Return to Transcripts main page
Joy Behar Page
Nancy Grace on Casey Trial; Casey`s Lawyer: Over His Head?; Interview With Larry King
Aired June 10, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE Joy BEHAR SHOW, with the Casey Anthony trial getting more complex by the day, HLN`s Nancy Grace is here to give Joy some straight talk on the case.
Then, Larry King weighs in on Weinergate. Has tabloid news gotten out of control.
Plus the Duggars are here -- 20 of them in fact. We`ll try to get them all onset without violating any fire codes.
That and more starting right now and more.
BEHAR: The Casey Anthony murder trial has been going on for weeks now. And nobody has been more on the case, literally, than HLN`s own Nancy Grace. And she`s with me here now. And I appreciate you doing this, Nancy.
And I would have to ask you, are you a little surprised by how much public interest there is in this particular case? I mean everybody is following it on HLN.
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST, "NANCY GRACE: Joy, I`m really not because the moment I first saw Caylee Anthony, I think that I along with the public fell in love with her. She`s not only beautiful on the outside but on the inside as well.
And the whole thing plays out like a Greek tragedy, Joy. You`ve got the mother, the grandmother, and the tiny girl. It`s a love-hate relationship that`s played out and culminated in the murder of little Caylee.
BEHAR: That`s right.
Now, a lot has happened in court this week. You have skull pictures have been revealed and scientists testified on the chloroform in the car. Chloroform on the Internet searches are revealed, searches for neck breaking, death inhalation, internal bleeding, et cetera. And also this odor can was discussed and the cadaver -- I mean, which of these things do you think is the most important? Is it -- are all of those things going to make the case for the prosecution, or not?
GRACE: You know what? The way that you described it is exactly the way the jury is going to take it in, Joy. This is a circumstantial case. In other words, there`s not a eyewitness to what happened. Every piece of circumstantial evidence comes together. You don`t take one piece by itself.
But you`re right, this was a blockbuster week. I think that the single most important evidence is, one, the hair. Belonging to Caylee with a death band around the root of it. A death band occurs when a body starts to decompose. It`s postmortem. Her hair, Caylee`s hair, was found in tot mom`s trunk.
Between that and the computer searches attributed to tot mom by the state, searches that you just described. And you know, you knew them by heart, just like that jury will, the things that stick in your mind, inhalation, how to make chloroform. She visited that site 84 times, Joy.
BEHAR: Right.
GRACE: Not only that, Joy, she bookmarked a lot of these sites, like how to make chloroform, neck breaking, ruptured spleen, meningeal artery in your brain. Sort of like she was trying to get back whatever is convenient to her to look this up.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Go ahead.
GRACE: -- makes them it so important is they were back in march, which could show premeditation to a June murder.
BEHAR: So you don`t allow for any possibility that somebody else in the house could have been Googling all this stuff. The father is a policeman, the mother was a nurse. It`s possible, no?
GRACE: I think that anything is possible Joy. I think it`s possible that little green men came down from Mars and did the deed themselves. Yes, it`s possible. I haven`t ruled out UFOs, have you?
But the question is, not is it possible but is it probable. This is what we know. On the most damning day of computer searches, George and Cindy Anthony were not home. Lee Anthony does not live there. Could he have come home one afternoon and broken in the kitchen window or used his key just to use the family computer? Sure, I guess he could.
BEHAR: Right.
GRACE: But we know that tot mom was home that day.
BEHAR: Well, I agree with you that it`s probably -- what you`re saying is probable. But doesn`t it raise reasonable doubt in the mind of the jury, all of this stuff? If you say somebody else was doing it and, you know, and all the stuff that the defense has been throwing out, the abuse allegations and all of that?
GRACE: Well, so far those are just allegations that have been denied by George Anthony. I need to hear some evidence before I decide that George Anthony or Lee Anthony molested tot mom Casey Anthony.
I`ve got to hear evidence Joy that George Anthony forced her to have oral sex at age 8 and then put her on the school bus in the next breath. I`m not just taking that because the defense said it. Nor am I taking it what the state said because they just threw it out there. I want to hear evidence and I saw evidence this week in court.
BEHAR: Well, I know that you need to see evidence. But does the jury in order for the defense to claim reasonable doubt?
GRACE: Absolutely.
BEHAR: Well, maybe. Maybe they feel sorry -- isn`t the purpose of that to just make them feel for sorry -- all right, whatever.
Anyway, Casey was crying yesterday when the jury was shown photos of Caylee`s remains. Do you think she is sincere? Or were those crocodile tears? What do you think?
GRACE: Well, you know, I think they may be sincere tears of regret. Maybe she wishes this had never happened. Maybe -- it`s shocking. You know, you can just -- we`ve all done things that we don`t want to own up to. I have. Everybody has. But when you`re confronted with it, face-to- face with those graphic photos you saw in court.
