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Joy Behar Page
Casey Anthony Murder Trial; Dumbing Down of Culture?
Aired June 01, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Casey Anthony`s defense seems to be building their case around Casey`s compulsive lying. Is that really a good strategy? Former O.J. prosecutor Marcia Clark weighs in.
Then are stars like Lindsay Lohan and Snooki making our girls dumber? That`s what a new book suggests. Joy will speak to the outspoken author.
Plus Sarah Palin`s secret tour bus stopped in New York and the former governor had a pizza party with the Donald. Joy has a simple question. Why?
That and more, starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: Lee Anthony, the brother of accused murderer Casey Anthony, took the stand today as well as a group of police officers who arrived at the Anthony home after Casey`s mother called 911.
Here now with more on what went down in court today are Marcia Clark, prosecutor in the O.J. Simpson trial -- remember that -- and author of "Guilt by Association"; Ashley Banfield, ABC News correspondent, who was in the courtroom today; and Casey Jordan, attorney, criminologist and contributor for "In Session" on TruTV. Ok. Welcome ladies to the show.
Ashleigh, before we get to Casey`s brother, I heard there was a stampede this morning for seats in the courtroom. What happened?
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CORRESPONDENT, ABC NEWS: Yes, it`s been a little bit weird, I have to say. In all of my 23 years of covering trials, I have not seen this before. About 50 people every day are allowed in to take the public seats. They start lining up sometimes the day before.
BEHAR: Look at this. My goodness.
BANFIELD: And this morning, they charged as soon as the court operators told them to move, they charged to get a first position in line so they could get the best seats. And a cameraman I think at one point felt like he was going to be pulled over. There was a wheelchair at one point, I think a man tripped, and there was yelling and screaming. It was really -- it almost looked like a rock concert.
BEHAR: Yes, or the day before Thanksgiving -- when everybody`s -- Black Friday or whatever.
BANFIELD: Or the wedding dresses. Right.
BEHAR: Oh, my God, for a situation like this is weird. Ok.
Casey`s brother Lee was on the stand this morning. He talked about his conversation with Casey after Cindy, the mother, called 911 but before the police came. Let`s watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY, BROTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: I -- it`s more or less like a role play sort of thing. I said, police officer`s going to show up and he`s going to say, you know, hey, Mrs. Anthony, or Miss Anthony, how are you doing, where`s your daughter? She`s with the nanny. Awesome, that`s great to hear. Hop in the car, we`re going to go get her, your mom`s going to follow.
And I said, what are you going to do? And she just looked at me with really no reaction.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That`s a weird response, the laughing like that, too. Isn`t it? But Marcia, she then told him, Caylee was missing. Do you think Lee`s -- this guy`s testimony helped or hurt Casey?
MARCIA CLARK, AUTHOR, "GUILT BY ASSOCIATION": Oh, it hurt her. It hurt her, unquestionably, Joy. It was a terrible moment for her. As far as the defense goes, that had to be one of their worst days because it shows that she lied about what was going on for a month while her daughter was missing. She was out playing, wet t-shirt concerts, partying, and only when it was threatened that the cops were going to come and not threatened, but promised they were going to come, did she finally admit that Casey (SIC) was missing. That just looks, it couldn`t look any worse.
BEHAR: It looks bad, doesn`t it, Casey?
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: It does.
BEHAR: And why didn`t they ask Lee about the sexual abuse allegation that she made against him and the father?
JORDAN: That`s a great question. Now, I think that the number one reason they didn`t is because you know when people ask you stuff that`s outrageous, you go I`m not going to dignify that with a response.
Remember, the allegations made against George, her father, were graphically spelled out --
BEHAR: Yes.
JORDAN: -- in opening statement. But then there was this vague, specific, Lee attempted to follow in his father`s footsteps but it didn`t go so far. Well, what does that mean? I think that they didn`t go there because there was nothing specific for him to even refute. And I think that it may come up later --
ASHFIELD: Don`t forget that the jury hasn`t heard this. This is something we all got to hear in a proffered testimony but the jury did not get to hear about the allegation of sexual abuse from Lee. So they don`t know anything about it.
BEHAR: Casey is saying they heard it in the opening statement.
ASHFIELD: Yes, but that`s not evidence. That is not fact, that`s not evidence, it`s an opening statement and Jose Baez has to back that up and so far this jury has not had that backed up.
JORDAN: I totally agree with Ashleigh.
CLARK: Well, they haven`t but that`s true, it`s a promise that`s been made without evidence to back it up, but if -- and I think it was smart that the prosecution didn`t try to follow it up. If Jose Baez doesn`t have the evidence to make sure that the jury understands there`s evidence to back it up, there`s no reason to, and I think the prosecution in order to be consistent and credible when they say this is not relevant, it doesn`t matter whatever happened with her brother, they have to really leave the subject alone and I think they were right to do that.
JORDAN: Yes, I absolutely agree with Marcia and I do think that they just didn`t want to dignify it with a response. It wasn`t specific, it was just this little hook-line-sinker thing that got thrown out by Baez in opening statement. If they want to bring it up later, then Lee can respond to it later.
BEHAR: Ok. Marcia, Casey`s ex-best friend Amy was also on the stand today. Defense attorney Baez tried to paint her as a drunk to debunk her testimony which wasn`t very flattering to Casey, again. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAEZ: You were drinking quite heavily during those days, were you not?
