is the first time I`ve laughed. So thank you, Joy Behar.
BEHAR: Oh, my pleasure.
LEMON: Thank you for making me smile and having a sense of humor.
BEHAR: You should always have that, Don. You should not be constricted and feel bad about yourself in any way.
LEMON: Yes. We should go on the road together.
BEHAR: We will. We`ll get another show together, you and I.
Now, there`s a part in the book that`s serious about the childhood molestation. And I don`t want people to think that because you were molested as a child that that`s why you`re gay. People put those together sometimes.
LEMON: Even journalists today were asking me, now, in the article it didn`t say if you thought that you were gay because you were molested. I`m like, "No, the two have nothing to do with each other." Most predators are heterosexual anyway and they choose children of the opposite sex. It has nothing to do with --
BEHAR: Well, they also choose children of their sex because really it`s all about power.
LEMON: Right.
BEHAR: You know. I mean there`s plenty of that.
LEMON: Yes.
BEHAR: But no, it`s something that people get mixed up. I mean remember years ago they used to think that if you were a domineering mother that you would have a gay son.
LEMON: Yes.
BEHAR: People, these kinds of things, these things are gone. It`s all about this now that you`re born this way.
LEMON: If you were around girls too much, it`s like it`s going to rub off. Like, really? Come on. That`s not going to happen. I think it`s because people want some way to explain being gay. Oh, you`re gay because of this. Not just because it is who you are naturally.
BEHAR: Do you think that if people would just get that, that it`s not a choice, that this is the way people are born, that the black community and other communities that eschew this type of lifestyle would change their minds?
LEMON: I think it would be great if people would get that. Right?
BEHAR: Yes.
LEMON: But I think I would just be happy with allowing people to live their lives. And to do as whatever you think the higher power says, whatever you think. It`s God or Yahweh, or whoever you think it is, live and let live, not judge. I would just be happy with that.
If we lived, if we really abided by what our constitution says and what this country was built on that everyone has the right to be who they are.
BEHAR: That`s true. But people do stand in your way.
LEMON: Yes.
BEHAR: You also talk about facing racism in your book. Now, we`re talking previously to this interview with -- about Donald Trump who`s now saying he`s not going to run for president. And Bob Schieffer famously said Donald Trump is being racist when he was positioning himself with the birthers.
LEMON: Yes. I think he said, this whole thing is tinged with or veiled in racism or something. I had Donald Trump on the show.
BEHAR: Oh, yes.
LEMON: And it was the night that Osama bin Laden was killed.
BEHAR: Oh. Not a good night for that.
LEMON: Not a good night for that. But I did have him on the show earlier and then the President came out later. And I talked about it --
BEHAR: The President came out too? Kidding. Kidding. Ok, go ahead.
LEMON: That`s the breaking news. Let me tell you. Ok. That`s in the book. No.
I had Donald Trump on and I said to him -- and I think he really started to think about it. I said, Mr. Trump, are you aware of the prejudices in this culture and the assumptions about African-Americans? And he said, you know, what do you mean? And I said that they`re not as smart as white Americans. And by doing this, by questioning the president`s education, that you`re perpetuating --
BEHAR: What did he say?
LEMON: -- that myth. He goes, well, I`ve always --
BEHAR: The blacks.
LEMON: He said, my black friends just think it`s absolutely ridiculous. And he just went on with his argument.
BEHAR: Ok. His book is called "Transparent". We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: America knew the only child of Sonny and Cher as Chastity. And whenever she appeared on her parents` variety series, she usually stole the show. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SONNY BONO: You got your choice now. You can be a good little angel or you can be a naughty little devil. Now--
CHASTITY BONO: I want to be a naughty --
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
SONNY BONO: All right, then pull it!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: But after a lifetime of struggling with identity issues, Chastity acted on the realization that she was a man living in a woman`s body and became Chaz.
Chaz talks about that struggle in "Transition: The Story of How I Became a Man." So great to have you here.
