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Joy Behar Page
Nancy Grace on the Casey Case; Interview With Jesse Grund
Aired July 19, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, HLN`s Nancy Grace has been following the Casey Anthony saga since day one. And today she joins Joy to break down the next phase of this drama. What`s next for Casey Anthony?
Then, Joy talks with Casey`s ex-boyfriend for a peek inside the mind of the woman still gripping the nation`s attention.
Plus, Michele Bachmann`s husband is under fire for reports that his Christian counseling centers convert gays to heterosexuals via prayer. So can you pray the gay away? Joy examines the controversial idea with a couple who says it works.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Casey Anthony has been a free woman for almost two days now after being acquitted of murdering her daughter. It was just over three years ago that we first learned of little Caylee`s disappearance.
Back then, Nancy Grace was on the case and has not let up since. She joins me to talk about the latest and what lies ahead. Hi, Nancy.
NANCY GRACE, HOST, "NANCY GRACE": Hi Joy. Thanks for having me.
BEHAR: Sure.
Now WFTV, whatever that is -- I really don`t even know where that is, but they have a video of a person they believe to be Casey Anthony running off a plane in Orlando. Is she back?
GRACE: Well, you know, I`ve been thinking that -- I`ve been thinking about that, Joy, and I`ve been studying this video over and over and over. In all the years that I prosecuted whenever you want to find somebody on the lam, go to mommy`s house, ok.
I`m not saying that tot mom`s going to go home to her mother`s house. I think that she has irreparably damaged that relationship obviously, so I don`t think she`s headed there. But I would not be surprised if tot mom is back in Orlando in her own stomping grounds.
On the other hand, I can just imagine after watching all the lies that came out of the defense camp during all of this, I imagine that they could sit back and really enjoy pulling our leg -- putting it over on us when they really need to be focusing on what tot mom can do to not only rehab her image -- I don`t care about her image -- but to rehab her life. What she can do to make good now if anything. Instead of pulling the leg of the press, the media, and her own family.
BEHAR: Well, Baez says that he thinks it`s a former defense lawyer Macaluso, pulling a stunt, just acting goofy.
GRACE: Acting goofy? Ok. If it weren`t in connection with a dead baby --
BEHAR: I know.
GRACE: -- you know, I can understand a stunt. But he is in communication with Macaluso, who is a former member of the defense team. So I assume that Baez would know whether this was a "prank" or not. And if it is a "prank", it just to me adds fuel to the fire that the public is feeling right now about the "not guilty".
To pull a "prank" like this and play with everybody and think it`s a big joke -- it`s not a joke, this is a murder one, death penalty prosecution. She`s gotten a not guilty in opposition to two-thirds of the American public that think she is guilty.
All that aside, there`s a dead baby. Now, why would tot mom be a party to a "prank" when she, according to another defense lawyer of hers, Cheney Mason, says that she`s now just beginning to grieve? What a crock of BS.
BEHAR: Ok.
So now, what kind of life do you think she`s going to live now? I mean she`s going to be hounded, I would think, by -- many people hate her. What`s she going to do?
GRACE: You know, Joy, I thought about that a lot, too. All these threats of vigilante just and how people are going to come after her.
BEHAR: Yes, what about it?
GRACE: I think mostly people feel just disdain. I don`t think very many people feel the urge to go after tot mom. And also Joy, you know, you and I have often disagreed on a lot of subjects, but we both agree on one thing -- we both agree on many things, actually, but we want justice. We want what`s right. Nobody want vigilantism or any tragedy to befall tot mom as a result of public anger.
BEHAR: That`s right.
GRACE: Nobody wants that. And -- I really don`t think that`s going to happen. And the reason I say that, Joy, is because the Orlando sheriff`s department said, you know what, if she had a credible threat against her life, we would be protecting her. But there`s not a threat.
Anything that`s been said has been cooked up by the defense team. And so they were not concerned about any of the threats. So, if they`re not concerned, I`m not concerned.
BEHAR: I was thinking more about being socially shunned. Which I think she will be in many areas --
GRACE: Boo hoo.
BEHAR: Boo hoo is right.
GRACE: Who cares if she`s socially shunned? You know, water seeks its own level, as you well know. Look at Simpson, O.J. Simpson. He found a group of cronies that would hang around with him, party with him. Use his liquor, use his drugs. He had a beautiful model living with him. You know, they all propped him up. He`s the man.
You know what, she`ll find people to hang out with her. Let`s say she isn`t getting invited to dinner up at the White House any time soon. So who cares who she hangs out with? I`m sure she`ll be at some bar dancing on a stripper pole any time now.
