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Joy Behar Page
Casey Anthony Murder Trial; Interview with Sarah Ferguson
Aired June 24, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, after a busy week for the defense in the Casey Anthony trial, has Jose Baez and his experts poked enough holes in the prosecution`s case to sway the jury? ABC`s Chris Cuomo gives Joy his take.
And what comes next? If Casey Anthony goes to prison, what will her life be like? A behind-the-scenes look at the tough life of female inmates from a woman who`s been there; she`ll tell Joy whether Casey`s celebrity status will help or hurt her if she`s locked up.
Plus, the Duchess of York Sarah Ferguson is here. Fergie dishes to Joy about getting snubbed from the royal wedding and comes clean about more about allegations she tried to sell access to the royal family.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: Between Cindy Anthony`s shocking chloroform testimony and the judge`s scolding of Jose Baez, this was a drama-filled week in the case of Casey Anthony. Here now to talk about all of that and the likelihood of Casey going free is Chris Cuomo, chief law and justice correspondent for ABC News. Hello, Chris?
CHRIS CUOMO, CHIEF LAW AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT, ABC NEWS: How are you? It`s been good to see you.
BEHAR: Yes. Ok. Now, a lot of drama this week.
CUOMO: There really is.
BEHAR: So how do you think the defense`s case is going so far?
CUOMO: I think they`ve done a solid job of spreading doubt. Forget about all the theatrics of the judge. Lawyers fight with each other all the time.
BEHAR: Yes.
CUOMO: This is a very simple strategy. The prosecution gets up. They say we believe these nine ingredients make a guilty stew. They try to pull away some of the ingredients. They`ve done a fairly solid job.
BEHAR: Who do you think was the best witness that they had, was it Cindy who said that she was searching for chloroform? That was fascinating.
CUOMO: I think she`s going to wind up leading the pack for a couple of reasons. Let`s remember though the defense has also set a very high bar for them. The difference between them and the prosecution is Baez can run away from his standard.
He can say in closing arguments, remember what I said about the accident? Forget about it. All we need to do here is show that their case was no good. And you know it isn`t. You know it`s not going to be able to --
BEHAR: That`s right.
CUOMO: Cindy Anthony, though, wound up being a very intriguing thing for us trial watchers. Why? Well, first of all she changed her statement a little bit. She said you didn`t ask me the right question --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: She said during the deposition you asked me how to search for chloroform -- whatever it was. It was a specific question so I gave you a specific answer. What pulls on us is forget about her veracity. Can you imagine being in her position?
BEHAR: I cannot.
CUOMO: You`re going to testify against your own daughter?
BEHAR: It`s hard.
CUOMO: I can`t believe she even took the stand.
BEHAR: I know.
But let`s watch Cindy on the stand. It was very interesting yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: Do you recall in March of 2008, you doing any types of searches for any items that might include chloroform?
CINDY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.
BAEZ: And could you explain to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury why you did that.
C. ANTHONY: I started looking up chloroform -- I mean, chlorophyll, and that prompted me to look up chloroform.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ok. Now, the records are showing that she was at work. Her attorney said something else, you know, that she was going back and forth or something. But I mean she was at work according to the records. So do you buy that story that she was home looking up chloroform? Chlorophyll? Chloroform -- rather. I`m getting mixed up.
CUOMO: The records say what they say. Oh, I`ve got news for you, by the way. So I go to Google and type in chlor -- like I`m tying up -- it could be chlorophyll, chloroform. First word that popped up, chloroform.
BEHAR: Chloroform comes up.
CUOMO: It did. And she said that. She said that so that was true. She said, I remember I was trying to type chlorophyll and chloroform popped up. That`s true.
BEHAR: What about the 84 times, though?
CUOMO: That`s where she doesn`t pass the Behar Test.
BEHAR: She doesn`t pass the Behar Test.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: No, she doesn`t. I`m very strict on that one.
CUOMO: I`ve failed that test. I know what that feels like.
BEHAR: Ok. Now, there`s another thing that happened. CNN reported that Cindy and George`s attorney who I interviewed yesterday also, that they said to him they don`t think that the girl is innocent.
CUOMO: I don`t believe it. I don`t believe they said it. I believe Lippman. I believe it`s a context-based discussion.
BEHAR: I see.
CUOMO: And I know you had him on the show at one point to talk to him about it so you put the Behar Test to him, too.
BEHAR: I did give him the Behar Test.
CUOMO: Did he pass the Behar Test?
BEHAR: I don`t know. I`m not sure. I`m not sure. I think he said something, and it was different from what he said in his official statement. So there`s a lot of things that --
CUOMO: It`s difficult. You have to give the benefit of the doubt to these two people, Joy, because they are going through incredible anguish. They lost something that meant everything to them in this little child.
Now basically what they have left, yes, they have a son but to lose your daughter in the same thing, to have to be part of that process, I think you have to give them a lot of leeway. You cannot hold them accountable even if you think they`re being a little uncooperative. You have to give them some leeway because who could even cooperate at all?
BEHAR: Listen, the Behar Test is the following -- if it was my daughter, I would lie on the stand.
CUOMO: You may even say, I won`t testify. I won`t do it.