CHAZ BONO: Thank you.
BEHAR: I was just thinking about how your name Chastity lent itself so easily to Chaz.
BONO: It did, yes. Well, and I never went by Chastity. I always hated that name, it`s the truth.
BEHAR: Why?
BONO: Well, you know, I felt like a guy and I`m named Chastity. It`s just -- you know.
BEHAR: Yeah, right.
BONO: You know, just -- it`s not what you want. So I was -- I was always Chas, with an s. And then so I just kind of -- it was easy to make the transition into Chaz.
BEHAR: Yes. It would be like my real name is Josephine. I could have been Joseph.
BONO: Right, exactly. That`s exactly it.
BEHAR: So -- we`re looking at that clip, you say you were around 3 years old, you have the most beautiful hair. Your hair is like spun gold, my God.
BONO: Yeah.
BEHAR: Beautiful.
BONO: Thank you. Not anymore. Got dark.
BEHAR: It got dark. Well, unless --
BONO: That`s what happens.
BEHAR: Unless you`re Swedish, you`re never going to keep the hair.
BONO: Right, exactly.
BEHAR: But even then, you`re only about 3 years old there?
BONO: I`m guessing like 3, 4. That`s like 2. And I think what we saw before, probably about 4.
BEHAR: And did you -- even then, did you know something was off with you?
BONO: I don`t really remember that time, to be honest. So I would say at about 5, yes, I did.
BEHAR: You did?
BONO: Yes.
BEHAR: And what did it feel like? What sensation did you have at 5?
BONO: I felt like one of the boys. My friends were boys and I was interested in the things that they were. And I didn`t really -- I mean, when I was younger -- I didn`t really get girls for the most part. I really didn`t understand them. I didn`t understand what made them tick or why they thought, you know, the things that they liked to play with was fun or any of that.
BEHAR: Right. Well, a lot of kids, girls, think that they`re like that, and they`re just tomboys. And then they kind of outgrow that and become girls, or girlie girls.
BONO: Right.
BEHAR: But you did not.
BONO: No, clearly.
BEHAR: Yeah, you did not.
BONO: Yeah.
BEHAR: Clearly you did not.
BONO: Yeah.
BEHAR: And you write in the book that your dad treated you like a boy.
BONO: Uh-huh.
BEHAR: I found that interesting, that Sonny, who was a big conservative --
BONO: Well, that was later in life.
BEHAR: Oh, he used to be a liberal when you were a kid?
BONO: Well, you know, we never talked politics when I was little like that. But from like what my mom and my aunt said, yes, I mean, I think at one point he was, you know, like a -- you know, some kind of -- when they were in the `60s, like a liaison or something with the Democratic Party. So, yes. So I think he got more conservative as he got older.
BEHAR: As he got older, wanted to run for the mayor of Palm Springs.
BONO: Yes.
BEHAR: Maybe that`s the ticket he could run on too. You never know with politicians. But anyway, he had a nickname for you. What was that?
BONO: He started calling me Fred.
BEHAR: Fred?
BONO: Actually, yes. And we got that --
BEHAR: Why?
BONO: We were in Palm Springs. He always had a place in Palm Springs. And so we`d go up on weekends all the time. We were there and there was this toy store called Uncle Don`s that I always used to love to go to. And you know, they had -- I don`t remember if it was like mugs or pins or whatever with kids` names. A bunch of names.
BEHAR: Right.
BONO: And they never had my name, ever. So he said, well, let`s pick another name. What do you like? I mean, we`re going around. He said, what about Fred? What do you think of Fred? I said, yes, I like Fred, that`s good. And that stuck.
BEHAR: Isn`t that interesting.
BONO: Yes.
BEHAR: So do you think at that point -- and I know that in your book, you talk about how he was much more accepting of your lesbian period.
BONO: Uh-huh.