BEHAR: You know, O.J., you mentioned him. He tripped himself up pretty good. He`s in jail. Maybe she`ll do that to herself. I mean what do you think are the chances of her doing something again?
GRACE: I think that the chances of her doing something again are pretty good, Joy. I know that defies logic because you think, hey, you came this close to the death penalty and this close to life behind bars, why would you screw it up now?
But I mean, when you don`t know a horse, Joy, look at his track record. What is her track record? Stealing from friends, stealing hundreds -- hundreds of checks to the tunes of thousands of dollars from her own parents, stealing gas, stealing money, stealing things from her family, lying over and over and over. Of course she`s going to trip up again.
I don`t know if she`s ever going to get caught per se by the law, but sure she`s going to trip up. That`s her nature.
BEHAR: Do you think that people in the media will be competing to get an interview with her?
GRACE: You know it, Joy. You know the media a lot better than I do. We both know it well enough to know that somebody is going to pay her for an interview. Somebody`s going to pay her for a made-for-TV movie.
BEHAR: And a book.
GRACE: She`s going to hoodwink one of those 5th Avenue book houses for a book, somebody`s going to pay her. I mean look at Simpson. They actually were going to have him do, as I say, "I Did It"; it`s actually called "If I Did It". And they actually were going forward with that book until there was a public outcry. Sure, somebody will pay her.
BEHAR: Yes. You know, there`s an interesting thing that`s come up. I think today or maybe yesterday. A computer programmer -- you know about this --
GRACE: Yes.
BEHAR: -- his software was used in the trial. He`s come forward now to say that the prosecution used wrong data in their trial versus Casey. He says chloroform was only looked up once, not 84 times rather. I don`t really think that matters. She did it once, what`s the difference if it`s once or 84, right?
GRACE: The way I understand it is this -- all those sites were visited. There were sites about how to make chloroform, whether it -- how it affected you, whether it could be a pleasant experience. How -- about neck breaking, about household items used as murder weapons. Ruptured spleen -- all of those sites were visited. It`s just that one of the sites was not visited 84 times, which was an error, and the state found out about it, and they told the defense. They`re the ones that gave that information to the defense for them to use. So there you have it.
BEHAR: But the prosecution withheld the information, I thought.
GRACE: No. They did not withhold the information. They -- they put the guy up. He testified about one of the sites being visited 84 times.
BEHAR: Yes.
GRACE: They found out that that was wrong. They gave that information to the defense.
BEHAR: I see.
GRACE: And that was clearly outlined in the state`s response to media requests. Now you know the defense is going oh, I can`t believe, blah, blah, blah -- they gave it to them and it`s in the court records.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: What about these people who are planning to sue Casey? Are any of these lawsuits going to bring her back to court? The bounty hunter, Leonard Padilla, and diver who searched for Caylee planned to sue, on top of two lawsuits already filed by Equusearch and a woman named Zenaida Gonzalez. What about those?
GRACE: Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez which sets her a little bit apart from all the Zenaida Gonzalezes, there`s a hyphenated name, and she was the person that visited the Sawgrass Apartments that day and tot mom apparently got her name from there. She targeted that particular Zenaida.
So will she have to come back to court? Well, under the law -- I mean look, you and I show up in jury duty because there`s a little tiny sentence at the bottom of the subpoena that says you could go to jail if you don`t show up for jury duty.
Will she show up? I don`t know. If she doesn`t show up, she`s in contempt. I don`t know if that`s going bother her or not.
BEHAR: Well, we don`t know. All right. Hang in there, Nancy because we`re going to come back with some more with Nancy Grace.
GRACE: I`m ready for you.
BEHAR: Ok.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with HLN`s own Nancy Grace.
Nancy, you know, George and Cindy Anthony`s attorney said that Jose Baez wanted to use them as decoys. I mean, he wouldn`t tell them where she was -- where she was going. Do you think that`s kind of rude?
I mean, after all, they took the hit. He accused George Anthony of molesting the child. Her relationship with -- with Cindy was out there, and it wasn`t very pleasant. And now he`s asking them to be decoys. That`s kind of nervy, don`t you think?
GRACE: You know, Joy, I thought about that a lot when I first heard it. You know, right after the acquittal, that Friday evening, Cindy Anthony tries to see her daughter. And I know for a fact, Joy -- a lot of people don`t know this about you -- you are a mother and a very loving mother.
BEHAR: A grandmother.
GRACE: Yes. And you are very beloved by everybody in your family. There is that -- that deep, deep abiding love. Can you imagine your daughter turning you away and refusing to see her when you are begging her to talk to you?
BEHAR: No. I can`t imagine it.
