Return to Transcripts main page
Joy Behar Page
Casey Anthony Trial; Interview with Kardashian Sisters
Aired June 06, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, more testimony in the Casey Anthony trial as prosecutors reveal the science behind their murder charge. But will their whole argument depend on the so-called "smell of death" in Casey`s car? And what are the jurors thinking at this point? Joy wants to know how they`re sorting out the technical evidence from the emotional testimony.
Plus the Kardashians tell Joy about Kim`s engagement and respond to the claim that reality TV is making women dumber.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Jurors in the Casey Anthony murder trial heard from an expert witness today who said he found high levels of chloroform in Casey`s car, as well as the odor of human decomposition.
Here with more on the case are Ashleigh Banfield, ABC News correspondent who was in court today; Thomas Luka, Lee Anthony`s former attorney; and Susan Filan, former assistant state attorney.
Ok. Now, the forensic expert, Dr. Arpad Vass, was asked today about the tests he did on a carpet sample from Casey`s trunk. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was the largest piece that you found in this evaluation of the carpet sample?
DR. ARPAD VASS, FORENSIC EXPERT: The largest peak in the chromatogram is called the base peak. The base peak was chloroform.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did the amount of chloroform that you found in the chromatogram surprise you?
VASS: We were shocked.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why?
VASS: We have never seen chloroform in that level in environmental samples before. At least, I never have in 20 years of shooting this type of samples.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ok, Ashleigh, so what -- tell us the implications of that report.
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CORRESPONDENT, ABC NEWS: Well, it`s big. I mean, it`s huge. When a jury hears that there were enormous levels of shocking chloroform in the trunk of this car, clearly they`re going to feel as though a forensic anthropologist from what`s known as the body farm is going to be credible.
But I got to be honest with you, Joy, I think the defense attorney in this case was able to do some pretty good handiwork at impeaching his credentials and his history.
BEHAR: Wow. You tell me, Susan, how does the defense attorney explain that away?
SUSAN FILAN, FORMER ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: Well, exactly as Ashleigh was saying.
BEHAR: How?
FILAN: Through the cross examination; just to point out all of the holes in the forensic evidence of this case. And there are. I mean this is where the battle of the experts becomes important, the science of this case, because this is really the meat and potatoes of it. This is where the rubber meets the road.
If the state can`t actually prove through the science that there was a murder and that Casey is the person who murdered Caylee, all the theatrics, all the histrionics, all the drama, all the family feud in the world isn`t going to render a conviction.
BEHAR: So basically they`re going to say this is junk science?
FILAN: Or they`re going to say it`s not proven science, it`s not tested science. Some of the science in this case is being introduced for the very first time in the country in this case.
So it`s fair cross -- cross examination is supposed to be the engine that drives for the truth. So it`s fair game for Jose Baez to really test this. But I think on balance, I think the jury is going to find it basically credible. Is it going to be enough to tip the scale past beyond a reasonable doubt? That`s the question for the jury.
But even though you can cross examine it, doesn`t mean it doesn`t hold up.
BEHAR: It kind of reminds me -- what you`re talking about -- it reminds of the O.J. case a little bit where they basically discredited the DNA evidence and said it was tampered with, and this and that. So they can do something similar to that.
FILAN: Absolutely. If you start to doubt the science in this case, you might doubt the whole case.
BEHAR: The only thing is, Ashleigh, the forensic expert was very specific, very hard to follow. Do you think the jury seemed to be able to keep up with him?
BANFIELD: I`m really glad you asked that, because I was having trouble at times and I was getting a little sleepy too. And so I looked over at the jury frequently to get a read on whether they got it, Joy. And I have to be honest with you, there were times I really don`t believe they got it.
Many of them stopped taking notes. Some of them even put their notepads away. And at one point I even saw one of them sort of looking around because it was very arcane stuff. And we can bog a jury down with this.
Like you just said, in O.J., they bogged them down. And by the way, DNA was brand new back then. So maybe they didn`t buy it back then, they buy it now. Maybe the jury`s not going to buy this new science now, and maybe in 10, 20 years they`ll be buying it in other courtrooms.
BEHAR: I see. So timing is everything when you`re in trouble.
The expert was asked about -- this is really scary now. The expert was asked about the odor coming from the car sample. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you first opened it, what was your reaction?
VASS: Well, I essentially jumped back a foot or two. The odor was extremely overwhelmingly strong.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you immediately recognize the odor that was emanating from the piece of carpet in the can?
VASS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what did you recognize that odor to be?
VASS: It was -- well, I recognized it as human decomposition odor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. Thomas, I heard that they may want the jury to smell this odor. Is that going to happen? And what will it prove? I mean these people are not scientists, really. How do they know what they`re sniffing?
THOMAS LUKA, Lee ANTHONY`S FORMER ATTORNEY: Joy, they don`t but there`s a lot of secrets in this case. What you have to make sure of is that the jury -- you have put the jury in the position of the actual actors. In the position of Casey, in the position of George, in the position of Cindy Anthony, of Lee Anthony; what were they thinking during that 31-daytime window?