See, she doesn`t remember Caylee that way. She remembers Caylee alive, the way she left her, according to the state. And to see these jarring photos, which you have so kindly pixilated so the audience doesn`t have to see what the jury saw. I`m sure it was shocking and stunning.
And I think that somewhere in her heart she believes that she loved Caylee. So it was probably stunning for her. She did shed a few tears. She apparently dry heaved in court. I guess that`s what she was doing.
But back to reasonable doubt, Joy, reasonable doubt is founded in reason -- not -- not what may have happened.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes. I got you. But it seems as though there`s a lot of evidence that Casey is a liar and perhaps a bad mother but is there really any proof that she killed the child, in your opinion?
GRACE: Well, right now we`re still on the state`s case and you expect for the evidence to be very strong in the state`s case and to be very persuasive. We haven`t seen the defense yet. How do I know what they are really going to say once they finally start putting up evidence?
But when you talk about hard evidence, I know that tot mom by her own admission was the last one with Caylee. Right? I know that Caylee is dead. I know that tot mom lied about it for 31 days plus. I know that tot mom wanted to live a free and single life. And based on the evidence, it looks like tot mom looked up how to make chloroform.
Chloroform was found at the scene in a syringe where the body was buried. Chloroform was found in tot mom`s car trunk. The cadaver dog did hit in multiple places in the backyard, not on the swimming pool which is where she said Caylee died accidentally.
All those things lead one to reasonably conclude tot mom killed her daughter. How did she do it? I don`t know. But apparently chloroform was involved.
BEHAR: Right. You know, do you call her tot mom because you can`t bring yourself to say her name? Is that why you do that.
GRACE: What I call her is of no concern to anyone. Tot mom, Casey Anthony.
BEHAR: I`m just curious. I`m just curious.
GRACE: Well, there`s your answer. Why do I call her tot mom.
BEHAR: Yes.
GRACE: It`s a moniker that was pegged on her so our viewers could readily associate with her and with the story.
BEHAR: Ok.
GRACE: Casey Anthony? No, I don`t have a problem saying her name or any other name, especially a name that`s been said many, many times in court.
But what I say or any other talking head or media person says about this case is extremely irrelevant to what is going on in the courtroom. This jury is going to reach one of the most important decisions they will ever make in their entire life within the next few weeks.
BEHAR: That`s right.
GRACE: And we will see if there`s going to be justice for Caylee, regardless of who says what on TV.
BEHAR: Ok. But you know, I know it`s true that the decision will be made by the jury but you were a prosecutor. How do you think the prosecution is doing so far?
GRACE: I think the prosecution is doing a great job. And as little weight as I give what I`ve heard so far in the defense, I think that they are really slugging it out. I don`t think there`s a whole lot that they can do.
Look at what they have to work with, Joy. They come into this; their client has been lying for over a month and living it up in bars and night clubs, getting tattoo, slung up with a boyfriend a whole day and night after Caylee goes missing. They don`t have a lot to work with. They`re trying to cobble together a decent defense so I have to give them credit for that.
BEHAR: You do.
Well, let`s get a Nancy Grace prediction, then. What`s going to happen?
GRACE: Well, right now I can`t predict that there will be a conviction. I do believe it will be on Murder One and I have to see more evidence as to whether they`re going to give tot mom the death penalty.
I think there`s a really strong chance out of pure empathy for George and Cindy Anthony. I think it will be a very tough decision come death penalty time.
BEHAR: Well, she could be charged with something else -- I mean convicted of something else. Because I`m reading, it could be aggravated child abuse, aggravated manslaughter of a child, four counts of providing false information to a law enforcement officer as well as first-degree murder. So maybe they will get her on something else, yes?
GRACE: Well, that`s entirely possible. You asked me my prediction and that is my prediction. But there`s always a chance, especially I`m concerned about juror number four who told everybody -- she made no bones about it -- that she does not want to pass judgment on another person.
BEHAR: Oh.
GRACE: That`s going to be really tough with her on the jury to get a Murder One conviction, much less a death penalty.
BEHAR: Yes. All it takes is one, right?
GRACE: Yes.
BEHAR: Ok. Thanks, Nancy.
GRACE: Thank you Joy.
BEHAR: Ok hon. For continuing coverage of the Casey Anthony trial, watch "NANCY GRACE" every night at 8:00 p.m. on HLN.
More on the trial in just a minute. Stay there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Casey Anthony`s lawyer Jose Baez has been the target of a lot of criticism on TV, Twitter, Facebook -- you name it. But why don`t people like him? And could it impact Casey`s defense?
With me now to discuss that are Diane Dimond, a special correspondent for the "Daily Beast" and "Newsweek"; plus back with me also is Marcia Clark, former prosecutor in the O.J. Simpson trial and author of "Guilty by Association".
Welcome ladies to the show.
DIANE DIMOND, THE DAILY BEAST/NEWSWEEK: Thank you.
BEHAR: Marcia, by reading the message boards, Twitter, Facebook, it`s apparent that a lot of people find Baez unlikable. Does that matter in the case?