AMY HUIZENGA, CASEY ANTHONY`S FORMER BEST FRIEND: I don`t know if I would say heavily. I would go out with friends, but not any more than anyone else my age does.
BAEZ: And anyone else your age would mean almost every night?
HUIZENGA: Don`t think it was almost every night. I`m sure it wasn`t. I couldn`t afford that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: So is that a smart thing for the defense to do, Marcia, to make the friend look like -- discredit the friend?
CLARK: I don`t think so. I think this is one of those things where it`s birds of a feather flock together and if you paint her good friend as being a party girl who`s out almost every night then what does that say about Casey who`s hanging out with her, who`s her best friend?
BEHAR: Right.
CLARK: I mean it tends to paint her with the same brush. I don`t think it was a good idea, no.
BEHAR: Ashleigh a lot of people are saying the defense made a mistake yesterday. What was the mistake?
BANFIELD: Well, it really depends on how you look at it. There`s the whole idea of opening a door. And with some of the questions that Jose Baez has been posing, it`s suggesting that his client is a habitual liar. So he`s opened the door for the prosecution to bring in other kinds of things to show her character.
Well, those other kinds of things are six felonies. So far that was not going to make it into this trial. It`s not evidence of a murder if you have some felonies but if you open the door, that stuff can sometimes get in. So far we do not know that that`s going to happen. Doesn`t look like it, but it`s still on the table.
BEHAR: Marcia, do you think this guy Jose Baez is over his head? The defense attorney?
CLARK: Sometimes -- Joy, you know, sometimes I do and then sometimes I think, well, you know, let`s wait and see if he can pull it all together. Right now he`s laying the groundwork for showing she`s awfully unstable. She makes up a lot of stories and she lives in a fantasy world, she may even be delusional.
And if he can pull it together in the defense case when he starts calling his own witnesses, perhaps mental health experts, we may find, that wow, it all makes sense and somehow he pulls it all together.
On the other hand we may wind up thinking that was a scatter shot, shotgun kind of defense that absolutely went nowhere and convinced us of nothing but her guilt. It just may be too soon to tell.
BEHAR: What is his legal experience, Casey, do you know?
JORDAN: Yes. The interesting thing is his Web site tends to be on again, off again. And if you look at his experience it recycles you right back to the home page. He apparently has bragged about winning 32 out of 34 trials when he was an intern at the public defender`s office. Since then I think he has four success stories but nothing on the par of a case of this magnitude with this much --
BEHAR: How did they get stuck with him, then?
JORDAN: Well, they didn`t get stuck, Casey chose him. All the other girls when she was in holding said call Jose Baez, he`s my attorney.
BEHAR: Really.
JORDAN: So he does have plenty of criminal experience --
That`s how she got referred to him, by her colleagues in the holding. But mostly defense attorneys plea everything out so they don`t have that much trial experience like prosecutors do. That does not mean he`s not doing the best he can, but this is what Casey wanted.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: But it sounds like the way he`s been doing it is not very effective for her.
JORDAN: I don`t think he is as accomplished at cross-examination as he could be.
BEHAR: And also strategy.
BANFIELD: Sometimes, also, Joy, don`t forget -- don`t forget sometimes you`ve got to work with what you`ve got. You don`t get to create the facts. You don`t get to create the evidence. You`ve got to work with what your client tells you and sometimes you have to do what your client tells you. In fact all the time you have to do what your client tells you. We don`t know what Casey`s telling him.
BEHAR: Yes. You know, Marcia, I`m curious. How would you compare O.J.`s defense team to Casey`s?
CLARK: I wouldn`t.
BEHAR: No?
CLARK: But it`s a little --
BEHAR: First of all, nobody`s -- nobody`s reciting poetry over there. For one thing.
CLARK: Joy, oh, no. Here we go. Joy, I don`t know. I mean, we could talk about that one for a lot of hours, but here`s one thing.
Legally speaking, a defense attorney gets to call all the shots in the case. The client has really basically two choices that are up to the client completely. That is whether or not to plead guilty, and whether or not to testify. Those are the two instances in which the lawyer cannot dictate.
But otherwise when it comes to which witnesses to call, what testimony to elicit, that`s all up to the defense attorney. It`s his decision, his alone. He`s the final arbiter.
And he does have to work with what he`s got. I mean Ashleigh`s right about that. He`s got an uphill battle here. Let`s face it. This is not a beloved celebrity that people are going to say, wow, she couldn`t possibly have done it. This is a girl who comes off looking like a liar, pathological -- not maybe like pathological, I`m not an expert in this.
BEHAR: No, she`s pathological.
CLARK: -- as Bethany. But she definitely, I mean this is a woman who`s lied about everything that served her own ends. And I don`t think she`s coming across well.
BEHAR: She`s not a good liar. She`s a terrible -- she`s a bad liar also.
BANFIELD: I`m going to beg to differ, I have just listened to the last three hours of her lies --
BEHAR: Tell us.
BANFIELD: -- with unbelievable detail. She goes into middle names, addresses, cross streets, friends and mothers and associates of these imaginary people and somehow she was able to keep them straight for a very long time.
So I will say, I`ll go on the record saying she is a very good liar.
