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Joy Behar Page
Casey Anthony Murder Trial; Interview With Ann Coulter
Aired June 09, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW -- blockbuster testimony from Casey Anthony`s brother today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY, BROTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: She told me that she met Zanny. Zanny held Casey down and told her that she was taking Caylee from her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will Lee and other family members` testimony hold the key for the prosecution, or will it still come down to the forensic evidence? And Casey sobs in court as photos of her daughter`s remains are shown to the jury.
Then Joy`s favorite nemesis Ann Coulter is here and they`ll talk about Weinergate.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: It was an emotional day in the Casey Anthony trial today as Casey sobbed when the jury was shown photos of Caylee`s remains. Then later court recessed early because Casey was ill.
Here now with more about what went on in the courtroom are Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor; Ryan Smith, host of "In Session" on TruTV; and Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist and care.com contributor.
Ryan, Casey was ill. What happened? What do you know?
RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION": It was an amazingly emotional day, and after seeing pictures of a skull of Caylee Anthony and duct tape and even shorts of Caylee at that scene, court went into recess. Casey Anthony looked a little bit distracted. She was looking down, not responding to anybody. Then she leaves the courtroom. And then shortly after that Judge Perry comes out and says that court is done for the day because Casey is, quote unquote, "ill". And that`s all we know.
They didn`t tell us anything more. Even told the media, the lawyers didn`t want to be interviewed about this. So it`s this mysterious illness that came. And it wasn`t too long after the shorts of Caylee Anthony were shown as being a part of those remains in that wooded area.
BEHAR: Let`s look at the emotion from Casey as the jury was shown an image of Caylee`s remains. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is this item at the bottom of the photograph?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That would be the front of the skull with the duct tape.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Robi, you`re the shrink here. Are those tears of remorse, do you think, or is she acting? What do you think?
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: It`s hard to know. But what we do know about people who have anti-social personality disorder, they cry for themselves. So if she`s fearful that somehow this case is going in the wrong direction and she`s really in danger of spending her life in prison, she could be crying for herself.
If this somehow was an accident, the possibility of seeing pictures of her daughter in this state is a confrontation with reality that`s really just too much for her to take.
BEHAR: So a personality disorder could not feel remorse?
LUDWIG: Well, people with anti-social personality disorder, that is one of the features, that they don`t feel remorse, they don`t feel --
BEHAR: No empathy.
(CROSSTALK)
LUDWIG: Empathy. But there`s always a range. So you know, whenever you`re making a diagnosis, there`s a range and you have to look at the person. So it`s very possible that now this confrontation with reality, she`s not getting away with anything. And maybe it`s the first time for her.
BEHAR: It`s an interesting term, they don`t feel remorse, they don`t have empathy. All of Nazi Germany was like that -- the whole country.
LUDWIG: Right. Well --
BEHAR: You`re talking about individual now.
LUDWIG: I mean when you see -- in order to murder somebody, it`s not an easy thing to do unless it`s an accident. You kind of have to have no remorse --
BEHAR: It was easy back in the `30s and `40s back in Germany. Ok. Did the jury also cry, Ryan, and what was their reaction to Casey`s tears?
SMITH: You know, Joy, I`ve got to tell you, I was surprised by this. The jury wasn`t really crying. They were focused most of the time on some screens that are right in front of them that show them pictures of the evidence. So this is a jury that is very fixated on what`s going on in court.
In the beginning they were looking at Casey and when she would cry we would see people look at her. Not so much today. They were focused on the evidence. And I really think they are really focused on doing their job rather than on what`s going on with Casey.
BEHAR: Well, we hope so. That`s for sure.
Wendy, how did those tears play to the jury, do you think? Are they going to feel sorry for her now? Or what?
WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, it matters a lot how she reacts. But let me just suggest that her illness is probably something like litigation tactic-itis, you know. That`s kind of how I feel because it`s just a strange moment to finally become ill. She already knew her child was dead. She knew she was found in a swamp. She knew all this stuff in the past. She didn`t get ill.
I think this is all drama put up by the defense to make her look like she has a conscience and she`s so distraught she`s actually ill. And the jury`s going to go oh, she mustn`t have done it because if she was so conscienceless that she could have killed her child she couldn`t possibly be sobbing for real, much less getting ill.
And the judge would never say she was ill unless she was really ill. They don`t realize how these tricks work.
BEHAR: I mean one could say, you know, that what you said, if it was an accident she is feeling -- but there`s all that testimony about how she was partying all those days that the child was missing. So it`s really hard to swallow that this is real.
LUDWIG: Right. And also, it could be a manipulation just because that`s how she is. So it`s really hard to know and tell.
BEHAR: So the tears were score for which side, Wendy?
MURPHY: You know, I think it depends who the jury is. It wouldn`t score any points with me. I`d probably think less of her for being dramatic as a -- in terms of how she`s exploiting her child`s bones. I`d use it against her. But that`s me. I`m very cynical. I`m very suspicious.
BEHAR: I hear you.
MURPHY: Juries are inclined to think she didn`t do it and they feel bad for her. They probably now feel a little bit worse for her.
