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Joy Behar Page
Casey Anthony, a Free Woman; Looking Back at the O.J. Verdict
Aired July 18, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, more questions than answers after Casey Anthony was whisked from jail under the cover of night. Who is she staying with and for how long? What are her plans? According to Jose Baez those plans don`t involved any million-dollar deals.
Then, is case ready for life on the outside? Stacey Lannert spent years in prison for killing her abusive father. And Joy will talk to her about re-entering the world after being a high profile inmate.
Plus the marriage between Jennifer Lopez and Marc Anthony may be over but their business deals live on.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: Casey Anthony walked out of prison a free woman early Sunday morning. But where she went is anybody`s guess. One thing we do know is that Casey`s parents, Cindy and George Anthony, were completely left out of the loop. Joining me are Nathan Lezniewicz, who got to know Casey when he lived with her ex-boyfriend, Tony Lazzaro; Mark Nejame, former attorney for Cindy and George Anthony.
But first I want to start with Beth Karas, correspondent for in session on TruTV. Beth, the whole thing happened so quickly. She just walked right out. Why didn`t she go out a back door?
BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, you know, they had a couple of backup scenarios set up, Joy. But the first plan was to treat her like any other inmate leaving, although she had to have more security than other inmates. Let her go out the front door, they assessed the situation and decided that it was secure enough so that`s the way she went. They didn`t even have to think about scenarios two and three and so she went out the front door into the car and was whisked away.
BEHAR: Right. And we don`t know where she went. But there is video of a woman on the tarmac very early on Sunday morning. Do people think that that could be Casey?
KARAS: Yes, there is a lot of speculation that that was Casey. We don`t know for sure, that was a flight, though, that didn`t have a flight plan. And then there have been reports today that there was a flight that left at about that time, 3:00 a.m. that went to Arizona -- to Prescott, Arizona, and then went on to San Francisco.
The pilot of that plane has reportedly said she wasn`t on, but he`s not under any obligation to disclose who his passengers are, so there is some speculation that she`s in Arizona.
BEHAR: I see. Now, George and Cindy`s attorney said the only communication they got from Jose Baez was a text. He`s saying that Casey was safe. Do you think Casey has any intention of contacting her parents?
KARAS: There may come a time, Joy, when she will. She has refused to see her mother since October, 2008, when she cut off her visits with her parents because they were being recorded and released to the public. Her mother tried to see her on the eve of the trial and again after the acquittal and the felonies and Casey refused to see her mother. And her parents refused to be decoys for her release when Baez asked them. That`s through their attorney Mark Lippman.
So I think there may come a time but everyone needs to just cool off right now. Certainly Casey needs to sort of get her act together and decide what she wants with her life.
BEHAR: She`s also appealing the four counts of lying to the police. Can she win that?
KARAS: You know, I think that she`s appealing now so she can continue to assert her fifth amendment in the upcoming deposition in the Zenaida Gonzalez defamation suit that she`s facing.
That will help her to not have to answer questions for a little while. I don`t think she could win it on appeal. Maybe the sentencing she could win. She served a sentence that`s moot. But maybe the cost of the investigation would be diminished and she wouldn`t have to owe as much if a couple convictions were thrown out.
BEHAR: Yes. Right. Ok. Thanks very much, Beth.
KARAS: Sure.
BEHAR: Now let me bring in my panel. Nathan, the photographer with Casey said she appeared to have a slight grin on her face as she walked out. What do you think was going on in her head?
NATHAN LEZNIEWICZ, FORMER ROOMMATE OF CASEY ANTHONY`S EX: You know, honestly, Joy, I saw that also when she was walking out. Also if you noticed her hand, it looked like she almost went to grab Jose`s hand and then kind of made a fist and held off a little bit. I honestly think that in her mind that she feels that she has beat the system. That she got one over on everybody; that she really didn`t have to answer any questions at the end of the day.
If you look at it now, I don`t think that we really know anything more than where we started three years ago with this case.
BEHAR: Well, we don`t. We don`t really know what happened. Maybe we never will. You`re friends with Tony Lazzaro, do you have any idea what he`s thinking right now?
LEZNIEWICZ: I don`t know exactly what Tony`s thinking, I just know -- you know, these last three years has been really hard for him being involved with this the whole situation.
BEHAR: Yes.
LEZNIEWICZ: You know as a young man down from New York just to get an education, meets a nice girl. And then in the matter of five weeks is thrown into the biggest case that America`s ever seen. And that -- that`s really tough. And it`s been tough emotionally for him.
BEHAR: Yes. I can imagine. Beth Karas just said people think she took a plane somewhere, maybe Arizona, then the plane went off to San Francisco. First of all, who paid for the flight? Do you have any idea, Mark?
MARK NEJAME, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR CINDY AND GEORGE ANTHONY: No, we have no idea where she went. But I think your initial assessment is exactly right. Look, somebody is going to have to finance this. Private planes don`t go cheap.
BEHAR: Yes.
NEJAME: And that means that there had to be some sort of deal or some sort of money in play. They`ve denied that. My best guess is that she`s staying with -- in a safe house somewhere and letting some of this cool down, and they`re going drive her somewhere. It would be a plane -- she`s going to know, you`ll have flight patterns, you`re going to have people working at private airports, word`s going to get out.