BEHAR: I see.
BANFIELD: It did wind up catching up with her but she kept a lot of these lies straight.
BEHAR: Well, you can have a photographic memory and still be a bad -- and still be a bad liar. In fact, it helps -- doesn`t it, to have a photographic memory if you`re a liar. She might have, you know, maybe that`s it.
But I mean, Ashleigh, you`ve been in court for a while as you said. How is the jury responding to all of this?
BANFIELD: That`s an amazing question because that`s the one you really want to look at. I didn`t see -- first of all, I thought they`d be crying yesterday with Cindy Anthony breaking down and doubling over on the stand.
BEHAR: Yes.
BANFIELD: They weren`t. But it`s because they were looking at their monitors. Her -- her 911 call was transcribed in front of them so they were reading. They weren`t necessarily taking in the ambiance of the courtroom around them.
Today I saw them slumping a lot. At one point I said, two of them were slumping over their knees during a very long sidebar. There were too many sidebars today. It started to get very sluggish and I could tell that they were getting a little lazy and a little tired. But they perk up after every recess and they`re doing a great job.
BEHAR: Ok, thank you very much, everybody.
We`ll have more on the relationship between Casey Anthony and her mother when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`re back talking about the Casey Anthony trial and during the course of the testimony we`ve gotten a quick glimpse into the bizarre dynamics of the Anthony family. Particularly the relationship between Casey and her mother. Watch what Casey`s friend said about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did the defendant tell you anything about her relationship with her mother during this time period?
HUIZENGA: It was strained. It was hard. Her mom was being continually agitated with her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she tell you why her mother was continually agitated with her?
HUIZENGA: I remember there was a time when she told me that her mom had told her that she was an unfit mother. She was extremely upset about that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Here now to discuss are Ashleigh Banfield, ABC News correspondent; Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and a marriage and family therapist; and Casey Jordan, attorney, criminologist and contributor for "In Session".
Bethany, let me start with you. Now, we just heard that Cindy was agitated with Casey, which doesn`t seem so abnormal. A lot of daughters have this with their mothers, but how many mothers say their daughters are unfit mothers.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Right.
BEHAR: That`s -- that`s a little different.
MARSHALL: Them`s fighting words. And what I think about that is that Cindy Anthony had a breakthrough moment. She realized it had crossed the line from Casey being uninterested in Caylee to Casey not wanting Caylee around.
And what I`m wondering if the -- was if the intent to commit homicide had been formed in Casey`s mind and Cindy Anthony was picking up on this and on an unconscious level was calling her out on it and that`s why Casey Anthony was complaining to Amy. She knew that she had been had and caught by her own mother.
BEHAR: A-ha. Very interesting.
So Ashleigh, there was also a testimony of Casey being jealous of Cindy. What do you know about that?
BANFIELD: Well there is -- and I think you`ve got to be so careful about the kinds of things that are picked apart when you`re looking at a case like this. I`ve been jealous of my mom. She looks better than I do and she`s -- I`m not going to say her age. And you know, these are the kinds of things that we have to be very cautious about not blowing them up.
And that`s the other thing when it comes to the statements that she has said about her own daughter, about not being a fit mother. Don`t forget, Amy I think knew Casey for all of five months and for an entire month of it, this child was missing. I can tell you that anybody`s mother would freak out if her daughter would not let her see her grandchild or tell her, her whereabouts for a month.
So sure, I`m sure she was quite crazy during that month. But -- but to assume that that`s their relationship for her lifetime is I think a little bit overreaching.
BEHAR: Well, I don`t know, but do you think -- Bethany, do you think this is about jealousy or some other thing? What do you think about that?
MARSHALL: I -- I think this is much more basic and ugly than jealousy. Because the two motivators towards homicide are jealousy and envy. And I think this was envy. I think Casey Anthony was envious towards her little girl. Envy is when somebody has something that you want and you can`t get it for yourself.
What did Caylee have that Casey wanted? She had George and Cindy Anthony`s love, affection, money, attention. Remember, Casey didn`t want to get a job. She just wanted to loaf around the house all day long, and Cindy and George had shifted their attention from Casey towards this little girl. And that just made Casey angry and envious because she wanted all those resources.
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: I don`t know if Cindy testified, Cindy testified that Caylee was always upset the minute her mother Casey walked out of house. It sounds to me like they did have a good relationship and every other witness who`s been asked has said she was a great mom and they had a special bond.
BEHAR: Well, I don`t know about that, I mean, you know --
BANFIELD: She may have had a great relationship --
MARSHALL: -- I don`t know this woman.
BEHAR: Yes, well, we don`t know her. We`re hypothesizing here about this particular case, which is what we`re doing on this show tonight. So we don`t know.
And Bethany is trying to put the pieces together psychologically -- Beth.
MARSHALL: Well, she may have had a great relationship with her daughter as long as she felt she possessed her, owned her, and if it appealed to a narcissistic ideal of her being a fantastic mother.
But the minute that little girl interfered with getting all those resources from Cindy and George, then the warm turned. Remember, homicide is something that usually occurs within attachment systems because it`s in our most intimate attachments that the feelings get stimulated that can create homicide: resentment, jealousy, envy.
You have something I want and I`m going to take it from you and that`s how I would understand the situation.