It will smell bad. And they can definitely tell that it doesn`t -- excuse me, I`m sorry. They won`t necessarily be able to identify it but they know it will smell bad or it will different than what they`re used to.
BEHAR: Yes. Right. Someone said the other day, maybe it was you, that it`s a very specific smell that`s unlike an animal smell, a decomposing animal, or whatever. But -- and I guess they just have to take the word of the experts who say that this is what it is, right?
FILAN: Well, that`s what testimony is. Otherwise you make the jurors lay witnesses in the case, as if they would have to smell it for themselves or know things for themselves. The expert testifies and gives that information to the jury. The jury either buys it or they don`t. But I think accumulatively they`re going to hear about the hair in the trunk with the post-mortem root banding that can be linked --
BEHAR: What`s the hair in the trunk?
FILAN: There was a single hair in the trunk where an expert, a former FBI expert, testified that it has post-mortem root banding which is evidence of a decomposing body. So now you`ve got --
BEHAR: A hair -- is it Caylee`s hair?
FILAN: Well, they said it`s consistent with Caylee`s hair. They can`t prove 100 percent because it`s mitochondrial DNA which means it`s linked to the mother. But they know that it`s not Casey`s because it wasn`t processed hair. It wasn`t Cindy`s because it wasn`t processed hair.
BEHAR: I see. Ashleigh, do you want to say something Ashleigh?
BANFIELD: Joy, I think, you know -- yes, I think let`s go back to the smell of human decomposition. It`s been real powerful throughout this whole case. But on cross examination, this defense attorney was able to elicit from this witness that in 2008 he gave an interview to a newspaper in which he said human decomposition essentially smells like a rotten potato. When a potato decomposes, that`s basically it.
So what`s Jose Baez defense through this? That the garbage is what made it smell like human decomposition. I thought it was really strong and the jurors were listening to that. You can`t put a tap on it. They are getting a lot of this stuff and they will remember that.
BEHAR: You know, it`s interesting. I mean I`m just speaking from watching "Law and Order".
FILAN: Yes.
BEHAR: Whenever one of these shows -- whenever they walk into a body, a room where a body has decomposed, they`re just overwhelmed, they can`t take it. A rotten potato?
FILAN: Yes, no. I don`t think so. And again, the case is a mosaic. At the end you stand back and you look at the whole. You don`t necessarily look at each individual tiny little piece under the microscope the way we are as it`s coming into evidence.
When you stand back and look at the whole and take it cumulatively on balance, is there any other reasonable inference that this jury`s going to be able to draw, that there was a dead body in a trunk, and the dead body was Caylee`s?
BANFIELD: Yes. I think they will. I think they will because I can`t read juries. I try and I can`t. And I have seen the most iconic -- I`ve seen the most dichotomy in these cases because when you just think your gut tells you, this is a guilty across the board, a jury will come back because they listened to the instruction, they listened to a defense attorney hammer and hammer and hammer away at them, follow the law. You swore under oath you would follow the law. If you can`t follow the law in this case that tells you a reasonable doubt exists, and you have to acquit, then you get in trouble. They might just say I`ve got reasonable doubt as I follow the law.
FILAN: I would disagree with Ashleigh and I think jurors absolutely follow the instructions to the T. But I think after they follow the instructions to the T in this case and they take all the evidence in, on balance, and you stand back and you look at the mosaic as a whole, of course nobody knows what this jury`s going to do, but I think that even though the defense may be scoring a point here and there on cross examination, looking at that in isolation in a microscope is a mistake.
BEHAR: Well, in the next segment --
BANFIELD: It`s hard. It`s an uphill battle.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: In the next segment of my show we`re going to be talking to an expert who knows about juries. So I want to deal with that because that`s interesting stuff.
FILAN: It`s great stuff.
BEHAR: I don`t know what a jury`s thinking and neither do you.
FILAN: Nobody ever does. There`s body language experts and people that try to read them but ultimately the jury doesn`t even know really until they get back into that jury room and they form a group. 12 people have to come to a unanimous verdict. All you need is one person to say, "I don`t know." I don`t know -- and you don`t get the guilty verdict.
BEHAR: Ok. Thomas, now you were Lee`s lawyer, that`s Casey`s brother, Lee. Do you know what Lee thinks about Casey`s defense, about the allegations of abuse, for instance?
LUKA: As far as I know, Mr. Anthony had absolutely no hand whatsoever in knowledge about this defense prior to this -- prior to two weeks ago.
BEHAR: Right.
LUKA: No one knew. It was literally a bolt from the blue. It`s very unpredictable -- the bold effects.
BEHAR: Does he think that his sister is guilty or not.
LUKA: I don`t think he does. I think there`s definitely -- as Ashleigh pointed out, there`s definitely a lot reasonable doubt in this case. Now whether the prosecution can override that with the science that`s when -- it`s like Ashleigh said -- that`s where the rubber really meets the road here Joy.
FILAN: But here`s the problem. I`ve always said from the start, there`s a real whole in this case. The state doesn`t have a cause of death. And the science is experimental and novel and new.
But the defense has assumed a burden that they didn`t have to assume in its opening statements by saying that they know --
LUKA: That`s true.
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD: Did they ever. Susan, you nailed it.