BEHAR: And do you think that he knew something that others did not see? Or was he just --
BONO: No, I don`t -- I mean, I don`t think so. Again, we never got a chance to talk about this, because he died before -- but no, I think that for him it was just, you know, really easy at that time. He was a single dad. And I spent a lot of time with him. And I was interested in the stuff that he was into.
BEHAR: He liked that.
BONO: And he liked that. And I wanted to be like him.
BEHAR: He didn`t have a son.
BONO: Exactly. He didn`t have a son at that point. And so it was easy and it was fun and he liked it.
BEHAR: Yes. I said to you before on the other show that we did that you said at some point on the show, I want to grow up to be big and strong like my daddy.
BONO: Yes, I always did. I always -- you know, growing up, I just -- I adored my dad. And yes, I always wanted to be like him.
BEHAR: Yeah. Not like Cher?
BONO: No.
BEHAR: Why not?
BONO: Because I identified with him. I mean, that`s -- you know, I wanted to grow up to be a man, not a woman. So I identified with him.
BEHAR: Mom was not really that supportive, was she, of this whole thing in the beginning?
BONO: Of? You know, I think --
BEHAR: How about when you came out as a lesbian? How was she then?
BONO: An initial really bad reaction, which was partly due to the fact that everybody else knew and she didn`t.
BEHAR: Oh, so she felt left out.
BONO: So she felt --
(CROSSTALK)
BONO: Her feelings were hurt. And she wasn`t happy that I was gay. It was both. But a big part of it -- a big part of it was that I think she felt foolish, that you know, everybody else knew.
So -- but no, I mean -- you know, in fairness to her, I, you know -- it`s the 1970s and she has a daughter. And she has probably all these fantasies of all the things we`re going to do together. And I`m, you know, not interested in any of it and don`t want to be anything like her.
BEHAR: Yes. I have a friend who was a lesbian. She passed away recently. And her mother said to her -- an Italian mother, she said to her, you`re not the daughter I wanted. And she said to her mother, well, you`re not the mother I wanted. They had that conversation.
BONO: Yeah, well, luckily, we haven`t. So -- I`m glad of that.
BEHAR: But -- yes. She, I mean, I have notes here about things that she said to you, that she told you you walked like a truck driver.
BONO: Uh-huh.
BEHAR: And you dressed like a slob.
BONO: Yes.
BEHAR: As a child --
BONO: Teenager.
BEHAR: Teenager.
BONO: Yes, those were the fun teenage years.
BEHAR: A lot of mothers say that.
BONO: Of course.
BEHAR: You dress like a slob.
BONO: Right.
BEHAR: And they made a deal that Chaz could wear anything he wanted except for boys` shoes. What`s up with that?
BONO: Boys` shoes threw her over the edge for some reason. I don`t know why. I don`t know why.
BEHAR: I guess, you know, because women like Cher love shoes.
BONO: I guess. I mean, and it`s a lot -- no, let`s -- I was talking to somebody else, it`s not like I was in jeans and t-shirt and high heels. But, you know, would she like me --
BEHAR: You were kind of butch then too.
BONO: Oh, yes. But she liked -- you know, I had to get the girl sneakers, not the boy sneakers. I don`t know why.
BEHAR: I see. It was like -- almost like she was trying her best to keep you as a girl.
BONO: Yeah, I guess.
BEHAR: As a girl, as a girl. Yeah. And it`s funny, but Sonny was very supportive of you, when you said you were, as I said before. But Cher wanted to kick you out of the house? Or did kick you out?
BONO: She did. She did kick me out.
BEHAR: She kicked you out of the house?
BONO: Yes.
BEHAR: How old were you then?
BONO: 18.
BEHAR: You were 18.
BONO: Yes.
BEHAR: And what were you supposed to do? Go find a hotel room?
BONO: I had a girlfriend, luckily.
BEHAR: Yeah.
BONO: I moved in with her. And then -- but it was a quick kick out of the house. I could have gone back about a week, but I decided not to. But no, she freaked out for about a week. And then she called me up and apologized. And at that point I was living here in New York. And she was in L.A., and she said, why don`t you fly out and bring your girlfriend. And let`s, you know--
BEHAR: So she smoothed it over.