BEHAR: Well, something is going on because there`s a dead child here. We`ll have more on this after a short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my panel. We`re talking about Casey Anthony and her family. Ok.
I want to play part of the phone call that Casey made from jail to her mother at home. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: Casey --
CASEY ANTHONY, ACCUSED OF MURDERING HER DAUGHTER: Mom.
CINDY ANTHONY: Hey, sweetie.
CASEY ANTHONY: I just saw your nice little cameo on TV.
CINDY ANTHONY: Which one?
CASEY ANTHONY: What do you mean, which one?
CINDY ANTHONY: Which one?
CASEY ANTHONY: You don`t know what my involvement is and stuff?
CINDY ANTHONY: Casey --
CASEY ANTHONY: Mom.
CINDY ANTHONY: What?
CASEY ANTHONY: No.
CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t know what your involvement is, sweetheart. You`re not telling me where she`s at.
CASEY ANTHONY: Because I don`t (EXPLETIVE DELETED) know where she`s at. Are you kidding me?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Cindy calls her sweetie and sweetheart and yet there`s a hostility in the conversation. Bethany, do you think she`s acting nice to Casey to get information about where Caylee is? What`s going on there?
MARSHALL: You know -- look, Cindy knows that her daughter is a petri dish full of psychopathology ok. And there`s a very thin line between being judicious and being co-dependent and I think Cindy knows that if she destroys the relationship between her daughter, she destroys her tie to her granddaughter. So in my mind she`s being artful.
BEHAR: So she`s still --
JORDAN: Which is the right thing.
BEHAR: She believes the child is somewhere, right?
MARSHALL: Yes.
BEHAR: She still believes the child is alive somewhere. So she`s playing the girl to maybe get it out of her, where is this child, yes?
JORDAN: Oh, absolutely psychologically she needs to believe that Caylee is still alive. And as Bethany points out, she`s co-dependent. I mean her daughter, Casey, is scolding her. She`s acting like a petulant 13-year-old but Cindy is letting her speak to her that way instead of saying, you`re the one in jail.
MARSHALL: I`m not so sure.
BEHAR: What do you think, Bethany?
MARSHALL: I`m not so sure she`s letting her speak that way, in a very co-dependent masochistic way. I think at this point Cindy is going to do anything to have -- to try to find her granddaughter.
Remember, up until six weeks ago, Cindy Anthony thought that there was still a Zanny the nanny. She thought this little girl was alive, so she`s doing anything possible to maneuver her daughter to get information.
Let`s be honest. Casey is a bully with her mom. So her mom has to be very artful in dealing with her.
JORDAN: But she didn`t become a bully during that phone call. She`s obviously been speaking to her mother this way forever. Even George said, you know, she would come over to the house she would say, I only have five minutes and she was bossing around and he would go, here we go again. It`s another George and Casey show.
I mean she has been treating her parents like this for a while. Where does that resentment and where does that anger come from?
BEHAR: Well, that`s a question for the shrink. Where does it come from?
MARSHALL: I can tell you where it comes from.
BEHAR: Go ahead.
MARSHALL: It doesn`t come from being raised in a bad home. Ok? It comes from having anti-social personality disorder, which is reckless disregard and lack of concern for the rights and safety of others; failure to pay back the debts of society; lying, conning, manipulativeness, parasitic behavior, and promiscuity. That is anti-social personality --
BEHAR: And it comes out -- it comes out of nowhere, Bethany. I mean the parents have no --
(CROSSTALK)
MARSHALL: It`s genetic.
BEHAR: It`s genetic.
MARSHALL: The research is showing that in part, personality disorders are a mix between a person`s genetic inherited potential and their experiences with their family. It`s a big mix.
JORDAN: Experiences with their family is key. Because Baez is banking on you believing that it came from the sexual abuse of her father. We don`t know the truth but it could come from either. Bethany`s correct.
BEHAR: Well, stay tuned. We might find out more about this in the upcoming days. It`s a very interesting story.
Thank you very much, we`ll be right back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up next on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Sarah Palin`s bus tour makes a surprise pit stop in New York for pizza with Donald Trump. But why?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) * BEHAR: Sarah Palin`s top secret tour bus rolled into New York yesterday just in time to share a pizza with Donald Trump. It was quite an event. After dinner, Trump fired the pizza maker and Sarah Palin shot his dog.
(LAUGHTER)
Here to talk about this and other stories in the news, are Joe Levy, editor in chief, "Maxim" magazine. Judah Friedlander, comedian and author of "How to Beat Up Anybody." And Jen Lancaster, the author of "If You Were Here." Welcome, guys.
Now, first of all, Judah, I`ll start with you, where did she find parking for this huge bus, I`d like to know, in New York City?
JUDAH FRIEDLANDER, COMEDIAN: I drive every day in the city and I have no problem parking at all.
JEN LANCASTER, AUTHOR: You drive a bus?
FRIEDLANDER: What`s that?
LANCASTER: You drive a bus?
FRIEDLANDER: I drive two buses. I drive a school bus and then I drive my tour bus. Yes.
BEHAR: Oh, I didn`t know that.
FRIEDLANDER: Yes.
BEHAR: So do you get parking spots?
FRIEDLANDER: Yes, all the time.
BEHAR: Really?
FRIEDLANDER: I don`t get tickets, either. Cops are afraid of me.