BEHAR: Ok. Ryan, the photos were so graphic today that I understand that Casey`s parents left the courtroom. What do you know about all that?
SMITH: That`s absolutely true. The judge came out before these photos were even shown, and he said, look, anybody who`s going to have an emotional response to this, leave the courtroom now. Because he doesn`t want the jury to be distracted by what`s going on in the gallery.
So George and Cindy, I think rightfully so, decided not to come in during any of those photos. They didn`t want to see their granddaughter like that. They`d been through so much pain. Their goal was I don`t want to see that part because it`s just too much to bear. So they weren`t there the entire time.
BEHAR: And they played the 911 call in court from when Caylee`s remains were found in the woods. So let`s watch that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we`ve -- this is Orange County Utility and Emergency dispatch. We found a human skull.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my gosh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. We got -- is it a meter reader.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to let you speak right now with the representative from our field services. This is Vinnie with Orange County Utilities.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, Vinnie.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. I`m going to let you speak with Rusty Spear. And everything is recorded. Here he is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you doing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, Rusty.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of my meter readers supposedly has found a skull that he believes is human.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ok. If you watch that, Robi, she`s not crying there.
LUDWIG: Right.
BEHAR: What do you make of that?
LUDWIG: Well, it`s a poverty of emotion. So it`s very possible that she wasn`t feeling the emotions then and maybe it wasn`t pulling on her in the same way. Or again, maybe this is all manipulation and she`s crying for herself. Let`s not forget that.
BEHAR: Well, that goes with the personality disorder.
LUDWIG: Yes. Exactly.
BEHAR: Ryan, how did the jury react to that 911 call?
SMITH: They were again just rapt with attention trying to hear everything that was going on and watching that screen. But Joy, I`ve got to tell you, this is one of the reasons why people struggle with believing Casey Anthony. Because did you hear the dispatcher on the phone saying oh, no, look what happened? She was more upset than Casey was when she was hearing that information in court.
Casey has heard a lot of some of this stuff before. But still, she picks and chooses these moments to be upset, and I think that gets people wondering what is she really thinking? It`s very hard to tell.
BEHAR: Ok, Wendy, how important was that call, that 911 call?
MURPHY: I don`t think it`s particularly important. I mean, how she reacts every day is important on some level. But I`ll tell you something, Joy, the big hole in this case remains, is there really any evidence that Casey herself killed this child?
You know, there`s a lot about her behavior that`s strange. She clearly covered up. I think she knows more than she`s been telling. But let`s say for a minute that somebody else killed the child and Casey knows who did it and she`s covering for them, which is perfectly valid as an idea. Remember, cops offered her some kind of immunity deal early on. She clearly didn`t take it. But if that`s the story --
BEHAR: She didn`t take it.
Murphy: -- then some of her emotions may well be real because she didn`t kill her child, someone else did, and she is beside herself that she`s on trial for a murder she didn`t commit.
BEHAR: Tell me about the immunity offer. I don`t know too much about that. What was that?
MURPHY: It was reported early on in this case that she was offered immunity in exchange for telling more about what happened to Casey -- to Caylee. And reports went away very quickly, and she clearly didn`t take whatever that deal may have been.
BEHAR: Why not? Why not?
MURPHY: She had a -- she must have had a damn good reason.
BEHAR: Ryan, do you have an idea? About that.
MURPHY: Well, Joy, in the beginning they were looking at her and trying to get information about Caylee`s disappearance. Once they thought she was connected to it they started offering her deals. But let me tell you what changed it all -- the pictures that we saw in court today. When they found the remains and they found duct tape on some of those remains, the idea of making a deal with her went out the window. That`s when they decided to go for the death penalty.
That`s why those remains are so important, because you`ve got a baby`s skull with duct tape on it. That`s the kind of thing that a prosecutor cannot look away from when they have the death penalty available to them. They have to enforce that because it`s --
MURPHY: I disagree. I disagree.
BEHAR: Go ahead.
MURPHY: I don`t think that duct tape proves that she did anything. It does prove somebody put duct tape --
SMITH: I`m not saying it did.
Murphy: -- on the child`s mouth but it doesn`t change their case so it doesn`t change why they might have offered her immunity or taken it away. It doesn`t make the case more provable against Casey at all.
SMITH: I am not saying that that`s why, that she is guilty or anything like that. I`m saying that they believe they had a circumstantial case against her and once they found the remains the fact is that they elevated the charges and a lot us believe that`s because they thought they had a good case already and then they saw this and it was much more gruesome than they initially believed --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Ok, Robi.
SMITH: -- s I`m not saying that they -- yes, go ahead.
ROBI LUDWIG: I was just, I mean, it`s hard for me to imagine that Casey would have some type of loyalty to this phantom other person who could have killed her daughter when she`s --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes, that`s a stretch.
LUDWIG: -- on the hot seat?
BEHAR: That`s a stretch.
LUDWIG: I mean come on. That doesn`t seem in sync with what we know about her.
(CROSSTALK)
WENDY MURPHY: Don`t -- no, listen, keep your mind open here because - -
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Ok.
MURPHY: -- there`s good evidence in this case --
BEHAR: Ok, Wendy.