BONO: Yes. Definitely.
BEHAR: But it`s ironic, isn`t it, that she is such a gay icon, and that she would have any kind of trepidation with a gay child.
BONO: It`s different when it`s your kid.
BEHAR: I guess so. But I mean, she`s surrounded -- she`s got hair dressers and makeup artists and costumers who are probably all gay. It`s fascinating. I mean, it`s just an irony about Cher that I could dine on out for about 10 minutes.
We have much more with Chaz on the way, so stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Chaz Bono. And we are talking about his transition from woman to man. As part of your transition, you`ve been on a lot of testosterone. Which I remember in the documentary, like --
BONO: Well, not -- you know, like a normal amount.
BEHAR: What`s a normal amount?
BONO: Well, you know, what -- you know, actually I mean, mine is a little higher than -- for my age, because I`m -- you know, the procedure really gets you to go through a second puberty. So like a teenage amount.
BEHAR: A teenage amount of testosterone.
BONO: Yes.
BEHAR: Is it dangerous to put testosterone into your body?
BONO: I think if you`re regulated by a doctor and your blood is checked often and everything, no. I feel pretty safe doing that. I mean, you know, I`m at risk for things that men are at risk for now. And I`m not at risk for a lot of the things that I would have been at risk for if I had stayed a woman.
BEHAR: That`s so interesting.
BONO: Yes.
BEHAR: So you could get a heart attack.
BONO: Right.
BEHAR: The kind of heart attack a man would get.
BONO: Right. But like--
BEHAR: Prostate cancer?
BONO: No, no, of course not. But like osteoporosis, one of the treatments for it is testosterone, so now I don`t have to worry about that at all.
BEHAR: You`ll always walk upright.
BONO: Exactly, I will.
BEHAR: I love it. But the testosterone, it`s an interesting drug, testosterone.
BONO: It is.
BEHAR: You know, women kind of lose their sex drive as they get older, a little bit, you know?
BONO: Of course.
BEHAR: But men don`t because of the testosterone.
BONO: Uh-huh.
BEHAR: So did you then become very sexually more interested as a man?
BONO: I did.
BEHAR: You did.
BONO: I did. I would say before, my sex drive was -- you know, probably not so great. You know, medium to low. And so yes, I did experience a big difference going on the testosterone.
BEHAR: And did your girlfriend appreciate that?
BONO: I think she did, actually.
BEHAR: Yes?
BONO: Yes.
BEHAR: Well, good for her.
BONO: I do, I think she did. I mean--
BEHAR: Yes.
BONO: I mean, I experience sex a little bit differently than I did before.
BEHAR: Really? How?
BONO: It just feels -- for me, a little bit more biologic -- like a biological need, versus an emotional thought or feeling.
BEHAR: Oh, oh, it`s that old thing that men just want to get laid. And they`re not thinking about like all the attachment and --
BONO: Yes. I mean --
BEHAR: All the damn foreplay that women put them through.
(LAUGHTER)
BONO: Jenny is a big cuddler. You know--
BEHAR: She`s a cuddler. Yes.
BONO: So it`s like that kind of stuff. It`s like, now let`s cuddle. I`m like, come on, I want to either grab something, I`m hungry or --
BEHAR: Let`s eat or do it.
BONO: I want to go to sleep, or whatever.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: How else have you changed as a man? Do you, like, want the remote control more often?
BONO: No, that -- I was like that before. Most of the things haven`t, I mean, people -- are you more into sports now? No, I liked them before. I`m slightly more gadget-oriented now.
BEHAR: Really?
BONO: Yes, I don`t know why but --
BEHAR: You like to hang out in hardware stores?
BONO: No, no, not those kind of gadgets, like the new toys. You know, like when the new, when the latest --
BEHAR: The iPad?
