Return to Transcripts main page
Joy Behar Page
Casey Anthony Murder Trial; Interview With Paul and Mira Sorvino
Aired June 17, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE Joy BEHAR SHOW, HLN`s Nancy Grace joins Joy to forecast the defense`s next moves in the Casey Anthony trial.
Then one of the nation`s leading psychiatrists delves into the mind of Casey Anthony and tells Joy what motivates mothers who kill their kids.
Plus, Mira Sorvino talks about following in her father`s Hollywood footsteps.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: A busy week in the Casey Anthony murder trial as the prosecution rests and the defense begins its days. And who better to get a read on how they did and what`s ahead than HLN`s own Nancy Grace, of course. And she`s with me now.
Hi, Nancy.
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST, "NANCY GRACE": Hi, Joy, thank you for having me.
BEHAR: Sure.
Ok, the prosecution wrapped its case. How strong was it, and did they prove first-degree murder?
GRACE: The state`s case was extremely strong. I think that they did prove Murder One. Especially, you know, Joy, they started off with some strong behavioral evidence which detailed the Tot Mom`s behavior in the days, the weeks, even the hours after little Caylee goes missing.
In the end we capped it off with the state with the icing on the cake where we learned about a tattoo artist; a tattoo parlor, where Tot Mom goes and gets the tattoo the "Good Life" or the "Beautiful Life" on her shoulder.
But that`s not the real kicker, Joy. After that, she hung around the tattoo parlor and decided to throw a pizza party. Yes, she ordered pizza and stayed for pizza and talked about everything but her daughter.
Now the defense is going to argue, Joy that that tattoo was actually a tribute to Caylee`s life. Upon further questioning, we learned from the tattoo artist that typically when a person gets a tribute tattoo, a memorial so to speak, they talk about the deceased person. Why they`re getting the tattoo, what the person meant to them.
BEHAR: Right.
GRACE: Not one word about that from Tot Mom. That`s pretty much how the state ended the case.
Today ironically, Joy, the defense kicks off on -- to the date three years since Caylee goes missing, almost down to the very hour. And what they did was a real bombshell. They asked in open court, were brother, Lee and father George tested for Caylee`s paternity.
And what concerns a lot of court watchers was that by that alone it may give credence to Tot Mom`s assertion that she was molested by her father and her brother.
BEHAR: That`s true. Yes, I know about that. What does the prosecution need to do now to maintain any advantage that they may have?
GRACE: Well, Joy, it`s going to be tough for the prosecution to maintain an advantage right now. All along it`s been the state`s show. Now the tables are turned.
It`s the defense turn to go forward. Other than some very effective cross examinations, that`s all they can do is sit back and let the evidence roll in. But so far today with the defense that we thought would be a torpedo four people fell asleep and had to be removed from the courtroom, Joy. So I don`t know how much that defense is going to be to the state.
Also, Joy, one thing the state may be able to do to regain control of the courtroom is put up a rebuttal. One thing I learn is that they didn`t call all of their witnesses during the state`s case in chief. Are they saving some for rebuttal? We`ll see.
BEHAR: Ok. That`s interesting. But you know, you said something before that they have enough evidence for Murder One. But as far as I can tell, they don`t have any DNA evidence. There`s very little -- there`s no blood sample. So don`t they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt -- is there enough to prove that, Nancy? That`s just my question.
GRACE: Ok. Joy Behar, may I ask you a question? Blood for what? What blood? Was somebody shot? No. Stabbed? No. Was there a big cut? No.
BEHAR: They brought that up --
GRACE: Why do they need blood? Why do they need blood?
BEHAR: Well, as far as I can understand, they did bring up that idea that there was no blood. So why would they even bring it up? Why would they --
GRACE: You know what, Joy, that`s a mystery. That`s a mystery. They went through all of this over and over and over the defense asking every witness, well, was there blood here, was there blood there?
No wonder the state didn`t object. They don`t care. Go ahead and ask because that`s not the theory that either the state nor the defense is functioning under.
The defense says she was accidentally drowned. The state says she was killed by duct tape and chloroform. So what I consider to happen in court was that the defense wasted everybody`s time and four spectators fell asleep asking about blood that doesn`t exist.
So if that`s their tactic, I`m sure the state`s saying, hey, let in -- let it in. They`re just kicking back -- they`re putting their feet up. No need to object to that because it doesn`t amount to a hill of beans. I don`t know what Baez was doing.
He did do one thing smart although it was objectionable and possibly grounds for a reprimand. Out of the blue he asked about this paternity test on George and Lee. So that`s going to -- without Tot Mom taking the stand -- bolster her theory that she was molested. That the FBI went to all the trouble to do a paternity test on them.