MURPHY: There`s good evidence in this case, I mean I`m just saying, everybody`s -- everybody`s got their idea. But we`re forgetting two things.
Number one, people didn`t see Caylee with Casey after the 16th, nor did Casey have the car where the body ended up dead. Who had the car? Who had Caylee? Why aren`t we asking that question? Why?
BEHAR: But Wendy, you`re the one who says those are crocodile tears. You`re the one -- we need -- we need to keep an open mind. So do you.
MURPHY: All right, no and -- listen, the fact that she`s on trial doesn`t mean she won`t use litigation tactics to win her freedom. That still doesn`t tell us the truth about what happened. We have to keep our eyes wide open.
BEHAR: Ok.
MURPHY: She may not have killed this child.
BEHAR: Ok. You`re right. You`re right. Thanks, everybody. More on the Casey Anthony trial when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back talking about the Casey Anthony trial with psychotherapist Robi Ludwig. And joining us is Robert Hirschhorn, attorney and jury consultant.
Now, Casey`s brother, Lee returned to the stand today and described more of Casey`s lies. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: She told me that she met Zanny, who was her nanny, as well as Zanny`s sister and her children at Jay Blanchard Park, which is here in Orlando. And during that meeting Zanny held Casey down and told her that she was taking Caylee from her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ok. She`s kind of a colorful liar. And she calls the nanny Zanny.
LUDWIG: Yes. Yes, so I mean, it`s like, that`s not even a really good lie. But people who have anti-social personality disorder --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
LUDWIG: -- that is a prominent feature. The lying, the seducing and when you think about it, lying helps you get what you want in the short term. And people with this disorder think about short-term gratification, getting what they want. And lying is a way to get over on people.
BEHAR: Well, we`re also saying that if the mother --
(CROSSTALK)
ROBERT HIRSCHHORN, ATTORNEY: But Joy -- Joy --
BEHAR: Wait, one second. If the mother is very controlling, wouldn`t that sort of make her a bigger liar? Because when someone`s controlling you, you just say anything to get away from them.
LUDWIG: Well, that could contribute.
BEHAR: Yes.
LUDWIG: But I don`t think it would turn somebody into being this pathological --
BEHAR: I see.
LUDWIG: -- turning into a pathological liar.
BEHAR: No, this is on another level.
LUDWIG: But yes, she was responding to her environment.
BEHAR: Yes, right. Ok Robert, what did you want to say?
HIRSCHHORN: Well, two things. First, I`m honored on to be on your show. And I`m going to, on behalf of your millions of fans, we want to say you that totally rock, Joy. So thank you.
BEHAR: Ok. I`ll send the check tomorrow morning.
HIRSCHHORN: No check necessary. You`re awesome.
So look, so the sister says this to him. Why doesn`t he say something to the father? I mean why doesn`t the -- the brother react to this in some way? I mean, we can sit around and say she`s a pathological liar, and I think there is no doubt that she does that for manipulation.
But the point is this case is about two things. How did this child die, and who did it? And that`s what ought to be the focus, those two things.
LUDWIG: I -- yes.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: But there`s a lot of other things around it. Like first Casey says that she left Caylee at the apartment building. That was the first thing. Then the defense says that Caylee drowned. Now we hear that the nanny forcibly kidnapped Caylee. Doesn`t this kill the defense, Robert?
HIRSCHHORN: I don`t think so.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well, what are we supposed to make of all this? What is the jury --
(CROSSTALK)
HIRSCHHORN: She`s not a good liar.
BEHAR: Tell me what the jury is going to make of all that.
HIRSCHHORN: I`ll tell you what they`re going to make of it.
BEHAR: Ok.
HIRSCHHORN: She`s a world-class liar. That doesn`t necessarily translate into, Joy, that she is a cold-blooded killer. That requires evidence. The whole idea here is -- and that`s why I was particularly unhappy about today. The prosecution had the right to do what they did today by showing those photographs.
All that was designed to do was to inflame the minds of the jury. It doesn`t answer the two central questions, Joy. Who did this, and how?
BEHAR: Ok. Now, what about -- you`re good on the lying, Robi. So now all this lying leads to a pathological personality --
(CROSSTALK)
LUDWIG: Right.
BEHAR: -- a character disorder, personality disorder.
So maybe they can now make the connection between what she does and the abuse by the father, the alleged abuse by her father. Maybe that could work.
LUDWIG: Yes, but still, does that excuse -- I mean, a lot of people have really horrible childhoods. And that doesn`t excuse somebody from in the moment --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
LUDWIG: -- of killing somebody.
BEHAR: No, we`re not talking about the killing.
LUDWIG: Ok.
BEHAR: Just the lying -- just the lying and the controlling mother.
LUDWIG: Well, I mean, I think it makes her look like she has something to hide. And then you look at all of the other pictures --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
LUDWIG: -- of her looking happy. We see more of a profile of somebody who`s really selfish and self-centered.
BEHAR: Right.
LUDWIG: Not somebody who`s covering for somebody else or --
BEHAR: Ok, that leads me to this question then, Robert. The lies are so complex, and she seems so crazy, this girl. Wouldn`t an insanity plea do just as well? Why not try that?