BEHAR: Really?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Is it the hat or the shirt?
FRIEDLANDER: I`m better at karate than the cops, so they know not to mess with me.
BEHAR: That`s right, that`s right.
FRIEDLANDER: But I`ve watched that, you know, I`ve been to that pizza place. That`s one of the worst pizza places in the city.
BEHAR: Oh, really?
FRIEDLANDER: Yeah. I don`t know why Trump took her there.
BEHAR: Maybe it`s on purpose.
FRIEDLANDER: That`s a good point.
JOE LEVY, EDITOR IN CHIEF, MAXIM MAGAZINE: Or maybe he`s launching a pizza line that will be the finest pizza in the world. Especially as compared to the poor pizza which we ate -- this is just a little bit ridiculous, right? Sarah Palin is going around the country visiting national monuments, one of which is apparently Trump Tower.
FRIEDLANDER: And that pizza place.
(CROSSTALK)
LEVY: I can`t figure out, is she running for president or is she just really obsessed with "National Treasure" and trying to retrace Nick Cage`s steps?
BEHAR: It could be that. What do you think, Jen?
LANCASTER: If it`s so secret, how come the media`s following her so hard? The thing is, it`s like a dog who chases the car, if you caught the car, now what are you going to do with it?
BEHAR: Yeah, I know--
LEVY: Usually pee on it, from what I`ve seen with dogs and cars, which I hope is not what the media does with her bus.
BEHAR: Do you think she`s trying to get Trump`s endorsement in some way? Isn`t he popular with the Tea Party and the blacks, but isn`t he popular with the Tea Party and so is she?
FRIEDLANDER: Yes. Maybe she couldn`t find a place to eat pizza in New York so he was just there to help her out.
BEHAR: That could be.
LANCASTER: Why didn`t he take her someplace nice, like Per Se? Why pizza?
BEHAR: They`re supposed to be people persons (ph).
LEVY: That`s what real Americans eat. Real Americans don`t spend a million dollars to get those tiny little sandwiches they have at Per Se -- I don`t know what they have there, I`ve never been there.
Here`s the thing. She wants him to run, he wants her to run, it`s a mutual love society. They`re stirring up good attention, media attention for each other. He dropped out of the race already, and then did you see that after he dropped out he gave a speech in Vegas where he said how he would deal with the Chinese, and he`s like, we`re going to tax you mother(EXPLETIVE DELETED) 25 percent, which he actually said, right?
This is how he`s going to deal with the Chinese like they`re Teamsters showing up to build the next Trump Tower. That`s great. And then he tells Fox News, I talked to Sarah Palin and she understands my position on China. She was one of the few who got it immediately. Like that was complicated?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: OK. You have anything else to say about this?
FRIEDLANDER: No, I think I`m settled on the situation.
BEHAR: You`re settled on that?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: OK. Do you think she`s going to run for president? That`s the last question on her.
LANCASTER: I wouldn`t vote for her for president, but a Trump/Palin ticket would be the most awesome reality show ever.
BEHAR: It would. It would. She also was parked outside of Fox today, I understand. My spies tell me her bus was there for a couple of hours. What`s going on over there?
FRIEDLANDER: You have cool spies.
(LAUGHTER)
FRIEDLANDER: Not a lot of people have spies. You have more than one, that`s pretty awesome.
LEVY: She works there. She works there. Why wouldn`t her bus be parked there? She probably gets employee parking. You know--
BEHAR: But if she`s running for president, shouldn`t she -- shouldn`t Fox fire her? She`s an employee there.
LEVY: They will have to if she actually declares. She`ll actually have to resign if she declares. That`s why Trump dropped out, because NBC`s going to pay him more than America will.
BEHAR: That`s right. And Fox is going to pay her more than America will. So do you think she`ll actually run?
LEVY: God, I hope not. I hope that she is as greedy as Donald Trump.
BEHAR: Oh, I want her to run! Comedians need you, Sarah! Please run. Please.
OK, now, another story in the news is Kim Kardashian. She`s reportedly taking her soon to be husband Kris Humphrey`s name after they marry this summer. Does this mean she`ll have to make all new sex tapes, that`s my question, if she takes on his name?
LEVY: Wait, wait, I`m hoping that it means that, but I`m not sure why a name change means a new sex tape.
BEHAR: Because it`s not Kim Kardashian`s parts that we`re looking at.
LEVY: Oh, it`s "Kim Kardashian Superstar?" You actually -- you remember that the name of the sex tape is "Kim Kardashian Superstar" -- which it is, by the way. If you`re ordering online, you just want to Google --
BEHAR: It`s funny you happen to know it.
LEVY: Of course I know it. You know how many times I`ve Youtubed that? Here`s the thing. He should be taking her name.
BEHAR: Why?
LEVY: This is very traditional, but she`s more famous than he is. They can make more money if he takes her name, and she doesn`t have to get all new monogrammed stuff, because they`ll both be KK.
BEHAR: Yeah. But it is also branding, I mean, I like Kim Kardashian. She`s very nice. Her sisters, they were here, they`re nice kids. But she basically, her talent is what?
LANCASTER: Her talent is being famous.
BEHAR: Right.
LANCASTER: And she`s really good at being famous.
BEHAR: And her name is the brand.