MARCIA CLARK, FORMER PROSECUTOR IN O.J. SIMPSON TRIAL: It may, Joy. It may because juries have to -- have to somehow appreciate the messenger as well as the message to some degree.
But I`m going to counter that with a little bit of a caveat, which is he`s being very aggressive, he`s got a kind of a bulldog style to him and jurors will cut defense attorneys some slack for that sort of thing.
And say you know what, if I was accused of a heinous crime like this, I want somebody fighting tooth and nail for me too. So they will cut him some slack for being a bit aggressive.
BEHAR: Yes.
CLARK: But at the end of the day, if he`s not making his point well, if he`s not delivering a cogent message to the jury, he will get hurt for that.
BEHAR: Well, what do you think about that, Diane? About him.
DIMOND: Well, I think -- I think Marcia is right. However, I do a lot of twittering on this case and a lot of Facebooking as well. And you`re right. Nobody seems to like him.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: They don`t like him.
DIMOND: The Twitters or tweets me back, whatever the word is.
BEHAR: Yes. Yes.
DIMOND: I`ve met the man. He is a little bit of a bulldog but he`s also sort of a great American dream kind of a guy. Came up from a single mother, got married very young, had a child, went into the Navy, he was proficient at taekwondo.
BEHAR: Thai Kwon Do, yes.
DIMOND: So he`s very competitive, and physically competitive and it`s not beneath him to get reporters in the lunch room and kind of bully them about things to be written.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Really?
DIMOND: Yes, oh he did that with me.
BEHAR: Yes.
DIMOND: He took exception with something I had written at the "Daily Beast" and tried to -- tried to intimidate me.
BEHAR: Intimidate you?
DIMOND: Yes and so I laugh.
BEHAR: But to Marcia`s point, the -- the jurors might like that.
DIMOND: Well yes, but it`s a --
BEHAR: How are they responding to him?
DIMOND: -- if a lot of people out in Twitterdom and Facebookdom don`t like him.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
DIMOND: -- then, it`s pretty good chance that some of the jury don`t like him either.
BEHAR: But do they have -- the question is, do they have to like him? I mean what`s the difference?
And is he possibly, Marcia, is he possibly acting unlikable on purpose to take the heat off of Casey? Well, we don`t like the defense lawyer but, you know, poor girl, she`s stuck with him?
CLARK: Yes. You made a very good point Joy, that`s really important. A jury -- jurors are not that dumb, juror can see the difference between who`s the client and who is the lawyer. There have been instances where the jury will feel like they have to bend over backwards to be fair to the client because the lawyer is either, a, not that good, or, b, obnoxious.
BEHAR: Yes.
CLARK: And I have talked to jurors after trials and they have told me point blank, you know what, we just didn`t want to hurt the defendant for this. We didn`t want to punish them. We wound up actually excusing a lot of the stupid things we saw him do, or the obnoxious things we saw him do to try and give her the benefit of the doubt. Nevertheless, we found guilty for whatever reason.
But you know, I do think that jurors will make an effort to separate their distaste for the lawyer if they have it and they very well may --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well, hopefully.
CLARK: -- from her and it might wound up helping.
BEHAR: Well, you it reminds me of the O.J. Simpson trial, which you were the prosecutor on. Did the -- did the jury like the defense attorneys better than they like the prosecutors? Is that what happened? Was there something there?
CLARK: You know --
I thought -- I thought they did. But as it turns out -- that was my opinion, just based on watching them during the trial. But I don`t know that it had as much to do with anybody personally. And after the fact they wound up actually saying that, that they really weren`t all that enamored of any of the lawyers.
(CROSSTALK)
DIMOND: Well, I covered that trial --
CLARK: Which is kind of interesting.
DIMOND: -- I covered that trial and -- and Johnnie Cochran and you -- you were both great but Johnnie Cochran was a real showman.
BEHAR: And a charmer.
DIMOND: And a charmer.
BEHAR: Yes.
DIMOND: And a snake oil salesman some people say. But you know, Baez is not stupid. I have sat in court and I`ve watched him during jury selection and during this.
BEHAR: Yes.
DIMOND: He`s not making huge mistakes. What he is, is inexperienced --
BEHAR: But he`s laid out a sort of an unusual defense. Shouldn`t the defense --
(CROSSTALK)
CLARK: Yes, it`s a very risky defense.
BEHAR: -- shouldn`t the defense have been, you prove that it was not an accident. Isn`t that what the defense --
(CROSSTALK)
CLARK: Right.
BEHAR: But they are not doing that. They are giving too much information.
DIMOND: In my estimation he should have said --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
DIMOND: -- it was an accident, it was a swimming pool, it happens all the time in Florida with small children and she just panicked. Instead he interjected the grandfather into it. Holding the dead child at the pool --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
DIMOND: -- and then what happened?
BEHAR: Right.
DIMOND: We don`t know, he didn`t finish the scenario.