BEHAR: Right. How much money does she have? How much money can the girl have?
NEJAME: She had about $500 in cash. I think most of those were small checks that people probably sent to the jail so they would get her autograph or signature when it ended up being cashed. One of her lawyers said that one of his interviews that people have sending money to him and that it was in the thousands. But that can only finance so much.
You got to remember she doesn`t have a -- doesn`t have a car. She doesn`t have a passport. She doesn`t have any employment. So somebody`s taking care of her, and to take care of somebody that takes money. So like most cases, follow the money. You got to follow the money.
BEHAR: That is a very interesting point. Somebody is taking care of her. This story will not die.
Now the lawyer for Casey`s parents was on HLN Sunday, and he said that Baez called to ask if he could use the parents as decoys. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK LIPPMAN, LAWYER FOR CINDY AND GEORGE ANTHONY: Last night we got a call from Mr. Baez. He had wanted to use my clients as decoys for the media. And I, of course, did not agree with that, neither did my clients. One, it was risky at best. And two, just, in my opinion, something that would not be beneficial to anybody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Mark, isn`t that a little pushy? I mean, first he accuses George Anthony of molesting her. And now he want to use him as a decoy? That is chutzpah.
NEJAME: Well, you took my word. I think -- I don`t talk about George and Cindy, but I`ll tell you, it gives chutzpah a brand new meaning.
BEHAR: It sure does.
NEJAME: If that`s what in fact occurred. Yes. That`s -- that`s a lot of description you could give to that, but chutzpah with a capital C is one of them.
BEHAR: Now Nathan, you`re a big supporter of Caylee`s Law. What motivated you to get involved in that?
LEZNIEWICZ: You know, over the last couple of years, there`s been so much talk about Casey and her behavior and what all was she doing, her case. Now that that is finally, I guess, moved on, she`s not guilty as found by a jury of her peers, whatever.
I think the focus needs to be about Caylee. And the focus really needs to stay about Caylee and other children. You know, Casey not only had a moral but a legal responsibility to -- to Caylee that needs to be addressed. And that`s what this law, what we hope to do is to ensure that this never happens again.
That a legal guardian of a child or someone with even temporary supervision of a child cannot let it go 31 days before deciding to call law enforcement and say that your child`s missing or that you haven`t seen her. I mean, that is just absolutely ridiculous to me.
BEHAR: Ok. Thanks very much, guys.
You know, maybe putting the spotlight on this case as obsessive as it has been will do some good for other children. I certainly hope so.
Thank you all very much for joining me.
NEJAME: Thank you.
LEZNIEWICZ: Thank you Joy.
BEHAR: We`ll have more on Casey`s release in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Now that Casey Anthony`s free, what kind of life can she have? Here to talk about it are, Stacey Lannert, the author of "Redemption", Stacey served 18 years for killing her father; and Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and a marriage and family therapist.
Stacey, let me start with you. Now, you were in jail for 18 years for killing your abusive father and you were released in 2009. What are those first few hours of freedom like? Tell me.
STACEY LANNERT, SERVED 18 YEARS FOR KILLING FATHER: They were -- are extremely surreal. It`s almost not being able to trust yourself because you`ve been told what to do and how to do it for so long that now you`re on your own. And what do you do with it?
BEHAR: It`s like being a child again.
LANNERT: Yes. Absolutely.
BEHAR: Now your story is different. I mean, what kind of similar challenges might Casey face now that she`s free? I mean, you -- you murdered your father. And she -- she -- all we know is that she didn`t report the child was missing for 31 days, and she`s been found not guilty of murder.
So they are two different cases, but -- I don`t know, it`s like it seems different to me, those two cases, in terms of the way the public sees it. Am I right?
LANNERT: They are both extreme -- yes -- they are both extremely high-profile cases. Mine much more so in Missouri than the rest of the world. But people followed it, and people had an opinion about it.
And so, of course, when I came home, people were very willing to share their opinion with me about how they felt. And luckily, I received all positive attention. And I`m afraid that probably won`t be the case here.
BEHAR: So nobody said to you something negative about the fact that you killed your father? Most people were saying, you go, girl? I mean, what was your response?
LANNERT: They were just -- say that they could understand how I got in the situation and that they were thankful that I had the chance to have a life and to start living a new life.
BEHAR: I see.
Now Bethany, people fear for Casey`s safety. But you say she`s a sociopath. So does Casey fear for her own safety?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Casey does not fear for her safety. And she`s very different than Stacey in one important aspect. That is, sociopaths have very low levels of anxiety about getting into trouble; that`s why they do not learn from their mistakes, that`s why they repeat offend, that`s why they get into trouble in the first place.
We know that anxiety plays a crucial role in the formation of the conscience because it is fear of getting into trouble that causes the conscience to form. And it is fear of getting into trouble that causes most of us to conform to the law as well as altruism.
So she`s going to have a very big challenge now that she`s outside of those prison bars.
BEHAR: Yes. It`s almost like somebody who doesn`t realize they`re being burned. If you don`t feel the burn, you won`t avoid fire. Right?
MARSHALL: That`s true. And also, also with sociopaths, they still long for human contact. I mean we saw her partying and wanting to be with her boyfriends.
BEHAR: Yes.
