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Joy Behar Page
New Schwarzenegger Details; Casey Anthony Murder Trial; Interview with Malcolm McDowell
Aired May 26, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: One after another, political power brokers keep getting caught with their pants down. Arnold Schwarzenegger, John Edwards, John Ensign, Larry Craig; I can go on forever. I can only think of one political leader who`s strong and smart and manages to remain dignified and fully clothed. I`m just saying.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, George Anthony takes the stand again as the defense still claims to have family secrets that could change the case. With the spotlight on Casey`s father, Joy wants to know how Casey`s relationship with her mother will come into play.
Then, as Arnold denies he used state resources to cover up his affairs, John Edwards is on the brink of being indicted for using campaign funds to do just that. So why do powerful men risk their careers for sex?
Plus, the great actor Malcolm McDowell talks about the 40th anniversary of "A Clockwork Orange", one of the most controversial films ever made.
That and more starting right now.
BEHAR: Surprising details are still emerging in the Arnold Schwarzenegger scandal. Another alleged mistress, Gigi Goyette, is breaking her silence about what she says was a long-term affair with Arnold that began when she was 16.
And now the California attorney general is launching an inquiry into the former governor`s potential misuse of taxpayer funds to cover up his extramarital affairs. These are claims that Schwarzenegger denies, of course.
With me now to talk about the latest developments are Rikki Klieman, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor; M. Gary Neuman, mental health counselor and author of "The Truth about Cheating: why men stray and what you can do to prevent it" -- right; and Jerry Penacoli, correspondent for "Extra".
M. GARY NEUMAN, MENTAL HEALTH COUNSELOR: Thank you.
BEHAR: Welcome to the show.
Jerry, let me start with you. You recently spoke to Gigi Goyette on "Extra". Let`s take a look at that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GIGI GOYETTE, ALLEGED SCHWARZENEGGER MISTRESS: Arnold is a very physical, sexual, voracious appetite male that likes a lot of physical attention. His body and his je ne sais quoi, his magnetism that he had with women was just he was so intense, it was hard to say no.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: The old je ne sais quoi that gets you in trouble.
JERRY PENACOLI, CORRESPONDENT, "EXTRA": I`ll tell you.
BEHAR: How long did their affair allegedly last?
PENACOLI: She claims that it lasted for decades. As you mentioned, they met in the `70s when she was 16. Let`s call crime busters because Arnie was committing a crime. She lost her virginity, she claims, to Arnold Schwarzenegger. They hooked up again in 1989, and it was a "same time next year" kind of hook up at his annual fitness convention in Ohio. And she claims that they saw each other once a year and had a sexual tryst until 2001.
BEHAR: Ok.
PENACOLI: And sometimes having sex right under Maria Shriver`s nose as the family and Maria were staying in the same hotel.
BEHAR: He seems to like that. Under her nose. That`s part of his pathology, allegedly.
PENACOLI: Yes.
BEHAR: But you know, Rikki, statutory rape, yes? 16-year-old girl?
RIKKI KLIEMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. In certain jurisdictions. But nothing`s going to happen to him about this. It`s way too long ago. Statute of limitations has run. And that`s -- it`s just another part of the scandal. Not a part of his legal problems.
BEHAR: I have a problem with that statute of limitations when it comes to sex -- rape and molestation. The priest scandal in the Catholic Church also claims the statute of limitations because these kids were 5 and 6 and 7 and 8 years old and now 30 years later they have --
(CROSSTALK)
KLIEMAN: That`s a little different. That`s a little different, though.
BEHAR: Why?
KLIEMAN: Because, you know, with children the statute is what they say told until they`re majority. So yes, they can complain later on. But for a situation also where you`ve got a repressed memory, so a lot of those kids had repressed memories, and then it can start again. But in terms of Arnold and Gigi, nothing.
BEHAR: I see. Ok. One more question for Jerry. What else did Gigi tell you? Anything else?
PENACOLI: Oh, she was -- it was an hour-long interview, and she was completely up front about everything. Arnold, in fact, called her, she claims, because she didn`t find out about the scandal until the paparazzi were in her driveway in Malibu and she had no idea what was going on. They started firing questions at her and she had no idea what was happening.
So she called Arnold`s office. He calls her back personally, she claims, and he says, please do me one favor and remain quiet. Do not talk to anybody about this.
So I said, why the hell are you talking to me? And she said, because I need to get this monkey off my back. She said, I have never talked about this publicly and I just feel horrible about it now, especially since she thought that nothing would ever come out.
BEHAR: I feel so horrible I can`t wait to tell "Extra" about it. I just -- I`m so upset.
PENACOLI: Yes. Ok. Point well taken.
However, Joy, she did publicly make an apology to Maria direct to our cameras. So you know, for whatever it`s worth, she felt that it was important to get it out of her system.
BEHAR: Ok.
PENACOLI: Now, I said why didn`t you feel any remorse when you were having sex with her husband while they were married?
BEHAR: Uh-huh.
PENACOLI: And she said, because I felt like I had ownership of him because I had him first.
KLIEMAN: Oh, God.
BEHAR: I see. And remember the je ne sais quoi. Let`s not forget that.