And you asked about DNA. Yes, that is the problem because I would have expected there to be fingerprints on the duct tape. Come on, how can you even wrap a present with scotch tape and not get fingerprints on the tape, much less put duct tape on a child`s head and not leave fingerprint.
Here`s the answer, we`re going to hear it in the state`s closing argument. They`ll hold the duct tape up. You can literally see through it. It`s transparent. It`s soaked in feet of water from Tropical Storm Faye for weeks on end. The outside and the sticky side, it`s almost transparent now, lost are the fingerprints.
BEHAR: Ok. What can the defense do it if anything to poke holes in the prosecution`s case? Are they -- are they just crazy theories? And is that enough for them?
Well, I tell you, Joy, what they could have done. But, of course, that horse is out of the barn. What they could have done is put up a straight accident defense and let Tot Mom take the blame. For her to say, "I wasn`t watching my daughter, she drowned in the pool. It`s my fault. I was afraid my parents would nut up on me, disown me, kick me out. So I hid her body. Set it up to look like murder, and it`s killed me ever since that I did this thing. Judge me if you wish."
And then come up with some excuse to cover the chloroform and neck- breaking computer searches she ran three or four months before the deed was done. Come up with a theory. That may have hooked one of the jurors.
BEHAR: You know, I`m wondering, the prosecution has basically created an image, and the girl herself with all of her lying and all of this, you know, sort of detachment about the child during the 31 days that she was missing. They`ve sort of made a picture -- I have a picture of a girl who doesn`t care, who`s not likeable at all.
How much does that enter it into the verdict do you think from these jurors? She`s not very likeable.
GRACE: You know, Joy, I would like to say that justice is blind because we always see lady justice depicted wearing a blindfold as to the sex, the race, the personality, the gender of the defendant or the victim. But in this case, the jury is not a cold statue standing in the corner holding up the scales. They are living, breathing people --
BEHAR: Right.
GRACE: -- that even intuitively take in information about Tot Mom as she sits there. They`re drinking it all whether they`re analyzing it here or not; they may be analyzing it right here the way many of us do.
And I remember my judge that I practiced with for so many years said that this is about not only the head, reason, but the heart. How you make a jury verdict. You use all of your senses to come to a verdict and I`ve got to agree with you, she hasn`t made a very good impression.
BEHAR: Not at all. Do you think she`ll take the stand?
GRACE: You know, a lot of people are saying that she has to take the stand. Hello. Check the constitution; that pesky little Fifth Amendment, right to remain silent. No, she does not have to take the stand.
But her lawyer, Jose Baez, may have put up a theory in the opening statement -- nobody can support it. Nobody can prove it but her. So their choices are put her up and let her get sliced up like a fruitcake on cross exam or don`t put her up and don`t deliver what you promised in opening statement.
BEHAR: Now do you see a scenario where she could be found guilty of a lesser charge rather than first-degree murder? Something like aggravated child abuse?
GRACE: I do.
BEHAR: You do see something?
GRACE: I do. That`s always possible in any murder trial, if the defense can get a charge on a lesser -- sometimes the facts simply don`t support a lesser included offense. But in this case, the state has charged her with several lesser includeds. There are other lesser includeds they could come back on with a guilty like voluntary manslaughter.
BEHAR: Uh-huh. That`s right. Ok, thank you, Nancy, very much. Be sure to catch Nancy Grace --
GRACE: Thank you, Joy Behar.
BEHAR: Always good to see you, Nancy. She`s on every night --
GRACE: Joy?
BEHAR: Yes.
GRACE: Joy? You need to come down to Orlando with me. You need to go in the courtroom with me, Joy Behar.
BEHAR: Maybe. My hair frizzes in Atlanta.
GRACE: Come on, Joy.
BEHAR: Ok. You can catch Nancy --
GRACE: Good-bye, friend.
BEHAR: Ok. Bye-bye. Every night at 8:00 on HLN for the latest on the trial.
More on Casey Anthony in just a minute.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Academy award-winner Mira Sorvino drops by along with her father, actor Paul Sorvino.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: During the course of the Casey Anthony trial, we`ve listened to recordings of Casey calmly talking to a 911 operator about her missing child. We`ve heard testimony that she made up an imaginary nanny. She`s lied to investigators and she lashed out at her mother among other things.
So are these all clues to the real Casey Anthony? And is this behavior typical of what we`ve seen in other cases where mothers are accused of killing their children?
Here now to discuss this is one of the country`s leading forensic psychiatrists, Dr. Michael Welner, chairman of the forensic panel and associate professor of psychiatry at NYU School of Medicine.
Ok, what is it about this -- we`ve seen a lot of cases like this -- there`s not a lot, but enough. Andrea Yates, Susan Smith --
(CROSSTALK)
DR. MICHAEL WELNER, CHAIRMAN, THE FORENSIC PANEL: Too many.