MARSHALL: But then they engage in very inappropriate behavior which causes others to withdraw, and then they become very depressed.
Now Stacey is different in that she as a victim has parlayed her experience into help for other victims. I`m not so sure that Casey Anthony is going to do that.
BEHAR: No? Why?
MARSHALL: No.
BEHAR: You don`t think so, huh?
MARSHALL: No, because I don`t -- I don`t think she feels that she has done anything wrong.
You know Joy, let me tell you what some ex-convicts face when they get out of prison because it really is a tragedy. It`s hard for them to get a job. When you fill out a job application, you have to check a box have you ever been arrested. If you have been arrested you have to explain why. You have to explain where you`ve been for all those years. You have to establish --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
MARSHALL: -- trust with an employer.
And imagine sharing a marital bed, finances, or a job with somebody who really is never going to be able to trust you.
BEHAR: And then, then also there`s the -- the situation Stacey with her -- with her parents. Her defense attorney has said that her relationship with her family is pretty well burnt. Now how important was family for you in rebuilding your life, Stacey?
LANNERT: They were extremely important because when it all -- all the chips fall down, you really don`t have anyone except for family. You can have great friends but family is the one that loves you the most even though sometimes they hurt you the most.
BEHAR: Did you -- when you got out of jail, did you tell your -- tell people about your past when you met new people? Or did you keep it to yourself?
(CROSSTALK)
LANNERT: Absolutely.
BEHAR: You told them?
LANNERT: I always tell people because I don`t want there to ever be any feelings of betrayal. So I feel like if there`s honesty up front then there can be no betrayal at the end.
BEHAR: Uh-huh. It must be hard, though, when you meet a guy and you`re dating somebody. And you have to say, you know, I have this record where I killed my father -- that`s got to be very tough in that particular instance, no?
LANNERT: It is hard. It`s always extremely uncomfortable. And you`ll meet someone that you like and then with me, I -- of course, I always fear how are they going to react, are they going to want to be around me, are they going to turn away from me.
But I also know that if people do turn away because of my past, then, they`re probably not people that I want to be friends with anyway.
BEHAR: Well, let me ask you, how successful have you been in that department so far? Are you seeing anybody?
LANNERT: I was.
BEHAR: What happened?
LANNERT: Just recently.
That ended. And he was very well aware of where -- where I was. But in the past two years, I`ve changed and grown, and it`s so rapid because it`s almost like I`m growing up for a second time even though now I`m 39 years old.
BEHAR: Yes.
LANNERT: So it`s just a hard, it`s really hard for another person to keep up with all the changes I`m going through every day.
BEHAR: Life begins at 40, Stacey right, Bethany?
LANNERT: I know, that`s what you told me.
MARSHALL: Life begins at 40. You know what, Stacey said something extremely important for me as a clinician. Before the show I found myself questioning, was she really abused by her father? Why did she kill him, does she have criminality like Casey -- but she says something that distinguishes her from Casey and makes her psychology very different.
She says, "I have family who loves me and supports me, family is important, and when I`m with someone who doesn`t understand me, I have to learn and move on." Stacey has a learning curve. She has empathy. She is attached to her family.
Sociopathy is a disorder of detachment. Sociopaths are not attached to and bonded with others. What we see with Casey Anthony, she is avoiding her family. She`s vilifying them.
BEHAR: Yes.
MARSHALL: And we know that she`s sort of angry at her mother. This is very different from what we`re seeing with Stacey.
BEHAR: Right. Well, Stacey`s not a psychopath or sociopath. So Stacey was in a particular circumstance that led her to what she did. I think it`s a completely different thing, right?
MARSHALL: It`s completely different --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
MARSHALL: But I guess I just wanted to say as a clinician, I can see that she`s not one. It`s really apparent to me.
It is going to be apparent to the people who meet Casey Anthony that she falls into that realm of severe personality disorders. And so it`s going to be hard for her to establish relationships and a life.
BEHAR: Yes. You know, let me ask you, Stacey, did you experience remorse at all? Because I don`t think that Casey in that type of personality that you`re describing, Bethany, experiences remorse. Stacey, did you?
LANNERT: No. Oh, yes, absolutely --
BEHAR: You did?
LANNERT: Immediate.
BEHAR: Immediately after killing your father, you felt bad about it, what? What -- what happened to your head?
LANNERT: Well, it just was so overwhelming. How could I have done this thing to this person that even though they hurt me I love? How could I have created this? And it was devastating.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: And now --
MARSHALL: Stacey can I ask -- can I ask Stacey a question?
BEHAR: Sure.
MARSHALL: I`d be really interested.
I read according to one report that you tried to cover up the crime. Was that at first because you were terrified of getting into trouble or because you felt you could manipulate the police?
LANNERT: Oh, no. It was because I didn`t know what to do, and I told someone and that was the advice that they gave me. Very bad advice. I should have just went forward.
MARSHALL: That`s what makes you different from Casey.
BEHAR: Yes. It`s a completely different situation.
MARSHALL: Yes.
BEHAR: And I always appreciate your insight, Bethany. Thank you, Stacey, for sharing. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: O.J. Simpson was found not guilty of murdering his ex-wife, Nicole Brown Simpson, and her friend, Ronald Goldman. Almost 20 years later it`s a case that`s still talked about as one of the most publicized criminal trials in American history.