HIRSCHHORN: You know, Joy, that`s -- yes. Well, first, it`s too late now because you have to make those declarations, you have to put the prosecution on notice long before that you intend to raise an insanity defense and so the prosecution can get their own experts.
LUDWIG: It wouldn`t work.
HIRSCHHORN: Look her -- it wouldn`t work. Robi is exactly right. Hey, Joy, you`ve got two -- you`ve got a Rob and a Robi. It wouldn`t work, and the reason is because there`s too many things that she did afterwards - -
(CROSSTALK)
LUDWIG: Right.
HIRSCHHORN: -- the partying and the tattoos.
BEHAR: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
LUDWIG: And also, I mean, you can be mentally ill and not insane at the moment of the crime. At the moment of the crime do you not know the difference between right and wrong? That`s what qualifies for an insanity defense.
BEHAR: Right. I see.
LUDWIG: Not for being crazy. Because then you know, they`d all be, you know.
BEHAR: Ok.
HIRSCHHORN: That`s why the idea that Caylee drowned, that was an interesting choice.
BEHAR: Ok. Hold on. We`ll be back with just a little more in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back talking about the Casey Anthony trial. Now, Lee Anthony was the brother, wasn`t done. He had more to say about Casey`s alleged lies. I have to say that. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did your sister tell you the reason for Caylee being taken was?
ANTHONY: In Zanny`s opinion Casey was not being a good mother to Caylee or wouldn`t be a good mother for Caylee and she was taking her -- taking Caylee from her to teach her a lesson.
See, it`s interesting because her actual mother, Cindy, the real mother, not the made-up Zanny mother, also said she was an unfit mother. And now she`s saying it --
LUDWIG: Well, I think in the lie is a fantasy, right? That she`s basically admitting somebody else thinks that she`s not a good mother. And it`s almost like an informal fantasy adoption. A nanny who is mothering is going to take her daughter away. She won`t be in her family. So it won`t be a conflict.
BEHAR: Yes.
LUDWIG: I mean, I think in there is describing a wish and a little bit of reality there. Only the story isn`t true, but it`s reflecting --
BEHAR: But if she was wishing that Zanny was her mother, let`s say, why not say that Zanny said she was a good mother? Why would she say that -- imply that Zanny thought she was a bad mother? That`s the part I don`t get.
LUDWIG: It sounds like she`s admitting -- well, that was the excuse. She couldn`t think of any other lie, right? Why else would you take a child from their mother? They`re a bad mother. She`s saying she`s a bad mother and she wanted to give this child to a good mother. That`s what the lie-fantasy is saying.
BEHAR: Now Robert, will Lee and other family members` testimony hold the key for the prosecution, or will it still come down to the forensic evidence? I know your answer.
HIRSCHHORN: I think -- Joy, it`s got to be the forensics.
BEHAR: Right.
HIRSCHHORN: We`re talking about a death penalty case here. Look, every murder is horrible. The only thing that could be worse than a horrible murder is somebody wrongfully convicted of something that bad. So the idea is that before a jury convicts a person of murder, let alone first-degree murder, they`re going to want to dot all the i`s and cross all the t`s. And that`s why I think the forensics are so critically important in this case.
BEHAR: Another interesting thing today was Jose Baez talking about the duct tape on Caylee`s remains. Let`s watch that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`d like to draw your attention to the duct tape area. Can you draw a circle around the duct tape? Now, is it fair to say, Investigator Welch, that the duct tape is somewhat in the air?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: How important is the duct tape now, Robert, in this case?
HIRSCHHORN: Yes, well, that`s the link that the prosecution needs. What the prosecution is trying to do is build a house, one brick at a time. So it`s going to be the house of conviction. And the duct tape is their main foundation because they`re going to use that to show this was a premeditated crime, and that`s what you need in order to convict somebody of this charge.
But you know, Joy, here`s what`s interesting. Remember all that talk about the Internet search for chloroform?
BEHAR: Yes.
HIRSCHHORN: That was done three -- that was done three months earlier. You know, one of the questions I have, and maybe --
BEHAR: Three months earlier from -- three months earlier --
HIRSCHHORN: From when --
BEHAR: From what?
HIRSCHHORN: In other words, the internet searches were in March. And then Caylee goes missing in June.
BEHAR: So? You`re planning. You`re planning.
LUDWIG: She used it as an informal babysitter. And maybe it went awry.
HIRSCHHORN: But the question, Joy, is what was the tipping point? What put her over the edge?
BEHAR: Ok.
LUDWIG: If there was a tipping point.
BEHAR: We`re covering this case every day. So maybe we`ll find out some truth tomorrow.
Thanks, guys, we`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: In her new book, Ann Coulter likens liberals to an angry mob trampling all over the countryside. That`s funny. Last time I saw a mob of liberals they were in Woodstock and they were passed out in the grass. The book is called "Demonic: How the Liberal Mob is Endangering America." And Ann Coulter joins me now. So the mob, huh?
ANN COULTER, AUTHOR: The mob.
BEHAR: The demonic liberals. Well, you know, I`m Italian and I`m a liberal. Does that mean I belong to two mobs?