BEHAR: I don`t know if you can. You can be subpoenaed. You have to -- it`s not like a husband and wife, right?
CUOMO: You could fight it. You could be in contempt of court, but you could fight it. It might be somewhat understandable it being their daughter. But I think the Behar Test is a good test.
BEHAR: But I would lie. I said that on this show. A lot of people - - I said it on "The View", also. I think people are appalled by that statement. But I`m Italian, I would lie for her. My daughter -- come on.
CUOMO: And then you give us a bad name.
BEHAR: I`m sorry.
CUOMO: You give our people a bad name when you say that.
BEHAR: I`m not saying -- just for my daughter. I`m not a liar generally, but I would do it for my own kid. Because what`s the point? Now you lost your grandchild and your daughter is gone? I mean it`s too much. Plus, I would take responsibility for some of the psychotic behavior we`re witnessing. I`d say what did I do? What did we do here?
CUOMO: Imagine being -- it`s literally something you would think you`d read about, where you`re going to sit there and take the beating that George is taking. I have been accused of being an accessory to murder, a child abuser, and a philanderer. And I`m not going to say basically anything, because if I do, if I defend myself, I may jeopardize my daughter. It`s literally almost biblical, what`s going on here.
BEHAR: It is. It`s very Greek -- Greek tragedy-ish.
CUOMO: It is.
BEHAR: Although they`re not -- well, Greek tragedy you have to be really like a king or a queen or president or something.
CUOMO: But we have elevated them to royalty. I`ve taken care of that -- the Cuomo Test. They`re on television all the time now.
BEHAR: We all have taken care of them unfortunately.
Ok. Now, Casey`s attorney Jose Baez got in a lot of trouble this week. Let`s watch that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, PRESIDING OVER CASEY ANTHONY`S TRIAL: What you`re saying sir, is that you can pick which court orders you comply with and which court orders you don`t comply with, and that`s not going to happen here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Baez is making a lot of errors. Do you think he`s inept, first of all?
CUOMO: No.
BEHAR: Or are these on purpose errors?
CUOMO: I think -- who knows? Who knows the heart of the man, but this happens, this type of gamesmanship. You have to give some credit to the judge.
BEHAR: The judge, yes.
CUOMO: -- who has a beautiful name himself, Belvin. It`s a beautiful first name for the judge. And he has been basically laying down the law; this is my court, I`m the referee. I don`t like the shenanigans.
The prosecution, too -- he gave the prosecution extra time to go talk to Rodriguez, one of the experts. They came back and said we didn`t have enough time. And he said well, if you don`t want to work hard enough. I`ll make sure you do that.
So gamesmanship between attorneys go; the competence of Baez, let`s leave that to the side.
BEHAR: Anything here for appeal?
CUOMO: On the basis of his conduct as an attorney, no unless that accident theory winds up being not up to snuff with the Behar Test.
BEHAR: Well, let me ask you a question.
CUOMO: Because then he could say, I couldn`t appropriately defend them because I got bad information so I hurt Casey. This was ineffective counsel. That`s grounds for retrial.
BEHAR: I`m not a lawyer so I can say this. What I think happened. What do you think I think happened?
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: You`re not really asking me a question right now, by the way. But go ahead, answer your own question.
BEHAR: This is what I think. This is what I think. I think -- tell me where I`m off on this -- she was chloroforming the kid on a regular basis because she wanted to go out partying, like chloroform is the babysitter.
CUOMO: Zanny the nanny.
BEHAR: There was an accident, she overdosed on the thing and the girl freaked out and just tried to cover it up. I don`t know -- then she said the kid drowned. I don`t know where the duct tape comes into this though. Where does that come in?
CUOMO: Well, following your analysis, which is probably the most humane situation we can think of here, right? It`s probably the nicest way that this could have gone wrong.
BEHAR: I`m saying it could have been an accident, but it`s a nasty accident.
CUOMO: It is a nasty accident.
BEHAR: It`s not like the girl drowned because she couldn`t swim or she fell into the pool.
CUOMO: The drowning never happened. You`re saying that this was about the chloroform.
BEHAR: No. It never happened. I`m saying that`s an accident that people get into.
CUOMO: And then you have to parse -- well, even though that`s the most benign thing here, that`s a pretty horrible way to put your kid to sleep. Maybe that`s why all the research was done.
BEHAR: That`s right.
CUOMO: However, the duct tape would be a logical extension of a cover-up to make it look like it was an abduction.
BEHAR: Right. Right.
CUOMO: And a killing.
BEHAR: That`s why I think the whole thing is crazy and no one can figure this case out. We`re never going to know what really happened.
CUOMO: We may never know what really happened and the bar is very high here. Death penalty eligible case and it`s easy to look at the situation as it stands, not being in the box. Even though I have been a juror and I do know how juries can change when they go back and say, the prosecution hasn`t made a high enough case.
BEHAR: And so they can`t get the death penalty then.
CUOMO: They may not get the death penalty because they have to get first-degree murder. They`ll probably wind up offering lesser crimes here.
BEHAR: Ok. So the girl is going to get something, though, isn`t she?
CUOMO: She may well get something.