Here with me now on the phone is the father of Ronald Goldman, Fred Goldman. Fred, you know, we`ve been talking about the Casey Anthony trial now for weeks on this network. And people are so riveted to this. Do you see any parallels between that case and your case with O.J. Simpson?
FRED GOLDMAN, FATHER OF RONALD GOLDMAN (via telephone): Well, the obvious -- one of the obvious parallels is the not guilty verdict. The other one is obviously additionally that both trials were heavily covered by the media. Other than that, no, I don`t see anything.
BEHAR: No. Except that, you know, when the verdict of not guilty came down for O.J. and the same for Casey Anthony, there was public outrage. I think that that would be a very big similarity, don`t you think?
GOLDMAN: Well, I would. But for me, honestly, I didn`t -- I was not surprised at the Casey Anthony verdict. They just didn`t have -- the prosecution just didn`t have hard evidence of her guilt. It was circumstantial. And in this case, I wasn`t surprised.
In our case, we had volumes of hard evidence. And so, therefore, to have a not guilty verdict then was I think for me substantially more shocking. But, of course, I was personally involved.
BEHAR: Yes, of course you were. But you sued O.J. Simpson in a civil trial, and the jury found him liable for damages in the wrongful death of your son. Did that feel like a minor victory for you? Was that any help at all?
GOLDMAN: Honestly, no. It was never an issue of trying to just take money from him. Punish him that way. But since the civil trial was the only ultimate outcome of positive nature, then going after him was a pleasure.
GOLDMAN: Yes.
Now you know, Casey Anthony could make some money -- there`s been talk about that -- on a book deal. Do you think that she should profit from this tragic case?
GOLDMAN: I always have a hard time with the whole issue of -- of profiting from any horrible crime. But there`s no doubt, it`s likely going to happen. The public seems to have an insatiable appetite for this kind of horror.
BEHAR: Uh-huh.
GOLDMAN: And reading about it.
BEHAR: It`s true.
GOLDMAN: For me, I think that since there was so much circumstantial evidence and there`s so much public belief that she committed these crimes, she`d be better off, I think, laying low for a very long time.
BEHAR: Right. Well, you know, O.J. Simpson has now said -- you know this, he`s sitting in jail for a long time for criminal conspiracy, kidnapping, assault, robbery. So is there justice after all for O.J. Simpson?
GOLDMAN: There`s some satisfaction knowing that perhaps that our efforts of chasing him for all those years ultimately paid off. And he was willing to commit a crime to try to keep merchandise away from us.
BEHAR: Yes. Ok, thanks very much, Fred, for joining me. I appreciate it. We`ll be back in a minute.
GOLDMAN: Not at all. My pleasure.
BEHAR: Ok.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Casey Anthony`s release has done nothing to quiet the public outrage against her. In fact, some protesters were even yelling "Justice for Caylee and baby killer" as she was driven away from prison. Where does that anger come from, and is forgiveness possible in the case like this? Joining me to discuss this, are Father Edward Beck, he is a religion contributor for ABC News, and Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, author of "Renewal: A Guide to the Values-Filled Life." Why do you think, Father, there is so much rage toward this girl, Casey Anthony?
FATHER EDWARD BECK: Because there`s no closure. I think people never got to hear what really happened in their minds, and so they figure if there`s no closure, they have to put their anger somewhere, they don`t know what to do with it. And so I think that it comes out in this rage because it`s misplaced really.
BEHAR: But there`s no closure in a lot of cases. Why this one?
BECK: Because it was so heavily covered. People watched this every day and they had their own opinions of her guilt or not being guilty. And when it was left so up-ended, I think it disturbed people. They want to know what happened to this little girl, who should pay for it, what should the just punishment be, and I think that`s the real reason for it, because - and, of course, people have this retribution thing.
BEHAR: Yes.
BECK: They want to get back.
BEHAR: They do.
BECK: And I`m -- I don`t agree with that perspective.
BEHAR: Vindictiveness, too. There`s a lot of vindictiveness. Rabbi, do you think that people feel that she got away with murder? Is that what part of this anger is?
RABBI SHMULEY BOTEACH: Well, firstly, I think that we are being unfair to those who are expressing what you are calling rage. Maybe it`s righteous indignation. I`m not sure that this comes from a feeling of revenge. This might stem from a genuine feeling that we`re tired of children being abused in this country. We`re tired of children being exploited in this country.
BEHAR: Right.
BOTEACH: Maybe it`s the desire to really protect the innocence of a child. We`re tired of women who are young and attractive getting away with things simply because they look so cutie while sitting in court. This was an abominable, monstrous crime. And it`s not about someone having to pay for it, it`s about a dead baby. And whatever you feel whether she was guilty or not, Casey Anthony, you`re talking about a missing child that was not reported for a month.
BEHAR: That`s right.
BOTEACH: You`re talking about the worst mother in the world. And people are justly upset. We`re tired of the fact that ...
BECK: I disagree with you. First of all, you are now indicting her after she has been shown to be innocent in a court of law.
BEHAR: Not innocent. Not guilty.
BECK: Not guilty in the court of law.
BEHAR: That`s different.
BECK: You`re saying the worst mother in the world. All the testimony was that she was very loving with this daughter. It was nothing beforehand ...