BEHAR: They screwed up a little bit.
FILAN: Oh big time.
BEHAR: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: I want to say, I want to go on the record guys of saying that I think there`s doubt in the case. Whether it`s reasonable doubt is not for me to determine but this jury is going to have to determine if it`s reasonable --
(CROSSTALK)
FILAN: I think the problem --
BEHAR: Do you think Casey`s lying? All of you, do you think she`s lying, Susan?
FILAN: Totally, I think she`s absolutely lying. But she may be lying and she still may not be convicted.
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: I know she`s lying.
BEHAR: She`s lying.
BANFIELD: We know she is. She`s admitted it.
(CROSSTALK)
LUKA: Yes she`s lied -- she`s lied 50 times.
BANFIELD: Yes, she`d lied all the way through it, all the (INAUDIBLE). Mom, keep looking for my child. Dad, keep the charity going. She`s lied like -- like for five hours of videotape and how -- and how many hours after that we don`t know that`s not on videotape.
FILAN: A liar does not a murderer make.
BEHAR: Right.
BANFIELD: A liar does not a murderer make.
FILAN: Hi Ashleigh.
BEHAR: All right, thank you, everybody.
LUKA: But it will help the case.
BEHAR: All right. Thank you everybody. You can communicate later by Twitter.
FILAN: Great.
BEHAR: Ok. As I said, we`ll have more on the Casey Anthony trial, about the jury, after a short break. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Casey Anthony`s fate will be decided by a panel of 12 jurors. But who are they exactly and what is life like for them? With me now are Mark Mazzarella, jury consultant and co-author of "Reading People"; and Dr. Gail Saltz, psychiatrist.
Mark, how hard was it to find this jury? I mean it`s very hard to find people I think who have never heard of this and who are not prejudiced, who believe in the death penalty I would assume, right?
MARK MOZZARELLA, JURY CONSULTANT: Very difficult in a case like this, with this publicity. And I think that`s reflected in the fact this is the first time in 20 years in this county that a juror -- a jury has been sequestered from the very inception of the case. And it`s a -- a function of just how much publicity there is out there and how difficult it`s going to be to keep the jury impartial.
BEHAR: Right. But there are seven women and five men on the jury. Speaking about the death penalty, are women less likely to want to put someone to death? I mean how -- how do they differ sex -- gender-wise?
MAZZARELLA: Well, statistically, women are less likely to put someone to death and so are minorities. Again, statistically and that`s one reason why you see a lot more jurors who are dismissed during the preliminary phases of the voir dire --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
MAZZARELLA: -- who are either minorities or women.
BEHAR: Gail, do you think that people in general are more sympathetic to women?
DR. GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHIATRIST: Not --
(CROSSTALK)
MAZZARELLA: Well, I think that`s true.
BEHAR: You do.
SALTZ: You think that`s true?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: What do you -- what do you think?
SALTZ: He`s probably in a better position.
I would say sympathies are going to have to do a lot with whether the people have children or not, whether they feel identified with her or with certain family members.
So for instance, the defense is using, you know, George sexually abused her.
BEHAR: Right.
SALTZ: So the men who you might think would be less sympathetic maybe even less sympathetic if they feel identified with George as a man.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Being accused of sexual abuse falsely.
SALTZ: That he being accused of sexual abuse falsely. So I think it has -- you can probably make some generalizations but it probably has more to do with those individuals who -- and what their life story is and therefore what drives their reaction to, I have children, I could imagine that. I --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
SALTZ: -- like, I`m a father, I could imagine that.
BEHAR: But I would think that the women would feel more sympathetic to the abuse accusation because they usually are not listened to when they`re abused and more women are sexually abused than men.
SALTZ: Well, the question is --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
SALTZ: -- which of these women may have had some sort of situation occur in their early life. Then they are going to be -- I mean you would think that might have been asked about, if that was going to be brought up.
BEHAR: I would think so -- Mark, were they asked questions like that, do you think?
MAZZARELLA: I`m sure they were. I`m sure those were questions that they may have been asked that in private. Those are questions that are very sensitive, obviously. And is typical in a case like this that they would be pulled apart from the rest of the jury, individually, and ask questions like that. I`m not sure whether that`s happened in this case.
BEHAR: What about race? I mean, you have two of the jurors are non- white, the others are white, this is about a white situation. Does that have -- do they respond differently?
MAZZARELLA: Well, again, you`re going to have more pro-death penalty jurors who are white than are minority, including black or Hispanic. So the odds are with a jury that`s predominantly white, you`re going to have a stronger number that are going to be pro-death penalty.
But part of the problem with this process is, in the process of picking a death penalty jury, you eliminate a lot of the less hard-line, less pro law and order jurors for the guilt phases as well. So what you`ve done is you`ve weeded out a number of prospective jurors for the trial who would have been potentially more defense-oriented. Because the ones you`ve kept that are all in favor of or at least open-minded to the prospect of the death penalty are going to tend to be more conviction-oriented.
BEHAR: Wow. That`s interesting.
SALTZ: Although I think, you know, one thing that was discussed earlier and is still the case is, is the wild card is the group dynamic.
BEHAR: Right.