BEHAR: Ok. I know you don`t have to answer this, but is your brother Andrew going to -- the gay marriage thing?
CUOMO: He is obviously an advocate of the law.
BEHAR: He is.
CUOMO: He`s been trying very adamantly.
BEHAR: Is he going to do it?
CUOMO: His administration has been trying. I believe Andrew Cuomo does everything he sets out to do.
BEHAR: I love Andrew Cuomo. And I love Chris Cuomo.
CUOMO: Does he pass the Behar Test.
BEHAR: Along with the whole Cuomo family is fabulous.
And be sure to watch Chris on ABC`s 20/20 tonight for an investigation of Internet dating scams -- very interesting.
We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Everything I know about women`s prisons I learned from the movie "Women Behind Bars". But for Casey Anthony prison life is a reality. She`s been behind bars since 2008 and may be there forever if she is convicted of killing her daughter Caylee.
Here to discuss just what goes on inside the walls of a women`s prison are Stacey Lannert, the author of "Redemption", who served 18 years for killing her father; and Casey Jordan, criminologist and contributor for "In Session" on TruTV.
Stacey, you spent 18 years in prison for killing your father who you say was molesting you. How did you survive in prison for 18 years? My God.
STACEY LANNERT, AUTHOR, "REDEMPTION": Well, a combination of things. Luckily I had friends. I had faith. And I had quite a few activities such as training service dogs for champs, teaching aerobics, and working with at-risk juveniles.
BEHAR: I see. But let me ask you something -- Casey, maybe you know this -- do all the inmates know what the other inmates did?
CASEY JORDAN, CONTRIBUTOR, "IN SESSION" ON TRUTV: Oh yes. Well, the code is that you never ask, but everybody knows. They just know. There`s such an amazing underground network of gossip. And there is no way on earth that if Casey goes to prison -- everyone will know why she`s there.
BEHAR: Right. Well, they have televisions in prison.
JORDAN: Not only that, they may have to send her to an entirely different state because of her notoriety.
BEHAR: But still, they watch my show everywhere.
JORDAN: Everywhere especially in prison -- especially in prisons.
BEHAR: Especially in prisons.
JORDAN: What else is there to watch?
So yes, everyone -- if she goes to prison, everyone will know why she`s there, there`s no doubt.
BEHAR: Ok. Now, Stacey, aren`t people that commit -- who commit certain crimes considered the lowest of the low in jail? Like for instance, if you kill your child -- I know child molesters have a lot of the trouble in prison. What about women who kill their children?
LANNERT: Oh, yes. They`re considered the same pariah as a child molester. They are the lowest of the low. And they will never have any peace -- ever.
BEHAR: So what happens -- what will happen to her? If she`s not in isolation -- don`t they keep them in isolation, Casey, when they -- the child murderers?
JORDAN: Well, generally --
(CROSSTALK)
LANNERT: Sometimes.
BEHAR: Yes.
JORDAN: Yes, sometimes. Stacey is absolutely correct. The bottom line though, is that she`ll request it. If she doesn`t request it she`s going to get majorly beat up within the first 24 hours and then she`ll request it. Am I wrong, Stacey?
LANNERT: No, you are correct.
JORDAN: Right, so --
LANNERT: She absolutely will.
BEHAR: Why are you laughing, Stacey?
LANNERT: Well, because she`s so correct. She`s absolutely right on.
BEHAR: You were laughing at how correct Casey is. Ok.
LANNERT: Yes.
BEHAR: There are so many Casey -- the name, you have to change your name.
JORDAN: No I know.
BEHAR: Change your name.
JORDAN: And I`ve been called Casey Anthony twice on the Internet since -- you know --
BEHAR: How annoying.
JORDAN: I had it first. I had the name first.
BEHAR: I know you did. Look. Let`s see, describe -- Stacey, tell me what life is like behind those walls because you were there. What goes on? Like --
LANNERT: Right.
BEHAR: Yes.
LANNERT: Well, you don`t get to pick who you live with. You`ll have however many roommates they assign you to, usually four or five roommates. Everybody has to work at least six hours a day, five days a week.
BEHAR: Doing what? Making like license plates --
LANNERT: Anything that they assign.
BEHAR: My favorite -- the comedians always talk about the New Hampshire "Live Free or Die" is on their license plate.
JORDAN: Right.
BEHAR: And they`re all in prison making those. That is the definition of irony.
JORDAN: Yes.
LANNERT: But this maybe -- that is one of the jobs, but there`s tons of other jobs too.
(CROSSTALK)
JORDAN: Right.
LANNERT: From cleaning the floors to preparing the food. So she`s going to have some interaction with other inmates even if it`s just through her job site.
And then recreation`s available. It should be available; a couple hours at different points of time during the day.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes, go ahead.
JORDAN: Well and Stacey`s right, but I think she`s talking about general population. If Casey Anthony ends up in protective custody, she will only get one hour a day out of her cell at times. And that interaction with the other inmates -- and Stacey just said she had activities, she had friends; those are the things that kept her going during her 18 years.
Casey Anthony may not get those if she`s in protective custody. So she will have a lot of psychological, dare I say, punishment, as well.