Now, Gary, is a voracious sexual appetite any excuse here for cheating at all? And you know, the fact that he was a bodybuilder and sometimes they talk about ballet dancers like that, that they`re very sexual because they`re always in touch with their bodies. What do you say to that? You`re a shrink.
NEUMAN: Well, listen, no more than somebody who wants a lot of money has the right to cheat and right to steal. You know? In other words, the idea of having a high libido doesn`t mean that you cheat. It means that, of course, you might have to have more sex in your life and you can have that with your wife, by the way. You know, this idea, I`ve proven through studies, that women who are happy in their marriage have sex double the amount that women who are unhappy in their marriage --
BEHAR: Well, maybe Maria wasn`t happy. I mean, you know, there`s always that.
NEUMAN: The point is women are more than happy to have sex if they are emotionally connected to the man. So men who are emotionally kind people get a lot more sex. So a high libido has nothing to do with cheating. It might have to do with, you know, having a richer relationship with your spouse.
BEHAR: I see. Jerry?
PENACOLI: I will tell you this, that Gigi alleges that Arnie basically wasn`t getting the type of sex that he liked at home. Again, still, no reason to -- no reason to cheat. But this is what he was using as an excuse.
BEHAR: What type of sex --
PENACOLI: And when he did get married --
BEHAR: Yes.
PENACOLI: When he did get married and was continuing this once a-year affair with this Gigi Goyette, she says that he asked one thing, that they couldn`t have intercourse anymore. So she claims that they called it outercourse because there was nothing, you know -- no sexual intercourse.
NEUMAN: Please. This guy --
PENACOLI: I`m just -- don`t shoot the messenger. I`m just relaying what she said.
BEHAR: No, we`re not. We understand. But Gary, go ahead
NEUMAN: Be careful. He`s an egomaniac. And the idea that this man likes to control, he wants to be in charge. These political people who are powerful. People kiss up to these people. They begin to believe their own crap, you know. And they think everybody around them is just going to do everything they say, and they just are narcissistic.
And to put any other idea on it is so unfair to good marriages and hard-working men and women who have good relationships.
BEHAR: It`s kind of a character disorder, isn`t it?
NEUMAN: It is. It is. It`s not about the sex.
BEHAR: Rikki, all of these revelations are going to get some more cash for Maria, no?
KLIEMAN: No.
BEHAR: They won`t?
KLIEMAN: Number one -- I mean people all think that. They think oh, his conduct is so terrible, the allegations are terrible. Number one, if there`s a pre-nuptial agreement, which it has been said that there is, that`s the end of that. I mean, and she gets what`s in the pre-nup.
If there is not a pre-nuptial agreement, we`re in a community property state, California. You put all of the assets in a pile. You divide it in half. Conduct is irrelevant.
BEHAR: Really?
KLIEMAN: Doesn`t matter what he may have done. It won`t matter.
BEHAR: Oh, that`s interesting.
KLIEMAN: It`s California.
BEHAR: It`s California. Yes. But if they had a pre-nup, she has a chance of getting more. If she had in the pre-nup I want three-quarters of his amount and not half, right?
KLIEMAN: The pre-nup would control. But, but, when you ever sue for divorce, even though that`s the law, it`s a community property state, the parties have a right to enter into an agreement to avoid protracted litigation.
BEHAR: I see. Ok. Jerry, what can you tell us about the California attorney general`s inquiry into Arnold? What do you know about that?
PENACOLI: Essentially -- and of course Arnold has denied all of this -- essentially, his security personnel were allegedly helping him escort these women, various women into the Sacramento Hyatt, where Arnold and Maria would stay, of course when he was, you know, California governor. And that`s against the law. And Arnold`s office vehemently denying these charges.
BEHAR: Are you saying that these --
PENACOLI: Sorry?
BEHAR: The CHIPs guys, right? We`re talking about those guys?
PENACOLI: The California Highway Patrol. And a lot of his security detail, yes.
BEHAR: So they escorted these girls into the house and then waited two hours or so and then escorted them out?
KLIEMAN: Well, the allegation is --
PENACOLI: Into the hotel. And then waited and then -- yes.
BEHAR: Right. Not the house.
PENACOLI: And basically, Arnold, according to the sources who are revealing the story, Arnold bullied the people at the hotel into keeping quiet.
BEHAR: Ok. Tell me about -- we only have a little time. Finish this up. What does this all mean? Is he going to jail?
KLIEMAN: No.
BEHAR: He`s not.
KLIEMAN: No. And first of all, we have no idea if the allegations are true. I mean, this is what we call checkbook journalism. So we have to see the whistleblower is someone who was paid for his story.
But what we really have to see is did he misuse campaign finances?
BEHAR: Right.
KLIEMAN: If he did, as a result of the criminal investigation, if that`s found, I still don`t expect him to go to jail.
BEHAR: No.
KLIEMAN: No.
BEHAR: Ok.
Well, another bargain. John Edwards is going to be indicted next week. And we`ll be covering some of that. I mean, he`s allegedly used campaign funds for his affair with Rielle Hunter.
KLIEMAN: Yes. But he -- if he used them the way they say he did, he used them in quite an amazing way, $700,000 --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I know.
