Return to Transcripts main page
Joy Behar Page
Casey Anthony Murder Trial; Interview With Jada Pinkett Smith
Aired June 13, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, the fourth week of Casey Anthony`s capital murder trial could mark the close of the prosecution`s arguments. But after the state was dealt a blow in court today, have they made their case?
Then, Anthony Weiner checks into rehab on the heels of more scandalous photo leaks and the discovery that the congressman had tweeted a 17-year- old girl. Is it time for him to resign?
Plus, Jada Pinkett Smith talks about being in one of the most powerful families in Hollywood and raising kids in the celebrity spotlight.
That and more starting right now.
BEHAR: The Casey Anthony murder trial ended early today but not before more gruesome details were revealed. Here now with more are Ryan Smith, anchor for "In Session" on TruTV, who`s outside the court today and has been for weeks. Rikki Klieman, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor; plus Casey Jordan, attorney, criminologist and contributor to "In Session".
Ok, the duct tape was discussed today, and the duct tape examiner was on the stand. Listen --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: During my examination of Q63, an outline of a heart appeared in one of the corners on the edge of that piece of duct tape.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ok. So there was a heart sticker on the duct tape that was over Caylee`s -- the child`s mouth, right? What does it mean? What does it mean? Tell me.
RIKKI KLIEMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, from a lawyer`s point of view -- from a lawyer`s point of view, the prosecution is trying to say, look, she was suffocated. That mommy took the duct tape, wrapped it around, got it over there, and that`s how she was killed. Therefore, a homicide, therefore that Casey is guilty. The defense says no such thing.
BEHAR: What about the heart sticker? How does this --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Go, Rikki.
KLIEMAN: Well, it`s mommy`s duct tape. Mommy`s duct tape. Mommy had duct tape that she played with the child that has a heart. Maybe. That`s what they`re going to argue.
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, ok. That`s the lawyer argument. Now you have the criminologist argument which is that it`s all very psychologically symbolic. Don`t forget this is the duct tape that was in the Anthony home. Her father would have had access to it, but so did Casey. And there was a placard of heart-shaped stickers in the home, as well.
BEHAR: Right.
JORDAN: Now you`ve got the residue of a heart-shaped sticker -- and by the way, this did not come into evidence, but there was a heart-shaped sticker found on a piece of cardboard at the scene. So I`m curious as to why they didn`t get that in. Maybe it didn`t match. I don`t know.
But the idea is that symbolically -- and this is a very screwed up young woman, whether you think she killed her daughter or not -- was the killer giving her a good-bye kiss, an "I love you", as she died?
BEHAR: Or, or, or --
KLIEMAN: Was it the handy --
JORDAN: Was it staged?
KLIEMAN: Was it a handy piece of duct tape and was it staged?
BEHAR: Well, I mean isn`t it possible -- this case is really getting complicated for non-lawyers. So let me just ask you what -- couldn`t it be -- I had heard something about how she would put the -- maybe allegedly put the chloroform on the child so that she could go out partying. Then you have to put the duct tape on top of that to keep the chloroform in, I presume.
KLIEMAN: Right.
BEHAR: And then she didn`t really want to kill her. This was like I`ll be right back type of thing? I don`t get it.
KLIEMAN: Right, but that`s not the defense. The defense in this case is the child drowned. It was totally an accident.
BEHAR: Right.
KLIEMAN: And that the grandfather disposed of the body. So they`re not going there.
JORDAN: No and neither did the prosecution. The state doesn`t believe that`s it either. That`s what you know -- it gets confusing, if you listen to all the theories out there, they think Zanny the nanny was symbolic for Xanax that she drugged her daughter. But that`s just the general public speculating. You`ve got to stick with the evidence that got put in front of this jury.
BEHAR: Ok. All right. Now, there were no fingerprints found on the duct tape.
KLIEMAN: No surprise.
JORDAN: No.
BEHAR: There aren`t any photos of the heart outline either. So isn`t that a problem for the state? Either one of you.
KLIEMAN: It`s a problem for the state in the sense that it would have been better if obviously there were a photo. And obviously if there were fingerprint because in the CSI world in which we live we really like to see all of that kind of evidence.
However, the explanation is completely correct. You don`t expect fingerprints because the body was exposed in the elements for many, many months.
BEHAR: Right. Yes.
KLIEMAN: And the fact that it deteriorated so that you could not get a photo of the heart sticker certainly doesn`t mean there wasn`t a heart sticker. I think if the defense is going that way, they`re going nowhere.
BEHAR: Ok.
JORDAN: And on the heart-shaped sticker, it may even help the state that there was no photo because that would be a concrete thing they could look at and go, well, is it a heart or is it a profile of Lincoln? I mean you want to just have the testimony of Elizabeth Fontaine, who was textbook perfect, saying I saw the residue of a heart-shaped sticker, end of story. That`s all they have to deal with.
BEHAR: Ok. Ryan, there was an argument over the hair photos and the state lost. Tell us what happened there.