GRACE: So I can`t either. And you know, every night -- and I know I`m going far afield, Joy -- but every night my little girl, Lucy, sometime between 2:00 and 5:00 a.m. wakes up, comes and get -- crawls out of her crib like an acrobat, and comes and gets in bed with me.
And I just can`t even imagine -- imagine that one day she would say, "Mommy, go away." And I -- I`m thinking about what Cindy Anthony has been through. A lot of people believe that Cindy Anthony put her own life on the line and committed perjury --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: That`s right.
GRACE: To try to save tot mom and that George Anthony sat in that courtroom and took it when tot mom falsely accused him of molesting her, forcing her into oral sex and then, trundling her off to the school bus within the hour as if nothing was wrong.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well, you know --
GRACE: None of that was brought -- was proven at trial, none of it.
BEHAR: Right.
GRACE: And now being used once again. The money that tot mom left the jail with, about $500. A lot of that was what Cindy Anthony and George Anthony had been giving her. She would take their money when they would come visit but she wouldn`t see them.
And they kept coming and they kept giving her money. They kept standing by her. They kept coming to court, possibly committed -- committed perjury -- George held up to ridicule. The jury thinks maybe he had something to do with the murder. And now they -- she won`t even tell them --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
GRACE: -- where she is. And they`re asking where are you, what`s happening. Yet at the very end wants to use them as a media decoy? So if some madman is out there with a gun and takes a shot, oh yes, here`s my mom and dad, have at them. It`s crazy.
BEHAR: I know, it is crazy.
But you know to the point of whether she -- she should talk to her parents and how our children, of course, would speak to us, I`ve had some shrinks on the show who say she is a sociopath. And sociopaths lack empathy. They lack the normal things that people like us have, to -- to have a healthy -- mentally healthy life.
That was the --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Well, that may very well be true. And in fact, that plays right into the state`s theory that as she was killing a baby, her baby, she felt absolutely no empathy. It`s like you`re looking at a toad, and the toad looks back at you but it doesn`t understand how you feel or what you`re thinking.
That`s what they`re getting. When you look at tot mom, she looks back and blinks, but there`s no empathy, there`s no understanding, there`s no human emotion at all.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I take it if you don`t -- I take it you don`t accept the verdict?
GRACE: You know what, I -- I accept that due process was done and the jury rendered a verdict. But I mean, remember that pesky little thing called the Bill of Rights and the First Amendment?
BEHAR: Yes.
GRACE: We have every right in the world to closely examine our justice system when it fails and when it works.
BEHAR: You know --
GRACE: I think it failed this time.
BEHAR: You know, Nancy I have to give you credit because you`ve stayed on the case from the very beginning, and, you know, I even said it on "The View". I mean, this case would not -- not be the cause celebre that if it weren`t for Nancy Grace.
And I feel that you brought it to national attention. And for that, I give you credit.
You know, some people are giving you some flak for your coverage. What -- what do you -- what do you say to that?
GRACE: Oh, Joy. I don`t care what they say. You know, in the TV business, it`s so fickle. You know, you`re the flavor of the month one week, the next week, you know, you`re the worst in the world. Everybody wants to pull off the air.
But you know, it`s that way in every office setting at every job place in the world. There are going to be people that like you and don`t like you. And if we listen to them, you would have never done a stand up one time in your life. You`d be at home, you know, hiding behind the refrigerator somewhere. I`d be at home under the bed if I ever listened to critics.
The day that you change yourself, that you don`t stand up for what you believe in is the day, you know, we might as well just forget about the justice system. If we don`t care enough to care about it to stand up for it, to criticize it, to analyze it and to speak out about it, then we don`t deserve it.
BEHAR: Well, also the minute you give an opinion you make enemies anyway.
GRACE: It`s true.
BEHAR: So it`s irrelevant really.
Ok, let`s talk about the case some more. There`s a new report that shows that Casey`s defense has cost the taxpayer over $100,000. Can they get any of that money back do you think?
GRACE: No. They`re not going to get any of that money back because under the eyes of the law, through the eyes of the law she was acquitted. So really that`s the state`s problem.
BEHAR: Ok. And this -- this really kills me. She wants the state to pay for her appeal of the four counts of lying to the police.
GRACE: I know. I know. I can`t believe it.
BEHAR: The amount of chutzpah that I`m hearing in this part -- parts of this case, the decoy story and now this, it`s just appalling.
GREGORY: You know, I don`t know that I would classify it as chutzpah because I kind of respect people with a little backbone to them. I think maybe guile, deception, pure-out evil may apply, a little more than chutzpah. In this case, I think that she will be declared indigent, the state will have to pay for her appeal.