SALTZ: When you put a group of people in a room, the question becomes who has the personality type to sort of become the leader? And then, you know, what -- what is the group`s reaction to that? So group psychology can be very different than individual -- these -- these jurors were picked individually.
We don`t know how they`ll operate as a group. And think that`s -- that`s the big wild card. Because when you put a group together --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Right.
SALTZ: -- they can influence each other, people who feel that they have to stand apart from a group because that`s psychically who they are.
BEHAR: Yes.
SALTZ: Maybe even more prone to do that. Or they may come together and do something that they would not have done before -- BEHAR: Right.
SALTZ: -- because of group pressure.
BEHAR: I see. Yes Mark, last word.
MAZZARELLA: And that`s -- that`s going to be even more the case here where they`re going to be living with each other basically 24/7 for two months. So that group dynamic, hopefully they get along. If they do, they`re going to have some very strong bonds and the leaders are going to have a lot of influence over the rest.
BEHAR: Ok, we`re going to continue this in a minute, stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back discussing the jurors for the Casey Anthony murder trial.
Mark, the jury is sequestered, ok? Now, what does it mean? Do they ever see their family or what?
MAZZARELLA: Well, they probably have a visitation time frame where they can see them on a Saturday, where it`s supervised visitation. They have -- they`re all staying at the same hotel, the same floor, they come and go together, they watch TV together, they`re given the same reading materials and very limited access to the outside world, including their families, and under very strict control.
BEHAR: Would it prompt them to come to a hasty decision just because they want to get out of this thing? I saw "12 Angry Men". I see what happens there. I mean you`re sequestered for six weeks with the same people who will get on your nerves eventually and maybe you`ll just say, ok, guilty, or not guilty.
MAZZARELLA: Sure, people are people. There`s no question that after six to eight weeks without normal -- basically, they`re in house arrest for six to eight weeks. And if they want to deliberate for two weeks and they can tack two weeks onto their sentence. They will tend to get right down to business.
BEHAR: It`s a very stressful thing to do. It`s outrageous what they have to go through. It`s a lot.
SALTZ: It`s a lot of grisly information.
(CROSSTALK)
SALTZ: There are going to be some people who are going to fare better than others. There are going to be people who don`t have a huge amount of resilience, who maybe already are predisposed to anxiety or some stress, and they may not fare well.
Just like journalists who go into a horrible situation can come out with post-traumatic stress disorder. So can a juror being shown murder, smelling death, hearing these graphic details.
And let me say that for these families that are sequestered, if you have a child, to be removed from your child for weeks.
BEHAR: It`s not really fair.
SALTZ: It takes a real toll on that child. I mean a serious toll.
BEHAR: Can you get out -- Mark, can you get out of jury duty if you have children at home?
MAZZARELLA: Sure. You definitely can. In the last sequestered jury about five years ago in Florida, one woman was dismissed because she had a ferret at home that she couldn`t take care of if she was sequestered. So I think children --
BEHAR: Oh, the old ferret excuse.
MAZZARELLA: The ferret excuse. You know, just adding to that pressure comment, though, in this case, in a death case, where the real pressure is going to kick in, when these people get out of the abstract concept of death penalty and into the reality of do they raise their hand when the vote is taken as to whether this woman will be put to death, and that is probably the most stressful thing a juror will ever experience.
BEHAR: Well, there`s religious implications.
SALTZ: Absolutely.
BEHAR: You`re putting someone to death.
SALTZ: And there are lasting implications. The idea that someone has to on their moral conscience feel, believe that they really have done the right thing, and know that at the end of the day, and they made a decision for or against somebody`s death.
BEHAR: One more question mark. There was one juror there that I understand from an HLN reporter, that she was taking notes only sporadically. Like listen, listen, listen. The rest of them were taking notes probably for a book they`re going to write. She`s quiet, quiet, then takes notes. What do you make of that, of that juror? All it takes is one, right?
MAZZARELLA: It only be takes one. I`ve long since given up trying to figure out what to read from a juror who takes notes or doesn`t take notes. Some people are just note-takers. Some people are just lazy. Some people are prolific note-takers and they`re not paying attention, they`re just writing without thinking. So, you never know.
SALTZ: Some people are auditory listeners and learners. And some people are more visual learners. So some people would have to write it down, sort of re-learn it if you will. Other people have to listen and not write in order to process.
BEHAR: Except that you really need to write down something like, the odor is such and such, the chloroform is --
SALTZ: You know what?
(CROSSTALK)
SALTZ: There are really different kind of minds, Joy. And some people really have to listen and not be doing something else that would distract them.
BEHAR: I see. Well, I`m a multi-tasker. I`d be writing. I`d be twittering. You can`t do that, right?
SALTZ: Certainly not.
BEHAR: Ok. Thanks guys.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Well, after a week of stonewalling, New York Congressman Anthony Weiner held a press conference this afternoon and admitted sending a picture of himself in his underwear to a woman in Seattle on Twitter. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ANTHONY WEINER, (D), NEW YORK: Last Friday night I tweeted a photograph of myself that I intended to send as a direct message as part of a joke to a woman in Seattle. Once I realized I had posted it to Twitter, I panicked. I took it down and said that I had been hacked. I then continued with that story, to stick to that story, which was a hugely regrettable mistake.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: The congressman also admitted that this was not the first time he sent a racy photo or text or e-mail.