RYAN HAPPENED, HOST, "IN SESSION": Well, what happened with these hair photos is, you have a picture of a hair-band, apparently a piece of hair that was found in the trunk. And what the state is trying to say is the darkened portion is very consistent with what was in the trunk, consistent with Caylee Anthony, and you know, the defense here is trying to make the point of consistent doesn`t mean it could be Caylee.
When you take a step back and look at the larger picture in all this, consistent means it could have been Casey, could have been Cindy, could have been anybody with their lineage. That becomes a problem with the photos that are being offered into evidence and this hair-banding.
You want to try -- the prosecution is trying to build a connection between Casey Anthony putting Caylee in the trunk. But there were a number of hairs in that trunk -- they`re talking about one hair in particular and you`re talking about a photo that may or may not though composition.
If you believe the prosecution`s experts, it does. If you don`t and you look at the photo then you may be saying I don`t know if this is Caylee for certain. And then you might not be accomplishing what the prosecution is trying to accomplish in this case.
BEHAR: Ok. The chief medical examiner said she believes Caylee died as a result of homicide. So listen to her explain why she thinks that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. JAN GARAVAGLIA, CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: It is a red flag that when a child is not reported immediately to authorities either with an injury, that`s something we look for, for foul play.
The other thing that makes it a homicide is that the body was hidden.
The last besides the delay, besides the being found in a field decomposed, would be the duct tape. Somewhere located on the lower half of this face.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ok. Now that was the most damning testimony so far, Ryan. Am I right?
SMITH: Absolutely. Because this is the -- the medical examiner talking about what she used to come to her judgment. Here`s the irony in all this, Joy. The defense is saying that it`s an accident theory, that she died by drowning in the pool. What she`s trying to say is she used all the different information she had to come to her judgment.
So if you think about it, if Casey would have stepped up and said this was an accident and brought Caylee to them then, she would have used that as part of her analysis. But she didn`t have that. All she had was a mother who didn`t say anything, this baby who was left in the wilderness, duct tape at the scene. And she formed her conclusions based on that.
So it`s ironic that they`re complaining about an accident now when it could have changed her evaluation.
BEHAR: Well, this Dr. G, they call her, she also said that 100 percent of accidental deaths are reported --
KLIEMAN: Drowning.
BEHAR: Yes. Accidental drownings are reported.
KLIEMAN: Because you`re trying to -- essentially with a child because her argument is that you would try to save the life of a child. That you would call 911 immediately; that you would try to save the life.
I will say this since I haven`t argued the defense side and you need a defense lawyer here.
BEHAR: Shouldn`t the defense have gotten in there?
KLIEMAN: Well, the defense is going to have a field day, I say, if this case rests from the prosecution`s side by this Wednesday, and it`s not going to the jury for another at least five days or seven days of testimony.
We`re going to hear from experts from the defense. They`re going to say, look, there is no evidence here that this was a homicide. There may not be evidence that it was an accident, but they are going to say there`s no evidence that there is a homicide. And what the defense is looking for is to save her life.
BEHAR: Right.
KLIEMAN: And I`ll say this -- I`ll bet my house she doesn`t get the death penalty. I won`t bet my house that she doesn`t get convicted.
JORDAN: Yes. I totally concur.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: -- of something.
But this doctor is a celebrity coroner. She appears on the Discovery Channel --
JORDAN: That can work both ways.
BEHAR: But I mean isn`t -- that`s going to be hard to dispute. She must have some credentials --
KLIEMAN: She was a terrific witness.
JORDAN: Yes.
KLIEMAN: She was terrific.
BEHAR: So that will be hard to go against her, right?
KLIEMAN: Well, they need another expert. The defense, I`m sure, has one.
BEHAR: Here`s another area. A bug expert, an entomologist, took the stand Saturday. He studied the bugs at the scene where the body was found. Based on that, he said this. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NEAL HASKELL, FORENSIC ENTOMOLOGY EXPERT: I have no question that body`s been out there for many, many months.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And when you say many, many months, can you give us -- is that as specific a range as you can give us is many, many months?
HASKELL: Based on the -- based on the recovery from the scene, I believe I stated June and/or early July, something like that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Casey, is this a big deal, this part?
JORDAN: I think it was really powerful because it corroborated so much of what the forensic anthropologist, Dr. Vass, the guy who was expert in human decomposition, had said earlier. Both men put this body at six months, which was the last time that Caylee was seen.
And both men for what it`s worth, highly likeable. They really kind of seemed like affable, believable people to the jury. And sometimes scientists don`t come across that way, and it can bite them. But I think the prosecution did extremely well with both of these forensic guys.
BEHAR: They get paid a lot to do this.
JORDAN: They do get paid but I mean --
BEHAR: So I mean that could be motivation to say what they have to say?
JORDAN: No, not when they all get paid. Not when they all get paid.
When the going rate is $400 an hour for any expert, it just creates an industry standard. You can`t really attack them based on the fact that they`re getting paid. But they`re professionals like everybody else.
KLIEMAN: But the defense, again, is going to have its own experts and they`re going to say that it`s junk science.
JORDAN: Right.
