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Joy Behar Page

Casey Anthony Murder Trial; Interview With Tatum O`Neal

Aired June 16, 2011 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, it`s a battle of the experts in the Casey Anthony trial as the defense trots out their witnesses. So who`s science will the jury side with?

Then, Joy analyzes the odd dynamic between Casey and her attorney, Jose Baez.

Plus Tatum O`Neal opens up about her tumultuous relationship with her father.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOY BEHAR, HOST: Why are you upset? What makes you so anxious when you talk --

TATUM O`NEAL, ACTRESS: Because my dad is flying in tonight, literally, and we`re going to stay at the same hotel and we`re going to go tomorrow and do Regis. And it`s going to be fun and we`re going to be happy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That and more starting right now.

BEHAR: Casey Anthony`s defense team began their case today, three years to the day that Caylee was last seen. Here now to talk about what happened today are Marcia Clark, former prosecutor in the O.J. Simpson trial, author of "Guilt by Association; Debra Opri, defense attorney; plus Ryan Smith, host of "In Session" on TruTV and he`s outside the courthouse in Orlando. Ok.

There was a lot of drama in the court today. Casey`s attorney, Jose Baez started a firestorm by asking this question. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: Were you asked to conduct a paternity test for Lee Anthony as to Caylee Anthony -- being a potential father of Caylee Anthony?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: May we approach?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You may.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: The prosecution very angrily objected, the jury sent out and watch what happens next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEFF ASHTON, ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: What was the relevance about that other than to suggest to the jury that there`s some information out there that this jury has not heard? How is there a good faith basis relevance of that?

BAEZ: I never asked that question, judge. I`m going through the results and the work she`s done in this case. That is part of the work she`s done in this case.

ASHTON: That is not the question counsel asked and he darned well knows it. If he wants to ask this witness whether Mr. Lee Anthony was excluded as the father of Caylee, that`s fine; that`s in the report. More power to him.

But that wasn`t the question he asked. That wasn`t the implication he was trying to leave with this jury.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: Wow, Ryan.

RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION": Oh.

BEHAR: Who won this fight, Ryan?

SMITH: You know what, the defense won this fight. I`m going to tell you why. First of all, Jeff Ashton got admonished by the judge for being so feisty and interrupting.

But here`s the thing. The defense asked that question, the objection came and the jury was dismissed for lunch so they have that thought in their mind as they go for lunch. When they came back, Baez was still able to ask that question; Lee Anthony was excluded as a possible father for Caylee. But the thought was still out there. And you think it`s the undertone of sexual abuse that`s out there make the jury members think something`s not quite right in this family and that implication was still out there no matter what the objection is.

BEHAR: Right. Debra, do you agree this is the defense`s way of hinting that Lee molested Casey? Debra.

DEBRA OPRI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it`s much ado about nothing. It`s the big build-up, and then it`s like plop. It`s like, ok, you had a paternity test. He`s the father? No.

And if this is the best they have, it didn`t mean anything to me other than grandstanding and prejudicial.

BEHAR: Go ahead.

SMITH: You know what. You don`t have to -- here`s the thing. The point wasn`t to say and this was a little bit -- it was a little bit clever by the defense. The point wasn`t to say that Lee molested Casey. It was, to bring out the idea possibly that there`s something not quite right in the family. Remember, the defense here is saying that there was sexual abuse going on between George and Casey. If they can get the jury to think that way --

BEHAR: And then.

SMITH: -- that helps their case.

OPRI: And then.

BEHAR: Marcia, if Debra is right, why was the paternity test done to begin with anyway, then? What was the point of it, Marcia?

MARCIA CLARK, AUTHOR, "GUILT BY ASSOCIATION": Ok. This goes to the crux of the matter Joy. If the -- the defense wants to imply to the question that someone had a reason for thinking that the paternity test had to be done, i.e. the FBI suspected for one reason or another that he might be the father, that there might be molestation.

The thing the prosecution should do at this point is point out that the FBI got that information from her, not from themselves, not because an investigator saw things that were indicative. You know, go right after it. Go right after the implication.

BEHAR: Right. Ok. A DNA analyst was on the stand this morning. She tested Casey`s clothes for blood. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HEATHER SEUBERT, FBI DNA ANALYST: Q34 was identified also as a pair of pants and they were actually light blue pants in color and that item had faint brown yellowish brown spots contained on those pants which were tested for the presence of blood and tested negative for the presence of blood.

BAEZ: Was there any blood on any of the clothing that you received from the Anthony home?

SEUBERT: No sir, not on those items.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: Ok. There was no blood on the car carpet; the shovel, the spare tire cover or Caylee`s shorts either. So Ryan, does this mean anything at all? What does this mean? There`s no blood.

SMITH: Well, I`ll tell you what. For the defense it means while there`s no blood, they also excluded Casey as parts of DNA from that trunk and there was no blood on the clothes.