Here now to discuss this and other stories are E.D. Hill, CNN contributor and conservative analyst. Rachel Sklar, editor at large for mediaite.com, and Elon James White, comedian and editor in chief of thisweekinblackness.com. I love that.
OK, so, all of you, are you surprised by this admission or what?
RACHEL SKLAR, EDITOR AT LARGE, MEDIAITE.COM: I was surprised, I have to admit. You know, it -- the hacking story seemed believable. There was some sort of like online evidence for it. And just the escalating stupidity sort of seemed to militate against it possibly being true. And that`s why when he finally admitted it, you were like, oh no.
E.D. HILL, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: He hasn`t even finally admitted it. He comes out and he says, this was part of a joke. I panicked. OK, read me in on the joke. Because I`m not getting this. He still hasn`t--
BEHAR: The joke of sending his picture of himself in his underwear?
HILL: Yes, I sent this as part of a joke.
BEHAR: Well, maybe he thinks his that wiener is a joke. But that`s a long way to go with that.
(LAUGHTER)
SKLAR: The one thing he now doesn`t have to say, it really is him.
HILL: You know, it was a frivolous exchange among friends. No, it wasn`t. You`re a married guy. You acknowledged doing this after you`re married. Before he`s married, I couldn`t care less what he`s doing.
BEHAR: Well, he, by the way he says he and his wife, Elon, are going to work it out. So is she being the good wife, do you think?
ELON JAMES WHITE, COMEDIAN: I`m thinking she`s just being quiet for now. Because the fact is like she just got this information this morning is when she figured this out. So I don`t think she knows if she wants to stay with him just yet. The moment she knows she doesn`t want to have a conversation with him.
BEHAR: There`s more coming out. He also said that he had inappropriate communication with other women. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WEINER: In addition, over the past few years, I have engaged in several inappropriate conversations conducted over Twitter, Facebook, e- mail, and occasionally on the phone with women I met online. I`ve exchanged messages and photos of an explicit nature with about six women over the last three years. For the most part, these communications took place before my marriage, though some have sadly took place after.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Busy, busy, busy.
(LAUGHTER)
WHITE: Why was he so stupid?
BEHAR: Oh, God.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Let me just say one more thing, because he did say that even though he`s been doing all this, he never had -- he never committed adultery with any of these people. That`s what he`s saying.
HILL: There was no physical contact.
BEHAR: No physical contact.
HILL: He just sexts, it was just phone sex.
(CROSSTALK)
SKLAR: I don`t think he said that, I think--
HILL: He said sexting. Talks inappropriately with women on the phone.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It`s not the same. The breathing heavy is out of the picture.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You can`t text heavy breathing, right?
SKLAR: You can just be the recipient of it.
BEHAR: So what do you want to say about that part? That he -- and this has -- he`s been very busy, this boy.
WHITE: It`s magic that he thought he could get away with this. He thought -- as much as he antagonizes people, he is an antagonizer. That is his role everywhere. And he thought it was like, oh, I`m just going to antagonize everyone, but no one`s going to figure out that I`m sending things over Twitter. Like, I know better not to send things over Twitter and I`m not even important.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everyone knows it.
BEHAR: Everyone knows it now. It`s a dangerous particular social networking I think, twittering.
HILL: The media is tiptoeing around. Oh, it`s regrettable, it`s tragic. It`s whatever. No, it`s flat-out lying, and they all seem to do it. And it doesn`t matter if it`s a D, an R or an I in front of their names, they all do it. And the only time they ever seem to be really sorry is when they get caught. That`s it. This guy was caught and then spent the next over a week lying, flat-out, bald-faced lying about it, to everyone, including that sweet Wolf Blitzer.
BEHAR: I know. Never lie -- to -- that`s a deal-breaker when you lie to Wolf Blitzer.
HILL: That`s right.
(CROSSTALK)
SKLAR: It puts underpants back into the vocabulary, which is good for all.
BEHAR: He`s sort of -- he is feeling sorry, he took full responsibility for his actions and spoke about how it hurt the people in his life. He looks a little verklempt in this video. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WEINER: At this time to clear up some of the questions that have been raised over the past ten days or so and take full responsibility for my actions. At the outset, I`d like to make it clear that I have made terrible mistakes that have hurt the people I care about the most, and I`m deeply sorry. I have not been honest with myself, my family, my constituents, my friends, and supporters and the media.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: What can I say now, now that I`ve said I`m sorry.
SKLAR: Let me be Canadian here, Joy. I think it`s very difficult to watch that and not think, yes, he lied. Yes, he exacerbated the situation. All of that is true. It is still sad. That is still a sad thing. That makes all the wiener jokes that I had planned fly out of my head, because it`s a family tragedy. It really is. It`s a sad thing.
BEHAR: Well, you know, it`s not like the family tragedy of John Edwards, where there was a baby and a wife with cancer.
SKLAR: That`s a tragedy.