KLIEMAN: Period end, that`s going to be what the defense is on that testimony.
BEHAR: Ok. We`re going to have more on this subject when we come back in just a minute. Stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back discussing the Casey Anthony murder trial. And joining the discussion is Brian Russell, forensic psychology and attorney.
Ok Rikki, I want to ask you something. There was some kind of high- tech graphic that they used today where they superimposed the child`s skull over the picture of Caylee. Why did they do that?
RIKKI KLIEMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, they did it because it has enormous prejudicial value. What you have is not only the face of the child, but you also have the smiling face of the mother. And I think that is so beyond the pale, that this is something the prosecution should not have done -- at least not put the mother, the defendant, in there --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Do you mean on camera?
KLIEMAN: Yes.
BEHAR: We saw the mother --
(CROSSTALK)
KLIEMAN: The mother smiling and then we have the daughter who then morphs into a skull. I mean, it`s so inherently prejudicial that it has the potential to be reversible error. Meaning, if she were convicted that the case could be reversed.
So if I`m the prosecutor, I don`t do that kind of thing because I just think I should do my case by the numbers. And I think that that was an insane thing to do in terms of its risk.
BEHAR: But wasn`t it to show that the skull actually belonged to Caylee?
KLIEMAN: Of course.
BEHAR: Yes.
KLIEMAN: But I didn`t need the mother there, too.
BEHAR: It`s very dramatic.
KLIEMAN: Very dramatic.
BEHAR: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
BRIAN RUSSELL, FORENSIC PYSCHOLOGIST: Also --
BEHAR: Yes, go ahead.
RUSSELL: Also Joy, I think they needed to show it to show that the duct tape had to have put -- been put in place prior to decomposition of the skull. And that`s going to be important because the defense is going to argue that the meter reader may have moved that body and actually applied the tape afterwards -- after decomposition.
BEHAR: And you know but I know -- they showed the duct tape over Caylee`s mouth. Is it correct to Photoshop evidence like that? They are basically PhotoShopping.
KLIEMAN: Well, in terms of the morphing is what they did.
BEHAR: Yes.
KLIEMAN: But there certainly is an explanation which I just think you just got from Ryan, that what we do want to see is that this was this child and this duct tape was there --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Right.
KLIEMAN: -- before the child was disposed of. But nonetheless, it`s high risk. It`s high risk.
(CROSSTALK)
RUSSELL: There`s plenty of precedents --
BEHAR: There`s plenty of precedents for something like that?
RUSSELL: There`s plenty -- plenty of precedent for digital recreation evidence. But -- and if you were the judge, Joy, you would always have to weigh, as she said, the probative value of it, its tendency to prove something; versus the prejudicial value, it`s tendency to inflame the jury towards the defendant. And in case -- case the judge decided I think rightly that the probative value outweighed the prejudicial value.
But she`s right. It could be an issue for appeal.
BEHAR: I see. Well, that`s not good.
Ok now, I want -- let`s talk about Casey in court for a while. Ryan does Casey -- and this is an interesting question -- does she act different when the jury is in the room and when they`re not?
RYAN SMITH, ANCHOR, "IN SESSION" ON TRUTV: You know, it depends, Joy. I want to give you an example. You just talked about the skull being superimposed on Caylee`s face.
BEHAR: Yes.
SMITH: When the jury was there, Casey Anthony was crying. She was very upset. At one point, she had her head in the crook of the arm of Dorothy Clay Sims her attorney. So then after that, that was shown for about five minutes. The jury was let go. And then they had -- they showed it again without the jury being there.
BEHAR: Yes.
SMITH: You saw a totally different Casey Anthony. You saw somebody who was stone-faced almost very angry at looking at it. But there were no tears. There was no consolation of the lawyer --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: She is unbelievable -- this girl is an actress.
SMITH: So -- so that was one instance where I saw it. Yes, that was one instance.
BEHAR: She`s acting. Now if you tell me something like that --
(CROSSTALK)
SMITH: Yes.
BEHAR: -- that sounds like she`s acting for the jury. Wow. And where is -- where is Casey during the recess times? Do you know that, Rikki?
SMITH: She stays -- she stays at the defense table. She`s there, she`s talking to her lawyers. And you know, I`ve seen times, Joy, where she`s crying and then, the jury leaves and she`s still crying. So it`s always so hard to tell with her what`s believable and what`s not.
BEHAR: Ok now this girl has been wearing a different outfit every single day. Which -- let`s see -- it`s a six-week trial, that`s 36 outfits. I`m on TV, I don`t have 36 outfits.
KLIEMAN: Me neither.
BEHAR: Why does she have to be such a fashionista in this particular trial?
KLIEMAN: Well -- there are -- there certainly are lessons learned. We, who have been on the defense side, have choreographed clothing for our client in the same way, by the way --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
KLIEMAN: -- that the government has often choreographed clothing for a surviving victim or sexual assault victim. But there is something to be said of what is the image you want to create? The greatest image who I think that was ever created was by Leslie Abramson in the Menendez brothers` trials when they wore the sweaters.
BEHAR: Oh yes.