KLIEMAN: -- passing from person to person.
BEHAR: Really. Interesting. But unfortunately sad stories. Ok.
Thanks, everybody, very much. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: The Casey Anthony murder trial continued today. During the testimony one of Casey`s ex-boyfriends revealed Casey told him a secret while they were dating.
Here now with more are: Diane Dimond, special correspondent for the "Daily Beast" and "Newsweek," who was in the courtroom today; Rikki Klieman, defense attorney and former prosecutor; plus Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst.
Diane, what`s the secret? What`s the secret?
DIANE DIMOND, SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT, "THE DAILY BEAST NEWSWEEK": Well, the secret we learned very late today, last thing today in court, Tony Lazzaro, the former boyfriend, comes back in, the jury is not there and he reveals that at some point in time, we don`t quite know when, Casey Anthony told him -- are you ready?
BEHAR: Yes.
DIMOND: Her father hit him -- her father hit her. That`s it.
(CROSSTALK)
KLIEMAN: Yes. That -- that`s about it?
BEHAR: What about the brother? What about the brother? There was some other -- I heard something else, that the brother did something.
DIMOND: Yes. Well, see, in the opening statements, Joy, the defense said Casey Anthony was a victim of child molestation by her father and touching by her brother.
BEHAR: Right.
DIMOND: And so they think that Casey -- Casey`s probably told them, I told Tony Lazzaro all about it. So once they -- he`s cleared the hurdle now to come back tomorrow with the jury and be questioned fully.
So we didn`t get the whole story out of him today, except we did hear that Casey told him father hit her and he took that to mean like as a disciplinary thing, not like, you know, a sock to the jaw but just as discipline.
BEHAR: Ok. Comments? Anything?
KLIEMAN: Well, number one is the defense is probably better off at this point having it just look like Casey told me a secret and then what did she tell you? Objection. So now of course the jury thinks that the secret was that she was molested.
The reason, Joy, that they can`t ask him ordinarily what Casey told him is because we call that hearsay.
BEHAR: Right.
KLIEMAN: Statement out of court offered for the truth of the matter. And the only person who can tell us is Casey. So it would be interesting to hear what Diane says, why they`re going to let him testify tomorrow. Unless, of course, I think the prosecution now wants it.
BEHAR: Ok well you know -- yes.
(CROSSTALK)
DIMOND: Well, yes, he was a prosecution witness. So --
BEHAR: He was a prosecution witness.
KLIEMAN: Right. But the question of what did she tell you, you know, now becomes not the story of the defense. So it impeaches her. It`s very interesting. It`s inside-out.
BEHAR: I see. Ok now, there was a lot of tension between Casey`s father and Casey`s attorney today. George Anthony seemed very agitated. Let`s watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I`m not trying to be argumentative, sir, but you`re -- you`re throwing stuff all over the place there.
You`re trying to confuse me here. It`s -- yes, you are, sir.
No, sir, you`re -- you are badgering me. You`re trying to get me upset, sir.
You`re going off in a way to get me more upset, and I don`t think that`s fair. I`m just asking you, treat me with a little bit of respect and you`ll get respect back. That`s all I`m asking.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ok. Diane, what do you think this is about?
KLIEMAN: Yes.
DIMOND: It`s about a macho clash in the courtroom. Baez starts it. Baez picks and, you know, nitpicks at every single thing. And -- and --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: The defense attorney.
DIMOND: -- Anthony did start to lose his cool a little bit. Yes.
BEHAR: Baez is the defense attorney. Yes.
DIMOND: Right. And he`s a scrappy little guy. He wants to object to everything and he wants to hammer home on questions.
Now, to be crystal clear with you, Mr. Anthony, you know, things like that. And so finally, George Anthony had had enough, and you hear what he said. And he was absolutely right. It did not do Jose Baez any good for his client, Casey Anthony, to act like that in front of the jury.
BEHAR: I see. And he`s not popular with the jury, this guy at all.
KLIEMAN: Who knows? It may -- it may just be too early. But the reality is that it`s very, very important for Casey Anthony`s parents, both of them, to maintain their cool on the witness stand. And the defense lawyer wants to get under their skin --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
KLIEMAN: -- and make them burst, so that`s especially George.
BEHAR: Ok. Now, Bethany, Casey`s mother Cindy, will likely take the stand soon. And there is this allegation in the air that she was sexually abused -- the girl was sexually abused by her father. How might the mother handle the question of whether her husband abused her daughter, do you think? How will the mother --
BETHANY MARSHALL, MARRIAGE AND FAMILY THERAPIST: She is -- she is going to be very protective towards George. And I will tell you why. Women who are married to men who sexually abuse their children have a certain profile. They`re very passive. They`re super conforming. They prefer their husband to their children. They`re super devaluing and deprecating towards their children because usually they know that it`s been going on for a long, long time.
Cindy Anthony does not fit that profile. She`s aggressive. She`s assertive. She wants to protect her cubs. And you know what? She could beat up George Anthony with one arm tied behind her back. So she`s not the kind of woman who is going to totally throw her child under the bus to hold on to the love of her husband.
BEHAR: Oh, that`s very interesting point.