BEHAR: But no, she did not report the child missing for 31 days.
BECK: Yeah, but ...
BEHAR: And she was partying the whole time. That`s what he`s talking about.
BECK: Could she not have had a psychological break of denial? The accident happened, her daughter was dead. This is her way of retreating to another world? Kind of protecting herself from it?
BOTEACH: We can -- we can take that approach.
BEHAR: That`s kind of you.
BOTEACH: We can take that approach of excusing abominable, immoral behavior by saying that people snap, or we can finally hold people accountable. The fact is that children in this country are at risk. They are exploited every day for personal gain, profiteering on the part of corporations. The innocence of children is being lost.
BEHAR: It is -- you`re right.
BOTEACH: I don`t call it rage, I call it righteous indignation. And that`s why the vast majority of people who are upset at Casey Anthony are women. It`s their maternal instinct that is driving them to say enough is enough. That`s misplaced.
BEHAR: But you know what - they don`t know the woman. This is not personal.
BOTEACH: But they know that every child is of infinite value, and they know that this child was very precious. And when your child is missing, you go to the police and you say immediately, I want you to dig up the whole damn state of Florida and find my daughter, and I will get the first shovel. What you don`t do is go to a flipping disco. It`s disgusting. It`s abominable and it`s unbelievable.
BEHAR: A flipping disco.
BECK: No, rabbi, you certainly have enough rage in you about this ...
BOTEACH: I`m very upset with the story ...
BECK: My goodness.
BOTEACH: And I`m upset that we don`t know right from wrong in this country anymore.
BEHAR: You`re probably also upset about the other boy, that little Hasidic boy who was killed in Brooklyn last week by this maniac who was -- tell me about that rage.
BOTEACH: Well, Levi Aron, who is a member of our Orthodox Jewish community, ostensibly at least on the outside, really isn`t even a member of the human family. When you do something like that, like dismember a poor, innocent child, and the -- I will -- it will forever be seared on my soul, the security camera pictures of this boy with the backpack, simply looking for home. We`re all searching for home. This kid was two, three blocks away. And the way providence brought him to the one person who`s a diabolical find (ph) in the neighborhood of Borough Park ...
BEHAR: I know.
BOTEACH: And you ask yourself what was God thinking. But this man has no spirit, Levi Aron. He is not a member of the human family. He is a -- a husk. Bereft of a soul or spirit.
BEHAR: Do you agree with that when he says he`s not a member of the human family ...
BECK: No.
BEHAR: Because, you know, the human family has a lot of weird things going on.
BECK: And once again you have a psychotic individual, mentally ill. You cannot simply demonize people who are psychologically ill.
BOTEACH: Father Beck.
BECK: I mean, that is totally -- let me speak, please.
BOTEACH: I`m sorry, I`m sorry.
BECK: You cannot demonize people and say they`re abominable -- and -- I mean what kind of judgment is that? What about judge not and you will not be judged? What about forgiveness, seventy times seven forgiveness, what about taking the plank out of your own eye?
BEHAR: You know, Father Beck, don`t you believe that you -- some things you just can`t forgive?
BECK: No.
BEHAR: You don`t believe that.
BECK: Christian tradition says everything is forgivable. In God`s mercy and compassion, everything is forgivable.
BEHAR: I don`t agree with that.
BOTEACH: I don`t believe ...
BECK: I do. I do think so.
BEHAR: I know you believe that, but I don`t agree with that. There are some crimes that are so heinous, so hellacious that I wouldn`t - couldn`t be able - people who lose their families in the Holocaust. I could never forgive the Nazis for that if this happened to me. I could never forgive this guy if he (ph) killed my child.
BECK: But you live in prison then. You live in prison then.
BEHAR: No, I don`t. I have a righteous anger and rage.
BECK: No, when someone doesn`t forgive it binds you up. It doesn`t really do anything to the perpetrator.
BEHAR: I know. That`s sure. What`s the point?
BECK: It binds you up.
BOTEACH: No, I must respond. Father Beck, it is not for us to forgive the crimes when we are not the victim. Who are we to bestow forgiveness when we are not the object of the injury? On the contrary, that`s intruding upon someone else`s life ...
BECK: Exactly.
BOTEACH: You can`t come to the parents of Leibby Kletzky and say that they should forgive. You don`t understand their pain. Forgive what? Are we really going to take Jesus, who was a Jewish rabbi, and say that he had no morality, that he was prepared to forgive absolutely everything and render Christianity into a useless religion that doesn`t know right from wrong?
BECK: From the cross. From the cross. His own murderers, he said, forgive them, they know not what they are doing.
BOTEACH: But he also said, my God, why has thou forsaken me?
BECK: But that`s not forgiveness, we are talking about forgiveness here.
BOTEACH: Jesus said to God, the Romans should not be doing this to me. Why have you forsaken me?
BEHAR: Let me ask you something, is it easier to forgive when it`s about yourself rather than a child? Because Jesus is saying forgive them for what they do to me. Not to my son or my daughter or whatever.
BECK: But who are you forgiving in this instance? When you`re saying forgive about the child, how can you say forgive Casey Anthony when all we have to forgive her for right now is lying to the police?
BEHAR: No, I`m talking about this other guy.