BEHAR: Too many of these women who killed a child.
What is it about Casey Anthony that stands out to you? What`s different?
WELNER: Well, what`s the first thing you told me when I came out today? And that is, well, you -- you have to be crazy. It`s so outlandish for us to just contemplate the idea of a mother killing her children that it`s -- it`s natural for us to say, well, she must be crazy. She must be psychotic.
And here you have someone who is so unaffected, who`s so unremarkable.
BEHAR: Yes.
WELNER: So unremarkable that no matter how much you convince yourself that she must be sick, you take all this in and say there`s no way that she can be. And that`s what`s so stunning.
We look at someone like Andrea Yates -- we had to think she was sick. We had to think Susan Smith was so sick. They may have been affected by psychiatric illness, but it`s so foreign to us that we make these people sicker. You cannot make someone who`s so banal, who`s so carefree --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Right.
WELNER: Who`s doing hot body contests and shopping and --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Getting tattoos.
WELNER: And getting together with her boyfriend and all this who is not only unremarkable but who is writing in her diary, "I`m as happy as I`ve ever been". You can`t make her sick. And that`s what so remarkable, and I think that that`s what`s touching the consciousness of a lot of people who`s -- who are following this case.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well, that`s so interesting. I mean, so Andrea Yates, you say, was really a mental case. And you could see it.
WELNER: Well, Andrea Yates, and I examined her --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: She -- she drowned her five children, right?
WELNER: She drowned her five children and she had depression and she had a severe depression. But she was also very angry and resentful. And Andrea Yates was planning to kill her children for two months as soon as she got the opportunity. And as soon as she was given access to kill her children in a way that she wouldn`t be interrupted, she did.
Ultimately, in my professional opinion, she killed her children because she was overwhelmed. And a number of sick or drug-addicted mothers do that.
In the Anthony case, we`re dealing with different issues. And the more that we`ve learned about how detached she was from her children, the more we come to question whether she saw Caylee as a hindrance, as an inconvenience for her.
BEHAR: Well, see that reminds me of the Susan Smith case. Because she was in love with a guy who she perceives would be not interested in her with the baggage of children. So she decided to drown her boys.
WELNER: Yes.
BEHAR: So in a way, is that -- how was that different from this, from this Andrea Yates who also saw them as a hindrance?
WELNER: Well, my experience with Andrea Yates was not that she saw her children as a hindrance but that she -- felt so invested in her identity as a mother --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
WELNER: -- that she couldn`t bear the idea of failing. So she made a selfish choice to kill her children. Her children had no say in the matter.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Right.
WELNER: Now when Noah`s pouring cereal for himself he doesn`t think that he`s going to be drowning in the bath tub five minutes later.
And so it is with Caylee, there is no conflict here. But if Casey is responsible, she made a selfish choice to say, "My needs, my satisfaction" --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: My needs.
WELNER: -- "are intruded upon by your presence. How dare you 3-year- old be in my life, preventing me from living the life that I want to live." And this is one of the reasons why --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: But why not -- when -- when someone has that kind of thought process, why not just give the child up to the grandparents and say, look - - I can`t deal with this child, you raise the child? From what I`ve seen, the grandparents would have done that.
WELNER: In hindsight, we think that these -- you know, these options are always available. I asked Andrea Yates about the same thing. In her instance, she didn`t want the perception of failing as a mother. How does Casey --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It`s crazy.
WELNER: How does -- well --
BEHAR: She`s so crazy.
WELNER: Is it? Is it crazy, or is it someone who is so prideful about their identity as a mother?
I think with Casey, she hasn`t given any answers so we can`t make that presumption. But what I will tell you is that when you see how carefree, how upbeat she was, one common thread, Joy, to the mother who intentionally kills her child --
BEHAR: Yes.
WELNER: -- sick or not sick is --
BEHAR: Yes.
WELNER: -- alienated.
Over time, they are increasingly estranged. Yes, they`re kissy and huggy in the Christmas photos. But by the time it gets to the homicide, that relationship has become estranged and detached. And that`s the by product that you see in just how unaffected she is not only in how she behaved but how she was communicating with others about the missing child.
BEHAR: All right and let`s break down --
WELNER: Thirty days, not reporting a missing child.
BEHAR: I know. Let`s listen to a 911 call made after Caylee went missing.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month. Her mother finally admitted that she`s been missing. Get someone here now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ok -- what is the address that you`re calling from?
CINDY ANTHONY: 4137 Hope Spring Drive. We`re talking about a 3-year- old little girl.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you tell me a little about what`s going on?
CASEY ANTHONY: My daughter`s been missing for the last 31 days.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you know who has her?
CASEY ANTHONY: I know who has her. I`ve tried to contact her.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ok. As you can see, the mother -- the grandmother is hysterical at the thought that the child is missing. And the mother is -- this disassociated human being, calm and collected. So tell me about it.