Here`s the problem. The prosecution on cross-examination got her to admit with the clothes, the clothes had been washed so that could wash off some of the blood. Also in the car trunk, there was decomposition and that could degrade the results that they get.

It was strong. It was a good move by the defense because there`s not a lot of direct DNA connecting Casey to Caylee; but still, not extremely powerful.

BEHAR: No. Marcia. The analyst said there`s no DNA evidence on the duct tape or anywhere else. Now, can the state prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Casey did it without DNA evidence? Marcia?

CLARK: Sure, of course, yes. Definitely. Although I know that cases, starting about 16 years ago, people started to believe that DNA was required for all cases -- that is not the fact. And in a case like this in particular where you had the body triple plastic bagged, the non-finding of DNA is not that significant.

Also, I should point out that they did find fluids consistent with decomposition in the car. And the finding of that fluid is devastating to the defense because what else does it prove other than the fact something dead was in the car, you can fill in the rest of the blanks.

BEHAR: But it could be anything dead. It could have been an animal, now? How can they prove it was a human being?

CLARK: Well, it could have been but -- right, ok. But who carries a dead animal in the trunk. And under all other circumstances, remember this, you know -- I mean I don`t want you to answer the question of who carries a dead animal in the trunk.

BEHAR: It`s a rhetorical question. I understand.

CLARK: It`s a rhetorical question. But it`s a circumstantial case. And what that means, Joy, in legal parlance is there`s a lot of little bits. If you attack every little bit individually, you might come up with an excuse for each little bit separately. But when you put all of these circumstances together, you come up with a devastating picture of guilt.

BEHAR: Right. It doesn`t look good. But you know -- Debra, do you think the jury understood all the science talk. I mean I heard that several spectators fell asleep in the audience. First, they`re clamoring to get in and then they fall asleep.

(CROSSTALK)

OPRI: It`s a very dry part of the case at this point in time -- the forensics, the DNA. What the jury is going to understand is this. I`m looking at a smell of decomposition in a trunk. I`m looking at duct tape. I`m looking at chloroform. I`m looking at a dead child that went missing for 31 days and a mother who`s out partying and getting a tattoo. As Marcia said, it`s the sum total of all these little bits and pieces of guilt and it is devastating and it is overwhelming.

And the defense, in their defense, they have the best argument now with DNA and the fact is, it`s a good argument but in the end, what does it matter. There`s so much else to convict her.

BEHAR: Ok. Now Ryan, the defense wants to add a last minute witness. Who is this guy and why are they dragging him in now and why is he important to the case? Who is he?

SMITH: I`ll tell you, from what we know his name is Vasco de Gama Thompson. And he`s a man that placed three or four calls to George Anthony`s cell phone -- or they had calls together three or four times -- on the day before Cindy reported that Caylee was missing.

Now, George`s lawyers come back and basically said George never called this guy. They never had any conversations. The defense hasn`t said anything about how long their conversations were or who called whom. The defense is basically -- George`s lawyers are basically saying this is not somebody that George even knows.

But I guess what the defense is doing here, they say they found this information late, there`s some connection here and this guy has a criminal record. He served 10 years in jail for kidnapping. He`s a bad guy in many ways in terms of his record. That connection to George is not a good thing in this case. We still don`t know precisely what he would testify to if he takes the stand.

BEHAR: We`ll probably be covering that next week then. We`ll find out more about that guy.

But just in closing, Debra, it was a big day for Baez, the first day presenting his case. How do you think he did?

OPRI: It`s always a big day for the defense on Day One. How did I personally think he did as an attorney? I think you have to have a complete grasp of things and I think his questions were a little -- I`m, not going to say shoddy -- but a little long-winded, not short and clip getting the evidence in and getting it out. I think in the end, he did an ok job. He`s doing his best for this client and with this case. I give him a B plus.

BEHAR: How about you, Marcia, what did you think? Ok?

CLARK: I think it`s ok. I think it`s Standard Defense 101, point to all the things they didn`t do. Point to what they don`t have. So if they put in 100 pieces of evidence for the prosecution, the defense will always say, where`s 101? They`re doing that.

BEHAR: Ok. Thanks everyone. We`ll have more on the Casey Anthony trial when we return.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: As the defense in the Casey Anthony trial begins presenting its case, questions continue to come up about the bizarre dynamics between Casey and her lawyer, Jose Baez.

Here to talk about it are Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and a marriage and family therapist; and Debra Opri, defense attorney.

Ladies, this is so odd. Casey seems to be acting, first of all, let`s start with this one. Casey seems to be acting as Baez`s paralegal in court. she`s taking notes, she`s filing papers. I mean, who does that? Who does that?

(CROSSTALK)

BETHANY MARSHALL, PHSYCOANALYST: I would take a look at this. I would look at this through the lens of criminality. Criminals always feel that they`re smarter than everybody else, ok? They`re the holder of truth with the investigators, that`s why she lied; she`s the holder of the files.