BECK: Well ...
BEHAR: This other guy who killed this boy. And you know, is it harder, rabbi, to forgive a perpetrator in this particular case that you`re talking about when the crime was committed by someone with ...
BOTEACH: Of course it`s harder because we want to believe that Judaism as a religion tries to sensitize us to the pain of every living creature. Animals, and of course human beings, and this man who`s supposed to share our values could behave so abominably. But Father, he was not psychotic. He said in his police statement that after he suffocated the child with a bath towel, he regretted his actions. He demonstrated a clear understanding of right from wrong. It is not true that we can excuse every evil act by saying that people are psychotic. And by the way, if you believe ...
BECK: Well, pedophilia is an illness --
BOTEACH: If you believe that we should not judge, then you`re saying that Casey Anthony should have never been put on trial. You`re indicting the entire judicial system of the United States.
BEHAR: You know, why do you say that pedophilia is a mental illness? Isn`t it about an adult being powerful over a child ...
BECK: But it`s a mental - no, no.
BEHAR: ... and using that trust to betray that child? Isn`t that what that`s about?
BECK: No, but that attraction is considered a mental illness. It`s a disorder, a sexual disorder. Pedophilia. They can`t help themselves.
BEHAR: What about the cover-up? Is that a sin?
BECK: Well, it`s interesting and this raises another issue -- there were signs in this community that this guy was problematic. And when something like this happens, they say, go to the rabbi, don`t go to the law enforcement.
BEHAR: Why do they do this?
BECK: We`ve dealt with this in the catholic church.
BEHAR: Yeah, that`s right.
BECK: You know, don`t go to the law enforcement.
BEHAR: Oh, this (ph) stuff --
BECK: I think they cover up stuff.
BEHAR: That`s right.
BOTEACH: I think it`s a bit unfair to call this a cover-up. He had never molested a child. No child had come forward and said he did anything.
BEHAR: But now, some woman said that he ...
BOTEACH: So we`re not talking about ...
BEHAR: Wait a minute. Some woman, a neighbor, said that he had tried to kidnap her son at one point.
BECK: Right.
BOTEACH: OK, I don`t know that anyone -- there is no evidence whatsoever that people went to rabbis who covered this up. So to call it a cover-up is to pass judgment on something for which there is absolutely no evidence.
BEHAR: It wasn`t a cover-up.
BOTEACH: What I will say...
BEHAR: It was a question of let`s do it ourselves.
BOTEACH: What I will say absolutely is that I`m not here ...
BEHAR: The same as the church.
BECK: The same as the church.
BOTEACH: What I will say absolutely is that his actions were heinous and abominable. And I don`t believe that the purpose of religion is to say that we can never pass judgment. When Jesus says love your enemies, he`s specific, your enemies, not God`s enemies. Your enemy steals your parking spot. God`s enemy is someone guilty of raping, dismembering small children. And society has to draw a line. That`s why we have a prison system.
BEHAR: Are they going to go to hell, these people? Just tell me they`re going to go to hell, please.
BOTEACH: Well, you know.
BEHAR: Both of you, I`m begging you, tell me.
BOTEACH: The beautiful thing about being Jewish is that we don`t believe in hell. So if you get there, just say, I`m Jewish, you can`t send me there.
BECK: And I say, it`s not up to us, it`s up to God who goes to hell.
BOTEACH: Of course, people like that, are going to go to hell.
BEHAR: A righteous God will send them to hell. We`ll be right back.
BECK: Your righteousness.
BEHAR: Thank you.
BECK: Sister Josephine (ph).
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: One of showbiz`s most powerful couples has called it quits. No, not Siegfried and Roy. J. Lo and Marc Anthony decided to end their seven-year marriage. And here to talk about this and other pop culture stories in the news are Giuliana Rancic, anchor of and managing editor of E!News and the star of Style Network`s "Giuliana and Bill." Dhani Jones, defensive captain of the Cincinnati Bengals and author of "The Sportsman." And comedian extraordinaire Jessica Kirson.
OK, so, Giuliana, is this just the seven-year itch that we`re watching, or what, what do you think ?
GIULIANA RANCIC, ANCHOR AND MANAGING EDITOR, E! NEWS: I don`t think so.
BEHAR: What is it?
RANCIC: I think when there`s a seven-year itch, you`re going to hear about it. The tabloids are going to pick up on it. This came out of nowhere. They say where there`s smoke there`s fire. There was no smoke. There was just fire. You know, this blindsided us.
BEHAR: I don`t believe that. I believe there`s always some other third party involved in divorces.
RANCIC: No. No, no, don`t get me wrong. I think it`s --
(CROSSTALK)
DHANI JONES, DEFENSIVE CAPTAIN, CINCINNATI BENGALS: I heard there was a psychic.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: I heard there was a psychic that predicted everything.
BEHAR: Really?
JONES: No, that predicted their marriage, but I don`t know if they predicted the divorce.
BEHAR: No.
JONES: That`s what I heard.
BEHAR: OK. You heard it. So what about it?
JESSICA KIRSON, COMEDIAN: I think that their kids are just annoying.
RANCIC: What?
KIRSON: I`m joking.
RANCIC: The twins?
KIRSON: No.
JONES: I`m going back to the seven-year itch.