WELNER: Well Joy, you`ve got to be careful because some people are more close to the vest and more reserved and some people are more emotive.
BEHAR: Right.
WELNER: The way you interpret it from a perspective of forensic psychiatry is does Casey Anthony get excited? What does she get emotional over? And if she does, if she has things that she`s sensitive to, well, clearly the missing child didn`t touch those sensitivities. And that`s when it becomes notable, remarkable.
If she`s always like that, if she`s always unaffected --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Then that`s her personality.
WELNER: Well, then that`s her personality, and you have to be careful about side by side -- we`re all different in how we relate under stress.
But if there are circumstances in which she relates just like we heard her mother, well, then it is remarkable.
BEHAR: Ok. Ok. We`ll continue this in just a minute -- very interesting.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Ok. I`m back with forensic psychiatrist Dr. Michael Welner.
You know, this past April there was a woman who drove herself and her kids into the Hudson River. She killed herself and her three children. But at the last minute she seemed to regret it. She told the boy who swam out, "Go get help." But it was too late, the other children and she drowned.
What`s the difference between a mother that kills herself with the kids and the one who just kills the kids?
WELNER: Well, there are two things in common and then we`ll talk about the difference.
The common point is that it`s a selfish act. It`s not a crazy act, it`s a selfish act.
BEHAR: Right.
WELNER: How is it selfish? It`s the mother saying "I know what`s best. I know that it`s best to take your life. That`s my choice. That`s a decision I`ll make even if you struggle."
Where they differ is that the mother who kills her children -- either because she`s overwhelmed or because she`s mentally ill or because she doesn`t want the inconvenience is doing it for purely selfish reasons --
BEHAR: Yes.
WELNER: -- and there are some mothers who are depressed, who are suicidal, who kill themselves and wonder how their children will go on without them or they do not want the burden of the pain of their children being motherless.
And then there are the mothers who kill themselves because they`re angry at a significant other.
BEHAR: Right. That`s what I think this one did.
WELNER: And they feel the significant other still doesn`t care. So they say oh, you won`t feel pain when I kill myself?
BEHAR: I`ll show you.
WELNER: I will spitefully take something that I know is precious to you. So I think --
BEHAR: It`s like the Greek tragedy "Medea". That`s exactly what the story is about. To get back at Jason who dumped her. Same idea as this woman.
WELNER: Well, one of the reasons we`re talking about these kinds of cases is that it`s all too easy for us to dismiss these people as disturbed.
I think we need to be focusing more on the selfishness of child- killing because no one speaks for the children. And what child would say, "You know what, Mom, good idea, drown me. That`s a good idea. I agree with that rationale." The children have no voice in this. They have no power. And they can`t resist.
BEHAR: So what should we do? What should we do with these people? I mean it`s getting to be a lot of stories like this.
WELNER: Well, I think one of the disturbing experiences of the Yates case, and I actually had this come up in a later case in Texas where a father beheaded his children --
BEHAR: Oh, my God.
WELNER: He beheaded three children. And his rationale approaching trial was, "If Andrea Yates can be found insane, so can I."
What I find as a forensic psychiatrist is that mothers are considering homicide as an available option. That is a moral emptiness in who we are. If no one is protecting the children and if it`s an option for the overwhelmed and depressed parent to kill a child, we failed.
Now, we live in a society where you can`t kill a police officer. Why can`t we extend the same protections to defenseless children?
BEHAR: You`ll get the chair. You`ll get the chair for that.
Thank you very much, sir.
We`ll be right back after a short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: As the defense in the Casey Anthony trial begins presenting its case, questions continue to come up about the bizarre dynamics between Casey and her lawyer, Jose Baez. Here to talk about it, are Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and a marriage and family therapist, and Debra Opri, defense attorney.
Ladies, this is so odd. Casey seems to be acting -- first of all, let`s start with this one. Casey seems to be acting as Baez`s paralegal in court. She`s taking notes, she`s filing papers. I mean, who does that? Who does that?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: I would look at this -- I would look at this through the lens of criminality. Criminals always feel that they`re smarter than everybody else, OK. They`re the holder of truth with the investigators, that`s why she lied. She`s the holder of the files. Also, she`s very infantile. So you think of this as like little girl putting on mommy`s make-up and pretending she`s an adult. So I think it`s her superiority.
BEHAR: Wow.
DEBRA OPRI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I want to look it through the defense eyelashes here.
BEHAR: Go ahead.
OPRI: I think that he should have rigorously taught her from the get- go -- they did it with Michael Jackson -- you sit there, you hold your hands folded, and you look down or look straight forward or take notes, but I don`t need an assistant. So this is client control issues that I would be very concerned about.