KLIEMAN: I mean -- and that`s been one that`s gone through the ages. In this particular case, I certainly think they`ve done her hair correctly. They`ve had her look appropriate. Perhaps there should be a limit to the clothing.
BEHAR: I think so.
KLIEMAN: Perhaps and I say --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: She can wear that yellow shirt a few times. She doesn`t have to wear a different shirt every single day.
KLIEMAN: I would -- if I were doing this I would have her in about three things and no more.
BEHAR: Three things and no more. Ok.
Now -- but we -- we`ve also seen her smiling as he pointed out before or somebody said that. And do you think the jury notices that, Brian? Let me ask Brian. Do you think the jury notices all that -- all that body language of hers?
(CROSSTALK)
SMITH: I think sometimes they do. I will tell you this --
RUSSELL: Interesting --
SMITH: -- oh I`m sorry, Brian, was that for you?
BEHAR: Go ahead. One of you. I don`t care who it is.
SMITH: I`ll go ahead.
RUSSELL: Go ahead.
SMITH: I think the jury noticed it in the beginning. But then after a while, they stopped focusing so much on her. So now when she`s crying, when she`s upset, a lot of times we see the jury looking at their evidence or looking at the screens that show them what`s going on in the case.
BEHAR: Yes.
SMITH: They`re focused on the evidence and a lot less on her.
BEHAR: Ok when we come back I want to --
SMITH: Now let me -- let me --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: We`re going to take a break. We`ll come back. We still have a little more time to go over this. We`ll be right back. Ok.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Jada Pinkett Smith drops by to talk about how she and Will Smith continue to keep their marriage fresh after 14 happy years.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: So Brian tell me about what you made of the smile -- what the jury would make of the smiling, Brian. You were in the middle of telling me that.
RUSSELL: What I`ve noticed, Joy, is that the jury, as Ryan said, has actually sort of stopped looking at Casey`s emotional expressions, positive and negative. And if you were one of the attorneys in the case and if I were consulting with you, I would tell you that when an otherwise engaged jury like this one sort of stops seeming interested in a piece or source of information, that indicates to me that they have already made a conclusion about that piece or source of information.
And in this case with this defendant, I think that is not good for the defense because you have to keep in mind this is a death-qualified jury, Joy. And they tend to be less empathic toward defendants anyway.
BEHAR: Ok. Here`s another interesting part. One of the last witnesses to be called to the stand is the tattoo artist who tattooed the words "Bella Vita, in Italian that means "beautiful life", on her shoulder. Didn`t she do that while the kid was missing? And how bad does that make her look, Brian?
RUSSELL: Well, that makes her look very bad --
SMITH: That makes her look terrible.
BEHAR: Brian, the problem is -- your name is Ryan and Brian. Brian - -
KLIEMAN: Brian with a b.
BEHAR: So B, Brian with a B. Please.
RUSSELL: It looks terrible. It`s terribly inconsistent with the behavior of somebody whose child is either missing or known to have been -- known to have died just a little bit prior.
But you know, on top of that, once we all know that the child is missing at least, she still goes on and allows everybody she ever knew to go out looking for the child, spending lots of money, spending lots of resources. It all sort of feeds into the sociopathic understanding of her.
BEHAR: Do you have anything to say about the tattoo?
KLIEMAN: The tattoo is certainly very bad for Casey Anthony. Very, very bad because if you`re missing a child, the idea that you think life is beautiful is really not such a good thing from the defense point of view.
BEHAR: That`s right.
KLIEMAN: But you also are dealing with a very immature young woman who whether the child died by accident or whether the child died by homicide at her own hand, this is a young woman who is very troubled in many ways.
BEHAR: Well, she`s not grieving. She`s partying.
KLIEMAN: Either way she should be grieving.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Her friends say she was acting like nothing happened. She`s getting tattoos. The whole thing is not good.
KLIEMAN: Well, it`s conduct unbecoming a mother who`s just lost her child.
SMITH: Right.
BEHAR: Yes. It`s totally inappropriate and doesn`t look good. If I were on the jury, I would really be wondering about that.
Now, is there a reason they kept the tattoo artist until the end, Ryan?
SMITH: I do think so, and I think it`s because it creates such a powerful statement. We don`t know if he`s going to testify. But I could see the prosecution bringing him up and saying here is the tattoo of a "beautiful life", driving home the point to the jury, folks, you saw the physical evidence we brought in to you, but really our case is circumstantial.
This is about a woman who lies. Over and over again. And now she wants you to believe that it`s an accident. Look at what she did on day 16 or 17. She had this tattoo made, "beautiful life". Folks, don`t you think that`s a beautiful life without her daughter?
By making that last, they let that kind of statement, that kind of testimony stand out in the jury`s minds, I think.
BEHAR: I can`t wait for the defense. I`d like to see how they`re going to counteract this stuff.
KLIEMAN: Well, the defense has a tough road to hoe, not only from bringing expert to expert to expert, but also is Casey going to testify. If I`m trying this case, no way.
BEHAR: No way.
KLIEMAN: No way.