COULTER: Well, that`s why I didn`t call the book "Mob." It took me forever to come up with the title, because "Mob" would really be a great title. The other great title I really wanted for it because I start with a scene from the Bible where Jesus drives the demons out of -- out of a possessed man, and he says, Jesus says to the possessed man, what is your name? Speaking to the demon. And the demon responds, my name is Legion. So Legion would have been a great title, but I thought only Christians would understand that.
BEHAR: Legion.
COULTER: And "Mob" would sound like I`m talking about the mob.
BEHAR: No, Legion sounds like you`re talking about the American Legion.
COULTER: Right. Right. French Foreign Legion.
BEHAR: Yes.
COULTER: The idea is that liberals are a mob, they have the psychological characteristics of the mob --
BEHAR: How?
COULTER: Sometimes launching out into actual literal mobs. And mobs are always bad things.
BEHAR: But you know, I said to you when you were on "The View" the other day that the Tea Party is more of a mob than the liberals.
COULTER: No.
BEHAR: I don`t see the mob. You know, I --
COULTER: Well, look, just today you had -- was it today or yesterday? The union protesters in Wisconsin are disrupting Special Olympics so that they can protest the Republican governor.
BEHAR: I see. So a mob to you is a group of protesters.
COULTER: No, no, no, no. The first like third of the book is on the psychological mob. And that more has to do with how liberals argue, how they easily accept contradictions, how they create messiahs -- Obama, Clinton, JFK, RFK --
BEHAR: What about the Republican Party? They seem to create saints. Ronald Reagan.
COULTER: The closest one, which is the one I looked at, and this is more of a whitewashed memories now, would be Ronald Reagan. But A, it`s based on his record, not before he`s even done anything and just says hope and change, and oh, I`m having sex dreams about him.
BEHAR: But you know, I think that`s so unfair -- so unfair to Obama because Obama came in with a big problem from the Bush years. And you have to admit it. Admit it.
COULTER: No, but what I`m saying --
BEHAR: Admit it, Ann. Come on. Admit it.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Just admit that one thing and I`ll let you talk the rest of the time.
COULTER: No, because you`re going to trick me into talking about the economy again, and once again we`ll drive away the viewers.
BEHAR: I don`t want to talk about the economy. It`s too boring.
COULTER: But that`s not what I`m talking about, whether he inherited a problem. What I`m saying is, he hadn`t done anything yet. The love for Reagan, to the extent you`d call it love, is based on an eight-year record, not on a presidential campaign, point one.
But point two, as I describe in the book, I went through Lexis Nexis throughout the eight years of the Reagan administration. Reagan wasn`t even the most popular conservative his first year in office. His favorite newspaper, my newspaper, "Human Events," was attacking him so much that the "Washington Post" reported that Reagan met the editors and said, well, I`m still reading you guys but I`m liking it a lot less.
(CROSSTALK)
COULTER: Liberals drink Obama`s bathwater.
BEHAR: That`s so ridiculous.
COULTER: There have been articles about how women are having sex dreams about Bill Clinton. They are having -- in the "New York Times," Judith Warner, having sex dreams about Obama. And don`t act surprised by that.
BEHAR: So what? So what`s wrong with that?
COULTER: I promise you I am not having sex dreams about Dwight Eisenhower.
BEHAR: Yes, but I had them about President Taft.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: You know how fat he was, President Taft? They had to make a special bathtub for him. Did you know that?
COULTER: Yes, I did.
BEHAR: You don`t want any fat guys in the White House.
COULTER: No, no, no, it`s part of what makes me think that a Chris Christie 2012 presidency could --
BEHAR: I know you love him, don`t you?
COULTER: Yes, I do.
BEHAR: I asked you on "The View --"
COULTER: He could use the Taft bathtub.
BEHAR: I asked you on "The View" if you were a chubby chaser because you love Christie so much. But you know, New Jersey`s starting to turn on him. He cut the education budget so severely. What, is he going to have Snooki as secretary of state when he`s president? Come on, nobody will be able to read anymore in New Jersey.
COULTER: He`s not going to have Snooki as the secretary of state. That is a mob technique of making up some story that has nothing to do with the facts.
BEHAR: Wait a second. As if you don`t. Give me a god -- give me a break here.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You make up so many things in this book. You make up so many things--
COULTER: Like what?
BEHAR: I`m plugging it while I`m yelling at you.
COULTER: Thank you. Good work.
BEHAR: That`s the kind of girl I am. I`m so nice.
COULTER: Thank you.
BEHAR: I mean, other things I found (ph) out (ph). Tea Party violence.
COULTER: Right.
BEHAR: A brick was thrown through the window of the district office of Democratic Representative Louise Slaughter in Niagara Falls.
COULTER: I remember that. They don`t know who did it.
BEHAR: Oh, who did it. Not the Democrats. Not the liberals. She`s a Democrat.
COULTER: OK, but in the cases I give of liberals, for example, biting off a finger of a Tea Partier, there are eyewitnesses, they know who we`re looking for. When Kenneth Gladmey (ph) was beaten up at the Tea Party in St. Louis, they were six arrests. They were all SEIU guys. Just because a Democrat has a brick thrown through a window, there are a lot of bricks thrown through Republican congressional windows.