DIMOND: And you know what, Joy.
BEHAR: Yes.
DIMOND: I watch them in court every day and they -- they`re never far apart. Cindy is holding on to his arm. The first day she came with one of Caylee`s teddy bears under her arm. Ever since then she`s carried a Bible.
They`re inseparable, these two. She strokes his back. She pats him. I mean he -- he really has been through the grill not once but twice on the stand already. And she`s right there with him.
MARSHALL: And do you know what that tells me?
BEHAR: Go ahead. Really fast Bethany.
MARSHALL: That tells me George and Cindy Anthony know how to protect their children. They`re there, and they show up. That is not the profile of adults who abuse their children or sexually molest them.
BEHAR: Ok. That`s interesting stuff. We`re going to have a little bit more on this in just a minute. Don`t go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
I`m back discussing the latest in the Casey Anthony murder trial.
Ok. Now, Rikki, we have this exclusive video of Cindy Anthony and Caylee at Caylee`s second birthday party, the little girl. And Cindy was very close to Caylee. If you`re watching this, they look as though they`re very close. Grandma and the child.
Bethany, it seems like Cindy almost took over the maternal role for the child. Do you think that this upset -- do you think Casey was jealous in any way? Or what do you think about that?
MARSHALL: I think that could be. Because Casey wanted her parents` love and resources all for herself. And also, mothers who kill their children have what we call a paranoid attachment system. The mom loves the child, but it alternates between love and hate. They feel that they own the child, possess the child, and in a paranoid way they feel that the child`s presence here on this earth is hurting them. The child belongs to them and no one else.
And that`s why we have the heart-shaped stickie on the little girl`s mouth. It`s like a clerk in a store when they wrap a package; they put that sticker on it that says this belongs to our store. She`s saying you belong to me. Not my mother, Cindy. No one else. You belong to me, even in death.
BEHAR: Wow. And Cindy, the mother, is very -- she`s the one who made the 911 call and was wondering where the child was. Diane, right? So she`s attached to the kid.
DIMOND: You know, Cindy is the one who wears the pants in this family. She`s the one after 31 days who called the police.
We heard -- we`ve heard 16 different 20-somethings witnesses come up today. They`re like 20-year-old kids who hung out with Casey. And they said she was also happy and carefree until her mother called. And her mother called a lot. And one man, who said yes, she brought Caylee over to my house and then they spent the night. In the middle of the night Casey gets a call from Cindy saying, you bring that child home. And by gosh, she did it.
So Cindy --
BEHAR: Yes, go ahead. I`m sorry.
DIMOND: Cindy is the glue. Cindy is the glue, you`re right.
BEHAR: What about those 31 days? What was going on in those 31 days with this family?
DIMOND: But you know what? Every single time Cindy called and said where is my grandchild, I want to see her, there was another lie. We`re in Tampa. We`re over here. We`re in Jacksonville. We`re in Gainesville. She had all these places where she allegedly was. She was really at Tony Lazzaro`s house. And Caylee was already dead.
That`s the bottom line.
BEHAR: Ok.
MARSHALL: Joy, if I can.
BEHAR: Yes.
MARSHALL: Cindy and Caylee had something in common. They were interfering with Casey`s wish to have an idealized life of buying whatever she wanted, having sex with whoever she wanted, taking other people`s money. And this is why she -- Casey resented Cindy`s attention toward her little girl, is that her mother had money. She wanted her mother to support her so she could loaf around. But if all those resources went toward her little girl, they wouldn`t go to her anymore.
BEHAR: But Bethany --
MARSHALL: And that`s why --
BEHAR: Do you think that this girl is a psychopath? Is that what you`re driving at here? Because who kills their children? Something`s wrong with the girl. It`s not just run-of-the-mill neurotic here. What is your diagnosis, before I go? Of Casey.
MARSHALL: I think -- I think she`s anti-social with borderline features. Because remember, personality disorders love and hate, cling and reject. And that`s why we have those pictures of her adoring the little girl, but we know she could also slice and dice her. That`s the hallmark of a personality disorder.
BEHAR: Ok. With that we`ll end this segment. Thank you guys very much. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: The great actor Malcolm McDowell`s career spans six decades and includes over 130 films. But it was his turn as a show-tune-whistling psychopath in "A Clockwork Orange," one of the most controversial movies of all time, that people still talk about. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MALCOLM MCDOWELL, ACTOR: Stop it! Stop, it please, I beg you!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That`s how I feel watching Fox News.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: The 40th anniversary Blu-ray of "A Clockwork Orange" is out May 31st. There it is. And Malcolm McDowell is here with me now. Welcome to the show, Malcolm.
MCDOWELL: Thanks, Joy. Thank you.
BEHAR: It was banned in Britain for years, that movie. It`s such a feel-good movie. Why would they ban?
(LAUGHTER)
MCDOWELL: It wasn`t banned. It was withdrawn by Kubrick because --
BEHAR: The director.
MCDOWELL: Yes. There were death threats toward him and his family. And he talked to Scotland Yard. His wife told me this, actually. And they advised him to withdraw the film while this was, you know, current.
BEHAR: Really?