Also, she`s very infantile. So you think of this as like little girl putting on mommy`s makeup and pretending she`s an adult. So I think it`s her superiority.

BEHAR: Wow.

BEBRA OPRI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I want to look at it through the defense eyelashes here.

BEHAR: Go ahead.

OPRI: I think that he should have rigorously taught her from the get- go, they did it with Michael Jackson and you sit there and you hold your hands folded and you look down or look straight ahead or take notes but I don`t need an assistant.

So this is client control issues that I would be very concerned about.

BEHAR: Well, there`s more to this story because Casey and Baez have often been seen tete-a-tete in court and you know some -- and some say they`re acting flirtatiously with each other.

Bethany what does that indicate to you? What about the body language?

MARSHALL: Well perhaps he`s in love with the part of her that`s making him famous and perhaps she`s doing what sociopaths do.

BEHAR: That`s good.

MARSHALL: Sociopaths only relate to others on the basis of power rather than affection. They don`t depend on others or use affectionate bonds to get their needs met. Instead, they use power and control.

And as we know, sexuality is a very powerful thing. She thinks she`s in charge because of the lying, because of the sexuality, the flirting, being the paralegal. In her own mind, she`s like the ringleader in the circus of filth. That`s what she is.

(CROSSTALK)

OPRI: Well, we -- if we step away from her and look from his viewpoint. He is an attorney who -- for whatever reason is feeling very protective of her. I think she should rightfully assume an advocate`s role and don`t diminish his standing as her advocate, as her defense attorney on any level and hugging her and touching her. There are rules in court. You have a mode of decorum.

And he`s got to really keep himself in check because I know he`s nervous. He`s in the public eye; he`s handling one of the larger defense cases now. And but he`s got to really keep himself in check and keep that decorum all the way through or his experience and his judgment are going to be seriously questioned.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: Bethany.

MARSHALL: You know what, Deb, though, she can turn on a dime. But that`s why she`s in court, right? So don`t you think it`s a delicate balance issue to handle her?

(CROSSTALK)

OPRI: Client control issues.

MARSHALL: But client control --

OPRI: No it`s only about client --

(CROSSTALK)

MARSHALL: In his mind, he could feel that if he hugs her and if he flirts back, if he appeals to her narcissism, then, she`ll be more under control. In a way when I see when people in love with criminal attitudes - -

(CROSSTALK)

OPRI: But - Bethany you`re keeping words, you`re using words of sociopath, criminality, narcissist, these are all words that the media and the professionals have labeled her. But you know, this is a girl who basically is in his jurisdiction now. She`s in a courtroom and there are rules. There are ways to conduct yourself; and he should have set the parameters and I don`t think he did.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: All right. Ok wait, ladies.

MARSHALL: Ok.

BEHAR: Listen to this, there have been rumors that Casey and Baez had a sexual relationship when she was previously out on bond. Ok, do you think that`s possible?

MARSHALL: Rumors.

BEHAR: Debra?

OPRI: Rumors.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: Rumors. Well, I`ll read you what it says. Let me read you a couple things.

OPRI: Go ahead.

BEHAR: A prison staff reprimanded Baez repeatedly for hugging Casey during jailhouse visits. Well, that could be just fatherly I guess. This one really is too much. They reportedly shared a piece of licorice through a hole in the glass partition. Like "Lady and the Tramp". What`s up with that? Who does that with a client?

OPRI: There`s no -- there`s no admissions that there is an intimate relationship. But again, his conduct is questionable. He hasn`t drawn a line in the sand.

And if he`s feeling very comfortable with her, very protective over here, you know, the reality is he has got to keep himself in check.

(CROSSTALK)

OPRI: Now as far as her conduct goes, her conduct is according to how he controls her and this is the way it`s got to be.

BEHAR: All right. Bethany.

MARSHALL: Deb, you know, another way to look at this is co-narcissism because we know with Casey Anthony that narcissism borderline and antisocial cluster together as a group of traits. We know with him he`s very narcissistically gratified at taking on this case.

So what happens when two narcissists get together? We saw this with Anna Nicole Smith and Howard Stern, they (INAUDIBLE) each other -- they self-aggrandize, they admire.

(CROSSTALK)

OPRI: What happens when a lawyer wants to get a job?

Bethany -- Bethany listen.

MARSHALL: Yes.

OPRI: What happens when an attorney gets a gig, he gets a high profile exposure for potential future business and takes on a case, we don`t know how he`s being paid, how much if he`s being paid, and he takes on a case?

I don`t see it because I choose not to see it as two narcissists. I see it as a somewhat inexperienced attorney in terms of controlling clients and I see it as a client who has serious issues and need to control.

(CROSSTALK)

MARSHALL: Ok.