BEHAR: Rumors are that she was with some hunky tele novella star, William Levy (ph). What about that?
RANCIC: He came out and issued a statement. He said I`ve never had a relationship with her, it`s only been professional. But, what I`m saying, though, is that they were just seen together at "Idol" two months ago doing that hot, sexy thing on stage all over each other. They`re doing a new line for Kohl`s together, I mean, they`re doing a lot of things together. I just feel like we would have seen some signs.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: There`s something that happened, she showed up to an event and she came with her mother --
RANCIC: Correct. The BAFTAs. Recently.
JONES: So you knew there was something happening.
RANCIC: Yes, but that was only a week ago.
JONES: There was something brewing.
KIRSON: We don`t ever see the truth of what`s -- let`s be real here. Do we ever see the truth of what`s going on between celebrity couples?
BEHAR: No, never.
KIRSON: I know you`re in a celebrity couple, but you seem very happy.
RANCIC: Thank you.
JONES: Congratulations.
RANCIC: Thank you.
KIRSON: You know, it`s -- no, I`m serious.
RANCIC: Yes.
KIRSON: We don`t ever see the truth about what`s going on. You know, they never put it out there.
BEHAR: Do you think that maybe her "American Idol" gig made her a little hotter --
KIRSON: I thought that, I did. Yes.
(CRSOSTALK)
JONES: What about the fact that one of the two has to shine brighter than the other? You think two major stars could ever come together like that?
BEHAR: She has been considered one of "People" magazine`s most beautiful, and he reads "People" magazine.
(CROSSTALK)
KIRSON: He reads it on the toilet.
BEHAR: I like Marc Anthony, he`s a talented singer, but he`s not in the same category as Jennifer Lopez.
KIRSON: He`s in other places, he`s huge.
BEHAR: Which places? In this country?
KIRSON: I don`t know. Where they speak Spanish.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: They speak Spanish everywhere.
KIRSON: No, come on, you know what I`m talking about -- like France.
RANCIC: She`s been making a huge comeback. You know, she`s suddenly on the set of video shoots again, she`s on stage, there`s hotties everywhere. And I mean, I do think it is a different time in her life.
BEHAR: She`s also worth -- they said a quarter of a billion dollars already.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: Maybe he`s leaving because he wants -- he wants half.
BEHAR: He doesn`t need the money.
(CROSSTALK)
RANCIC: Something obviously happened very, very recently that came out of nowhere, like some sort of an allegation. Something came out in their relationship like --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Have you ever been married, Dhani?
JONES: No, I`ve never been married.
BEHAR: No. Have you ever been --
KIRSON: No.
RANCIC: So listen to me, I`m married.
BEHAR: She`s the only one -- and I`ve been married and divorced.
RANCIC: OK. So you know.
JONES: So what happened?
BEHAR: To my marriage?
JONES: Yes.
BEHAR: It`s a long story. You --
JONES: Maybe it`s the same sort of thing.
BEHAR: I don`t have that kind of time to discuss it.
KIRSON: So what`s your take on it then?
BEHAR: My take is something did happen to precipitate the divorce. It`s not just we grew apart. There`s always a third party or something.
KIRSON: Something`s going come out soon.
BEHAR: Or maybe it`s what I`m going to talk about now. A new study found that women are more likely to send nude photos of themselves and engage in sexting than men. More women than men. Not only that, but we can do it while we`re cleaning the oven. That`s the beauty of it. Now, seriously, that is a fact. We found this out somewhere, I don`t know where. But what about that? Why do women sext more than men? And how come the men are the ones who get caught all the time?
JONES: Can I take this?
BEHAR: Please do.
JONES: I think it`s because I`m sitting in front of the presence of three gorgeous women --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: By the way, Dhani, is this from you?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Go ahead, I`m sorry.
JONES: I think it`s all about women expressing themselves. And I think it`s perfectly fine.
BEHAR: What?
JONES: Even though I did hear that they`re trying to make laws against sexting.
BEHAR: They are?
JONES: They`re trying to make laws against sexting, which I think is ridiculous. People should be able to express themselves to one another, don`t you think?
BEHAR: But you know, some men think that women get turned on when a picture of their shlong appears in the mail. It doesn`t interest us.
KIRSON: Not at all.
(CROSSTALK)
RANCIC: I have to say I am not surprised at all by this study. Women are naughty. You know, they`re naughtier than ever. And I think that we were just suppressing it before.
KIRSON: Yes.
RANCIC: But in the past 10 years --
JONES: It`s about women`s revolution. It`s come to a head now.
RANCIC: More than ever.
BEHAR: No pun intended.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: But the thing is, maybe -- men are more visual. So when a woman wants to attract a man, she`ll send a picture of herself.
RANCIC: Correct.
BEHAR: But men send the same pictures of themselves to a woman. It doesn`t work that way.
RANCIC: No, it doesn`t.
BEHAR: Have you ever done it?
JONES: No.
KIRSON: Are you sure about that?
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: No.
KIRSON: Yes, you are.
JONES: I`ve written words. I think words are a great way to express yourself.
BEHAR: You mean like a poem?
JONES: Yes, a poem.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You ever hear some of that rap music, what they tell them they`re going to do to them? That is not romantic.
RANCIC: No.