BEHAR: Ok. Thanks, everybody. We`ll be right back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up next on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, as pressure builds for Anthony Weiner to resign, the congressman checks into rehab. We`ll have all the latest.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Comedian and "30 Rock" star Tracy Morgan has come under fire for going on a homophobic rant during a standup performance in Nashville, reportedly saying he`d kill his son if he were gay, among his other so- called jokes.
Here to talk about this and other stories in the news are Rita Moreno, actress and star of the new TV Land show "Happily Divorced." Comedian Jim Breuer and Rebecca Dana, senior correspondent for "Newsweek" and "The Daily Beast."
Jim, you`re a comic.
JIM BREUER, COMEDIAN: Yes.
BEHAR: Let`s talk. He`s known for his off-color humor. But did he go too far this time?
BREUER: I -- listen, Tracy doesn`t sit down and write. He goes off the cuff. Did he go -- did he say something maybe he didn`t want to say? Probably. But to scrutinize and get this far out -- listen, I said I was sorry. I said I was sorry, I got crazy. I was in Nashville, there were (inaudible) people and I got crazy and I took it too far. I just -- (inaudible), I said, Tina Fey, you fed me, you put me on television, I`m sorry.
BEHAR: Well, the only thing -- that`s very good, Jim. The only thing about your theory is that he`s done this material before. So it`s not just a spontaneous moment here.
BREUER: Now, that I did not hear.
BEHAR: Yes.
BREUER: As far as like stabbing and that whole thing. I don`t know.
BEHAR: I don`t know about specifically, but the homophobic rant is not something new.
BREUER: Listen, Joy. If you -- also with comics like Red Foxx and the -- people pay to see Tracy Morgan. If you think you`re getting a "30 Rock" guy, you`re out of your mind. So who do you blame? The publicist or the people booking him? Because he`s worked places. He`s worked Carnegie Hall going I can`t believe he was talking about this and that and I thought I was getting -- I told you, I`m from the Bronx, I`m from the ghetto.
BEHAR: Rebecca, you have another point of view on this?
REBECCA DANA, NEWSWEEK: Well, I`m not sure the two options here are "30 Rock" guy or raging homophobe. I think it is fair to hold people to certain standards and to at least hold them accountable for the things they say. In the case of Tracy Morgan, I wonder if thou doth protest too much. He seems to really, really, really hate gay people.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Is that what you`re implying there?
DANA: I have no idea, but how do -- where does there come from? I don`t know.
BEHAR: It comes from ignorance when he says things like it`s a complete choice to be homosexual. That`s just ignorance.
RITA MORENO, ACTRESS: I don`t think it necessarily reflects the fact that he might somehow be secretly gay. I think that`s an easy kind of answer. I think essentially it`s somebody who is really -- who is very angry. A lot of comics are very angry. They`re filled with rage. And when they work, as you say he works, which is off the top of his head -- Michael --
BEHAR: Michael Richards.
MORENO: Right. It comes out.
BEHAR: Comedian Michael Richards.
MORENO: The point is, these kind of apologies about this is not really me -- well, I want to say, who are you then, Steve Martin?
BEHAR: Yes, it really is you, is the point.
MORENO: It`s you.
BEHAR: It`s you.
DANA: It`s sort of like how the truth comes out when you get drunk. The truth comes out when you get on stage and just deliver --
(CROSSTALK)
BREUER: I`ve known Tracy since 1990. I spent three and a half years with him at "Saturday Night Live," rooming together. He`s never, ever in his life preached hatred towards anyone or anything. This is -- he goes for shock humor. Have you ever seen his standup? You go oh, my -- oh, my -- he talks -- and the --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: But you do that so well. Read his apology right here.
BREUER: I`ll tell you here what he said. I`m not a hateful person. And I don`t condone any -- what`s this word say? Violence. Against others. This clearly went too far, and it was not funny in any context.
BEHAR: OK. Let`s move on to the next story.
BREUER: Tina Fey, put me back in that show.
BEHAR: OK. Now, beleaguered New York Congressman Anthony Weiner took a leave of absence and checked into an undisclosed treatment facility after more explicit photos of him surfaced over the weekend, as did news that he tweeted with a 17-year-old girl. So he admits that he tweeted with the 17- year-old girl. But he claims --
MORENO: Did he know she was 17?
BEHAR: I think maybe he knew. But he says it wasn`t inappropriate, it wasn`t sexual. But was it inappropriate at all? And how does he know it`s not some old balding guy on the other end -- he doesn`t know who`s on the other end. It`s ridiculous.
DANA: It`s absurd. Just -- this story has officially taken a turn for the sad and ugly.
BEHAR: Yes.
DANA: And it`s just a train wreck, and there are bodies on the highway. It was -- maybe it was fun when it started. As to whether he knew she was 17, he said in his initial press conference that to the best of his knowledge, he didn`t exchange any explicit sexts or tweets with anyone underage. But I just want to, like, avert my eyes. These pictures of Huma, who looks like she`s crying under her sunglasses, it`s just awful.