BEHAR: I mean, if they had said the child drowned in the pool and you proved that that`s not true. There were only bones. I mean I`m not saying it`s true.
CLARK: Right.
BEHAR: I`m just saying, that is the defense, it seems to me.
Marcia, also this guy, Baez, he actually has never defended in a death penalty case. What about that? Is he qualified to do this?
CLARK: You know, usually, Joy, you would see somebody who has much more experience in criminal cases and you see somebody who has escalating experience. And as you start with the lower level misdemeanors and felonies and then, you work your way up to the death cases because that`s an awfully huge burden to carry. You`ve got someone`s life in your hands, quite literally.
And so it is unusual to see a high-profile death penalty case handled by somebody with his kind of background. I was surprised by that.
BEHAR: Yes.
DIMOND: And he`s only been a lawyer since 2005.
BEHAR: He`s -- he`s new with this.
CLARK: Damn right.
BEHAR: Ok. We`ll continue this in minutes. Stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: And I`m back discussing the Casey Anthony trial with her lawyer and defense -- about them.
So I understand that this Baez guy was in a lot financial trouble at some point. He started a bikini company?
DIMOND: A couple of bikini companies.
He graduated from law school, Joy, in 1997. The bar in Florida would not seat him because he hadn`t paid child support or he was in arrears in child support. He had bad student loans. He had some real financial trouble and it took him eight years before he actually got his license to practice.
In the meantime, you have to make a living, so he started some companies, two of which sold bikinis.
BEHAR: I see. Well, you can`t hold that against him.
DIMOND: You`ve got to do something.
BEHAR: But something is a little fishy there. You were saying before that he`s a bit of a bully. So he got into a scuffle with reporters outside the courthouse recently. Let`s watch that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can we ask if you plan to invite Casey to the stand there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wow.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You. Get out of the way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You guys know we are here. You guys know we are here.
With outbursts like that, that is kind of unacceptable, Jose, don`t you think.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was just out in the street. Come on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get your hand off of me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Well, all stressed out. Marcia, can you identify with the stress level he must be dealing with? You can, probably, right?
CLARK: A little bit.
BEHAR: Yes.
CLARK: I mean why do you ask? I have no idea what you`re talking about. Stress? Stress?
I think you`ve got to be awfully careful when you go out in public and all this press is around you. I remember throngs of them walking backwards. I worried about the cameramen getting actually killed because people were back behind them and there was a huge crowd and it got very dangerous.
But you cannot just pop off like that in front of them. You`ve got to be very careful.
BEHAR: Yes. He has other attorneys on his team, Diane, that are much more likeable and less volatile. Why don`t they go in there and do something?
DIMOND: And more experienced. And one of the older men there, Cheney Mason is his name, and he`s done death penalty cases. So the reporters, we`re all sitting there saying, why doesn`t he let Cheney Mason do something? Some of it.
BEHAR: And the answer to that is?
DIMOND: I don`t know.
BEHAR: Ego?
DIMOND: Perhaps. That`s probably my best guess.
Now, Cheney Mason does have a hearing problem. We saw it during jury selection and so maybe that`s a handicap that keeps him sitting down more than standing up. But during the trial we haven`t seen him say a word.
BEHAR: We understand that during her -- she and her brother, Casey and her brother, were slamming Baez in these jailhouse phone calls that they were doing. So she doesn`t -- does she even trust him, Marcia?
CLARK: That`s a good question. Especially right now. If she`s being informed of all the twitters and tweets that are negative for him or is she seeing in his appearance in court not impressing the jurors she might very well have lost faith.
But there`s nothing she can do about it at this point. She`s got him, they`re midstream. The judge is not going to allow her to relieve him as her counsel at this point. So, you know, she`s in it. That`s it.
DIMOND: You know what? At jury selection there was a little tiff with him and the microphone was left on and he looked at her and said, "Stop acting like a 2-year-old." And she said, "Oh, really?" And she swatted him.
BEHAR: Oh, boy.
DIMOND: This is a jury selection. This is before the trial even starts. So there is some tension.
BEHAR: Well, some careers are hanging by a thread here, looks like.
DIMOND: Yes and some lives too.
BEHAR: And some lives. Ok. Thank you ladies, very much.
We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: When many Americans retire, they stop working move to Florida, and develop non-specific urithritis (ph). But Larry King is not most Americans. He`s doing TV specials, a Vegas comedy show, and he`s out promoting his new book, "Truth Be Told." And for now, he`s all mine. Welcome, Larry King, to my show.
LARRY KING: I belong to you.
BEHAR: You belong to me for the next few minutes.
KING: I wish to announce something based on the press conference last Monday.
BEHAR: Yes.
KING: I wish to say this to the world, to my wife and to any others that may be interested, I have no danger of having an Internet relationship since I don`t know how the hell to do it.
BEHAR: You wouldn`t--
KING: I have people -- I have people do it -- I have wonderful people, Greg before now Jason. I Twitter, I send -- I do important things. I don`t Twitter "I`m going to the drugstore." But I don`t do it, see, I don`t do it.