BONO: Exactly, comes out, I`m like, oh yeah, I really want the new toys.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: And you know, in the documentary you get a little bit nastyish for a period of time there.
BONO: I did, yes.
BEHAR: That was an interesting part of the documentary, I thought. You just were like turning. And -- impatient. And like, put the dinner on the table. Just like a macho guy.
BONO: You know, we went through a difficult time. And you really -- you see it on there. And we were -- look, it was -- we went through a lot. I think I say at the end of the film, but you know, Jenny was in grad school, I was transitioning. She was dealing with some alcohol issues. It was a lot all at once. So we had some trying times. But we were able to, you know, work through it, which was amazing.
BEHAR: I saw that in the movie, that you did work it out.
BONO: Yes. We did.
BEHAR: She was quite -- she`s a strong girl in many ways.
BONO: She is, yes.
BEHAR: Yes. You recent did an interview with David Letterman.
BONO: Yes.
BEHAR: And let`s take a quick look at the clip from that interview.
BONO: OK.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BONO: I just never felt like a female.
DAVID LETTERMAN, TALK SHOW HOST: Right. Is this connected to homosexuality? Or--
BONO: No, not at all.
LETTERMAN: Incidental to homosexuality?
BONO: It really is. I mean, there are transgender people who are straight, there are transgender people who are gay, it`s like the whole thing. So two separate issues.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Is it difficult to answer questions like that? They`re very personal.
BONO: No, I actually -- I mean, it was nice to do that, actually, with Dave. Because, you know, I think he asked questions that a lot of people think and really don`t understand. So I felt like it was great to be able to break it down. It was like a real transgender 101 that I got to do with Dave. And that was good.
BEHAR: What do you think is the confusion that most people have?
BONO: I -- I do -- I think they confuse sexual orientation and gender identity.
BEHAR: It`s two different things?
BONO: And it`s two completely different things. And one really has nothing to do with the other. So I think that`s, you know -- and I think what can complicate it is people like me. You know, I complicate it. I messed it up too. I thought, OK, I`m attracted to women, I must be a lesbian. And it took me many, many years to realize, no, it`s not that I`m a lesbian, it`s that I`m transgender.
BEHAR: That you`re a man attracted to a woman.
BONO: That I`m a man attracted to a woman, exactly.
BEHAR: I see. That`s what drives people crazy about the whole thing.
BONO: Yes. So it is very confusing.
BEHAR: But your girlfriend is a lesbian.
BONO: My girlfriend is actually bisexual.
BEHAR: OK. But she`s attracted to women -- oh, lucky for her, she`s attracted to both.
BONO: Attracted to both, exactly. Lucky for me too.
BEHAR: Wow, that`s cool.
BONO: Yes, yes.
BEHAR: Uh-huh.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: So physically, though, I mean, I don`t want to go into too much of it because we`ve heard a lot about it.
BONO: Right.
BEHAR: You had this I guess you call it a mastectomy?
BONO: Well, you really call it a top surgery. I mean, that`s what it`s called in our world. Kind of, because it`s not exactly a mastectomy. It`s not taking stuff away because there`s illness there. So it`s really you`re taking breast tissue away, but you`re leaving stuff there to also turn it into a male-looking chest.
BEHAR: Yes, right, I see. And then -- but you haven`t had the other surgery.
BONO: Right.
BEHAR: And you want to explain it to the transgender community maybe --
BONO: Well, no, no. What I was saying to you is, yes, I want people to understand that this is -- this was, you know -- I mean, I don`t -- I think -- for people who want to do that, I think it`s a great thing.
BEHAR: This is the genitalia and the bottom part of your body.
BONO: Yes, exactly, and for some people it`s really important. For me, the most important thing was that I looked and felt male, and that when I interacted in the world, people would perceive me as I always felt. And so I personally am waiting for the technology to get a little better.
But, you know, for guys who are happy with the way it is now, I think that`s great. You know, I think that`s really cool.