MORENO: I have a theory -- it`s not a theory. I just think -- I`m an actress for a reason, and I feel I understand a great deal about behavior that perhaps other people don`t. And I -- you know what the thrill was for him? I bet you anything. I spoke to a psychologist about this. He said, I`ll bet you -- nobody`s examined this -- the real thrill is not exposing his member, as it were. The real thrill is the risk he`s taking knowing he`s a smart guy, knowing that at some point or another he is going to be exposed. And this man has shot himself in the penis.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Yes, he has, Rita. Yes, he has.
MORENO: Yes.
BEHAR: Do you think he`s sick or horny?
MORENO: No, no, no, I don`t think he`s -- really I don`t think that sex is behind all this. I think this is -- because he has apparently an enormous member, I think --
(CROSSTALK)
MORENO: Hey, come on.
BEHAR: It`s not that big.
MORENO: You don`t think so?
BREUER: It`s ego.
BEHAR: Not that big.
MORENO: No, no, I don`t think so. Honestly, I think it`s someone who feels so small inside that he uses that as a way of feeling powerful.
BREUER: But how many politicians do we have to go over year after -- it`s "Scarface" over and over. It`s -- first you get the power, then you get the money, then you show your penis! Because I can get away with it, baby. I make decisions. It`s power. You can`t -- they can`t control the power.
MORENO: And that`s certainly part of it for sure.
BREUER: They`re out of their minds, all of them.
BEHAR: But not all of them do it. Some can control the power.
(CROSSTALK)
BREUER: Thank you, Mr. Weiner.
BEHAR: There`s a new action figure of Weiner out there now. It`s -- really -- if it wasn`t for his name, I think he wouldn`t be in so much trouble.
BREUER: Oh, I think he would.
BEHAR: The Weiner name is wrong. I mean, you can`t get away with anything like that.
BREUER: That alone, Joy, shows how stupid this human is to be a politician. Your name is Weiner and you are taking a chance of taking a picture of your wiener and putting it out there? What`s the matter with you?
BEHAR: It`s true.
DANA: I think it just explains his whole obsession. Like you know, he was born with this name, and he cannot let go of his penis. It`s just all he has to do is just clutch it and take pictures of himself. I think, you know, I`m not sure it`s risk. I think it might also be hubris, that these people just think they can do whatever they want and never have to pay a consequence.
MORENO: That`s part of it, but I do -- I think it`s an illness. I think the man is sick. And I think -- I don`t even know that he`s going to get healed. That`s a tough thing to get over.
BEHAR: I think she`s right. Because you know, do you ever see a flasher on the subway? Somebody who just shows you his weenie? And you`re like, what is wrong with you, you know what I mean? Is there anything lower than someone who exhibits his parts? Let`s think about it. And what`s the difference if you do it in a tweet or you do it on the subway or you do it in Central Park? It`s the same concept.
BREUER: Or is it the fact the more popular you get, just like a star, as I became more popular, more women throw themselves at you. And you can`t control the temptations and everything. And the more power you get, the more you think you get away with it.
MORENO: You know, but he did say that his wife knew about this predilection and he promised her -- he did say that once, he promised her he wouldn`t do it again.
(CROSSTALK)
DANA: He`s done nothing other than this as far as I can tell for the last year. Everywhere he goes, this is what he does.
BEHAR: OK, now did you see the Tonys last night?
DANA: Yes.
BEHAR: "The Book of Mormon" won quite a bit, including best musical. A lot of awards. And one of the stars performed this song during the ceremony. Just watch the song.
(MUSIC)
BEHAR: OK, I believe that God has a plan for all of us, I believe that plan involves me getting my own planet. It`s really funny. I mean, the show is fantastic. I have seen the show. I don`t think you have seen it.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: OK. But is it offensive to Mormons? That is the discussion I want to have. Because I watched it, and I laughed my butt off when I saw it. And then it became, oh, it`s really a sweet show about, you know, redemption and helping other people. But when you listen to the song and now America knows the song, which is I believe -- and I`m a Mormon and I believe everything and anything. I believe that I come from another planet. It makes fun of Mormonism, doesn`t it? I mean -- go ahead.
BREUER: I haven`t seen the show. All I heard it was the funniest thing in the world. And you -- going into it, you already know it`s a comedy -- unlike coming to see me, you don`t know what you`re going to get. But going to see this--
BEHAR: Who`s that, Tracy again?
BREUER: Yes. If you are going to go see it, you know what you`re getting--
MORENO: That`s an illness, too.
(CROSSTALK)
BREUER: I haven`t seen Mormons complain about it yet or heard Mormons in an uproar.
MORENO: We probably will. I`d love to hear what you have to say about it.
BEHAR: Does it hurt Romney?
DANA: I have no idea whether the show hurts Romney. Probably not, I don`t think. I mean, yes, it makes fun of Mormons. And awesome -- you know, everybody should be made fun of. Jews are made fun of, Christians are made fun of all the time. We should be able to laugh about religion, be able to laugh about anything.
BEHAR: Agreed. OK, so we all agree on that. You agree, too?
BREUER: I highly agree.
BEHAR: And Tracy must agree.