BEHAR: When you watch the case, Casey, do you notice -- does she look scared?
JORDAN: With her, who could tell? Which face of Casey Anthony are we talking about?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You can`t tell what she`s --
JORDAN: Is the jury in the room or not in the room? I mean does she know the camera`s on her or not? I mean we see so many faces of Casey Anthony. Is she -- is -- they say there`s no atheist in a fox hole.
On that day when the verdict is read, you may see the first real tears from Casey Anthony because she is going to be thinking of the judgment of this jury and she might get scared then. Right now --
BEHAR: The tears that she hasn`t shed for the child --
(CROSSTALK)
JORDAN: Yes.
BEHAR: -- she has shed for herself.
JORDAN: Oh, true, true. And I really don`t think she has entered the fear zone yet. But I think she will. She`s in denial. Its self- preservation is what she has to do.
BEHAR: Stacey, when you were in prison, were there any celebrities there? Because this girl is considered a celebrity now in a certain way -- you know what I mean?
LANNERT: Yes, I think that was me when I was incarcerated.
BEHAR: You were the celebrity.
(CROSSTALK)
LANNERT: So --
BEHAR: Why, because you had a very high-profile case. Is that why?
LANNERT: Yes. I did.
And she does, too. And that`s going to be a strike against her. They`re waiting on her when she comes into prison already.
BEHAR: So it doesn`t help to be a celebrity in prison. I thought it might help. I mean when Martha Stewart which was -- because she was convicted of a white-collar crime, she was a celebrity in prison. Nobody treated Martha badly. But of course I`m not comparing the two, obviously.
But if you`re a celebrity like this girl, Casey or like a -- like a criminal celebrity --
JORDAN: It depends on the crime, Joy.
BEHAR: Yes. Right.
JORDAN: I mean what Stacey did -- I`ll bet there were other inmates in prison who didn`t have a problem with what she did because her father was abusive. But what Casey did --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Is that true, Stacey? Wait before you --
LANNERT: Yes.
BEHAR: That is true?
So they liked you because they knew what your father did to you. They probably felt that they had been molested also; probably a lot of them had been themselves.
JORDAN: Right.
BEHAR: So they -- they identified and empathized with you, right?
LANNERT: Right. So most people could understand why I wound up in that situation and could even put themselves in that situation.
With Casey Anthony, very few people are going to be able to understand why she did what she did. There`s not going to be any empathy and no compassion.
BEHAR: Ok. We`ll -- we`ll have more on this in a minute. Stay right where you are. I`m stuttering. I`m so excited about this topic.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my guests and we`re continuing our conversation about Casey Anthony`s life behind bars. You were saying to me something before off camera. We were talking about the fact that I don`t see how she can get the death penalty or Murder One or maybe even manslaughter because the prosecution has not proven the cause of death beyond a reasonable doubt.
JORDAN: Well, they`ve proved that -- the manner of death, of course, is homicide.
BEHAR: Right.
JORDAN: And Dr. G. slammed this, slam-dunked her presentation about children who die accidentally don`t have duct tape wrapped around their heads. This kind of articulation really speaks to the jury.
Now, I don`t, for one second think she`s going to get the death penalty. I`ll give you that it could be a toss-up between first degree and aggravated manslaughter of a child because you could go either way.
But I listened carefully to voir dire of the jury. They`re going to go with what they think is reasonable; not the legal definition, not the scientific definition, but the human I am a Floridian who doesn`t like women who kill their children --
BEHAR: Why do you have to be a Floridian to prove that point?
JORDAN: Because they convict people, I`m telling you. This is a state that convicts people -- and Texas -- they won`t have to put her to death. They`re not going give her the capital punishment, no way.
BEHAR: Why not?
JORDAN: Because at some level the things you`re talking about, those little holes that are not enough to make them vote not guilty will be enough to spare her life.
BEHAR: I see. But if she`s isolated which she probably will be, right --
JORDAN: If she`s convicted.
BEHAR: And you say one -- what did you say? Did you say one hour a day out of the cell?
JORDAN: Generally a protective custody is one hour a day.
Don`t forget, Jeffrey Dahmer was in protective custody, he got out to do one of those jobs Stacey was talking about, mopping the floors --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: And they killed him.
JORDAN: -- and another inmate killed him. If you`re a pariah, you are in danger. And it has a very horrible effect on you psychologically. The idea --
BEHAR: Were there any pariahs when you were back there in prison, Stacey? Was there anybody like that?
LANNERT: Oh, absolutely.
BEHAR: There were?
LANNERT: Absolutely. We had tons of people who -- well, not tons, but we had quite a few people who were in there for child molestation. Some of the worst cases you could ever believe. And you know, they become prey; if anybody`s having a bad day, they take it out on that person.
BEHAR: But it`s not the same as a men`s prison where there, is you know, lots of -- rapes and all sorts of violence that goes on, I think. I mean this is what I`ve seen on television.
LANNERT: Right. Women`s prisons are not as violent as men`s prisons; like I never had a fight while I was incarcerated. However, these people are picked on, preyed upon, and they receive the violence that is in the women`s prison.