BEHAR: Well, there`s more to this story because Casey and Baez have often been seen tete-a-tete in court. And some say they are acting flirtatiously with each other. Bethany, what does that indicate to you? What about the body language?
MARSHALL: Well, perhaps he`s in love with the part of her that`s making him famous. And perhaps she`s doing it so she doesn`t have to --
BEHAR: That`s good.
MARSHALL: Sociopaths only relate to others on the basis of power rather than affection. They don`t depend on others or use affectionate bonds to get their needs met. Instead, they use power and control. And as we know, sexuality is a very powerful thing. She thinks she`s in charge because of the lying, because of the sexuality, the flirting, the being the paralegal. In her own mind, she`s like the ringleader in the circus of filth. That`s what she is.
OPRI: If we step away from her and look from his viewpoint, he is an attorney who for whatever reason is feeling very protective of her. I think he should rightfully assume an advocate`s role and don`t diminish standing as her advocate, as her defense attorney on any level. And hugging her and touching her -- there are rules in court. You have a mode of decorum. And he`s got to really keep himself in check, because I know he`s nervous. He`s in the public eye. He`s handling one of the larger defense cases now. He`s got to really keep himself in check and keep that decorum all the way through, or his experience and his judgment are going to be seriously questioned.
MARSHALL: Yes, but you know what, Deb, though, she can turn on a dime. That`s why she`s in court, right? So don`t you think it`s really --
OPRI: Client control issues.
MARSHALL: -- delicate balance to handle her?
(CROSSTALK)
MARSHALL: In his mind he may feel that if he hugs her, if he flirts back, if he appeals to her narcissism, then she`ll be more under control. In a way--
(CROSSTALK)
OPRI: You`re using words of sociopath, criminality, narcissist -- these are all words that the media and the professionals have labeled her. But you know, this is a girl who basically is in his jurisdiction now. She`s in a courtroom and there are rules. There are ways to conduct yourself. And he should have set the parameters, and I don`t think he did.
BEHAR: OK, wait. Ladies, listen to this -- there have been rumors that Casey and Baez had a sexual relationship when she was previously out on bond, OK? Do you think that`s possible?
OPRI: Rumors.
BEHAR: Debra?
OPRI: Rumors.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well, listen, I`ll read you what it says -- let me read you a couple of things. Prison staff reprimanded Baez, repeatedly for hugging Casey during jailhouse visits. That could be just fatherly, I guess. This one really is too much -- they reportedly shared a piece of licorice through a hole in the glass partition, like Lady and the Tramp. What`s up with that? Who does that with a client?
OPRI: There`s no admission that there`s an intimate relationship. But again, his conducts is questionable. He hasn`t drawn a line in the sand. And if he`s feeling very comfortable with her, very protective over here, you know, the realty is he`s got to keep himself in check. As far as her conduct goes --
MARSHALL: You know what --
OPRI: Her conduct is according to how he controls her. And this is the way it`s got to be.
BEHAR: All right. Bethany?
MARSHALL: Deb, you know, another way to look at this is co- narcissism. Because we know with Casey Anthony that narcissism borderline and anti-social cluster together is a group of traits. We know with him he`s very narcissistically gratified at taking on this case. So what happens when two narcissists get together? We saw this with Anna Nicole Smith and Howard Stern. They fluff each other up, self-aggrandize --
(CROSSTALK)
OPRI: What happens when a lawyer wants to get a job-- Bethany, listen, what happens when an attorney gets a gig, he gets a high-profile exposure for potential future business, and he takes on a case. We don`t know how he`s being paid, how much, if he`s being paid. And he takes on a case. I don`t see it, because I choose not to see it as two narcissists. I see it as a somewhat inexperienced attorney in terms of controlling clients, and I see it as a client who has serious issues with --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: OK, well, you`re the lawyer. What -- you`re the lawyer, Debra. What if he was sleeping with her? What does that say about him as her lawyer?
OPRI: It`s in -- if he is sleeping with her during his period of representation, it is actionable by the state bar. There`s been no evidence of it. I`m not even going to take a step and accuse him of it.
BEHAR: We`re not accusing.
OPRI: If he had a relationship -- and I didn`t suggest you did, Joy. But if he had a relationship with her prior to this representation, the bottom line is he wasn`t representing her during it, but he`s never admitted it. So we have a lot of conjecture. But right now I as an attorney am looking at what`s going on inside the courtroom, and I think she should look forward and be quiet.
BEHAR: OK. Now, from the beginning, Casey`s family seemed suspicious of Baez`s intentions in the case. Listen to what her brother, Lee, had to say during a jailhouse interview played in court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY, BROTHER: He`s told us that, you know, his number-one focus is -- is you.
CASEY ANTHONY: Uh-huh.
LEE ANTHONY: That his secondary focus is Caylee.
CASEY ANTHONY: Uh-huh.