(CROSSTALK)
BREUER: Everybody -- making fun of everybody.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Also, FYI, Tracy is doing a PSA now for GLAAD.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Thanks. You can see Rita on the premiere of "Happily Divorced" Wednesday night on TV Land, and Jim can be heard as the voice -- another voice, of the Crow in "Zookeeper" in theaters July 8th. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: She`s a talented actress, a loving mother, and half of a Hollywood power couple. And she`s the star of the TNT series "Hawthorne." Take a look at a clip of the series premiere, which I warn you is very intense. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JADA PINKETT SMITH, ACTRESS: Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking French).
SMITH: You sure you got the right number?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ll make this meeting with Morrison (ph) quick.
SMITH: I miss you already.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I leave in five hours, I miss you like crazy.
SMITH: All right. Because I`m going to take a hot bath, and I suggest you get home before it gets cold. Because that`s when I get out, and that`s when you miss out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, really? Well, you just make sure you keep my side of the bed warm, OK?
SMITH: Oh, what`s mine is --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Here with me now is Jada Pinkett Smith. Welcome to the show, Jada.
SMITH: Thank you.
BEHAR: So I watched the show last night, and that scene is very intense and very scary, and you get hurt. And -- it`s awful --
SMITH: Yes.
BEHAR: That -- but the show`s very good.
SMITH: Thank you.
BEHAR: And I was talking to you today earlier about it, because we were talking backstage about how the fact that you`re pregnant in the -- in the beginning of the episode.
SMITH: Yes.
BEHAR: And you`re getting married. And a big belly.
SMITH: Right.
BEHAR: And a gown. And how I must be getting old, because -- I mean, back in the day --
SMITH: You got married before you got pregnant.
BEHAR: Yes, but -- I mean, I know. But if you were pregnant -- believe me, plenty of them were pregnant.
SMITH: Right. Right.
BEHAR: But you would get it done right away so that you could hide it.
SMITH: Hide it.
BEHAR: Now it`s like I`ll shout it from the rooftops.
SMITH: Yes, it`s a different time.
BEHAR: Incredible, the times how they`ve changed.
SMITH: A different time, definitely.
BEHAR: Do you prefer the old days, or would you like it -- like it now?
SMITH: You know, I prefer that whatever makes you happy, you know what I mean? Whatever makes you happy. There are definitely people have certain standards that work for them. And at the end of the day, you got to do what makes you happy. What`s your contract, you know? What`s your get-down? What are your rules?
BEHAR: Right.
SMITH: I think too many times we`ve made mistakes in trying to follow the rules of other people. And, you know, it just comes to a point where you have to do what makes you happy. As long as you`re not hurting anybody.
BEHAR: Yes.
SMITH: You know, it`s for the better good. You know.
BEHAR: For the greater good. Always.
SMITH: For the greater good.
BEHAR: It`s like, you`re marrying a white guy.
SMITH: Yep.
BEHAR: And you`re pregnant. It`s like -- welcome to the 21st century.
SMITH: That`s right. That`s right.
BEHAR: That`s the way it goes now.
SMITH: That`s the way it goes. And I think they took a little time to figure out if they were actually going do it or not, because they weren`t really seeing each other anymore. And at the end of the last season, she found out she was pregnant. And so they really got married because of the pregnancy.
BEHAR: Well, is it his --
SMITH: Oh, yes, it`s his. Yes. It`s his.
BEHAR: Because I know there`s a little menage a-trois coming up between you and Vartan (ph) and Marc Anthony.
SMITH: Marc Anthony, yes.
BEHAR: But not a real menage. We don`t know.
SMITH: No, not a real manage.
BEHAR: But not a real manage, but he comes back into the picture, Marc Anthony.
SMITH: Yes, because after Christina`s attacked, he`s a detective. He comes in to figure out what happened and he`s very upset about it.
BEHAR: I like that.
SMITH: Yes.
BEHAR: That`s a great -- a volatile scene that`s going come up between the three of you.
SMITH: Yes.
BEHAR: I can imagine. I`ve only seen this one.
SMITH: Right. It gets hot and heavy. We deal with some real issues this year. I mean, it`s our third season. We decided to really push the envelope and go for it. It`s our do or die season.
BEHAR: Yes. Now you and Will --
SMITH: Yes.
BEHAR: Seem to be called a power couple in the industry. What does that mean to you when people say you`re a power couple?
SMITH: You know, I don`t know. I guess just the talents that we have and we pool together. And what we`re able to produce together would quantify power of some kind.
BEHAR: I guess so. It`s also if your movies make money. His movies always make a lot of money. You`re a successful actress.
SMITH: Yes. I think, you know, our kids and --
BEHAR: Oh, the kids!
SMITH: The things we do as far as they`re concerned. And I just think all the projects that we -- we produced "Karate Kid" together. I think all the projects we kind of do together. And our separate, you know, success, as well.
BEHAR: Yes.
SMITH: When you bring us together, it is quite special.
BEHAR: And when you bring in the two kids -- I mean, the two kids are very successful also.