BEHAR: Is there a lot of women-on-women sexual behavior going in women`s prisons? I have to ask you this.
(CROSSTALK)
LANNERT: Yes, but most of it`s not forced, it`s chosen.
BEHAR: It`s chosen. There`s a lot of what they call coupling going in women`s prisons?
LANNERT: Yes. Absolutely.
BEHAR: Even women who would be straight outside become lesbians in prison? Is that what happens?
LANNERT: Yes.
JORDAN: Yes.
LANNERT: A lot of times. Not all the time. But people get lonely.
BEHAR: Yes, of course. I saw you in March last year, you were on my show. What have you been doing with yourself since then?
LANNERT: Well, I`m running a non-profit. It`s Healing Sisters. And I have returned to school full time. And I`m going to be seeking a law degree.
BEHAR: Wow. Good for you, Stacey. We`re so happy for you.
LANNERT: Thank you.
JORDAN: She did great.
BEHAR: Thank you very much, you guys.
JORDAN: She`s amazing.
BEHAR: Stacey`s book is called "Redemption".
We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: The duchess of York, Sarah Ferguson, has spent a lot of time in the tabloids, but who hasn`t? I spent one filthy weekend with Andie Griffith and they never leave me alone. Anyway, the scandals and turmoil took a huge toil on her psyche, so she embarked on a healing journey, documenting in a new book called "Finding Sarah," and a new series on the Own Network of the same name. In this scene, she consults a shaman.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH FERGUSON, DUCHESS OF YORK: Why! That`s good.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just when you do the movement, don`t comment on it. Stay with it. Stay in it.
FERGUSON: OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Where does one find shamans nowadays? Shamans R Us?
With me now is the very lovely Sarah Ferguson, duchess of York. Hello, Sarah, so happy to see you again.
FERGUSON: Thank you for having me on your show. It`s exciting. It`s a first.
BEHAR: Yes, it is a first, that`s right. I think you`re the first royal we`ve had on, also. You`re still a royal?
FERGUSON: Well, no. I am the duchess of York and I live in the same house as my handsome prince, but I wouldn`t say that I`m part of the royal family. I`m divorced from the royal family.
BEHAR: I know. I know. You had the mother-in-law from hell, if you want my opinion.
FERGUSON: Actually, you know what, Joy? She is the finest lady I ever met in my life.
BEHAR: Oh, really?
FERGUSON: I just absolutely adore her.
BEHAR: Then why didn`t she invite you to the wedding?
FERGUSON: It wasn`t her choice.
BEHAR: Why not? She`s the queen. Who else has got authority over the queen?
FERGUSON: It was so wonderful because it was William`s day, and he was happy. And him and Katherine looked so great. And the girls, I was proud of the girls.
BEHAR: Oh, Beatrice and Eugenie. I know.
FERGUSON: Did you like the hat?
BEHAR: Oh, the hat is a riot. Who picked out that hat, I mean?
FERGUSON: Well, she and Phillip Treacy. Great man, wonderful Irishman. Full of joy.
BEHAR: People are saying, oh, Sarah Ferguson probably picked it out so that they would have fun and all the cameras would be on Beatrice. And then--
FERGUSON: It`s funny how they all think that about me. I was tucked away in Nimbrace (ph), in Thailand, listening to sort of the harmony of all the birds.
BEHAR: Is that what you were doing during the wedding?
FERGUSON: I was. I was at a place called Carmala (ph), which is a great wellness center, and I went there to learn to meditate and be calm and be cool.
BEHAR: Did you learn how to do it?
FERGUSON: I did. I did. And it didn`t have any televisions or radios, so that was an added bonuses.
BEHAR: Did you do that on purpose?
FERGUSON: Yes.
BEHAR: You did it on purpose, to get away from it all.
FERGUSON: Yes, I did, yes.
BEHAR: But no. The hat, Beatrice, she sold that hat -- they sold it on Ebay or something?
FERGUSON: $130,000.
BEHAR: Good for her.
FERGUSON: And she turned a disaster into a triumph.
BEHAR: I think she had a sense of humor about it. And that was charming. And we all had fun with it, and so what? It`s a hat.
FERGUSON: Yes. And actually, you know, they were -- they loved the day. You know? And I think Andrew was on the morning he rang me and he said, you know, gosh, here we -- it`s going to Westminster Abbey. And I said, yes, are you wearing your same uniform? He went, duh, I`ve been promoted, I`ve got more gold bands, which I love in a way. Because that sort of -- he made it real. And I went with him, he took a photograph of me in his pocket.
BEHAR: But you know, you have to know that we`ve been talking about the fact that you weren`t invited to the wedding quite a bit on this show.
FERGUSON: Have you?
BEHAR: Yes. I thought it was wrong. I did. I think it`s a bad idea. I mean, not that they can -- they`re not exactly the Waltons, the royal family, you know what I`m saying? The Nazi uniform, the tampon episode with Charles. They got after you for toe sucking. Meanwhile, what about that conversation of the tampon with Camilla? You know what I mean?
FERGUSON: Joy, you have been around a long time. Of course--
BEHAR: Yes, I have been.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: -- when I was born.