BEHAR: Let`s get this in perspective. This is just twittering and e- mailing and stuff like that.
HILL: This is a pervy guy who got off on doing this, before and after he`s married. That`s all it boils down to. And then he lied about it like there was no tomorrow.
WHITE: It`s not -- OK, pervy is strong.
HILL: I`m using that word.
WHITE: It`s terribly inappropriate, but pervy is just --
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: He acknowledges these are not people he knew, these are not people he had any kind of relationship with. These are people he doesn`t even know what their ages are. So I say yes, it is pervy. He`s finding random people out there, starting these offbeat conversations with them, and as a joke is sending these pervy photos of himself. If he knew these folks, it goes beyond that.
BEHAR: He`s wearing underwear and he`s got quite the fabulous physique, if I may add. He looks great.
(CROSSTALK)
WHITE: Apparently he only sent one crotch shot. Like that was one to Seattle.
HILL: One crotch shot too many, I think.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: That was a picture of a shirtless Chris Lee. That`s Weiner, this is Chris Lee. This former congressman who resigned after he posted it. He resigned. Now, Weiner didn`t resign today. Should he resign? You`re on his case, should he resign?
HILL: No, I think it`s up to the people that he represents to decide that.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: If you want to elect a liar, that`s fine with me, go ahead.
SKLAR: As you say, on the scale of scandal, it actually ranks pretty low.
BEHAR: It does rank low. Yes. So I think the New Yorkers will say, oh, who cares, so what, who cares. Unless there`s more to the story.
Let us do one more story, a quickie on Sarah Palin, because over the weekend, my favorite historian was in Boston where she shared her version of Paul Revere`s famous ride. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH PALIN: He who warned the British that they weren`t going to be taking away our arms by ringing those bells and making sure as he`s riding his horse through town to send those warning shots and bells.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Now, if I may paraphrase Longfellow, here we go, listen, my children, and you shall hear Sarah Palin botched the story of Paul Revere. Who remembers that day back in `75? Except for John McCain, there`s no one alive. According to Sarah, he was warning the British, but for all she knows he said it in Yiddish. Was there a lantern, a bell, was he riding a horse? Nothing`s for certain, this is Palin, of course. It`s two if by land and one if by sea. That`s Palin`s version of history.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Thank you. Thank you. OK, now, can you translate what she was trying to do there?
HILL: She was trying to cover up a big goof. You know, that -- later on, she--
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: She says this. It is absolutely incorrect. If you start reading history and looking at what happened after he lit up the Old North church, then you can kind of come around to making argument that maybe in some way she was creatively correct. But no, she was just trying to cover up for saying something --
(CROSSTALK)
SKLAR: That can`t be a new standard of history.
HILL: It shouldn`t be.
BEHAR: But you know what, Rachel, she`s on a history tour. This is her idea. So shouldn`t she be prepared with historical information? If she`s going to stop at Paul Revere`s house, know what happened.
SKLAR: That`s true.
BEHAR: And then she says it`s a gotcha question. Here`s the question. What have you seen so far today and what are you going to take away from your visit? That`s a gotcha question?
HILL: I don`t think so.
WHITE: In Sarah Palin land, it`s a gotcha question.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: That`s a good question. Wait until she has to answer that one. Last word.
WHITE: It`s magic that Sarah Palin, and sometimes a lot of Republicans will do this thing where they use will power to try to meld -- like, mold history. Like if I say it with enough confidence, it will become true.
BEHAR: Thank you, guys, we`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBIN WILLIAMS, ACTOR: I think Joy was staying on point as much as she could, and we ended up I think talking about cats, or puss if you want to say that. But it was really lovely and I think we had a wonderful, wonderful afternoon. And it`s worth the $600 she paid.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Over the past few weeks, the Kardashians have been in the tabloids more than Anthony Weiner`s underwear. Starring in "Keeping Up with the Kardashians" while running a reality empire is not easy. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When was the last time you think I`ve had a day off?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What I do is --
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You don`t make family time. We used to have family dinners. That`s our point.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How much money is it worth? Life is about memories and experiences.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You choose showing me, teaching me a lesson?
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A real manager wouldn`t give a [EXPLETIVE DELETED] about half the things I do for you. A real manager would work 9:00 to 5:00 and not go the extra mile. And that`s what you guys forget. It`s [EXPLETIVE DELETED] up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Has any mother ever been fired by her own daughters? Or will Kris be the first? Joining me now are Khloe Kardashian Odom and Kourtney Kardashian. Welcome to the show, ladies. Is that for the cameras or real?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, it`s all real.
BEHAR: All real?
KHLOE KARDASHIAN ODOM, REALITY STAR: It`s probably rated down because the cameras are there, because she really is like afraid, how are people going to perceive me? But that`s how she talks to us when she thinks that we`re screwing up her empire.
BEHAR: Her empire?
ODOM: Yes.
BEHAR: How much is the empire worth these days?
ODOM: Oh, honey, a real girl never tells.
BEHAR: Are we talking half a billion?
ODOM: That`s fine, sure, we`ll take that number. We`ll take that one.
BEHAR: Could be.
ODOM: Could be.