BEHAR: Well, they show a little of surgery that -- in the documentary.
BONO: They do.
BEHAR: A sort of a class that you went to.
BONO: Yes. It was a lecture about--
BEHAR: A lecture?
BONO: Yes, from a plastic surgeon who does that surgery.
BEHAR: It looked like it would be a rough surgery.
BONO: That`s kind of how I feel. It`s kind of a rough surgery. So I just -- I`m hoping, though, if I wait a little bit, a little bit longer, they`ll have slightly better results. And that`s just what I need personally.
BEHAR: OK, all right. We`ll be back with some more with Chaz. Stay there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Chaz Bono. You know, when I watched the documentary, which I really highly recommend.
BONO: Thank you.
BEHAR: It`s very interesting stuff. And it`s not boring. And it`s not --
BONO: No, it`s fun too. There`s some really funny parts in it. It is, it`s not boring.
BEHAR: And I have to say that my own impression of you is that you are a much happier person now.
BONO: Yes.
BEHAR: That you seem centered, that you are not anxiety-ridden.
BONO: No, it`s true.
BEHAR: And it`s such -- it`s really nice to see that.
BONO: Thank you.
BEHAR: You know? And I hope you continue in that way.
BONO: Yeah.
BEHAR: Helping other kids now who are dealing with this kind of thing.
BONO: Yeah.
BEHAR: That must be so hard on children.
BONO: It`s, you know, these children that I work with, they`re amazing. And even more so, their parents, who are there and supportive. And so we work -- we work with the whole family, with the parents, siblings, the kids, and it`s a great -- it is a great support network.
BEHAR: I mean, the parents probably are confused about what to do. And they`ve -- like I said before, if a girl is acting like a tomboy, they probably don`t think anything of it.
BONO: And you don`t, I mean, you know, and you wouldn`t. And our kids, in our group are kids that, you know, it wasn`t that they were acting like a tomboy. They were saying I`m a boy, I`m a boy, I`m a boy.
BEHAR: I`m a boy.
BONO: So they made their parents stop and take notice and find out how to get them help.
BEHAR: But what do you say to a little 5-year-old? What would you say to a kid?
BONO: I would find a professional who is used to dealing with that and talk to them, and, you know, help that child to be comfortable.
BEHAR: Is it always true that a kid who says I`m a boy at 5 years old will eventually want to do the transgender surgery?
BONO: You mean the transition.
BEHAR: The transition.
BONO: You know, I don`t know of any who haven`t. But this is all -- you know, I think it`s -- we will know more, but so far I haven`t seen anybody. I mean, these kids are exactly the way I was. You know, they are exactly the way I was, only much braver, because, you know, they`re talking about it and doing something about it.
BEHAR: Right. Can you imagine when you were five years old?
BONO: No, not at all.
BEHAR: I mean, the `70s?
BONO: Exactly.
BEHAR: You know.
BONO: Yeah.
BEHAR: What are your plans now for your life? What are you going to do now?
BONO: I`m going to take a little break -- and--
BEHAR: From being interviewed.
BONO: I wrote a book, did a documentary, and then have been promoting everything. So I`m going to take a breather and regroup and start doing more stuff.
BEHAR: Like, do you have a career idea? Do you want to be a performer? I mean, you grew up with that.
BONO: I did grow up -- you know, I don`t know. I talk about in the book -- that one of -- I went to school here, performing arts, I was a drama major. I always had a really hard time playing female roles. And in my senior year, I actually played a man in our big play and was really good. And so I thought maybe I`ll take a class and see how that feels now that I can do that. So--
BEHAR: Well, I wish you all the luck in the world, Chaz.
BONO: Thank you.
BEHAR: It`s lovely to meet you.
BONO: Thank you. You too.
BEHAR: His book is called "Transition: The Story of How I Became a Man." And check your local listings to see when his documentary, "Becoming Chaz," is reairing on Own.
Good night, everybody. Thanks for watching.
END