BEHAR: I can`t even do it here.
RANCIC: She`s talking about specific --
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: Specific verbiage?
KIRSON: I`m not surprised at all. I really am not. You`re right. The picture -- when someone gets a picture, it does nothing.
BEHAR: It does nothing.
KIRSON: Like those pictures of what`s his name with the head cut off and all the --
BEHAR: Anthony Weiner.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: You guys don`t like a man`s chest, or a leg -- something?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It appeals to other men. Gay men.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Correct. Correct.
BEHAR: That`s who likes that stuff.
RANCIC: A woman`s body is more beautiful.
JONES: I agree.
BEHAR: But why do the men get caught, do you think? They get caught.
JONES: You guys would say that men are stupid, right?
BEHAR: I didn`t say that.
JONES: I mean, that`s what you guys are going to tell me.
BEHAR: They`re delusional in many cases.
(LAUGHTER)
KIRSON: Look at them in a strip club -- she wants me. Oh, she wants me.
RANCIC: You know why they get caught? Joy, because they want to keep it around on their phone to show all their friends for the next five years. We`re smart enough -- we delete it like immediately.
BEHAR: It`s the bragging, it`s the bragging.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: Women brag too all the time. That`s why you guys go to the restroom together to talk about the guy that you`re sitting at the table with. You guys talk about --
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: Brag all the time with one another.
RANCIC: No, we`re saying, get me out of this date.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: No, you guys go to collaborate --
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: -- a way to get together and do something.
RANCIC: No, we don`t.
BEHAR: All right, guys, I`ve got to go.
JONES: Now I`m getting ganged up on.
BEHAR: Thank you so much for this lovely conversation. You can catch the new season of "Giuliana and Bill" Mondays at 8:00 p.m. on the Style network, and go to jessicakirson.com for upcoming tour dates. What are you doing? He`s playing football.
JONES: I wrote a book.
BEHAR: You wrote a book?
JONES: "The Sportsman." I`ve got a new show coming up called "Ton of Cash" on VH-1.
BEHAR: All right, check it out.
(LAUGHTER)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: For those of you who thought "The News of the World" phone hacking scandal wasn`t a big deal, think again. The former editor was arrested. Top British cops have resigned, and now a whistle-blowing reporter has been found dead. Some are calling this Rupert Murdoch`s Watergate. What did he know and when did he know it? Joining me now with the latest on the scandal is Belinda Luscombe, editor at large for "Time" magazine.
Murdoch`s empire is bigger than the Ottoman Empire. Is it possible he himself will be arrested in all of this?
BELINDA LUSCOMBE, TIME MAGAZINE: I don`t think he would be arrested. Because he would have to be super-micromanaging, get his hands really into the dirt, to have instructed people to phone hack, and that`s not his M.O. But I think really bad things will happen to him. Things he may actually hate more than being arrested.
BEHAR: Like what?
LUSCOMBE: Well, I think number one, the succession of his company will be in doubt, which means that James, his son, he may be implicated and forced to resign. So it may be that a non-Murdoch takes over News Corp, which he would hate. I think his reign of intimidation and seduction of the political powers is over. I think the board may press him to get rid of newspapers, which is just a very small part of the News Corp empire, and it`s turning out to be a huge pain in the tail. Their stock price is plummeting just on the sort of tails of this scandal.
And the board are going to say, why are we still investing in newspapers? And Rupert has always been the only guy at News Corp who`s loved newspapers so much. So I think bad things are going to happen. I don`t think arrest is one of them. He would love that. Are you kidding? That guy`s got lawyers on his payroll like you wouldn`t believe.
BEHAR: Right, OK. So what do you know about this former "News of the World" reporter who just turned up dead?
LUSCOMBE: This is an incredibly sad story. So this is the first guy, named Sean Hoare, who had gone on the record to say that Andy Coulson, the former editor of "News of the World" knew about the hacking scandal. To begin with, they thought it was just a couple of journalists, bad apples in the bunch. But this guy always maintained that it went right to the top of the newspaper. And he was the first guy to speak about it and speak about it on the record.
BEHAR: So is it a suspicious death?
LUSCOMBE: Well, the police are saying not. The other thing about this guy is that he had some drug and alcohol problems as well. So he was not -- his life was not heading in the sort of right direction to begin with. So the police are saying it`s not suspicious. On the other hand, nobody trusts the British police anymore anyway.
BEHAR: OK, what about -- before I let you go, what about Jude Law, who is alleging that his phone was hacked while he was in the United States. The FBI is now getting into this one, I think, and they`re also looking into possible hacking into 9/11 victims.
LUSCOMBE: I think the FBI has to watch very closely that they don`t make the same mistakes that Scotland Yard made, which was not to take this thing seriously. People don`t really care so much about hacking celebrities` phones. It seems like the public thinks that comes with the territory. But when you talk about 9/11 victims or you talk about the little girl who was killed and whose phone was hacked, that`s a whole different story. So I think the FBI will be on it. I`m not sure what they`ll find. The American journalists are quite different from the way British journalists work.
BEHAR: So is this the tip of the iceberg? Before we go, yes or no?
LUSCOMBE: I think it`s probably more of the end of the pendulum swing. That`s my idea.
BEHAR: OK. Thanks very much, Belinda. And thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