BEHAR: I mean, I don`t know. I know Kim`s worth a lot of money. But does she share with you?
ODOM: Oh, we all have our own little bowls of gold.
BEHAR: You do? But you don`t have -- what is that -- you don`t have that 24.5 carat rock she`s wearing.
ODOM: This one ain`t bad. Check that one out.
BEHAR: How many carats is this?
ODOM: How many do you want it to be?
BEHAR: 10.
ODOM: You`re a genius. No, it is. It is 10.
(CROSSTALK)
ODOM: Oh, you`ve had some diamonds yourself.
BEHAR: Frankly, 20 is too much.
ODOM: I agree. I agree.
BEHAR: I mean, it`s exhausting.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cut it in half.
BEHAR: This seems like the business does interfere with the family dynamic every once in a while. Tell me a little bit about that. Your mother, she has given you grief over your weight gain and this and that. That must be annoying.
ODOM: Well, I mean, that`s probably the hardest part, because, you know, someday she wants me to have a baby immediately. And then the next week she says, you`re fat, you`ve gained 10 pounds, or whatever she wants to say. So I do get -- and that`s the thing. She`s my mom and manager. And because she`s talking from a manager, I get more defensive, because I feel like my mom, why is my mom talking to me like this? Because I sometimes forget the line, mom and manager.
KOURTNEY KARDASHIAN, REALITY STAR: It`s a very fine line. And I think it`s a hard thing in your family, like they always say, don`t mix business and family.
BEHAR: Yes.
KARDASHIAN: And that`s, like, all we do. But we love that. That also makes this all worth it is that we are all working together. We get to spend so much time together. Like I wouldn`t want to be doing this all day without Khloe next to me.
ODOM: I would not do this with like some person to get on my nerves all day long that I don`t know. I would never do this.
KARDASHIAN: But we`re--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Because you`re sisters --
KARDASHIAN: No, we`re literally soul mates.
(CROSSTALK)
ODOM: I am obsessed with this little girl.
BEHAR: What is it about her that you`re so obsessed with?
ODOM: She is like a little poly (ph) pocket that you can just stick in your back pocket. Like how cute?
(CROSSTALK)
KARDASHIAN: And Khloe`s so entertaining that by the end of the day, the things that come out of my mouth are like crazy.
BEHAR: You`re like Charo and her chihuahua.
(LAUGHTER)
ODOM: I`m Charo and you`re the chihuahua.
KARDASHIAN: Bark.
ODOM: Does whatever I say. That`s the best part about her.
BEHAR: You like that. She`s more the bossy controlling type.
ODOM: 100 percent.
KARDASHIAN: I let her think that. If it`s serious, then I boss her.
BEHAR: OK. Let`s just talk about Kim for one more second, because I know she just got the rock. And this is the end. Are you guys -- is it your goal to marry everyone in the NBA? Is that it?
KARDASHIAN: Everyone. That`s my personal goal. That`s why I haven`t gotten married to Scott yet because I`m waiting for any NBA player who could ask me to marry them.
(LAUGHTER)
ODOM: ODOM: It`s true.
KARDASHIAN: Which team is going to be next?
ODOM: It`s true.
BEHAR: But your sister has a prenup, I found out.
ODOM: Honey, we all have prenups.
BEHAR: OK, do you think that that takes the romance out of the marriage or not?
ODOM: No.
KARDASHIAN: I think you have to have a prenup.
BEHAR: Spoken like a good businesswoman.
KARDASHIAN: Yes. It`s mandatory.
ODOM: And we own so many businesses, as a family we own them. Like I can`t do that to my sisters and vice versa. Like if God forbid something were to happen, you have to protect yourselves. It`s just the world you live in.
BEHAR: I agree with you, I agree. It`s not the most romantic thing. Like when I first got married, I would never think of doing it. We had nothing at that point. So it didn`t matter. We had nothing to really get each other for.
KARDASHIAN: You can also just let the lawyers handle it and not make it, you know, keep the romance alive.
BEHAR: Your sister`s worth $35 million. And he`s worth $8 million. Hello, prenup.
KARDASHIAN: Hello.
ODOM: Hello.
BEHAR: One more question about her and then I`ll drop to (ph) Kim. Pregnancy rumors. I heard. What do you know?
ODOM: She`s not pregnant.
BEHAR: She`s not?
ODOM: She`s just -- you know, obviously people want to say --
BEHAR: Just bloated?
ODOM: I guess.
(LAUGHTER)
KARDASHIAN: Don`t you hate that?
ODOM: No, but she`s not pregnant. But I guess she`s bloated. Must be that time of the month, who knows.
BEHAR: It could be. This is the other thing. She wants to change her name to Humphries, I don`t think that`s a good idea.
ODOM: That`s really not going to happen.
BEHAR: Why would you screw around with the branding of the Kardashians when you have got all this money coming in?
ODOM: Exactly.
(CROSSTALK)
KARDASHIAN: Why would you change her name back?
BEHAR: What, say it again?
KARDASHIAN: My mom wants to change her name back to Kardashian.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Oh, Kardashian? But she`s married to Bruce Jenner. So she`s going to take her last husband`s name?