BEHAR: So there`s no chance of seeing any of your private parts out there?
KING: No chance.
BEHAR: OK. Well, widows in Florida are weeping. OK.
(LAUGHTER)
KING: That`s pretty funny. By the way, another thing I wish to reveal tonight. That is, we already talked about brain cancer--
BEHAR: Oh, with cell phones, yes.
KING: However, what is not discussed is people who text and thumb cancer.
BEHAR: That`s true, there is a lot of that.
KING: A lot of that, but they don`t -- they hide.
BEHAR: Also, you put it in your pocket, you could become like, you know, the sperm count can go down, all that.
KING: What?
BEHAR: Yes. So people --
KING: That don`t affect you.
BEHAR: No, no. I have no sperm left.
You know, there`s a line--
KING: We`re on a roll here.
BEHAR: There is a great line in your book when you say, I started in radio, you couldn`t even say the word "pregnant" on the air. You had to say she`s with child. Now you can actually get pregnant on television. But I mean, imagine that. Years ago, remember, Lucy and Dezi were actually married and they had to be in separate beds.
KING: It was -- at times -- as I look back on those times, you couldn`t say abortion. Couldn`t say the word abortion.
BEHAR: Or pregnant. You couldn`t say words.
KING: Jackie Gleason, he never flew, but he finally flew to England to do a movie with Laurence Olivier. So he wanted to work with Olivier, and he came back and he said to me, he was watching television in England, they say curse words. Can you believe it? Gleason was shocked at what he heard. Lenny Bruce they put in jail, for what they do on HBO every night.
BEHAR: Exactly, that`s the way it is now. I heard Gleason was not a nice man. True?
KING: He was nice to me.
BEHAR: He was nice to you but he was not nice to anyone else.
KING: He was a mentor to me.
BEHAR: He was mean to writers, I hear. That`s what writers tell me.
KING: Yeah? Well, he was a stern judge. Jackie had, for example, he couldn`t read music. But he could listen to the whole orchestra and tell you, the third violin is off. He had innate sense of what was correct.
BEHAR: OK, you have a lot in there about the tabloids and how it`s melting into hard news and everything. And you know, it`s true. I mean, a lot of it is true. You have been a victim of the tabloids yourself, and the paparazzi hounded you and people made fun of you, and late-night comics had a field day. Not me. Not me. Because I love you and know you.
KING: I think it`s fair game. First of all, thank you, because we go back a long while.
BEHAR: I`ll get the check.
(CROSSTALK)
KING: But it`s the nature of the beast. And I have participated, too, because when my show was on, we did things that I was not totally comfortable with.
BEHAR: Like what?
KING: I don`t care about people`s personal lives.
BEHAR: You don`t?
KING: I`m not a gossip and I don`t care who -- it`s hard to say. Anthony Weiner.
BEHAR: Yes.
KING: I don`t like the person who outed him.
BEHAR: Well, he outed himself, it turns out. Because he now admitted -- he admitted this week he put the picture out there.
KING: I know, he admitted. But the person who revealed it. In other words, like, why is that my business?
BEHAR: Well, it`s your business. I`ll tell you why it`s your business. Because he`s a congressman. And that shows an extreme lack of judgment for him to put a picture of himself--
KING: A lack of personal judgment, correct.
BEHAR: -- yes, in his underwear to some young chick. That is a bad idea. It goes to judgment.
KING: Does it? OK. So by that standard Bill Clinton showed terrible judgment.
BEHAR: He certainly did, and he did.
KING: With an intern. Pretty good president.
BEHAR: He was a great president, everybody knows that.
KING: So why can`t we separate that?
BEHAR: Well, here`s my question, do you think Anthony Weiner will be mayor of New York City? Do you think New Yorkers will rise above this?
KING: New York might. You know, I know New York pretty well, and I would say they might.
BEHAR: He lied. He apologized to the guy that sort of stirred this up, Breitbart. And he`s been lying. He lied to Wolf Blitzer. I mean, he`s lying.
KING: I guess when there are so many lies, whoever runs against him just has to show clips. He will not be mayor. As for his district, I don`t know his district. It combines Brooklyn and Queens.
BEHAR: I think it`s Queens, yes, Brooklyn, but by the way, Brooklyn. You`re from Brooklyn and so am I.
KING: You bet.
BEHAR: Brooklyn has a lot of interesting people come out of Brooklyn. Barbra Streisand, Neil Diamond, Barry Manilow.
KING: A lot. Do you know that, I think of the Fortune 400, I think like 71 of the CEOs were born in Brooklyn.
BEHAR: Now, I mention Barbra Streisand. You have something in your book about her. Tell me about Streisand when she did your show.
KING: She is -- I love her. She`s a total perfectionist.
BEHAR: And a great talent.
KING: You can`t beat the talent.
BEHAR: Right.