BEHAR: This is one of my favorites, though.
COULTER: We need a suspect or an actual arrest.
BEHAR: OK. Whatever. This is good. Representative James Clyburn said he received a fax with an image of a noose. I thought it said moose. I thought Sarah Palin must have sent it. But it says noose. That wasn`t nice. Somebody cut the gas line --
COULTER: But you don`t know who did it.
BEHAR: Oh, it`s all around the same time that they were protesting Obamacare.
COULTER: Oddly enough they`ve never actually traced such an attack back --
BEHAR: Oh, if it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck --
COULTER: No, no, no, no. In fact, I would say after all of the many, many false accusations of racism from Tawanna Brawley up to Duke lacrosse to claims that conservatives were yelling the N word 15 times at Democrats, all of them turning out to be false, I don`t believe the noose was sent by a conservative. I think you start with the presumption these days that the racist act is a hoax, and then, you know, if you produce proof, I`ll change my mind.
BEHAR: The thing that you do, Ann, is that you find what will support your argument and then you write a book about it.
COULTER: Well, of course I find what supports my argument.
BEHAR: You don`t have two points of view on the situation. No, you do not.
COULTER: No, I disagree. Look, I told you, I considered your point, which I think is the best point that can be made of whom conservatives would at all come close to worshiping like a messiah the way liberals worship Clinton, Obama, Hillary --
BEHAR: But it`s such a--
COULTER: I looked at it. I went through -- look, it takes me a week to go through eight years of Nexis to see how Reagan was being written about. And it`s simply not true. He was not treated as some sort of idol. It was always conservatives angry at him.
BEHAR: So it`s after the fact he`s being canonized now.
COULTER: Not that much.
BEHAR: Oh, come on, you cannot turn on a conservative personality (ph) on television without them quoting Ronald Reagan did this, did this, and did this. Even his son doesn`t canonize him the way Fox TV does.
COULTER: Look, some conservatives may have some mob attributes in a small way.
BEHAR: Oh, boy, what a concession.
COULTER: No, no, no, no. But like I say, we admire him for his record. It`s not that we want to have sex with him or drink his bathwater. And the other point is often Reagan is brought up because you`re contrasting him with the candidates we`re dealing with now.
BEHAR: This other thing --
COULTER: And it`s to say --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: This other thing you said about Obama, people want to sleep him and President Clinton. Who would you rather? President Clinton or Mitch McConnell? Tell the truth.
COULTER: I actually think that -- I`ve never understood the thing with Bill Clinton. I think he is a butterball--
BEHAR: So you`d actually rather sleep with Mitch McConnell?
COULTER: No, that isn`t my choice.
(CROSSTALK)
COULTER: The two that I think are about the same are Newt Gingrich and Bill Clinton. I find them equally unsexual.
BEHAR: Oh, no. Wait a second.
COULTER: I find each of them saltpeter.
BEHAR: Newt Gingrich looks like Chucky.
COULTER: Yes, as does chubby Bill Clinton, whose greatest moments on the football field involved a saxophone. He was locked in his gym locker throughout high school. Those are always the politicians who cheat, by the way.
BEHAR: No, but Clinton has a certain side about him that`s kind of sexy. I can see it.
COULTER: Oh, and you told me you don`t create messiahs.
BEHAR: No, he`s not a messiah. He`s just a sex object.
COULTER: I promise you, no conservative would say that even about Reagan. And he was a movie star.
BEHAR: Well, he wasn`t that sexy though.
COULTER: My point is being proved.
BEHAR: I thought George Bush Jr. had some sex appeal. How do you like that? Stopped in her tracks.
COULTER: I promise you conservatives were not having sex dreams about him.
BEHAR: Well, maybe I do. You say that liberals belittle their opponents. But then you --
COULTER: No, no.
BEHAR: Yes, that`s what you say.
COULTER: No, I don`t. Because I belittle my opponents. I promise you I`ll cop to that. I ridicule them. No, what I say, and it`s not me, I`m ghosting Gustave Le Bon, the father of groupthink, describing--
BEHAR: Who?
COULTER: Gustave Le Bon.
BEHAR: Did you date him?
COULTER: He wrote this in 1896, and I`m old but I`m not that old. No, when he goes through -- that`s the first like third of the book, using his description of groupthink characteristics, the mob psychology, and comparing it to today`s liberals.
No, what he says is a mob will very quickly go from infatuation to hatred. They turn their leaders into messiahs. And they turn those they disagree with into enemies. That`s not -- you don`t belittle an enemy. You create hatred for an enemy.
BEHAR: I guess I see a mobster like Sharron Angle to me was a mobster. She`s provocative. She will cause a mob to--
COULTER: Sharron Angle, like so many things that get talked about in the mainstream media, I`m trying to think how to put this, Sharron Angle --
BEHAR: You know what she did? Let me tell you what she did to me.
COULTER: Wait.
(CROSSTALK)
COULTER: This point will be interesting to you. Sharron Angle, Sarah Palin, and the birthers are talked about more on the liberal networks than on the conservative networks.