LEE ANTHONY: The truth is, as it is, it`s a business.
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.
LEE ANTHONY: The truth is that the most important thing for him, the first focus is himself, then you, then Caylee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: So you think, Debra, that Baez is using Casey to make a name for himself and that`s what that conversation sounds like he`s implying?
OPRI: Joy, just because Lee says it`s so, it ain`t make it so, you know. The bottom line is whatever Lee is telling his sister, that`s his opinion. But an attorney is always going to tell the client because that`s his job, you are my first priority. And the priority is proving his client is not guilty. As far as him saying my concern is for your daughter, you know, that sounds good, but he is an advocate. As far as the brother saying he`s all out for himself, well, we don`t know if Baez took this case on a zero payment or minimal --
BEHAR: Pro bono I heard.
OPRI: We do know he`s -- yes, well, he`s working --
(CROSSTALK)
MARSHALL: Deb, can I say --
OPRI: He`s working -- let me finish. He`s working his tush off to get her off. And I admire, I admire the work he`s putting in. I just don`t know if--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Bethany, let me ask you something. If Casey thought that she was Baez`s number-one priority, doesn`t it make sense how she might develop feelings for him? After all, one of the things we`ve been talking about is her jealousy that her mother preferred the child to her. Now she has an advocate who likes her better than everybody. So that might cause her to have an attraction to the guy, right?
MARSHALL: I think that is an excellent point. And first of all, Deb Opri, he`s not an experienced, hot-shot attorney like you, but before I throw him under the bus, let me say that I do think Lee was right.
OPRI: I`m not a hot-shot, I swear I`m not, I`m not.
MARSHALL: Yes, you are. Yes, you are. OK. I think Lee was right. And what better reason for Casey to choose this attorney than to spite her family? Isn`t that the motivation behind the alleged homicide, to spite Cindy so that Cindy couldn`t have control of the granddaughter?
BEHAR: Yes.
MARSHALL: So I think that --
OPRI: She got somebody who was going to work hard for her. That`s it.
(CROSSTALK)
MARSHALL: She got someone who`s going to throw her family under the bus. And that was very gratifying to her because that is what she enjoys doing.
BEHAR: By the way, this guy, Baez, interestingly enough, has a very checkered past himself. I mean, I don`t know how that enters into the conversation.
OPRI: I`m going to talk about that.
BEHAR: Well, we don`t have time.
MARSHALL: I think it does, Joy, because -- Joy, that`s why I talked about co-narcissism, because he didn`t pay child support payments.
BEHAR: That`s right.
MARSHALL: And so you have the rest of the news--
(CROSSTALK)
OPRI: He became an attorney. They licensed him.
MARSHALL: Narcissism and --
(CROSSTALK)
OPRI: He is a licensed attorney now.
BEHAR: OK, ladies, thank you so much for a lively conversation. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Father`s Day is around the corner, and it brings back such memories for me. My father taking me to the race track and saying, here, honey, put $5 on Seabiscuit to win. What a wonderful memory.
Paul Sorvino became a household name in "Goodfellas," and his daughter, Mira Sorvino, won for Oscar for her role in "The Mighty Aphrodite." Joining me now to talk about their lovely relationship are Paul and Mira Sorvino.
PAUL SORVINO, ACTOR: Thank you. So good to see you.
BEHAR: I forget that you won the Oscar for that. That`s right. That must have some day for you, huh?
MIRA SORVINO, ACTRESS: It was a great day. I was going in there expecting to be, you know, one of the contestants, not the winner. I was the youngest, and I thought, you know, someone else will get it and I`ll be happy for them. And I was practicing feeling happy for the winner when they called my name.
BEHAR: Yes.
M. SORVINO: And it was like a dream. I didn`t know how I really got up the steps to the stage. I felt like I floated.
BEHAR: Yes. And you didn`t even want her to be an actress, I bet, when she was a kid, right?
P. SORVINO: No, no.
BEHAR: See what happens when you say no?
P. SORVINO: I haven`t received a dime yet.
BEHAR: Did you not want her to go into acting?
P. SORVINO: No, I wanted her -- at the risk of embarrassing her, she was always the smartest kid in her school.
BEHAR: Uh-huh.
P. SORVINO: And she went to Harvard, and I wanted her to finish Harvard. And she was tempted not to finish Harvard by people who wanted to employ her. People I was working for, and the series I was doing, and I said, this can`t happen. She`s in the top 1 percentile in the world who want to be there. So she graduated magna cum laude--
BEHAR: Smart girl.
P. SORVINO: She comes up to me that day with a -- with the demand, dad, I want to be --
M. SORVINO: It wasn`t that day. It wasn`t -- no, I came to you it was -- during the next year, I was doing like five things in New York. One of them was auditioning.