KING: She`s a total -- and very kind. We went to her house. We had everything done right. Barbra calls up before we go on and says, tell Larry to wear red.
BEHAR: Oh, really?
KING: Because we were in a room in her house that had red velvet drapes.
BEHAR: Right.
KING: And she wanted me to match the drapes. Now, you could say--
BEHAR: The drapes and the curtains have to match. What is that thing called?
(LAUGHTER)
KING: I don`t know. But you could say also that`s overly perfectionist, but you could say she`s concerned about the way it looks.
BEHAR: Right.
KING: But what amazes me about Barbra is that she has never had faith, total faith in her talent.
BEHAR: I know she has a little stage fright.
KING: Stage fright--
BEHAR: You know, only the mediocre are always at their best, Larry. She`s a great talent and she`s going to be insecure about her talent. That`s the way it goes. People who have little talent always think they are great. That`s how it goes.
KING: In Streisand`s case, I find it hard to rationalize. I mean, I`ve talked to her--
BEHAR: She doesn`t know she`s going to hit that note. It`s like Baryshnikov, is he going to jump that high?
KING: For example, she`s a great guest.
BEHAR: Yes.
KING: She answers your questions, she is very opinionated. You like that. And when you break for commercial, am I doing good? How am I doing? You think I`m getting through? Why, you`re Barbra Streisand. I like her very much.
BEHAR: It`s the early years. She had trouble with her mother. But let`s not go into that.
You know, you say in the book that you wouldn`t ask -- I love this, that you wouldn`t ask Angelina Jolie about her private life, but -- about the fact that she might have broken up the marriage between Aniston and Brad Pitt.
KING: None of my business.
BEHAR: It`s none of your business.
KING: Absolutely not.
BEHAR: Do you think Barbara Walters would ask it, I might even ask it, why wouldn`t you ask it?
KING: My curiosity -- I understand the public would want to know. So I would ask it in a way -- I don`t have an agenda. It`s hard to explain.
BEHAR: Yeah. I don`t either.
(CROSSTALK)
KING: Well, why do you care what happened in a personal relationship?
BEHAR: Because--
KING: It has absolutely nothing to do with her talent.
BEHAR: Let me tell you, I`m interested in how something like that works. I believe that a third party cannot break up a good marriage. So I would say to her, you know, maybe their marriage wasn`t working and you happened to be the third party at the moment, explain what happened.
KING: I might ask, was it difficult to be in a situation of falling for someone who was at that time attached?
BEHAR: That`s right. That`s good.
KING: But that would be the least of my interesting things to ask her about.
BEHAR: What do you think is the most interesting thing to ask Angelina? Why did you kiss your brother on the lips? Why did you take blood from Billy Bob?
KING: I had her on when she was -- I touched the blood vile.
BEHAR: You touched the blood vile?
KING: Correct. She handed me the blood vile. And we asked questions about the blood vile, because that`s interesting.
BEHAR: That is interesting, yes. How about the brother? That`s a little weird.
KING: How about the relationship with her father? They don`t talk.
BEHAR: Oh, I know they don`t talk.
KING: I see Jon Voight all the time.
BEHAR: Really? He has a little wacky side to him, I think.
KING: He`s very, very conservative.
BEHAR: I know he is. You say that Sarah Palin scares a lot of people, speaking of conservatives. Why do you think she scares people?
KING: Because, well, she thinks that she`s warning the British about the British economy. That would scare me, if you`re going to be the president and you`re warning -- and you`re also telling people, take care of your guns and you`re arriving during the day when you`re arriving at midnight.
BEHAR: A few details she got wrong.
KING: You`re arriving to warn only two people and you`re warning the whole village. She got a few things -- she got a few things wrong.
BEHAR: Do you think that presidential hopefuls should take IQ tests?
KING: You know, you know who might have favored that? Thomas Jefferson might have favored that. He wanted only the Senate to vote for president.
BEHAR: He didn`t believe in the masses. He thought the masses were asses, basically.
KING: In a sense, he did.
BEHAR: Yes, he did.
(CROSSTALK)
KING: And he may have been the brightest president we ever had.
BEHAR: Yes, well, Bill Clinton is up there. Abraham Lincoln, some of the great presidents were brilliant. Kennedy was smart.
KING: Kennedy had the best line on Jefferson. He had a dinner--
BEHAR: Does he have a daughter? Oh--
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: I`m sorry. Go ahead.
KING: I just realized, I`m on a tabloid show. It`s a tabloid show.
BEHAR: Hurry up. Tell it, I`ve only got 30 seconds.
KING: John Kennedy had dinner for Nobel Prize winners, and he said, this is the greatest collection of minds ever to dine in this room, except when Jefferson ate here alone.
BEHAR: That`s right. That`s right. That`s a great statement. I love that.
KING: So should -- an IQ test? Yes.
BEHAR: Yes, an IQ test--
KING: An IQ test--
BEHAR: How about a history test?
KING: A history test?