BEHAR: Well, you`re the lawyer. You`re the lawyer Debra so what if he was sleeping with her.

OPRI: Yes.

BEHAR: What does that say about him as her lawyer?

OPRI: It`s -- if he is sleeping with her during his period of representation, it is actionable by the state bar. There`s been no evidence of it. I`m not even going to take a step and accuse him of it.

BEHAR: We`re not accusing.

OPRI: But if he had a relationship -- well, if he had -- and I don`t -- I didn`t suggest you did Joy. But if he had a relationship with her prior to this representation, the bottom line is he wasn`t representing her during it but he`s never admitted it.

So we have a lot of conjecture. But right now, I as an attorney am looking at what`s going on inside the courtroom and I think she should look forward and be quiet.

BEHAR: All right.

Ok, when he was asked on "Geraldo at Large" if he had an inappropriate relationship with Casey, he said, quote, "I am not going to dignify that with an answer."

Ok, we`ll continue this in just a minute. I`m just saying.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on the JOY BEHAR SHOW, actress Tatum O`Neal talks candidly about the tumultuous to relationship with her dad, Ryan O`Neal.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: I`m back with my panel. We`re talking about the unusual dynamic with Casey Anthony and her lawyer, Jose Baez.

Ok. Now, from the beginning, Casey`s family seemed suspicious of Baez` intentions in the case. Listen to what her brother, Lee, had to say during a jailhouse interview played in court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, BROTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: He told us that, you know, his number one focus is you.

That his secondary focus is Caylee.

The truth is it`s a business.

CASEY ANTHONY, ACCUSED OF MURDERING HER DAUGHTER: Yes.

L. ANTHONY: The truth is, that the most important thing for him, his first focus is himself.

Then you, then Caylee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: You think, Debra, that Baez is using Casey to make a name for himself and that`s what that conversation sounds like he`s implying?

OPRI: Joy, just because Lee says it so, it doesn`t make it so. The bottom line is whatever Lee is telling his sister, that`s his opinion. But an attorney is always going to tell the client, because that`s his job, you are my first priority. And the priority is proving his client is not guilty.

As far as him saying my concern is for your daughter, you know, that sounds good, but he is an advocate. As far as the brother saying he`s all out for himself. Well, we don`t know if Baez took this case on a zero payment or minimal.

BEHAR: Pro-bono, I heard.

(CROSSTALK)

OPRI: We do know that he`s -- yes he`s working -- he`s working his -- let me finish. He`s working his tush off to get her off. And I admire the work he`s putting in. I just don`t know if he can win.

BEHAR: Ok. All right. Bethany, let me ask you something. If Casey thought that she was Baez` number one priority, doesn`t it make sense how she might develop feelings for him? After all, one of the things we`ve been talking about is her jealousy that the mother preferred the child to her. Now she has an advocate who likes her better than everybody. So that might cause her to have an attraction to the guy, right?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOLOGIST: I think that is an excellent point. First of all, Deb Opri, he`s not an experienced hotshot attorney like you, but before I throw him under the bus let me say that I do think --

OPRI: I`m not a hotshot, I swear, I`m not.

BEHAR: Ok.

MARSHALL: Yes, you are. Yes you are, ok.

I think Lee was right. What better reason for Casey to choose this attorney than to spite her family. Isn`t that the motivation behind the alleged homicide, to spite Cindy so that Cindy couldn`t have control of the granddaughter? So I think that when these --

OPRI: She`s got somebody who`s going to work hard for her. That`s it.

(CROSSTALK)

MARSHALL: She got someone who`s going to throw her family under the bus and that was very gratifying for her because that is what she enjoys doing.

BEHAR: By the way, this guy, Baez, interestingly enough, has a very checkered past himself. I mean I don`t know how that enters into the conversation.

OPRI: Well, I`m going to talk about that.

BEHAR: Well, we don`t have time.

(CROSSTALK)

MARSHALL: I think it does Joy, because -- Joy, that`s why I talked about co-narcissism because he didn`t pay child support payments. Right. You have the rest of the news.

(CROSSTALK)

OPRI: He is a licensed attorney now.

BEHAR: Ok ladies. Thank you so much for a lively conversation. We`ll be right back.

A.J. HAMMER, HLN HOST, "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT": Tonight on "Showbiz Tonight", we have the start of the defense today of Casey Anthony to talk about and those big burning questions in her murder trial.

You`ll see it 11:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific, right here on HLN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: Tatum O`Neal won an Oscar at age 10 starring opposite her dad, her father, Ryan in "Paper Moon," but a life filled with trauma soon followed. Two suicide attempts before age 13, an addiction to heroin, claims of abuse and decades-long estrangement from her father. Wow. But her new book, "Found: A Daughter`s Journey" reveals how she got sober and is reconciling with her father. It`s all chronicled in a docu-series "Ryan and Tatum" that begins airing this Sunday on Own. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TATUM O`NEAL: I have this way of pretending like everything is going to be OK because I know that he can`t deal with the real issues. I just don`t want to pretend anymore.