MCDOWELL: But Stanley just withdrew it for all time. And they only released it again when he passed on.
BEHAR: Ooh, wow.
MCDOWELL: Yes. But it was nothing to do with, you know -- I mean, the thing was that it had played for a year in the West End. It wasn`t like it was an economic hardship. You know, I mean, it had played its -- it had done its time, as it were.
BEHAR: Yes, yes. But didn`t you get death threats for something on "Star Trek" because you killed off Captain Kirk?
MCDOWELL: Yes.
BEHAR: What is this with the death threats? People, get a life.
MCDOWELL: Hey, listen. It`s the Internet. You know, anybody can make any threat, you know, you get on the Internet. But you know, I would have thought they should have been thrilled that I got rid of him. You know.
(LAUGHTER)
MCDOWELL: I thought they were going to give me a medal or something.
BEHAR: Yes, because he can then do those Priceline commercials.
MCDOWELL: Well, no, he went on to do "Boston Legal" and he was wonderful in that.
BEHAR: He`s very funny.
MCDOWELL: Oh, he`s very funny, yes, he is.
BEHAR: Now, you have said that "A Clockwork Orange" predicted a lot of today`s society. From -- unless I`m misquoting you. From violence to drugs to "American Idol." "American Idol" I can see.
MCDOWELL: "American Idol?"
BEHAR: How do you mean that? What do you mean?
MCDOWELL: I don`t think I said that, but I`ll answer it anyway.
BEHAR: OK, answer it.
MCDOWELL: I`ll take it. Well, you know, look, there have been gangs for what, since the Greeks. I mean, what`s "West Side Story?" It`s about gangs in New York.
BEHAR: Really? I don`t picture Plato and Aristotle in a gang.
MCDOWELL: You don`t? Hey. There was a lot of gay gangs in that day. Yes, exactly. There was a lot of gay gangs. Anyway, but you know, the Romans had gangs. You know, this -- and of course, you know, "A Clockwork Orange" said it with drugs that would put -- spiking milk in the old Korova milk bar and stuff. Of course when it first came out, there was this hoopla about the violence. But it really isn`t that violent.
BEHAR: No. It`s kind of a satire, isn`t it?
MCDOWELL: Exactly. It`s a satire. You know, it`s like can you not take a joke? I mean, all right. He rapes a woman, you know, to "Singin` in the Rain." But come on. Isn`t that funny?
BEHAR: Well, because you have to -- you have to take the satirical leap for that.
MCDOWELL: Thank you. Yes.
BEHAR: And a lot of people are too concrete-minded and they can`t do that.
MCDOWELL: No. But the thing is that`s -- you know, that was sort of an improv that just came out and bang, I went straight into "Singin` in the Rain." And a year later when I went to Hollywood, and one of the minders said, would you like to go to a party that -- there`s a lot of Hollywood stars. I said oh, yes, please, I`d love to meet some of these stars. And I go and they go, hey, Malcolm, Gene Kelly`s here. I went, oh, I`d love to meet him. I would be thrilled. And he had his back to me. The guy tapped him on the back. He goes, "Gene, I`d like you to meet Malcolm McDowell." He looks around, he looked at me, and he just turned and --
BEHAR: Whoa.
MCDOWELL: And the guy said, look, I started to apologize. I said, please, don`t apologize. I took his moment and completely wrecked it for him.
BEHAR: Oh, boy. No sense of humor.
MCDOWELL: Well, no.
BEHAR: I mean --
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: I mean, I have to say, if it`s just a plain rape, it`s a horror. But when you put the "Singin` in the Rain" to it, you know that it`s a send-up of something.
MCDOWELL: Of course. And the actress, you know, she was so great. You know, Adrian Corre (ph), she was--
BEHAR: A lot of nudity.
MCDOWELL: Well, yes. You have a rape, you`ve got to have a bit of nudity. I mean, she said to me when she came on, I hadn`t met her before, and she just looked at me, and she was a real game actress. She just said, you`re going to find out in a minute that I`m a real redhead.
BEHAR: Oh. Hello. Whoa.
MCDOWELL: And she was. She was as good as her word.
BEHAR: It`s good when the collar and the cuffs match, isn`t it?
MCDOWELL: Oh, thank God. Because we had another problem with another one where they didn`t. And Kubrick goes, could you -- so she just -- and he goes, I thought you were a blond. So they got this cockney hairdresser. It`s all right, Stanley, I can fix that. And she`s got one of these -- it`s aerosol. I can fix it. So here, it comes out green. Green. Here`s another one. Oh, my God, now it`s pink. We had certain color problems on that film.
BEHAR: Yes. Now --
MCDOWELL: What are we talking about?
BEHAR: I don`t know.
(LAUGHTER)
MCDOWELL: Pubic hair?
BEHAR: This show, you just talk about whatever you want. Now, another thing that was interesting, you worked with so many great British actors. I`m a very big Anglophile, and I love Masterpiece Theater. I love British mysteries. I am on your list of fans because -- and I also love Helen Mirren, who you did "Caligula" with. And Peter O`Toole. And you played Laurence Olivier`s lover in movie "The Collection."
MCDOWELL: Yes. Well, when you say lover, it sounds like it`s some sort of sex piece. It wasn`t that at all. It`s very in the closet.