BEHAR: Yes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BEHAR: Larry`s new book, "Truth Be Told," is in stores now. When we come back, I`ll talk with the Duggar family, 20 Duggars to be exact, and somehow we managed to fit them all into one green room.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Earlier in the week, I sat down with the Duggar family, which, it may come as no surprise, is no easy feat. Take a look.
(MUSIC)
Catchy tune. Don`t worry, once they were all seated, there was still some time left over for me to interview them about that TLC show "19 Kids and Counting," and their new book, "A Love That Multiplies."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEHAR: I`ve met you many times on "The View." And every time I see you, your tribe has increased. Now, you have how many -- I think you were on the show maybe two years ago, and since then you have had two more, right?
MICHELLE DUGGAR, HAS 19 CHILDREN: Yes, right. We have Jordan and now little Josie, who is 17 months old.
BEHAR: And in a typical week, you will go through -- let me see, I have my notes here. You will go through seven gallons of milk, 15 dozen eggs, and do 75 loads of laundry. How many Valium do you need for this? I mean, how do you do it?
MICHELLE DUGGAR: I think by God`s grace. That is really the only way I could explain any of that. We really are thankful for each one of these children, they are such a gift. And we`re just enjoying them.
BEHAR: They are very well behaved children.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Or are they just acting? Tell the truth. Are they just doing this for TV?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right now we`re a little tired, I think.
BEHAR: You did "The Today Show" earlier. So you`re really exhausted. That`s the way to do things with children, then. Also animals. You get them exhausted. Really, you exhaust everyone. But it seems as though they are behaved and they are sort of -- they`re happy kids. It looks like that, anyway.
MICHELLE DUGGAR: Yes, right.
JIM BOB DUGGAR, HAS 19 CHILDREN: We love spending time together as a family. We`re always doing fun, exciting things, and of course our show, on TLC, "19 Kids and Counting," just kind of tracks whatever we`re doing. And they film about two or three days a week, about two or three hours a day, so it isn`t that intrusive, but we`re always having a good time as a family.
MICHELLE DUGGAR: And I think there is so much going on. We`ve got older children that drive and are busy with helping out on the volunteer fire department and a lot of other things, and the younger ones that just keep us all busy.
BEHAR: Well, I would think it has gotten easier in that way, that you have older children to pick up the slack, right?
MICHELLE DUGGAR: Definitely. They can run up to the store and get those seven gallons of milk for us.
BEHAR: Of course, you add about $1,000 a month for groceries?
JIM BOB DUGGAR: Well, it`s increased over the years. It`s probably about $3,000 a month.
BEHAR: Really?
JIM BOB DUGGAR: Last -- seems like in about the last 24, 36 months, the food bill prices have gone up about double.
BEHAR: $3,000? That`s a lot of money. I mean, what do you do for a living?
JIM BOB DUGGAR: Real estate. And over the years we`ve invested in commercial real estate. But back about 20 years ago, we went through Jim Siemen`s (ph) financial freedom seminar, and we purposed to get out of debt and stay out of debt.
BEHAR: So you`re not in debt?
JIM BOB DUGGAR: We`re not in debt. We never bought a new car. We always buy used and save the difference.
BEHAR: How many cars do you need?
JIM BOB DUGGAR: We have about -- probably a dozen.
(CROSSTALK)
JILL DUGGAR: Well, my oldest brother is in the used car business, so that works out nicely for the cars. And we`re always test-driving for him.
BEHAR: How old are you, Jill?
JILL DUGGAR: 20.
BEHAR: You`re 20?
JILL DUGGAR: Yes, I am.
BEHAR: Is she your oldest?
JIM BOB DUGGAR: No, we have--
MICHELLE DUGGAR: Number four.
JIM BOB DUGGAR: -- the twins, Jenna and John. They`re older.
BEHAR: Where are they?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Raise your hand. Oh, they are older than 20. Over here.
MICHELLE DUGGAR: These are our volunteer firemen.
(CROSSTALK)
JIM BOB DUGGAR: Our oldest son Josh, he is 23, and is married to Anna and they had our granddaughter Mckenzie, and Anna is expecting here in a couple of weeks.
BEHAR: I know, I think I`ve met them on another show also.
MICHELLE DUGGAR: Yes.
BEHAR: Did you breast-feed all these kids?
MICHELLE DUGGAR: Yes.
BEHAR: Every one of them?
MICHELLE DUGGAR: Yes.
BEHAR: You`re kidding me.
MICHELLE DUGGAR: No. I --
(CROSSTALK)
MICHELLE DUGGAR: I absolutely love--
BEHAR: You know, they still look perky. That`s what`s fascinating.
MICHELLE DUGGAR: Oh, you are sweet. These children will keep you very busy and keep you --
JIM BOB DUGGAR: She walks on the treadmill or actually on a (inaudible) about an hour every morning.
BEHAR: You have time to work out?