RYAN O`NEAL: I`m a little bit careful. I don`t want to give up what`s left of my heart and have her flee again. So the stakes are high. I just have to learn to trust her. I`m not sure if it`s possible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: Tatum O`Neal is with me right now. Welcome to the show, Tatum.

O`NEAL: Thank you, Joy.

BEHAR: Your life is like a Lifetime mini-series, honey.

O`NEAL: It has been, it`s been a two-hour E! Entertainment.

BEHAR: I mean, I was reading a little bit about the whole thing. I saw part of the docu-series which is very well done. Own is doing a good job on those.

O`NEAL: I think so, and I think as you get farther into the series, you start to see some very different things than you`ve ever seen in anything on the kind of genre that we`re doing, a docu-series, reality series, whatever you want to call it, you know? It`s different, for me at least.

BEHAR: Now, let`s talk about your father, Ryan, famous for -- In case people don`t know who he is.

O`NEAL: Right. "Love Story."

BEHAR: "Peyton Place." "Love Story." And of course, "Paper Moon" with you, where you were just so brilliant as a young actress.

O`NEAL: Thank you.

BEHAR: You were estranged from him for how many years?

O`NEAL: I sort of broke up, if you will, with my dad when I was 16.

BEHAR: 16.

O`NEAL: Moved out at 16.

BEHAR: You moved out or he moved out? I have two stories.

O`NEAL: Well, well, let`s see. He kind of left, and then I left. I left -- thank you. I left the family home, which where my brother was, but, yes, I guess he left.

BEHAR: He left.

O`NEAL: Yes. He left.

BEHAR: When I was reading the notes about what happened to you, first of all, your mother was a drug addict, I presume, yes?

O`NEAL: Yes. A great actress and also suffered from addiction.

BEHAR: Addiction. But when you were a child, under the age of 7, you were in her care, which was not very good care. So you and your brother, Griffin, were sort of at the mercy of a drug-addicted mother.

O`NEAL: And not really kind of in control. At that time, she was just really kind of in a bad place. So, yes. There were a lot of things that were happening around us that were very unfortunate.

BEHAR: What were the worst things that happened to you?

O`NEAL: People tell me -- I don`t remember a lot of things. But you know, people tell me that we were left in a bathroom for a weekend while she went to Vegas.

BEHAR: You don`t remember that?

O`NEAL: I don`t. I do remember getting locked in the garage for a day or two, maybe, and eating -- in those days, they had a meat they called gains burgers (ph) and my brother and I got into those and we threw light bulbs, and we got into a lot of trouble.

BEHAR: You ate the dog food?

O`NEAL: We did.

BEHAR: Because she left you there without any food or a baby-sitter?

O`NEAL: We got locked in the garage is what happened, and she was, I guess, asleep.

BEHAR: You`re very kind to her, the way you describe it, you`re not--

O`NEAL: Well, look, you know, I`ve had addiction myself. And at this point, she`s passed and she did the very best that she could. And who knows what it was like being married to my dad. Not that I`m blaming him for what happened to my mom, but, you know, I don`t think she did it on purpose. She sure could have done a better job with the parenting part, but, you know -- I just have a love for her. She was very nice and she was funny and she was great. I don`t think she was meant to be a mother at all.

BEHAR: No. Do you think you were meant to be a mother?

O`NEAL: I know I was going to be a mother.

BEHAR: How do you know?

O`NEAL: Because I love it. Because I love them. Because I don`t stop talking about them, because we`re so close. I mean, how else can I tell you?

BEHAR: Do you think Ryan was meant to be a father?

O`NEAL: In some ways, yes and in some ways, no.

BEHAR: How was he meant to be a father in yes?

O`NEAL: Somehow to get me into that film and put me out there is the only way that "Paper Moon" -- the only thing that I can see is that he kind of was able to put me into the thing that he loved to do, which was to make movies. Besides that, the whole parenting part, I think he was good as a co-star, and -- or better as a co-star.

BEHAR: There`s some allegations of abuse in the book.

O`NEAL: Yes. In my new book or an old book?

BEHAR: I don`t know which book it is.

O`NEAL: (inaudible) the old book. Yes, there was a hectic life. The problem is, Joy, that we`re together going into this show, and he doesn`t - - he says that it didn`t happen. It`s sort of like he said/she said, so people can choose to believe what they want. I know what`s true and I don`t sit there and fight for it. If you look at my history or my brother`s life, I mean, there`s already a documented -- he shot at Griffin.

BEHAR: Didn`t he knock his teeth out?

O`NEAL: I believe they got into a fistfight. You know what I mean? Like if you kind of look -- so as much as he wants to deny that he has a temper problem, you know, he can.