FERGUSON: Almost the same as me. I was born in `59, and those days were so different, you know? And now you literally can`t move anywhere without some sort of Twitter or somebody doing something. They`re on you. Yes, so I was sad, very sad not to be there, but I was very, very happy that it was a young, new couple, fresh--
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: It`s great to see the young royals really in harmony together.
BEHAR: Do you think that if Diana were alive they would have invited her to the wedding? It is her son.
FERGUSON: I think definitely. Yes.
BEHAR: Even if she was going out with Dodie Fayed?
FERGUSON: I don`t know. I don`t know.
BEHAR: They`re capable of not inviting the mother because they don`t like who she`s going out with. It`s possible with these people. I`m not a fan.
OK, let`s get to the harder stuff about that damn tape about you in the hotel room.
FERGUSON: Oh, for heaven`s sake.
BEHAR: I know. Let`s watch it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FERGUSON: Five hundred thousand pounds, when you can, to me, open doors.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It would be Prince Andrew?
FERGUSON: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that a deal?
FERGUSON: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: OK. She has her fingers in her ears. She doesn`t want to listen to this. I know, I don`t blame you, because some people were saying you were selling access to Andrew. But you say no.
FERGUSON: No. What I say is that I can`t even look at that sad person. I was just lost completely. And it makes me really -- I find the whole thing really hard, you know? I didn`t realize that it would be seen as selling access. I didn`t even think about it.
BEHAR: What does it mean when you say 500,000 pounds to me when you can to me, open doors, it would be Prince Andrew? What does that mean, that they would meet him?
FERGUSON: It`s all been very heavily edited, Joy.
BEHAR: Oh, it has been?
FERGUSON: Because they forgot to write all the bits about charity and everything else.
BEHAR: So fill us in. Fill us in. What were you doing there? What were you talking about?
FERGUSON: What it was is I think after many years, I had gotten to the point of being this people pleaser and working so hard to try and keep all my staff and to keep it all in a certain place. And then I was doing speaking engagements, like every two weeks in order to try and keep above the parapet. To keep -- and I hadn`t really -- I lost my way. It was like, looking back, who was that? Where was I? And my girls say right now, mom, you know, in a way we want to thank the "News of the World," because they gave us our mommy, because they stopped you from going, burning out, I think.
BEHAR: Oh, that`s interesting.
FERGUSON: It is interesting. And on the day, Joy, when I saw that man on Tuesday -- if I could just have a minute.
BEHAR: Yes. Go ahead.
FERGUSON: I was with that man. A friend of mine for 15 years introduced me to him saying, oh, yes, he`s great, he`s from India, he`s got a big company, and my father and his father went to school together. So you go along for the lunch. And the man said -- he couldn`t look me in the eye and he kept twitching his leg. I said, are you nervous about something? What`s wrong with you? And in my heart, my instinct knew he was -- something was wrong.
And he said, no, no, no, I just want to invest in your business and help do charity work. I said, well, look, I`m going to London next week. He said, I`ll meet you in London for dinner. That was a week later, he came. So before I went to dinner, I said, can you sign a confidentiality agreement, please, and he declined. Then and there I knew it was wrong. Why didn`t I just leave? Anyway, what I said to him was--
BEHAR: You had an instinct that something was off but you didn`t go with the instinct. Because why?
FERGUSON: Because I wasn`t aware like I am now. I didn`t listen to my heart. I just overrode it.
BEHAR: You didn`t trust yourself.
FERGUSON: I didn`t trust myself. I didn`t -- I was so naive and so desperate to please all the staff I had, all the debts I had, that I didn`t think of the consequences that this could be a setup.
BEHAR: That`s another thing. You had so many debts, you were bankrupt you say at the time, I guess, right?
FERGUSON: Financially and emotionally, Joy. Yes.
BEHAR: Well, why didn`t Andrew give you some money?
FERGUSON: Well, it wasn`t really like that, because I didn`t think anyone was really watching. I was going at such a speed. I was, everything`s fine, I`m all right, you know, the FINE -- frustrated, insecure, neurotic and emotional.
And the saddest thing is, is that I went to dinner, and because Andrew and I and the girls are all a team, and the man said -- you know how clever the journalists are, they put words into your mouth, and they then edit and cut and then make it out, and then the world saw whatever they wanted to show.
BEHAR: Right.
FERGUSON: So I was sitting there and I went, yes, yes, yes, too much wine, you know. Exhausted, absolutely exhausted. And I made a big, giant mistake.
BEHAR: You made a mistake. All right.
FERGUSON: I made a mistake. And I made a mistake, and I still have to sit here and say --
BEHAR: I think you suffered more than you had to. You`re not Charles Manson, Sarah. You know what I mean? It`s like so you made a mistake. So what?
FERGUSON: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: People look at this and the sex scandals we`re dealing with constantly. Those are mistakes, you know?
FERGUSON: I think the great thing, Joy, is that, you know, I`m one of those people, I went, Sarah, you did it, and now you`ve got to repair. And Andrew`s been amazing. In fact, he`s helped me with all of my finances and in fact he`s helped -- I`m now debt-free.
BEHAR: That`s great.
FERGUSON: And he`s been there for me.