MICHELLE DUGGAR: Well, it`s my favorite time of the day because I get to listen to great preaching messages while I`m working out in the morning, and I usually have one of the girls with me.
JIM BOB DUGGAR: She is trying to get me on there, but I have--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You`re actually making good enough living to support 20 kids, and you`re doing it -- and a wife -- and you`re doing it with real estate, when we`re in a housing crisis. How do you do that?
JIM BOB DUGGAR: Well, actually, it`s a good time to buy. It`s a bad time to sell. But we`ve invested in commercial real estate over the past 20 years, and it`s just kept us afloat. And so some of the building trade industry businesses we`ve had have gone down, but we`ve replaced the renters. Anyway.
BEHAR: That`s great. I worry a little bit about if the economy gets worse for you. How many -- how much time passed between these kids when you were not pregnant? Because it looks like every year -- you`re only, what are you, 43 or something?
MICHELLE DUGGAR: I`m 44 and will be 45.
BEHAR: 44, so every single year you have been pregnant? Pretty much.
MICHELLE DUGGAR: Since I was 21. Yes, pretty much. It`s like we average about 16 months apart on the babies. That`s average.
BEHAR: How many months?
MICHELLE DUGGAR: 16.
BEHAR: 16.
MICHELLE DUGGAR: But typically when the baby is eight months old, eight or nine months old, I`m usually expecting again. So this is really the first time there`s been such a long stretch with little Josie. She`s 17 months.
BEHAR: Little Josie, we`re going to talk about her when we come back because she`s the miracle baby.
MICHELLE DUGGAR: Yes.
BEHAR: And you also have healthy children all this time, so you`ve been very lucky. OK, we`ll be right back with more from the Duggar clan in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with the big and fabulous Duggar family. Let`s talk about your new book. In the book you talk about your newest baby, Josie. She was born premature, three months early, and only weighing 22 ounces. I mean, I was trying to figure out what that is. That`s so tiny.
MICHELLE DUGGAR: It`s so tiny. And when she was born, Jim Bob came back to the room and said to me, Michelle, her little head is the size of a cue ball. I was just thinking oh my, I just can`t even imagine -- I`ve never seen a baby that tiny.
BEHAR: Is that the first time you`ve ever had a premature child?
MICHELLE DUGGAR: Yes.
BEHAR: I can`t believe with all these children that you`ve never had a problem before. So you were really -- and you`re still lucky, God is watching this family, because your little Josie is doing great.
MICHELLE DUGGAR: She is. You`d never know it.
BEHAR: She`s beautiful and big.
MICHELLE DUGGAR: She`s a good premie. I mean, on the outside now she looks just normal.
BEHAR: How old is she now?
MICHELLE DUGGAR: She`s 17 months, walking, talking, smiling.
BEHAR: Are you done or not?
MICHELLE DUGGAR: I hope not.
BEHAR: Really? You want more?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You`re trying? Jim Bob, give it a rest.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: That`s enough. You guys tell him, it`s enough, right?
JILL DUGGAR: We have to have at least one more girl.
BEHAR: One more girl? How many -- what have you got so far?
JILL DUGGAR: Nine girls, ten boys.
BEHAR: So you need one more?
JILL DUGGAR: If not, we at least have to adopt one.
BEHAR: And what, some kind of (inaudible) -- why do you want to have another one? Come on.
MICHELLE DUGGAR: Oh, my, look it. Look around. I mean, why would you not?
BEHAR: I know, it`s an embarrassment of riches, but you know--
MICHELLE DUGGAR: Dad says that each one of these children are worth more than a billion dollars each. And they are. They are such a gift. And I think, why would we not want to receive more?
BEHAR: I see. I feel that way about food.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: But I also know when to stop eating. So I think there might be -- 44?
JIM BOB DUGGAR: We don`t actually (inaudible) to have more. (inaudible), grandparent`s days, but we love each child and each one is glad to be here.
BEHAR: I see that you love your children and they seem very well adjusted and happy children. They are all very cute. Imagine 20 if they weren`t cute. It would be horrible.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: But I still say, 44, that`s it. I mean, you may not be -- I mean, the eggs, come on.
MICHELLE DUGGAR: Oh hey, you know what, if the Lord shuts it off, then that`s his decision. My mom, my mother was 40 when she had me.
BEHAR: Well, 40 is OK.
MICHELLE DUGGAR: And she said -- yes, but she said to me, I mean, I just remember her telling me that she went through the change right after that, just immediately after.
BEHAR: The Lord was telling her that`s enough by putting her through the changes.
MICHELLE DUGGAR: Yes. I mean, really, that`s the way it works.
BEHAR: I`m sorry that I have to cut you off because we`re done with the segment. It`s been lovely to see you all again. Come back next time with or without another one.
MICHELLE DUGGAR: Yes.
BEHAR: And catch new episodes of "19 Kids and Counting" on TLC Tuesdays at 9:00 p.m., and the Duggars` new book, "A Love that Multiplies," is out now. Thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