BEHAR: The proof is in --

O`NEAL: It`s -- yes. And it`s in history, and it`s in some of the stuff he says in the show.

BEHAR: Your brother doesn`t seem very fond of him at all?

O`NEAL: Well, he`s really not and he has kind of a good reason to be.

BEHAR: More than you?

O`NEAL: Sort of. The reason that I think that I have more of a chance to -- and I really don`t want to make all my interviews about like what -- like about my dad and about what kind of guy he is, because I do think the whole point is that I`ve changed and that I`m able to kind of forgive anybody and everything for whatever happened at this point, but I had a career and I got to make my own money, and he didn`t.

BEHAR: Griffin.

O`NEAL: Griffin, going back to Griffin. So in that way, I think probably he didn`t have as good of a chance, perhaps.

BEHAR: Is it because he is not as talented as you are?

O`NEAL: I think he`s very talented.

BEHAR: So what happened to him?

O`NEAL: In true life, he got beaten down, I think.

BEHAR: By dad?

O`NEAL: I think so. Oh, God. Let me reset.

BEHAR: What makes you so anxious when you--?

O`NEAL: Because my dad is flying in tonight literally and we`re going to stay at the same hotel and we`re going to go tomorrow and do Regis. And it`s going to be fun and we`re going to be happy and it`s going to be exciting and we`re going to get along, so I need to kind of get past like - - because I get it. I would want to talk about it, too. I don`t think he was a very good father, and I think my brother has a good reason to hate him. At the same time, I want to put on tape what it really is like so people can see, and he doesn`t -- he`s the same.

BEHAR: Well, you seem to have gone on a different track from your brother.

O`NEAL: Yes. Thank God.

BEHAR: So in the next segment, you can tell me what you want to tell me. OK? We`ll be right back with more from Tatum O`Neal.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

O`NEAL: I don`t have a lot of crazy birthdays. This one says tell us about the funniest and craziest birthday you ever had. This is by far the craziest. Even --

(CROSSTALK)

RYAN O`NEAL: I don`t buy that.

O`NEAL: OK, so 15, dad wasn`t at the house.

RYAN O`NEAL: Wait a second.

O`NEAL: Let`s go, girls.

RYAN O`NEAL: 16, 16, you got two cars. You got two cars.

O`NEAL: Two cars.

RYAN O`NEAL: Two cars for her birthday.

O`NEAL: I could drive with one arm in each.

RYAN O`NEAL: It was called, going to buy her love, going to buy her love.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: That was actress Tatum O`Neal and her father Ryan in the new Own series "Ryan and Tatum." And I am back with Tatum now.

I watch you and I am talking to you and it`s very interesting, because I see from that piece of tape, that there`s a sort of levity around the relationship, and there`s all this pain and anger also.

O`NEAL: It`s the weirdest, craziest relationship.

BEHAR: It`s -- you have to go on Regis tomorrow and act like that. But you don`t have to act like that all the time. You--

(CROSSTALK)

O`NEAL: I am telling the story. I am not griping anymore because I`m grown and I`m safe. And, you know, I`m not at his mercy anymore at all. But, you know, you just try to -- I am trying to stay positive, because -- because that`s sort of where I`m at. I`m in a good place. And this story sort of speaks for itself. And the sort of the way that he -- he didn`t parent and sort of the way he explains that in the show.

And at the same time, you want to forgive him, because there`s something about him that is so loving and so appealing and so -- yet so drawn to him that you kind of are baffled, like, oh, what -- you know, so you wonder, like, is he -- is it a bipolar? Is it -- I don`t think it`s real anymore. Like I do think that there`s something chemically.

BEHAR: It would be easier probably on you as a child if he was more consistent, either not nice or nice all the time.

O`NEAL: But here`s the thing. I got away. I got out of the house after he left. I left very soon after and I got married and I had a new life, and, you know, I didn`t see him for two decades or so. And in that time, I grew up. And I didn`t have that experience and I didn`t have his opinion of me and I didn`t have to grow into what he thought of me anymore. So now going back as an adult and having sort of reduced me back to Addy (ph) or what he sort of can handle is tricky and also compelling for the show.

BEHAR: But the fact that he confuses you so much, is that healthy for you to even be in the same room with the guy at this point?

O`NEAL: That`s a good question. I think so. I think so. I think that he`s my dad. That`s the thing. He`s not a friend, he`s not, you know, he took custody of me away from my mother, and so that`s really all I know.

BEHAR: But -- I know. You have a lot of abandonment history. First, your mother, basically abandoned you from 0 to 7, it sounds like to me because she was addicted to drugs.

O`NEAL: Correct.

BEHAR: Then he comes in and rescues you from that, but then he abandons you again when you`re around 16 years old. You and your brother are left to fend for yourselves.