P. SORVINO: I remember you saying it at your graduation.
M. SORVINO: No, no, you`re -- because immediately from graduation, I went off to do public service work for half a year and then I went to England to -- no, to Russia to do the documentary. And I was taking a course at the --
BEHAR: Don`t fight about the day.
(LAUGHTER)
M. SORVINO: No. But it was very weird because I tried to find other things to do. And then I went to this photography course called the creative process. And every day you kept a little journal. And one day I was like, my art is acting. And that`s my way of expressing whatever I have to say inside me. Maybe it`s something else later, but that`s it.
BEHAR: Well, you got that from your father, right? Is your mother an actress, too?
M. SORVINO: Yes.
BEHAR: So you couldn`t really get away from it.
M. SORVINO: No, and I went to him and I said, dad, I`ve got to do it, it`s a calling. He said, then I give you my blessing.
BEHAR: Well, did you always want to be an actor, Paul, when you were a kid?
P. SORVINO: From the time I was 4.
BEHAR: Oh, yeah?
P. SORVINO: Yeah, I knew I was going to be. I remember saying to my mother, mommy, when I grow up, I`m going to be an actor. I asked her later on, I said, did I really say that? She said, you certainly did. You were 4 years old. I said, was I looking into the back yard? Yes, you were. Through the window, said, mommy, when I grow up, I`m going to be an actor.
M. SORVINO: Tell her about your first role.
P. SORVINO: Oh, I was already a star at 5. I was in a nutrition play. And you know what an oak tag is?
BEHAR: Yes, sure.
P. SORVINO: They stapled oak tag to me and they made a big brown oat. And at rehearsal, I gave my -- did my lines, and the next day, they put chalk marks where I was supposed to stand. Which irritated me, I was insulted. They don`t think I know where to stand.
BEHAR: Well, that prepared you for "Goodfellas" where they put chalk lines on the ground.
P. SORVINO: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
P. SORVINO: So -- but then I issued my now-famous lines, "I`m Paul, Paul Oatmeal. True of heart and true of soul. Put me in your breakfast bowl." It was a nutrition thing --
BEHAR: That is good. That is good.
P. SORVINO: It was a nutrition play. And those were my first lines.
BEHAR: They used to do that -- I don`t think they do those anymore.
P. SORVINO: Not anymore. No.
BEHAR: No. So but you had a great run on "Law & Order." And you were there at the height of its popularity, because it`s really in its sort of -- not that--
P. SORVINO: It`s over. No, it is over.
BEHAR: Yes.
P. SORVINO: It was pulled.
BEHAR: But you left right in the middle, the height of its popularity.
P. SORVINO: Well, I was the second one on it. George Dzundza was first. He didn`t like it, and he left.
BEHAR: Oh, George Dzundza?
P. SORVINO: He was first. Then I came on it and it was 63rd in the ratings. And the second week I was on it, it was 23. I have a following. And they watched it, and for the next six months they were in the top 20, top 10. And so -- but I didn`t enjoy being on it either.
BEHAR: Why not?
P. SORVINO: Because it was too formulaic. I mean, how many ways can you do -- what did you see after you came out of the coffee shop?
BEHAR: And yet for some reason, you can watch -- I can watch reruns - -
P. SORVINO: You can watch it. But as an actor, I thought I was built for larger challenges.
BEHAR: Yes. So you never looked back and regretted it?
P. SORVINO: Oh, no, no, no, no. Because I`ve done 35, 40 movies since then. I`ve done -- I`ve sung in the opera. I`ve done so many different things that I wanted to do.
BEHAR: Did you know your father and I were in a movie together?
M. SORVINO: Yes, I heard.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: With Angelina Jolie, it was called "Love Is All There Is." We shot it in City Island (ph).
P. SORVINO: Yes.
BEHAR: He played Angelina`s daddy, right?
P. SORVINO: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes. And Laney Kazan (ph) was the mother of -- it was like "Romeo and Juliet." But Angelina became such a big star after that.
P. SORVINO: Huge. Yes.
BEHAR: It`s amazing what happened to her.
P. SORVINO: Yes.
BEHAR: Anyway, but you were in a movie called "Romy and Michelle`s High School Reunion," which was like sort of a chick flick, right?
M. SORVINO: Yes. It`s a female "Dumb and Dumber."
BEHAR: Yes.
M. SORVINO: It`s one of the only female buddy comedies ever, if you discount television with "I Love Lucy" and "Laverne and Shirley."
BEHAR: And "Thelma and Louise."
M. SORVINO: It`s not a buddy comedy. It`s a buddy movie, but not -- it`s a road movie, but it`s tragic and a little comedy, yes.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: So you both had remarkable careers. And, Paul, I know that you really are a closet opera singer.
P. SORVINO: Indeed. But I`ve done it on the operatic stage --
BEHAR: You`re not that much in the closet.