(CROSSTALK)
KARDASHIAN: You`ll see this on our season six.
ODOM: I think of it --
KARDASHIAN: This whole debate went down.
ODOM: Like this, when Bruce was popular she wanted Jenner. Now that Kardashian is popular, she`s going back to Kardashian. Like, you cannot jump ship. And eventually, I told Kourt, if Lamar wins another championship, she`ll change it to Odom. Like she`s so crazy. Like, I`m not down for that.
BEHAR: She`s thinking all the time, how can we make this more profitable?
ODOM: It`s disgusting. I can`t handle it.
BEHAR: I was saying during the commercial before that you don`t look like you`re sisters. They look alike. Are you sure you have the same parents?
ODOM: Absolutely not. I do not know. I don`t think I`m related to these people fully, but we`ll go with it. I like the brand, so hey, let`s keep it up. This empire`s pretty good.
BEHAR: I mean, you`re all cute in different ways. You look more like Kim.
KARDASHIAN: Yes.
BEHAR: Than you do.
KARDASHIAN: She looks like me because I`m the oldest.
ODOM: What does that mean for me? I look like a dog?
BEHAR: No, you`re pretty but you look different pretty. That`s all.
KARDASHIAN: Spoken like a real mother.
BEHAR: Paris Hilton has a reality show now. Competition or not?
ODOM: Oh my God, no.
KARDASHIAN: There`s enough networks for everyone to get their little piece.
ODOM: Oh, really? There`s a million networks and there is a million reality shows. I think it`s fun. Everyone should do one.
BEHAR: There`s only so many hours in the day for reality shows.
ODOM: Well, as long as you don`t take our hour, then we`re fine.
BEHAR: That could happen. All right, we`re going to have more with the Kardashian girls in just a minute. You don`t mind if I call you girls, do you?
ODOM: No.
BEHAR: Because you are grown women.
ODOM: Honey.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: All right, I`m back with Khloe Kardashian Odom and Kourtney Kardashian.
OK, last night on the MTV awards, Reese Witherspoon accepted a lifetime achievement award. She`s only 35 years old. OK, that`s like on MTV, that`s old. It`s like Larry King on CNN. That`s the equivalent. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REESE WITHERSPOON, ACTRESS: I just want to say to all the girls out there, like I know it`s cool to be bad, I get it. All right? It`s cool to be bad. But it`s also possible to make it in Hollywood without a reality show.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: A little dig at your family?
ODOM: I don`t think so.
KARDASHIAN: I don`t know if it`s personal. But she`s right, though. You can make it without a reality show.
BEHAR: She seems to be taking on, I get it, it`s cool to be bad. There`s a lot of these reality shows where people are, you know, acting bad. Your sister had a sex tape, and that was another thing she took on, Paris Hilton, those two. She says it in the speech. Don`t you think she`s giving digs to you girls and what do you say to that? Do you care?
ODOM: Personally I mean, I love her. Personally--
BEHAR: She`s great.
ODOM: I personally don`t care. I think everyone`s entitled to their opinion. I don`t think she`s taking a dig at me or my family. Maybe that`s just me be naive. But I do think -- I do agree with her. I think you don`t have to be a bad girl to be successful and be good, and it doesn`t have to be reality TV. There`s so many other genres that people should indulge in and work on.
But and I am getting -- it is crazy that people feel like the more over top they are and the more outlandish and the more stupid they look on TV, the better the ratings.
KARDASHIAN: I think with us, though, like we`re ourselves and we`re not like trying to do a certain thing to be bad.
(CROSSTALK)
KARDASHIAN: We`re not like let`s be bad so we can have a reality show.
BEHAR: But everybody seems to be down on reality shows right now. Because basically, you know, they`re not really reality shows because they`re edited. As you know, the cameras are rolling, you are going to give it a little more. They`re down on that and they`re down and are saying, Lisa Bloom, this lawyer who comes on this show a lot, she has a book, she`s saying that they`re dumbing down America. Do you agree or no?
ODOM: Oh, I agree.
BEHAR: You do agree?
ODOM: I do agree. I do. But I do think -- I do. I think some of the things that we focus on are so ridiculous. But I also think that it`s crazy when you see some reality shows I like, and I think that they`re good, and others it`s not that I dislike, but I can`t watch an entire marathon because there`s only so many times I can see you getting drunk and getting into a fight. Getting drunk and -- it`s like--
BEHAR: "The Jersey Shore" is what you`re referring to there.
ODOM: No, I mean, there`s a lot of shows that are like that. Not just one show.
KARDASHIAN: I think a lot of shows, too, they like feed them alcohol.
ODOM: On purpose.
KARDASHIAN: You know, on purpose--
BEHAR: To fuel them.
KARDASHIAN: -- the producers to get--
(CROSSTALK)
ODOM: There`s a million shows that do that. They take away all electronics, and social media so all they have is the alcohol.
BEHAR: Well, no matter what you say or do about it and what people say, you cannot argue with success, and your show is a major hit and you girls are loaded. Loaded.
KARDASHIAN: That`s right.
ODOM: Loaded.
BEHAR: And the new season of "Keeping Up with the Kardashians" begins June 12th on E! Thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