BEHAR: I`m glad for you, and I want to find out when we come back whether Dr. Phil helped you at all.
FERGUSON: All right, OK.
BEHAR: So we`ll have more with Sarah Ferguson in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FERGUSON: Whole bookshops don`t have my books, because they think that I`m not the kind of person they want in their bookshops. That was pretty sad to hear that. I can`t let that discourage me. I`m here to reinvent myself and that`s what really matters.
BEHAR: Glad to see you`re back.
FERGUSON: Coming back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That was me running into the duchess of York, Sarah Ferguson, on 57th Street. I can`t believe I didn`t stop. There must have been a big sale at Bloomingdale`s.
I`m back with Fergie herself. So you know, I watched the episode where you and Dr. Phil had a chat. And he was telling you that you`re addicted to being liked. Right?
And he was a little hard on you with that, I think. Most people want to be liked, but you tell me why it`s an addiction for you.
FERGUSON: Well, I didn`t realize it was an addiction until he told me. And I actually wanted to hug him, because, you know, when somebody suddenly labels your behavior, you suddenly go, OK, now I can fix it. And it gave me hope.
What I want to do is I want everyone to love me. And therefore, you go and you do everything else for everybody else and you get caught, which is what happened to me.
BEHAR: But let me be an armchair shrink for a second, because I also heard about your early childhood, where your mother abandoned you basically at 12 years old, and then you had some other things where your father was not very nice to you.
FERGUSON: Called (inaudible).
BEHAR: Called you names and everything. Well, that will lower your self-esteem, and -- your mother leaving, a child must think, my goodness, I must be so unlovable, you know? And of course, like me, like me, my mommy didn`t like me. I mean, it`s a very deep issue. I don`t think that Dr. Phil can fix it in one session on an Own channel. It`s something that I thought, I hope that you are looking into that further and not just doing this show.
FERGUSON: No. Thank you, Joy, because the whole point --
BEHAR: That will be $50.
(LAUGHTER)
FERGUSON: The whole point of this, of doing "Finding Sarah" is that when the cameras stop, it`s a real work in progress. And so after the cameras stopped in January, I took myself off for three, four weeks, and I did four hours a day on personal mentoring on this exact subject.
BEHAR: Right. I mean, some people are asking, why are you doing a TV show, et cetera? And I don`t really think that that`s a fair question, because a lot of people do TV shows. We all work for a living. And this is the one you decided to do. I think that your show is particularly painful for you, and it`s hard to watch because you`re in such pain sometimes, you know?
FERGUSON: Well, I think that being such a public figure and having humiliated myself so suitably well, you get to a point where, when someone says, why did you go seek help and the cameras are there, let them in. You`ve gone and blown it anyway, so why don`t you just go and learn some more. And in learning, you know, it`s not about me. It`s about the viewer. Let`s say the viewer can say, well, I don`t want to even mention it, but maybe through her I can, and I hope, I hope that that`s -- in my microscopic (ph) world that people can see, OK, maybe I can help myself. There`s a lot of lonely people out there.
BEHAR: You know people like that?
FERGUSON: No, there`s a lot of lonely people.
BEHAR: A lot of lonely people.
FERGUSON: Yes.
BEHAR: Who need to have some kind of help, I think. You know, I do psychodrama. You ever try that?
FERGUSON: No. What`s that?
BEHAR: Well, you basically do some role playing. So we would have you in a room with you and your mother. And you would reverse roles with her. You`d say, mommy, why did you leave? And she -- you would answer as her. And you might be able to come to some conclusion.
FERGUSON: Yes. Well, actually, funnily enough, we call that neurolinguistic programming in the Warrior (ph) program, and I`ve been working with--
BEHAR: That`s good.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: -- two years on that. And it really does work. We go back in time, back to the time line, and I speak to my mom.
BEHAR: 12 years old. That`s it.
FERGUSON: And go backwards (ph) and look down.
BEHAR: Oh, perfect.
FERGUSON: That`s what I do.
BEHAR: That`s very similar. And I think that -- because that way you connect the insight with the feeling.
FERGUSON: Right.
BEHAR: And it all comes together for you.
FERGUSON: Right. And if you can change the way the program looks, then you can change it in the right way. And that`s what I did.
BEHAR: But one more question on that and then I`ll get off the shrink couch.
FERGUSON: No. It`s fun.
BEHAR: Do you get in touch with your rage towards your mother for doing that?
FERGUSON: Well, funnily enough, I had actually got to the point where I was able to say, you know, why did you go? And--
BEHAR: And I`m furious with you for doing it.
FERGUSON: I think the most important thing was it wasn`t -- she didn`t let me say, but why are you going, at the time. I remember it very well. I thought to myself, well, I better shut it all down, because otherwise she`ll be upset. And I did -- that`s when food took over.
BEHAR: And you`re also scared. You`re being abandoned, so you`re not going to ask question. And you become more timid.
FERGUSON: Then you put up a brick wall.
BEHAR: Right.
FERGUSON: And actually, you know, what`s interesting, in 1972, whenever she left, there was no telephones to Argentina.
BEHAR: She went to Argentina. Like Governor Sanford. What is it about Argentina? Did she go off with a man?