FRIEDLANDER: I`ve seen her do some small theater pieces here in the city and I thought she was very good.
BEHAR: She`s brilliant in "Medea." Did you see "Medea?"
FRIEDLANDER: I did see that, yeah.
BEHAR: She was brilliant.
FRIEDLANDER: You know, I think she does a lot of good work. I think people don`t give her credit. She`s very talented. I just hope her basketball groom, you know, can appreciate her talent and she doesn`t give up acting and music and stuff.
BEHAR: And the mother, her mother --
(LAUGHTER)
FRIEDLANDER: She did the soundtrack to that porno too. A lot of people don`t know that. She played all the instruments and everything.
LEVY: Those were not instruments, my friend.
(LAUGHTER)
FRIEDLANDER: But she played all of them.
LEVY: Yes, she did.
BEHAR: You know, I heard that Paris and her mother were on another show on CNN last night, and that they were crying because of those tapes that Paris made. What do you make of that?
FRIEDLANDER: Well, they`ve had a rough life, you know?
LANCASTER: No one`s watching them.
(LAUGHTER)
FRIEDLANDER: Anything can set them off. The slightest thing could make them, you know, remember all the flashbacks of the rough upbringing they`ve had.
BEHAR: Did you -- did you ever see Paris`s sex tape?
FRIEDLANDER: No, I didn`t see it.
BEHAR: Joe obviously has because he has -- he sees all of them.
LEVY: Sure, of course.
FRIEDLANDER: I filmed it. I filmed it.
(CROSSTALK)
LEVY: It`s filmed in night vision so she`s green, and if you`ve ever seen those very special episodes of "Star Trek" with the green-skinned women, that was something you had been waiting to see all your life, is an actually green-skinned lady going at it.
BEHAR: Do you think that she regrets it, though? I mean, the crying and everything?
LEVY: The crying? No, I think she loves crying. Evidently, she does regret it, and she has actually said this before, although, like Kim Kardashian, it helped skyrocket her to fame. So it`s obviously --
BEHAR: But you know, these girls, Jen, they all want to do sex tapes. What do you make of that?
LANCASTER: If it weren`t for the sex tapes, no one would know who she was. And that`s the beauty of it, I guess. I didn`t know who Paris Hilton was until she was naked on my broadband connection.
BEHAR: Would you ever make one?
LANCASTER: I don`t think anyone would pay to see that.
BEHAR: Why not?
LANCASTER: A lot of reasons, but --
BEHAR: I think they would.
LANCASTER: -- there`s not a big market for plus-size porn.
BEHAR: Oh yes, there is.
FRIEDLANDER: I think you`re underestimating things.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: You`re underestimating it, you`re underestimating what`s out there, Jen.
(CROSSTALK)
FRIEDLANDER: Men want to see real women, you know? And, you know, the -- I -- for research--
LEVY: Let`s bring the lights down just a little and get started, people.
(LAUGHTER)
FRIEDLANDER: And you can back me up on this, you know all about this. You`re a journalist.
LEVY: OK.
FRIEDLANDER: No, I don`t even know what we`re talking about at this point.
BEHAR: OK, you know what, we have one more story, which is quite a good one. A giant baby weighing a whopping 14 pounds was born in California last month to Emily and Jose Maldonado (ph). The baby`s name is Mr. Maldonado. The infant`s poor mother was in labor for two days before doctors performed a c-section, and I hear the umbilical cord was a bungee rope. OK! Just so that you understand the story, we happen to have a bag of dog food here that weighs three quarters of a pound less -- I mean, more than the baby. So this is basically what the baby was weighing.
What do you make of this? This is the size of a baby coming out of someone`s va-jay-jay. I`m just saying.
LANCASTER: I wouldn`t carry a purse that weighed 14 pounds, let alone a baby.
FRIEDLANDER: I was actually 26 pounds when I was born.
(LAUGHTER)
FRIEDLANDER: It took 365 days for my mom to give birth to me. My birthday is every day.
(LAUGHTER)
FRIEDLANDER: Happy birthday me.
BEHAR: There was a baby in 1878 that weighed in at 23 -- a little more than 23 pounds, so you`re not that unusual, but it hasn`t happened in a century.
FRIEDLANDER: Yes. I`m old-fashioned, you know, so.
(LAUGHTER)
FRIEDLANDER: And my mom is very strong. She`s very strong.
BEHAR: How did this woman -- what was she eating? Boca Raton? What was she eating, the woman?
LEVY: You know, they put growth hormones in all the beef now, so I think we`ve just got to stop that. I just want to say, it doesn`t have to be this size. I mean, there are barbells that are this weight that are smaller. Maybe she had a very dense baby.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: But that -- OK. All right. Thank you guys.
FRIEDLANDER: That`s a good point. That`s a good point.
BEHAR: All right. Lovely to see you. You can see Judah performing at the Stress Factory in New Brunswick, New Jersey this Thursday through Saturday. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Can you name a Kardashian sister? I bet you can. But can you name the chancellor of Germany? That`s the question. Maybe we`re reading too much "National Enquirer" and not enough "New York Times." Has the tabloidization of our country made women`s brain`s atrophy? Maybe mine. I don`t know about everybody else.