BEHAR: Because they don`t want to go there on the conservative networks because they know they`re talking about some mental midgets over there.
COULTER: Whereas you all -- you all dis the great Chris Christie, ignore him, talk about that one little helicopter thing.
BEHAR: Oh, you mean -- where is he now, at a buffet? OK. Her book is called "Demonic: How the Liberals" -- that was wrong of me.
COULTER: I hope so.
BEHAR: I take it back. "The Liberal Mob is Endangering America." How about Ann Coulter is endangering America? We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: The world has seen some great romances. Romeo and Juliet. Anthony and Cleopatra. The Captain and Tennile. And now we have Ice-T and Coco. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COCO, STAR, "ICE LOVES COCO" See, you did like those wedding gowns then.
ICE-T, RAPPER/ACTOR: I like you. A gown has nothing to do with it, really. You know what I`m saying? I don`t really need a gown. I love you. But think about this. Maybe it`s time for us -- for us to renew our vows.
COCO: Aw. Honey.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: The legendary rapper and his wife, Coco, are starring in a new reality series on E! "Ice Loves Coco," and they`re here today to talk about it.
ICE-T: Thanks for having us.
BEHAR: I like that mood music behind. Who decided on that?
ICE-T: You know, they shoot it and then they put the music with it. And I love -- I told the producers, I said whoever`s doing the music, they`re on point. They`re on point. Good music.
BEHAR: But you two, you`ve been together for 10 years. Right?
ICE-T: Yes.
BEHAR: And you`ve only spent one day apart.
ICE-T: One night.
BEHAR: Even Siamese twins don`t do that. What happened that one night?
COCO: Well, I was trying not to break the streak. Believe me. I wasn`t trying to break that record, but my sister had twins. And I had to go fly to Arizona because, you know, I got to support her. You know, that`s my sister. So I had a conversation about that. He was actually on the set of "Law & Order," so he didn`t leave with me. Usually he does come with me.
ICE-T: I could see it in her eyes, she wanted to go but she didn`t. I`m like go ahead, this is serious business.
BEHAR: So what happens if you separate for a couple of days? What`s going to happen? Will you be upset with each other?
ICE-T: I`ll probably implode and just disintegrate or something like that.
COCO: Oh, God, please.
BEHAR: See, I used to be like that with my guy, and then I discovered scrabble on the iPad. So -- but I think it`s charming. But what will happen if you`re not together for a week, let`s say?
ICE-T: We`ll probably -- first thing would happen is all my businesses would fall apart.
BEHAR: Why?
ICE-T: Because Coco --
COCO: We share one phone. Let`s just say that. We have one phone. I answer the phone calls.
ICE-T: She`s kind of like Sharon Osbourne in my life. You know, I was watching "The Osbournes" before we got together, and I was like, wow, would Ozzy really have what he has without Sharon? And I was really impressed with her.
BEHAR: She took care of him when he was on the decline.
ICE-T: Yes. And when I met with Coco, Coco, she was like that type of a woman, and she slid right into that position. So a week away, none of my phone calls -- she wouldn`t -- I`d probably go -- lose a lot of money because she handles --
BEHAR: She handles the business.
COCO: I do.
ICE-T: She handles the business, yes.
BEHAR: It`s interesting your story, because what, were a gang leader or gang member?
ICE-T: I actually wasn`t even in a gang. I was an affiliate of the gangs in Los Angeles, the Crips. And you know, I was hustling. I robbed banks. I`d done jewelry store robberies.
BEHAR: Really? How much time did you do?
ICE-T: I never got caught.
BEHAR: Well, then you`re confessing today. Is there a statute of limitations?
ICE-T: Yes. Seven years. Seven years.
BEHAR: You did?
ICE-T: No. That`s the statute of limitations.
BEHAR: Seven years?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: So you can say whatever --
ICE-T: You can say -- you can speak on anything as long as nobody got seriously hurt.
BEHAR: But it`s interesting to watch you now because you`re such a sweetheart and a little softy, especially with your wife and everything --
COCO: I got that out of him. I don`t think if I were to get with him, you wouldn`t have seen that side. He`s always been kind of hardcore.
BEHAR: When he wrote "Cop Killer," which I prefer the Tony Bennett version, but still. When he wrote "Cop Killer," was he in the gang thing, in the robberies? No.
ICE-T: No, that was long after that.
BEHAR: So what provoked all that rage? I was looking at the lyrics here. It`s very, very enraged.
ICE-T: Well, what happened was I was in the recording studio with my friend, and he came in saying -- he came into the studio singing "Psycho Killer" by the Talking Heads.
BEHAR: Oh, yes, that`s a great tune.
ICE-T: And at the time it was prior to the Rodney King incident. And he made the comment, he said, man, we need a cop killer right now, because the cops are out of control. If somebody would just kill one of these cops, they`d stop all this harassment. So I just started to think about that and I started to make the song.
I`m not a cop killer. I sung about a cop killer. I played the part of a guy that went on a rage because of police brutality.
BEHAR: It`s ironic that you play a cop on "SVU," isn`t it?