SMITH: Yes.
BEHAR: Your son was on "The View" a few -- several months ago. He even sent us -- gave us a present, all of us, a photograph that he had done of the China -- of the wall of China.
SMITH: Yes.
BEHAR: What a delightful kid he was. I mean, it`s fascinating to me that you could have two kids like that and they could seem to be so well adjusted. I don`t know the truth. I`m not living with you.
SMITH: Right.
BEHAR: So you have to tell me.
SMITH: You know, if I tell you -- I`ll say of course I`m going to tell you they`re well adjusted.
(LAUGHTER)
SMITH: You know what I mean? But I mean, we try. They`ve grown up in this industry, it`s all they know. And Will and I have tried very hard to raise them in understanding, self-respect and self-love, which they then understand and have respect for all those that are around them. And they`re just really wonderful human beings. They really are.
BEHAR: I mean, I worry about kids in the business, because I interview so many child stars who have really gotten into trouble. I mean, look -- think about it -- Miley Cyrus, well, she`s not doing that great. She hasn`t been able to make the transition from, you know, the young Disney star to the little sex goddess. It`s been rough on her.
SMITH: You know, think about it, though, Joy. I mean, we go through those kind of rough transitions whether we`re in front of the camera or not. You know, going from --
BEHAR: That`s true.
SMITH: Yes. Going from being a young girl and to becoming a woman and figuring out who we are and blossoming our sexuality and sensuality and trying to understand -- you know, the thing about it is that you have to live a little bit of who you are not to know who you are. And so I think the only unfortunate part is that these young people have to do it under a microscope. But it`s no different than what you and I went through.
BEHAR: That`s probably true.
SMITH: I mean, shoot -- 18? Somebody had a -- a microscope on me? Miley don`t have nothing on Jada Pinkett Smith, I`ll tell you that right now.
BEHAR: I want to hear more about that. Let me take a break. When we come back, maybe we`ll find out a little more about Ms. Jada. Stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Jada Pinkett Smith. You know, you were talking about when you were 18. What was the wildest thing you did when you were 18, Jada?
SMITH: Let me put it this way, I won`t tell you the wildest thing that I`ve done. But hey, you know, I`ve had my time with alcohol. We were just talking about it when you were saying oh, I can just have a few glasses of wine. I said, man, I wish I could do that. You said why, you`ll go overboard? I go way overboard.
BEHAR: Really?
SMITH: Yeah. Way overboard. I had to stop drinking like 13 years ago.
BEHAR: Oh, no kidding.
SMITH: I like to drink, a lot.
BEHAR: What`s your drink?
SMITH: Vodka, straight.
BEHAR: Oh, yeah. Straight vodka.
SMITH: Straight vodka.
BEHAR: No vermouth in there, nothing? Just -- no--
(CROSSTALK)
SMITH: Throw it back. Throw it back.
BEHAR: So you stopped drinking altogether 13 years ago?
SMITH: I stopped drinking altogether 13 years ago, but alcohol was definitely a vice for me. It made for a lot of good times.
BEHAR: I`m sure it did, I`m sure it did. How long are you married now?
SMITH: 14.
BEHAR: Oh, so you stopped drinking--
SMITH: 14 years. Actually, it`s been longer than that, because I stopped drinking before I got pregnant with Jaden.
BEHAR: Really? Usually women have to drink to get pregnant.
SMITH: Yeah, no, not me. That`s a whole another story. I don`t have to drink to get pregnant, let me tell you.
BEHAR: Oh, really? Tell me about that.
SMITH: Yeah.
BEHAR: OK. What about the sexting that goes on these days? What do you think about that? Anthony Weiner this week and last week, in so much trouble. Do you worry about like your kids getting involved with that sort of thing?
SMITH: You know, the technology--
BEHAR: Sexting, you know, scary.
SMITH: Technology today, I mean, there`s a lot of sexting going on with kids and it`s not a big deal. You know, you get kids that are, you know, taking pictures with their shirts off and talking to kids, you know, what`s the little online chat thing, the little iChat, you get on iChat, they`re doing all kinds of stuff on iChat. You worry about it, but that`s why you have to stay in conversation with your children about it, like, come on now, you know, and I`m constantly in communication, especially with my son now. He`s turning 13. And my oldest son, Trey, just graduated from high school. And you know, so we`ve definitely have--
BEHAR: How old is Willow?
SMITH: Willow is 10. She`ll be 11 in October.
BEHAR: So you still have a little bit of a reprieve before she goes--
SMITH: With Willow. Yes. And I -- let me tell you.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: And she came up with this great song and everything.
SMITH: Yes.
BEHAR: You didn`t even know it was happening.
SMITH: Well, you know, well, I did. I just didn`t know it was as big of a hit as it became. It was like, oh, yes, that`s cute, let`s put that out. It`s like, whoa, it just blew up.
BEHAR: Well, now you know everything the Smiths touch becomes a hit, including you and your show, which is terrific. So catch Jada in season three of "Hawthorne," premiering tomorrow night on TNT. Thank you for watching. Good night, everybody. Catch it.
END