My next guest says yes. And she has some solutions to fight it. Here now is Lisa Bloom, author of "Think: Straight Talk for Women to Stay Smart in a Dumbed-Down World." And joining us are Gloria Allred, victims rights attorney and Lisa`s mother. Plus, Sarah Bloom, Lisa`s daughter. This is the first time all three women have done a TV interview all together, and we`re very happy to have you all three here together.
OK, Lisa, let me start with you. Why are women`s brains atrophying? Tell me.
LISA BLOOM, AUTHOR, "THINK": 25 percent of young American women would rather win "America`s Next Top Model" than the Nobel Peace Prize. When I go and talk to young women, I find that overwhelmingly they can name more Kardashians than wars we are in. In fact, most young college women can`t name any of the wars that we are in.
BEHAR: This is college.
L. BLOOM: College. This is the best and the brightest. They can`t tell you the name of our vice president, our secretary of state or any of the issues before Congress.
BEHAR: What?
L. BLOOM: Because overwhelmingly, what women, especially young women are reading are tabloids. So they`re very conversant on the plot of "Real Housewives" or what`s happening with Lindsay Lohan or Tiger Woods, who he`s sleeping with, but not very knowledgeable about what`s going on with the world. So that`s what the book is about.
BEHAR: Was that true in the -- back in the day when I was in college?
L. BLOOM: I don`t think so and I`ll tell you why. Because tabloid media has enjoyed a meteoric rise in the last decade. 20 times as many young American women read a tabloid than a real newspaper. And we`ve seen the decline of real newspapers. Most of them are really suffering a way they weren`t a generation ago.
BEHAR: But isn`t that because of, you know, the iPads and iPhones and everything that`s online? Isn`t that --
L. BLOOM: I`m a big fan of the technology. I don`t think it`s the technology. I think it`s what we choose to click on, what we choose to watch, what we choose to read. After all, we can all read, right? It`s just that we`re not choosing to read matters of substance, serious newspapers, books, we`re turning more and more to the tabloids.
BEHAR: Gloria, do you think this is just a female problem or is it -- are the guys just as dumb as the rest of us?
(LAUGHTER)
GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY: Well, I`ll let the guys speak for themselves, Joy. But having said that, I think -- and Lisa points this out so well in her book, I think -- that we have really the dumbed-down culture, that we have, I think, the pornification of the culture--
BEHAR: Pornification?
ALLRED: Yes, with women really having to feel that they have to spend so much time on their looks but not anything on their brains, or very little time developing their intelligence. Maybe they think that isn`t valued as much. Maybe it`s because we have the technology that they`re interested in headlines and not something longer that helps them to think. But I think as Lisa points out in her book, there`s so much that they can do to make themselves smarter in really a relatively short period of time, and that is what is so important, to develop what`s inside as well as well as what`s outside.
BEHAR: You`re talking about pornification as opposed to looksism. Because they`re sort of -- you`re saying the same thing, people are obsessed with their looks and other people`s looks? Where do you get the pornification from?
ALLRED: I mean, I think because, I think women, and especially young women, maybe Sarah could speak to this, my granddaughter over here, that I think that women are, you know, looking like some of the women we see in porn films, adult films.
BEHAR: I see. Oh, that`s true.
ALLRED: Dressing like that.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLRED: Spending a lot of time on their makeup and their hair.
BEHAR: Slut dressing.
ALLRED: And all of that is fine, everybody wants to look good, but also there are other things that they could be learning and that are going to help them in life.
L. BLOOM: But it`s a question of obsession, too, because American women spend more time and money on cosmetics and plastic surgery than any other women in the world and more than any other women in human history.
BEHAR: But you know what? All research tells you that if you don`t look good, you`re not going to get ahead in this world. So can you blame women for getting all this done?
L. BLOOM: I`m all in favor of looking good. Right now I`ve got my hair done, I got the makeup, I got the high heels. I`m not saying we should just throw it all out, but it`s a question of balance. How much time are we spending on this? How much money are we spending on this? In the book, I talk about the serious risks to plastic surgery that hardly anybody even talks about anymore. The women are still dying from plastic surgery or who are maimed for life.
BEHAR: What about young girls, Sarah, that newer generation, they`re getting plastic surgery, botox, right?
SARAH BLOOM, LISA BLOOM`S DAUGHTER: I don`t know if people as young as people my age, but I think we just heard about something about an 8- year-old getting botox, and I think it`s all about what the culture puts value on, and how we put so much value on our looks, as my mom says in her book. And it`s easy to fall into that.
BEHAR: But you`re pretty much trashing your generation, you realize that.
S. BLOOM: I realize, but sometimes we deserve to have a wake-up call, like my mom`s book.
(LAUGHTER)
ALLRED: I don`t even think it`s trashing, Joy. I think it`s about empowering, and of course that`s what my life has been about, empowering women. I think Lisa is empowering them by giving specific suggestions about what they can do to really develop themselves.
BEHAR: And what was the tipping point, do you think, when this happened? When did this start? What started all of this decline that we`re talking about?
ALLRED: The decline in women?
BEHAR: Yes.
ALLRED: I think the more and more that we have the celebrity culture and --
BEHAR: But you mentioned somewhere or someone read that you were talking about Dan Quayle, that when Dan Quayle became vice president, that was the end of civilization.
L. BLOOM: That was in my book.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Oh, that`s in your book.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLRED: -- best work, and I`m so proud of her.