BEHAR: Oh, it`s about two guys in the closet.
MCDOWELL: No. No. He was in the closet.
BEHAR: Oh.
MCDOWELL: And I was just really -- I would sleep with anything that moved, basically. He was an opportunist. But when we first -- the whole point is you don`t know that he`s gay. And Olivier at the read-through literally came swinging a handbag in high heels. And Alan Bates, who was the other great actor, and I were sort of -- you know. And he went on like this for a week. We kept saying to the director, Michael Apted, are you going to tell Sir? And eventually --
BEHAR: Sir Olivier, you mean?
MCDOWELL: Yes, sir, of course. There`s only one sir. You know. And we were looking through -- it had like restaurant doors in this rehearsal room. And we just saw the back of Olivier`s ears sticking out. And the director whispering in his ear. And suddenly he said, "of course, dear boy. I start big and bring it in!" So, thank God.
BEHAR: I love that. But there were rumors that--
MCDOWELL: He was great, though.
BEHAR: There were rumors that Olivier was playing for the other team.
MCDOWELL: Joy, I`m not going there.
BEHAR: OK, because he--
MCDOWELL: Of course there were rumors.
BEHAR: More than rumors. Because -- listen to the dish that I have on that.
MCDOWELL: Give it to me, baby.
BEHAR: The dish that I heard was that he would meet with Danny Kaye - -
MCDOWELL: Oh, you`ve heard that one.
BEHAR: Is it true?
MCDOWELL: Of course. Rubber gloves, baby. Straight in. Yeah. Whoo. Hey. Is this where the crown jewels are kept? Whoa.
BEHAR: But is it true, Malcolm?
MCDOWELL: Yes, it is true.
BEHAR: It is true?
MCDOWELL: I believe it`s true.
BEHAR: Oh, boy.
MCDOWELL: Yes. And let`s -- we`ll have to fill that out for the viewers, because Danny Kaye was -- they were best of friends. Very, very - -
BEHAR: I have to take a break.
MCDOWELL: Oh, do it.
BEHAR: I want you to finish the story when we come back.
MCDOWELL: We`ll have some --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I wouldn`t want to miss any more of this. OK.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with the very entertaining Malcolm McDowell. OK, so Danny Kaye and Laurence Oliver were having an affair.
MCDOWELL: Whoa, whoa, whoa--
BEHAR: Allegedly.
MCDOWELL: Let`s just not go there quite so fast.
BEHAR: I jumped the gun, I got excited.
MCDOWELL: No, I mean, listen, the thing was that Danny Kaye was coming to London to work with Olivier, who is directing this movie. And so Olivier, who had a real love of putting on putty noses and characters, you know, everything was sort of externalized with him in his characters.
BEHAR: Yes.
MCDOWELL: So he goes to the airport. This is before any security stuff and all that. And he borrows a customs uniform. They had uniforms in those days. And when Danny Kaye comes in, he says, excuse me, sir. Sir? Sir? Please? And Danny Kaye, goes, what? Me? Are you sure, me? He goes, yes, if you wouldn`t mind, sir, please come to the back room. I`d like to -- sorry, sir, but we`ve got to do a body search. And I`m very sorry to say this, sir, but that would include a cavity search. He goes, how dare you? I want to see the American ambassador. I want to make a phone call. No, sorry, sir, you`ll be in the clink if you start all that.
He bends him over, right? He gets the glove. Got the glove on. He`s about to penetrate him with a cavity search. And he whispered in his ear, and he goes, "Danny, welcome to London."
He goes, oh, you son of a --
(LAUGHTER)
MCDOWELL: Isn`t that great?
BEHAR: Wow. He was a practical joker, Sir Olivier.
MCDOWELL: Oh, yes. But listen, after we were doing this, we were rehearsing this play. So Alan Bates, myself, and Olivier, we go into the pub for lunch, just a quick lunch. We`re sitting in the little snug and a cockney guy comes in, and he goes, oh -- what? Hey, go on. This is the old clockwork banana, isn`t it? Oh, come on, here, here, sign, this, come on.
Oh, wait a minute. Tom Jones, isn`t it? Alan Bates. Of course it was Albert Finney. Oh come on, you`re joking. One of my favorites! So there`s this sort of impasse. And I said, well, surely you want the autograph of the greatest living actor. And he goes, oh, yes, who`s that? And I say, well, this is Sir Laurence Olivier. He goes, what, him? This old geezer? Get out of here! Nah. And he`s off. And Olivier was like seething. Alan Bates grabbed a hold of me and said, oh, my God, we`re going to pay for this this afternoon. I said, I`m not, I don`t have a scene with him, you do.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: That`s funny. Oh, my God. OK. Now, you also were in the infamous and semi-pornographic "Caligula."
MCDOWELL: What do you mean semi?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: OK. Let`s go for it.
MCDOWELL: Darling, it was right there.
BEHAR: With Ms. Helen -- Dame Helen Mirren.
MCDOWELL: Yes. Dame Helen, showing her all.
BEHAR: Yes. And Caligula slept with his sister, right?
MCDOWELL: Oh, yes. Amongst the horses and all the rest of it.