FERGUSON: Yes, an Argentine polo player. And lived right down south, so you could never get to speak to her. So -- and then we went to war against the country, so I lost --
BEHAR: The Falklands.
FERGUSON: So I not only lost mom to a country and a man, but I also lost her to war.
BEHAR: OK. I want people to watch a little segment of you talking about your mother.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FERGUSON: I believed that I caused my mother to leave, and therefore I`m worthless and unlovable. My mom left me when I was 12 and she ran off with an Argentine polo player. As soon as she left, I remember going with my pony into the sweet shop and buying sweets, and then sitting with my pony, eating the sweets. And I remember that really well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: So when you watch that, what do you think?
FERGUSON: Poor mom.
BEHAR: Poor mom. Not poor Sarah?
FERGUSON: No. Because I forgave mom and I love mom. And she died in a hellacious car crash.
BEHAR: She did? Oh, she had a car crash.
FERGUSON: On a Sunday--
BEHAR: It`s a tough one. See, it`s a very tough knot to figure out, because the mother leaves the child. The child is furious. And then the mother dies in a car crash, so you don`t even have time to be mad.
FERGUSON: Yes.
BEHAR: Because you`re so worried about mummy.
FERGUSON: And also Hector, the man she ran off with, died of cancer at 50 years old. So she didn`t have very many years with him anyway. And then she was a widow, sad, miserable, living in the pampas. So she -- you couldn`t ever ask her to be the mother then, because she was really needing to mother herself.
BEHAR: Right. I just hope that you feel as sorry for little Sarah as you do for mom.
We`ll be back with Sarah Ferguson after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with the duchess of York, Ms. Sarah Ferguson. Now, you and Prince Andrew are living together still, you still love each other. But what about -- first of all, is it strictly platonic at this point, or is there a little hanky panky?
FERGUSON: No, so -- British hanky panky. We`re keeping it clean, Joy. We`re keeping it clean.
BEHAR: Keeping it platonic.
FERGUSON: We are yes, completely. No, we`ve been -- we`re very happily divorced to each other. When I`m in England, I do stay in one of his guest rooms. It`s quite kind of a large house, he`s got one or two lying around.
BEHAR: That`s nice. Do you date anybody else? What`s going on with your love life?
FERGUSON: No, absolutely zero.
BEHAR: Zero.
FERGUSON: I decided that it is like a desert out here, you know, and it`s time, it`s time. But actually, if anyone comes along, they`re going to have to put up with the press and blah, blah, blah. And him because Prince Andrew is always there with me. So they`re going to have to--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: So what are you going to do? You can`t be just a single woman for the rest of your life, can you?
FERGUSON: Well, I`m 51. Hopefully not.
BEHAR: No.
FERGUSON: No.
BEHAR: So you`d have to do something about that.
FERGUSON: Well, I don`t know. OK, more therapy. What do I do?
BEHAR: What kind of men are you interested in?
FERGUSON: Humor, tall.
BEHAR: Humor, tall. Yes.
FERGUSON: Good looking, great looking.
BEHAR: President Obama?
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I think he`s kind of unavailable. What about Liam Neeson, he`d be great.
BEHAR: Liam Neeson. Oh, the widower. I mean--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: That`s perfect. And you`re both -- he`s not really British. He`s Irish.
FERGUSON: Irish, but I`m Irish.
BEHAR: Close enough -- oh, you`re Irish, of course.
FERGUSON: Red hair and you know--
BEHAR: So he`s your type.
FERGUSON: Feisty and -- let`s put it out through the show.
(LAUGHTER)
FERGUSON: Maybe his agent`s listening.
BEHAR: Who else? Let`s say Liam is not available, who else?
FERGUSON: Unavailable, I think.
BEHAR: Do you go for power, do you go for looks?
FERGUSON: No, no, humor. Slightly cutting edge, a bit wacky. I mean, I`ve had the best with Andrew. I did. Best looking --
BEHAR: But when you married him, you didn`t really know him very well, and the marriage -- what did you say, you spent 40 days a year with him.
FERGUSON: Yes. For the past five years, (inaudible).
BEHAR: So how long did you know him before you actually got married? You were a pretty bride, by the way.
FERGUSON: Thank you.
BEHAR: Very pretty.
FERGUSON: Yes, well, actually, we met in August. And I had three dinner dates in a weekend and we got married in July.
BEHAR: So you were just unformed, both of you.
FERGUSON: But Diana had the same with Charles.
BEHAR: Oh, yes.
FERGUSON: And I think after that, after Diana and I, the other brides, they have had -- I think that everybody got to understand it`s better to go and sort of spend some time, knowing what you`re getting into.
BEHAR: How do you think the queen mom is feeling about Kate? She is a commoner, as they say, which is such a derogatory term, isn`t it?
FERGUSON: Everybody`s a human being. And true royalty is royalty in heart, you know?
BEHAR: That`s right, Sarah. I really wish you the best, my dear. I`m glad you came by. And you`re doing great. "Finding Sarah" airs Sunday at 9 p.m. on Own. And her book, also called "Finding Sarah," is available in stores on June 28th.
Thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