L. BLOOM: All my great ideas come from her, anyway.
BEHAR: But tell me about that.
L. BLOOM: I mean, it`s unscientific, but I say in the book that I`m pegging it to Dan Quayle, because here was a vice president that came into power during my formative years, who just said one silly thing after another.
BEHAR: Couldn`t spell potato.
L. BLOOM: Right. What a waste it is to lose one`s mind, he said to the United Negro College Fund, right? I mean, it was just horrendous. And--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Followed by George Bush, who said unbelievable things.
L. BLOOM: That`s right.
BEHAR: When I was doing standup about George Bush, all I had to do --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: No jokes, just quote George Bush.
ALLRED: Or just say his name and get a big laugh.
BEHAR: That was true too.
L. BLOOM: And the thing is, we`re all laughing along with this, but some of it`s really not funny. I mean, it is funny when for example in the book I talk about women who don`t know how many sides a triangle has or what country Mexico City is located in. But what are the consequences?
BEHAR: Who is buried in Grant`s tomb. That was the --
(CROSSTALK)
L. BLOOM: Exactly. But the consequences are very serious. Because the Iraq war, for example, when we went into it, most Americans believed that Saddam Hussein was connected with 9/11. Four years later, after many thousands of deaths, most Americans came to realize that he was not connected. The facts never changed, only our awareness changed.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: But that`s the lie that they were fed in -- to go to war.
L. BLOOM: But if we`re not reading and we`re not critically thinking, we`re not holding our leaders accountable.
BEHAR: That`s true.
ALLRED: And also the thousands of our own service people who are dying to keep us free, and we have a duty I think to at least know what`s going on.
BEHAR: To be smart. That`s right, it`s our duty. Absolutely. OK, we`ll continue this in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with attorney Lisa Bloom, her mother Gloria Allred and her daughter Sarah Bloom. OK, so now it seems to me like a lot of this is out of our control. You know, I mean, the Lohan story gets picked up. We talk about the Kardashians on this show and every show, "The View." We all talk about it. We also talk smart stuff. Is that OK if we do both, or are we just hypocritical?
L. BLOOM: It`s a question of balance. I have a section in the book, is the media making us stupid? And as a person who is a regular contributor to the media, is it my fault? I mean, I ask myself that question, because I talk about these things too.
And the answer is yes. I think yes, in part it is our fault in the media. But when I go to news directors with serious stories and they tell me we can`t put that on the air, the No. 1 answer I hear is because women don`t want it. Women don`t want to hear about international war crime tribunals or sex slavery.
BEHAR: Probably true. So what are we supposed to do about it?
L. BLOOM: Change the consumer preference. I wrote this book to women to say, look, if you don`t want dumbed-down media shoveling this stuff to you day after day, then click on the important sites. Follow the real--
BEHAR: They won`t listen (ph), though.
L. BLOOM: I disagree. I have faith in women, because when I talk to them, they say I do want substance, I do want meaning. How do I do it? You do it by reading what`s important, by following what`s important, by getting connected with your world.
ALLRED: And I have to say that I`m so excited, I have to be proud mom for a minute.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Go on.
ALLRED: "The Seattle Post Intelligencer" just called Lisa`s book the lightbulb of the year for women, and so she`s getting great reviews in "Elle" magazine. So that`s primarily focused on women. I think they understand that women do want something more, and they just need to know how to get there.
L. BLOOM: Let`s not write off a generation of women.
BEHAR: No. But you know, Gloria, one of your daughter`s solutions is to have more sex.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: How does that make you smarter?
ALLRED: How does that make you smarter? Well, that`s how I brought Lisa into the world, after all. That was a pretty smart thing I did, right?
BEHAR: Have more sex with smart guys, produce smart children, is that how you do it?
L. BLOOM: It`s a small point on how to be happy. But the truth is, the studies are, the people who more sex, they`re happier. That sex is actually better for you than vitamins. It`s all in there.
ALLRED: I asked Lisa, can I have sex and read at the same time?
(LAUGHTER)
ALLRED: Would that be all right?
BEHAR: But vitamins are so much easier to swallow.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Sarah, do you want to follow in your grandmother`s and your mother`s footsteps and be a smart attorney like they are?
S. BLOOM: I definitely want to be smart. Attorney or not, that remains to be seen, but I`m keeping an open mind.
(CROSSTALK)
L. BLOOM: She`s just graduated from Penn. Ivy League grad, very smart girl.
BEHAR: And what if she hadn`t gotten into Penn? You would have -- you would have been upset, right?
L. BLOOM: No.
BEHAR: What if she had to go to some, you know, Apex (ph) technical school?
L. BLOOM: It`s not the school. It is the fact that she`s using her brain, that she is defining herself by her achievements and her contributions, and not by her appearance.
ALLRED: And of course, as Lisa points out, and I always do, you don`t have to have a college education to be smart.
BEHAR: No, that`s right.
ALLRED: And you can be a working person, you can be a full-time homemaker caring for children and you can be smart and you can get even smarter.
BEHAR: Some of the most highly educated people are the dumbest. Thank you very much, ladies. Lisa`s book is called "Think: Straight Talk for Women to Stay Smart in a Dumbed-Down World."
Good night, everybody, thanks for watching.
END