BEHAR: Yes, he was really--
MCDOWELL: I mean, he put it to everybody. He was quite a democrat in that way.
(LAUGHTER)
MCDOWELL: OK. Let`s not get there. This is CNN that`s wafting through me.
BEHAR: But you had a couple of naked scenes with Helen. And she was quite a hot ticket in those days.
MCDOWELL: Helen was -- and still is. Gorgeous. Gorgeous.
BEHAR: She still is. Did you have fun with her? Did you have an affair with her or anything?
MCDOWELL: Joy, I`m here to tell you that of course not.
BEHAR: Oh, you did not?
MCDOWELL: No. No, I`d like to have said, oh, yes, we had a great time. Actually, she was a mate, and I loved her. We did three things. "Oh Lucky Man," the collection with Olivier. And "Caligula." And it`s amazing that she`s had such a sparkling sort of mid-career on, which is so unusual for a woman and so inspiring to other actresses, because here she`s always been a great actress, but you know, to suddenly, you know, get this great part --
BEHAR: But I think the British -- the Brits have a lot of older actresses who are still working. Maggie Smith, for one. Eileen Atkins.
MCDOWELL: Oh, yes. Yes, great, great actresses.
BEHAR: A lot of them work on Masterpiece Theater and the mystery series and all that.
MCDOWELL: Well, they`ve got such a good theater, you know, the West End and the National and the Royal Shakespeare Company, that can keep them employed, thank goodness.
BEHAR: You weren`t invited to the royal wedding, I take it.
MCDOWELL: Oh, yes.
BEHAR: You were?
MCDOWELL: It was fabulous.
BEHAR: You went?
MCDOWELL: I was right behind David Beckham and next to the woman with the funny hat that got all the signals --
BEHAR: You mean the queen?
MCDOWELL: Oh, yes, that`s who it was. Which queen are we talking about?
BEHAR: I don`t know. There are so many in Britain.
MCDOWELL: No, no. As if I`d be invited to the wedding.
BEHAR: You weren`t invited.
MCDOWELL: Of course not.
BEHAR: You`re pulling my leg.
MCDOWELL: Yes.
BEHAR: Why wouldn`t you be invited? You`re a big star. A big actor, British actor.
MCDOWELL: I think I`m a little bit too on the edge for the royals.
BEHAR: Too much porn.
MCDOWELL: No, not too much porn. In fact, they probably -- that would be a reason to invite.
(LAUGHTER)
MCDOWELL: Actually, that`s a funny story. That I had dinner with Princess Margaret, who is the -- of course was the sister of the queen.
BEHAR: Yes.
MCDOWELL: She was sitting next to me, and she was smoking in between, I mean, courses. And then she turned to me and went, my husband tells me you did a film about rape. What`s the matter, Joy? Are you all right?
BEHAR: I`m laughing at you. You`re just hilarious.
MCDOWELL: And I was like -- so uncomfortable because I had to call her, you know, your royal highness. I mean, you know, and I`m really rather Republican for all that. So I said, yes, ma`am, I did a film about rape and other things. And at that moment Gore Vidal, who`d brought me along and who was a friend of hers, leaned in and said, "she wants you to go home with her." And I said, Gore, not even for England.
(LAUGHTER)
MCDOWELL: You can`t get past those thighs, darling. You can`t. You can`t.
BEHAR: Margaret. She was a hefty girl. Oh, yes, really? I heard she was quite the beotch. You know what I`m saying?
MCDOWELL: Oh, yes.
BEHAR: Yes. That she was not a nice girl. Maybe she was bitter because they didn`t allow her to marry the guy she was in love with. Remember?
MCDOWELL: That`s probably true. And it`s ridiculous, actually. I just hope that these kids make it. You know, I hope they don`t treat Kate like they treated Diana. You know, which was just pathetic.
BEHAR: Yes. That was sad. We had a show about the royal wedding here. And I do jokes about the royal family because --
MCDOWELL: Good.
BEHAR: -- I have no respect for them. I don`t care. I`m American.
MCDOWELL: They`re not going to make you a dame, are they?
BEHAR: No. Exactly.
MCDOWELL: You are a dame.
BEHAR: I`m a dame, but not a dame.
MCDOWELL: In New York -- no, you`re a dame.
BEHAR: And so I got all this criticism from "The Telegraph", the newspaper there, that how dare I call the queen looking like a bumblebee on alcohol, or whatever I said about her.
(LAUGHTER)
MCDOWELL: Well, actually --
BEHAR: An alcoholic bumblebee.
MCDOWELL: You said that?
BEHAR: Yes, I did. And they were mad at me for that.
MCDOWELL: Well, hey. You should just say get yourself a life and a sense of humor.
BEHAR: Exactly.
MCDOWELL: I mean, look, she`s up there. You know, she`s worth gazillions of dollars. It must be a very pleasant life. On one side. And of course the other side is it`s a goldfish bowl and it`s horrible. Who`d want that?
BEHAR: Well, Kate Middleton wanted it. She walked right in --
MCDOWELL: She wants it, apparently. She wants it. But she loves -- she loves Andrew -- I mean William.
BEHAR: How can you tell?