ICE-T: Yes. I tell people, I`ve never been a cop hater. When I was breaking the law, the cops were the opponent. I didn`t dislike them. I just thought I was smarter than them. But now I stopped breaking the law, paid my taxes, and I need them to watch my car.
BEHAR: You`re an upstanding citizen now.
ICE-T: Exactly. Exactly.
BEHAR: I want to ask you, since you two seem to understand how to stay married in the business, there`s a lot of sex scandals these days. You must be informed on Weinergate and Schwarzenegger, and John Edwards is being indicted, et cetera.
ICE-T: Yes.
BEHAR: What do you make of all that?
ICE-T: Well, No. 1, you`ve got to understand that we`re in a technological world now, so sneaking around and things like that --
COCO: That can`t happen anymore.
ICE-T: You can`t do that anymore. If you`re going to get married, you`d better plan on being monogamous and staying home. I mean, you know, you could tell your boy, yo, I`m with Ice, and his wife is like saying I`m looking at a live feed of you from the strip club. You know? It`s like you can`t -- every place you go. If we`re at a restaurant and I get up and I walk to the bathroom, cameramen, where`s Coco? Where`s Coco? Who are you with? They`re running back to the table.
BEHAR: But -- when we come back after this break, I would like you to explain to me the psychology of someone who knows all that and still goes out there and puts his whole career on -- in a dangerous --
ICE-T: There`s a simple word for that. There`s a simple word for that.
BEHAR: Hold it for the next segment. We`ll be right back with Ice-T and Coco in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Ice-T and Coco, who have a new reality show about their marriage. So we were saying that somebody like Weiner should know better because everything is out there.
ICE-T: Everything.
BEHAR: So what is the word you have for someone like that?
ICE-T: Insane.
BEHAR: Insane.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: OK.
ICE-T: I mean -- in the hood, we`ll say, if you do it and you know it`s stupid, we call it stuck on stupid. That means if you keep doing it. But you`ve got to be crazy to think that you`re going to put something on the Internet, especially if you`re a politician, and it is not going to get out.
BEHAR: What do you think of the guy who actually unleashed this and the women who put this out there. Those people are culpable, too, aren`t they?
COCO: I don`t know the whole story, but I mean, I got part of it. My whole thing is he took the picture and his family pictures are in the background.
BEHAR: Yes, that was weird.
COCO: Now, that`s insane.
BEHAR: That`s called narcissism. That`s what that is.
COCO: But his name is Weiner, so maybe he`s trying to live up to his name.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It is an unfortunate name for somebody who takes pictures of his genitalia. I`m going to tell you that. But the sexting, that`s what goes on, even Tiger Woods was -- a lot of that was going on with him.
COCO: Right.
BEHAR: Do you think that`s cheating, Ice?
ICE-T: Yes.
COCO: I think it is.
BEHAR: You do. Even if there is no sex involved, actual sex?
COCO: Yes.
ICE-T: If you`re married, OK, let`s separate the words, single and married. If you`re single, that means you can do what you want to do. You know, there are going to be no ramifications. You might lose your girlfriend, OK? But if you`re married, you shouldn`t be flirting with other people. Period.
BEHAR: So flirting is out, too.
ICE-T: Flirting is out.
BEHAR: That`s emotional cheating, they call that, I guess.
ICE-T: Yes.
COCO: Because they`re trying to get something out of it. Sexting, you`re hoping to get sex eventually, you know?
BEHAR: Well, maybe not. Maybe it`s enough to have that little fantasy thing going on. You know?
ICE-T: Well, then get permission.
BEHAR: And maybe he wasn`t planning on going any further. We don`t know.
ICE-T: Well, then get permission.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Get permission from whom? Your wife?
ICE-T: Your spouse, yes.
BEHAR: Oh, like she`s going to give permission.
ICE-T: Well, there--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: That`s the point. If you can`t ask your wife for permission, then you shouldn`t be doing it.
ICE-T: If she says I`m not going to give you any sex, go on the net and just have fun, as long as you don`t do anything, well then maybe you`re getting her out of a job she doesn`t want to do anymore.
BEHAR: I know that this couldn`t possibly happen to you two. But what if you caught him, before we go, cheating or sexting, what would you do to him? Would you Bobbitt-ize him?
COCO: No, no, I`m not -- you know, I`m kind of the person -- I know this might seem really way out -- but I let things slide, honestly. I`m really mad over things.
BEHAR: So you would get over it.
COCO: I`d get over it.
BEHAR: She`s sticking by her man right now.
COCO: Yes. I mean, there has to be something behind it. Obviously if you went farther than that, then I am not going to be with you. You want to be with somebody else, OK, then I don`t need to even use up my energy. I`m going to be moving on to the next person, because I don`t need to stay with you. But there`s something behind that. You know? So I believe, don`t you, because we were talking about this all the time.
ICE-T: You know, she`d be terribly hurt, and that`s not a good thing to do. You don`t want to do that to your wife.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It`s not a pretty picture. Anyway, but "Ice Loves Coco" is a pretty picture and it premieres Sunday night at 10:30 on the E! channel. Right?
ICE-T: Yes.
BEHAR: Thank you all for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