O`NEAL: Don`t you think everything happens? I`m starting to cry. Don`t you think everything -- I think everything happens for a reason. Thank you. I think everything happens for a reason. I really do.

BEHAR: You do? You really believe that?

O`NEAL: I think -- and I think that for whatever I`ve gone through, it`s gotten me to the place where I can sit here and tell you that I am a better person for whatever it is I`ve gone through. I`m perhaps a better actor, I am a better friend, I`m a better mother. And if the healing that I`ve done in my own life can somehow go back and help my dad, which sort of has something to do with the title of the book, then I`m willing to do it.

It isn`t a -- excuse me. It isn`t a to hell with you book or to hell with you show, it`s a trying to make peace with what looks like you shouldn`t or can`t or wouldn`t, because look at what he did. At the same time, there`s always a conversation that can happen. And I was looking for that conversation.

BEHAR: You had a hard time, when you were married to McEnroe, too, I understand, and also then why did they take your kids away from you? What was going on there?

O`NEAL: Well, we were fighting. That was --

BEHAR: How old were you then?

O`NEAL: It was after 9/11. And I had been going back and forth. It`s a long story, but I had been going back and forth with custody and I was battling heroin addiction. And I just couldn`t keep it together. And after 9/11, I left New York, and then he just took them. In a way, it was the best thing, because I needed to get better and I needed to find myself and I needed to be sober for them. And it`s obviously been a long journey because I don`t have as much sobriety as I`d like.

BEHAR: That must have been painful years.

O`NEAL: Obviously.

BEHAR: Those were very bad years.

O`NEAL: They`re terrible. And I wish I could take them back.

BEHAR: And then there was the other abandonment of you, I think I read, when he went off with Farrah and sort of you know, just -- then you were replaced again by another person. That`s tough.

O`NEAL: I think that the way that I look at that is to say that we were breaking up before Farrah. That he doesn`t talk about. The minute I hit puberty, things started to get very rocky with my dad. So it looked easy with Farrah, but we were really heading in a very bad direction already. So it wasn`t Farrah.

BEHAR: All right. And the marriage to McEnroe? What do you think about that?

O`NEAL: I have a great respect for McEnroe and I think that thank God he was there when I wasn`t.

BEHAR: He had anger issues, too, McEnroe, he acted on the courts like a crazy person.

O`NEAL: Yes, but he`s trying to change and he`s doing the very best he can. I wish him all the luck.

BEHAR: Of course we do. And he`s been here and he is a fabulous guest.

O`NEAL: I know. He`s hilarious.

BEHAR: But I remember him from the days when he would throw the tennis rackets and curse at the opponents and everything. Was he doing that at home, too?

O`NEAL: No.

BEHAR: No, he was not. All right. Let`s look at a picture of you -- a piece of your movie. I love that movie that you were in. Let`s see it.

O`NEAL: I wish you guys had like episode 3 or episode 5.

BEHAR: We don`t have it.

You were playing opposite your father Ryan in "Paper Moon." Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

O`NEAL: You ain`t my pa. I want my $200.

RYAN O`NEAL: What?

O`NEAL: I want my $200. I heard you through the door talking to that man. It`s my money you`ve got and I want it.

RYAN O`NEAL: You just hold on a second.

O`NEAL: I want my money. You took my $200!

RYAN O`NEAL: Will you quiet down, you hear?

O`NEAL: I want my $200.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: When you watch that, which -- you were just terrific, what an actress, and you won an Oscar for it.

O`NEAL: Thank you.

BEHAR: My God. The youngest person to ever win an Oscar, right?

O`NEAL: That`s my understanding.

BEHAR: Do you remember that period?

O`NEAL: Yes, I do.

BEHAR: You do remember it.

O`NEAL: I remember the scene, I remember the day, and that is me.

BEHAR: That is you.

O`NEAL: Even though I was 8, yes.

BEHAR: Adorable.

O`NEAL: Thank you.

BEHAR: And what was life like after you won the Oscar?

O`NEAL: It was different. And you referred to the life that I had led prior to moving in with my dad and obviously prior to the movie. I sort of not been to school and I hadn`t really formed the kind of put- together little young lady. I was very scrappy and very raw, and that was the -- that worked for the character very well.

BEHAR: It did.

O`NEAL: I did have to learn to read.

BEHAR: You didn`t know how to read before that.

O`NEAL: Uh-uh.

BEHAR: How come?

O`NEAL: I hadn`t really been to school.

BEHAR: No one was taking care of you.

O`NEAL: Right. So that was interesting. But I mean, I think it`s also a testament to the `70s, and to taking a chance on a talent where they wouldn`t do that today. They would have auditioned me and I would have failed and it would have been a disaster. But I think the idea that they said, Peter said, oh, she`s Ryan`s daughter, she`s got something, I think we should try it.

BEHAR: All right. Well, is there anything you want to tell me before I go?