MCDOWELL: Well, because you can tell.
BEHAR: What`s his name? William.
MCDOWELL: I don`t know. William. Whatever. They`re all the same to me. Charles.
BEHAR: You`re such a devoted British subject.
MCDOWELL: Henry, whatever -- yes.
BEHAR: And now I find out that you are a new father. I think that`s so interesting.
MCDOWELL: Yes.
BEHAR: This is your first family?
MCDOWELL: No. No. I`ve got several families, Joy.
BEHAR: Tell me.
MCDOWELL: Why do you think I`m working? You know, I`m just out there, keeping the balls in the air.
BEHAR: You have three young ones now, right?
MCDOWELL: I have three young boys, yes. Two, Seamus, Finn 4, Beckett 7. And my older kids Lily and Charlie. So I`ve got five kids. That`s it. That`s it.
BEHAR: Five kids. How many wives have you had?
MCDOWELL: Just three.
BEHAR: Just three. Oh. All right. You enjoy the new family and the whole thing? It`s wonderful.
MCDOWELL: Yes. It`s an interesting household at the moment. Very quite noisy.
BEHAR: OK. You know what? We have one more segment with you.
MCDOWELL: You do? OK. Great.
BEHAR: Yes.
MCDOWELL: We`ll burn it up.
BEHAR: We`ll burn it up. OK. We`ll be back with a little more from Malcolm McDowell.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I am back with actor Malcolm McDowell. OK, now, let`s talk a little bit -- your father they say was an alcoholic who owned a pub. That seems to be --
MCDOWELL: It`s dangerous.
BEHAR: It`s very dangerous.
MCDOWELL: An oxymoron. What were you going to say? No, it`s not. It goes hand in hand with the territory. You know, it`s good night, everyone.
BEHAR: And then you started to indulge a bit.
MCDOWELL: Yes, I did.
BEHAR: Had a bad spell there.
MCDOWELL: Yes, I had a few cocaine years. But that was quite a while ago, and touch wood, 28 years.
BEHAR: You`re out of that now.
MCDOWELL: Out of that now.
BEHAR: A lot of people come on this show and say they`ve been there and they`ve stopped it.
MCDOWELL: I think in the `80s, it was hard not to --
BEHAR: And the `70s.
MCDOWELL: Well, and the `60 and the `50s.
BEHAR: The `50s was martinis.
MCDOWELL: Yes, but still, I think cocaine was around in the `20s, wasn`t it?
BEHAR: Oh, yes.
MCDOWELL: Big time.
BEHAR: OK. We have a Facebook question.
MCDOWELL: Yes, OK, what`s that?
BEHAR: Someone wrote in and said, if you could be a woman for a day who would you be and what would you do?
MCDOWELL: Margaret Thatcher without a shadow of a doubt.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: And why is that?
MCDOWELL: Because she had more balls than any politician I`d ever seen. I mean, I didn`t agree with what she was doing, but I saw her and it made me roll with laughter, on a live political broadcast show in England on Sunday morning. And this questioner was trying to get her to answer this question, and he asked her five times, she said "I`ve told you the answer." And he kept -- so he tried coming around this way, around this way. In the end, she just got her handbag and went whack, hit him like this and said, "I`ve answered the question, move on!" I mean, it`s priceless.
BEHAR: I love that.
MCDOWELL: I do too.
BEHAR: She`s ill now. Doesn`t she have Alzheimer`s or something?
MCDOWELL: Yes, I think so. But you know, she was -- there was a lot of -- I think she was magnificent in many ways.
BEHAR: Was she in love with Ronald Reagan? I always felt like she had a crush on Ronald Reagan.
MCDOWELL: She may well have done, but Ronnie was --
BEHAR: He was quite fabulous.
MCDOWELL: He was a movie star. Come on, who wouldn`t have a crush on him.
BEHAR: That`s true.
MCDOWELL: And he was funny. He had a great sense of humor.
BEHAR: OK, one more question. What is why are favorite movie and favorite actor of all time?
MCDOWELL: James Cagney, hands down. Great. The greatest.
BEHAR: Really? What did you like about him?
MCDOWELL: His energy. Just a force -- he was like a force of energy. When he came on the screen, whoever he was with, you never took your eyes off him.
BEHAR: And your favorite British actor?
MCDOWELL: Albert Finney.
BEHAR: Albert Finney is mine, too, besides you. Of course.
MCDOWELL: No, that`s all right, you can --
BEHAR: I love Albert Finney.
MCDOWELL: I love him too.
(CROSSTALK)
MCDOWELL: He made it possible for the likes of me, my generation, which is one under him, to actually leave the provinces and go to London and make it. He made it, he was one of the first to do that.
BEHAR: Oh, he is so hot. He used to be. Like you. In "Clockwork Orange," which is celebrating its 40th anniversary. This edition is out right now. Well, not right now. May 31st. So--
MCDOWELL: That`s right now.
BEHAR: On Blu-ray. And go get it, it`s wonderful.
And we love you so much for doing it.
MCDOWELL: Thanks, Joy.
BEHAR: You`re just adorable. Isn`t he the best?
(APPLAUSE)
Thank you all for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