P. SORVINO: No, not really. Not so far. Not lately. No. Actually, I sung in the opera, I sang with the Seattle Opera, I sang for the New York City Opera. Did (inaudible) at the Met. I`ve done a lot of concerts and recordings.
BEHAR: Do you prefer that to acting?
P. SORVINO: Well, I`m not so sure about that. I do a lot of different things. I`m also a sculptor, I do -- so there`s a lot of things I do. I`m a writer, I`m a director --
BEHAR: You`re a Renaissance man.
M. SORVINO: Will you sing for her?
BEHAR: As we go out to the commercial break, we`re going to come back to talk about your charity.
P. SORVINO: Sure. Sure.
BEHAR: But can you sing us out?
P. SORVINO: Now?
BEHAR: Yes.
(MUSIC)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Paul and Mira Sorvino. Now, Paul, you discovered that you have type two diabetes in 2006. Weren`t you surprised to have that?
P. SORVINO: Yes. Of course.
BEHAR: Tell me about that.
P. SORVINO: Well, I went to the doctor for a different thing, they tested my blood and I had it. Well, my brother has it, my aunt had it, so I guess, OK, finally I got it, too. And I sort of hip-hopped around it. I took medication, oral medication, but I really wasn`t paying enough attention.
M. SORVINO: He didn`t even tell us he had it for a little while.
BEHAR: Why didn`t you tell them?
P. SORVINO: Well, because you know, I`m from the John Wayne generation. You fork your own (inaudible), you take care of your own business, you know. You don`t burden your family.
BEHAR: And you cure your own diabetes.
P. SORVINO: Absolutely. Nothing to it.
BEHAR: Did you have to cut out all the pasta fagioli and everything else?
P. SORVINO: Not since I found low carbohydrate pasta.
BEHAR: Oh, really? Tell me about this. You both involved with this?
P. SORVINO: This is the way I can remain an Italian. If you have diabetes and you want to remain an Italian, you must get the low carbohydrate pasta.
BEHAR: Where do you get it?
P. SORVINO: In the supermarket. You`ll see it. I`m not going to say the name of it. I`m going to come out with my own soon.
BEHAR: Oh, really? Sure, why not.
P. SORVINO: Yes. I have a food line anyway.
BEHAR: But you have a diabetes recipe that the two of you talk about.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Tell me about that.
M. SORVINO: OK. Well, this is all an outcropping of this great awareness campaign that we`ve been doing. This is our second year partnering with Sanofi-Aventis U.S. doing the diabetes co-stars awareness campaign. It`s basically for people like us, somebody like dad who initially was a little tentative with his own approach to how he was handling his own diabetes, and somebody like me who when they saw their father eating a plate of pasta fagioli, and it was not the low carb pasta, and he went into a --
BEHAR: Shock.
M. SORVINO: High-blood sugar episode, went like that and got all purple and then disappeared in his room for 20 minutes, I freaked out, and I was like, what is going on? I need to learn, how do I help him? So this whole thing is, if you go to our web site, diabetescostars.com.
BEHAR: We`ll put it up there.
M. SORVINO: Yes. You learn what diabetes is, how to help the person you love who has diabetes, how to work on their diet, their exercise plan and how to follow their doctor`s treatment plan. And dad really had to get serious about taking the bull by the horns.
(CROSSTALK)
P. SORVINO: What I did was, I went to my doctor, my doctor said, listen, I wanted you to use Lantus, this product, Lantus SoloStar. It`s a pen, it`s an insulin pen, and you use it once a day. You have to be careful that you don`t get low blood sugar from any insulin project. But you work that out -- you`re working with your doctor. And then you live a normal life. But as I said--
M. SORVINO: But you`ve made big changes to your diet.
P. SORVINO: Oh, yes, I have my diet, sure.
M. SORVINO: No more bread, no more desserts.
BEHAR: No more desserts, it`s a drag, but you have to do it.
P. SORVINO: Well, but I still eat very good Italian food, though.
BEHAR: Of course. There`s plenty to eat.
M. SORVINO: And we`ve been inventing recipes that actually taste fantastic and are friendly to diabetes. So now there`s this recipe contest called the diabetes co-stars cookoff, and anyone in the country can submit their recipe online, at diabetescostars.com, one entry per person.
BEHAR: OK, I`m going to tell them. To get more information on diabetes co-stars, you can win a chance to cook with Mira and Paul Sorvino. That`s interesting. Log on to diabetescostars.com. Right?
M. SORVINO: Right.
BEHAR: Thank you, guys, very much.
P. SORVINO: Thanks. So great to see you again.
BEHAR: Thanks very much for showing up and for singing on my show. I loved it.
P. SORVINO: Thank you.
BEHAR: Thank you all for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