O`NEAL: I`m just glad that I can -- I`m glad I wrote my book, I`m glad that I had this opportunity to do this show with my dad. I hope we find a healing. I hope we find peace. I do wish him all the best. I have a great love for him, even if things weren`t as perfect as I would have liked.

BEHAR: How are you going to deal with the Regis and Kelly show tomorrow?

O`NEAL: Oh, we have a lot of fun together.

BEHAR: You`re an actress, don`t forget?

O`NEAL: Exactly. And we laugh.

(CROSSTALK)

O`NEAL: Exactly. We laugh and we have fun because we like each other actually.

BEHAR: I`m curious, did you ever go through a period of therapy where you got in touch with your rage?

O`NEAL: Yes.

BEHAR: Oh, good for you.

O`NEAL: Oh, gosh, yes. I`ve been in a lot of therapy.

BEHAR: OK. Her book is called "Found: A Daughter`s Journey Home." It is a moving story not only about her painful past but more importantly, her road to redemption and recovery. It`s a great read and we`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: Comedian Ross Matthews has been on "The Tonight Show" and "Chelsea" lately, but he`s also been on a diet. As a new spokesperson for Jenny Craig, he`s lost 40 pounds in just 29 weeks. The skinny bitch is here right now. Welcome to my show, Ross Matthews!

ROSS MATTHEWS, COMEDIAN: Hello, how are you?

BEHAR: So all that weight, how do you feel?

MATTHEWS: I feel incredible. I do. I mean, you struggled with weight, right, a little bit? Now you look gorg.

BEHAR: No, I struggled with weight postmenopausally.

MATTHEWS: Oh, me too.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: I was not fat as a young person, but once I hit 40, forget about it.

MATTHEWS: See, that`s why -- I`m 31 and I kind of lost control of my weight. I got in a relationship, got really happy and was like, OK, a couple of pounds are fine and then it just slipped away.

BEHAR: See, husbands make you fat. I always say that.

MATTHEWS: Really?

BEHAR: Yes, they do, because you go out to dinner with them.

MATTHEWS: Yes. Especially gay ones, because they want cheese and wine. And hello. That`s what does it.

BEHAR: I heard that Gwyneth Paltrow got you into this.

MATTHEWS: Kind of. She`s a friend of mine for a long time. I met her when I first started "The Tonight Show." Almost 10 years I`ve been on that show now. And so my first Oscars, she was walking the red carpet and I just asked her, will you be my best friend? Because I loved her forever, she said yes. So we have been since then.

And I saw her at a taping of "Chelsea" lately back in like November, and she goes, honey, what`s going on here? Because there was a lot more of me. And it was the first real friend of mine that had really called me out on it. And I knew but no one called me out. And so I said, there`s something I`ve got to do about it. And I asked my friend Sarah Roux (ph), who is a spokesperson for Jenny Craig.

BEHAR: I like her, too. She`s an adorable girl.

MATTHEWS: She`s so cute, right? And she`s a real good person too.

BEHAR: Yeah.

MATTHEWS: She lost 50 pounds. And I said hook me up, hook a brother up. So she did. And now I`ve lost -- I set a goal of 40 pounds, and I just reached it.

BEHAR: Tell me about the workouts.

MATTHEWS: You know, not that much. You know those people who go to the gym and love it, they bug me. Not a lot of people bug me, but they bug me. I just don`t like it, I don`t get it. So I just knew I was never going to be that person. If I did it that way, I would never keep it up, so every morning I walk. I walk to get my coffee and then I walk -- I live near the river in L.A., which is like a cement brick, you know, like -- but I just do it every day. It`s like my time. I call my grandma, who I call Bunka (ph). I call my mom, I call my friends. And it`s just my time. And it`s the thing I do that keeps me--

BEHAR: So you talk on the cell phone while you`re walking?

MATTHEWS: Yes, but I do this thing because I saw the thing on TV about the brain cancer. I`m petrified. When I drive, I had been carrying my phone like in my crotchal (ph) region, you know what I mean, and now I`m convinced I have a tumor.

BEHAR: No, you might not be able to have children. Do you want children?

MATTHEWS: Well, is that going to happen? No, I do want children, I just don`t think -- we`re not going to have any accidents, if you know what I mean.

BEHAR: The only people I know who are having children are gay people.

MATTHEWS: I know. Can you imagine my baby? The pageants. Can you imagine?

BEHAR: It would be divine.

MATTHEWS: I`d have to have a girl because I would have no idea how to raise a boy.

BEHAR: You`re a boy.

MATTHEWS: I`m a boy, but --

BEHAR: Say it, keep saying it, I`m a boy.

MATTHEWS: I`m a boy, I`m a boy, I believe. I`m a real boy.

BEHAR: Thank you so much.

MATTHEWS: Thank you, thank you.

BEHAR: You`re so funny. We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

END