But I guarantee you they need to put a lien on this thing --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I`d like to know who she --
GRACE: -- when she makes all that money she can pay back for it.
BEHAR: Yes you know, all this start when she flew out of town and then possibly flying back into Orlando, who is paying for all these flights?
GRACE: Well, if it`s all true and it`s not some big game she`s on -- the head game she`s playing with all of us and with her own family, apparently that plane belonged to a former member of the defense team. A Mr. Macaluso.
BEHAR: Macaluso.
GRACE: -- who has a private plane that matches that one. I noticed the tail number was off one digit; one was a six, and one was a zero. So I don`t know the truth about that, but if that is his, he is doing this for some PR stunt.
BEHAR: I see. Ok. I have one more segment with you. I want to ask you about a couple of other cases that are brewing right now.
GRACE: Ok, Joy.
BEHAR: So we`ll have more with Nancy after this break.
GRACE: Thank you.
BEHAR: Ok.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up, a little later on the JOH BEHAR SHOW", Casey Anthony`s ex-fiance Jesse Grund tells Joy what life was really like with Casey.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Nancy Grace.
You know, Nancy, I want to talk to you about this other horrific Brooklyn case quickly. This 8-year-old kid, Liebby Kletzky was abducted and murdered by a stranger although he was in the neighborhood and people knew him, last week. Is it unusual for a child to be abducted by a stranger or is that usually happening with people that the child knows?
GRACE: Well, the stats show out of about 800,000 abductions a year -- 800,000, nearly a million -- only about 50,000 -- closer to 60,000 -- 58,000; only about 60,000 of those are stranger abductions. So a very small percentage are -- when I say stranger, I mean somebody you`ve never met before. I don`t mean the next-door neighbor or your kooky aunt or a parental abduction or the grocery boy. I don`t mean the neighbor; I mean a complete stranger abduction.
It`s only about 60,000 out of nearly a million abductions a year. So this odd.
BEHAR: Wow. You can`t even trust the people you know.
GRACE: No. You can`t and it`s just so heart-wrenching because the little boy had wanted to walk home by himself. They had practiced it. The parents did everything right if they were going to let him do it at all. They did dry runs. They went over and over -- he was going to get to walk halfway home -- I can hardly stand to location at the video --
BEHAR: I can`t look at it either. I mean he was 8 years old. Maybe should not be walking home alone at 8 years old.
GRACE: You know what, when I was growing up, we could get on our bicycles, Joy, and ride and ride and ride. It was a very rural area. And then we would be so far from home, we could only hear -- they would blow the car horn in the distance, and we would come home.
BEHAR: I know, it was different -- I don`t know if it was a different time or what.
GRACE: I think it was both.
BEHAR: Both what? Both a different time --
GRACE: A different time and a different sense of right and wrong and what you can do and not do, and what you can get away with really.
BEHAR: Yes, but I wonder if the statistics show that there were just as many abductions in those days but people couldn`t be --
GRACE: Per capita?
BEHAR: Yes, but we didn`t report it. Or people were not aware of it the way they are today because you know, Oprah and Phil Donahue, those shows really brought this sort of thing to the forefront.
GRACE: I`ve got a feeling -- and I don`t think there`s any way to document it as you are referring to the same thought. Because it wasn`t reported as much, you did not have the media on it the way you do now. I`ve got a feeling that per capita, the numbers may have been the same.
BEHAR: I have a feeling also.
Before we go, Nancy, this case is wrapping up now, and HLN has covered it extensively. What`s the next thing for you?
GRACE: Right now I`ve got my eye on a 4-month-old little girl, Baby Kate, who`s missing. Not only that, I`m very concerned about a case out of Port St. Lucie where a teenager throws a party, invites scores of friends on Facebook to come to a party at his place. Two people didn`t show up -- two people. Only two --
BEHAR: His parents.
GRACE: -- his mom and dad. Yes. They couldn`t make it. They were locked in the bedroom, dead.
BEHAR: I know. It`s very Menendez brothers, that story.
GRACE: Very.
BEHAR: Yes. Ok. Thank you very much, Nancy. Always a pleasure to talk to you.
GRACE: Likewise, Joy, thank you.
BEHAR: Ok. And for the latest on all these stories, watch Nancy Grace every night at 8:00 p.m. on HLN. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: For as much time as we have all spent riveted by the Casey Anthony trial, we really don`t know that much about her. My next guest was engaged to Casey Anthony. At one point Casey even told him that he was Caylee`s biological father. That turned out not to be true. Here with some insight into Casey Anthony and what might be next for her is her former fiance, Jesse Grund. Thanks for being with me, Jesse, good to see you.
JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S FORMER FIANCE: Thank you, Joy, for having me.
BEHAR: Sure. I don`t really know too much about your relationship with her. How long were you together, for example?
GRUND: We were together for a year and a half.
BEHAR: A year and a half, and she told you that Caylee was your daughter, but then a DNA test showed that it wasn`t true. And you decided to stay with her and raise Caylee, is that so?
GRUND: That`s correct. I decided that it didn`t take blood to be a father, and that I was going -- that was going to be my family, and I was going to stay with them.
BEHAR: That was very -- most guys wouldn`t do that, I think. A lot of guys would have said, no -- but so you`re just a good guy, is that it? You`re just a nice guy?
GRUND: I`m just going to say that I was raised correctly. I have great parents who brought me up correctly, in a very godly household. When it comes to Casey and Caylee, I fell in love with Caylee as soon as she was born.
BEHAR: Uh-huh.
GRUND: And Casey and I had a very passionate relationship. I decided I was going to grow up, and that was going to be my family.
BEHAR: I see. What was it about her that attracted you so much?
GRUND: It`s -- it`s hard to look back on the things that attracted me to Casey because I have kind of treated Casey as she stands today as this new -- for lack of a better term, monster. The Casey that I was with doesn`t exist anymore, so --
BEHAR: I guess there was no way for you to know at that time that she would be such a negligent mother at the very least of it, you know. I don`t think that -- how could you know that? And you know, you were sexually attracted to her. I guess that`s the story, right? Why did you break up?
GRUND: She told me that I loved Caylee more than I loved her.
BEHAR: Oh, is that so?
GRUND: Yes, that`s so.
BEHAR: So she always had this insecurity with -- there was some discussion of her relationship with her mother was sort of like that, that the mother like Caylee better than her, and now you liked Caylee better than her. Did she ever go into therapy? Did you ever say to her, you know what, Casey, you need a shrink?
GRUND: I never instructed her to get therapy. Probably hindsight being 20/20, that`s something that I should have pushed for. However, there was a very adversarial relationship between herself and her mother. It was more than just mommy loves my baby more than she loves me.
BEHAR: What did you notice?
GRUND: That there was not a lot of love between those two individuals.
BEHAR: No?
GRUND: There was a lot of arguing. There was a lot of fighting back and forth for who had more command, who had more control of the household. And primarily, who had more control of Caylee, that was a constant fight going on between the two of them.
BEHAR: The mother -- the grandma wanted more control over the child?
GRUND: Absolutely.
BEHAR: Is that, you know, at one point Cindy said she was an unfit mother. So did that play into her wanting to control the situation, do you think?
GRUND: If she considered her unfit mother, why did she continue enabling her to have the behaviors and actions that she was having?
BEHAR: I don`t know. What do you think?
GRUND: I think that that family is, as I`ve described it, a carnival of dysfunctionality, a bunch of broken people who could not provide the proper household to raise Caylee in.
BEHAR: What about the father, George? I mean, did you buy that whole accusation by the defense lawyer that he had molested her when she was a child? Did you believe that? Did she ever mention anything like that?
GRUND: The only thing she ever mentioned in regards to sexual abuse was the two experiences with Lee, which--
BEHAR: The brother.
GRUND: -- I got on the stand and proffered my testimony. Yes, correct. Those are the only things that she ever mentioned in regards to sexual abuse in that household. However --
BEHAR: Tell me again what she said that Lee did to her.
BEHAR: She advised me that on two separate occasions she woke up to Lee watching her as she was sleeping. And on another occasion groping her.
BEHAR: Uh-huh.
GRUND: In her sleep.
BEHAR: Groping her in her sleep. Could it be that she was dreaming? I mean, nobody knows.
GRUND: No one`s really going to know. Lee had a very odd relationship with me. He was very standoffish and very angry with me from the very beginning, even though I was willing to step forward financially and emotionally and be the father to his niece. He didn`t seem to have any interest in being an uncle.
BEHAR: And what about her relationship with her father? What did you observe?
GRUND: George wasn`t around for very long when Casey and I were together. There was a lot of tension between her, himself and Cindy at the time. So he wasn`t around very often.
BEHAR: So it sounds as though this hit you hard that that little girl was -- was killed in some way. How did it -- did it bother you seeing Casey walk out of jail then that day?
GRUND: I never thought that day would come, to be honest with you. I never expected Casey to walk free. And if she did, I expected to be in my 50s before that occurred.
BEHAR: Do you think that she got away with murder?
GRUND: I`ve never, ever said that I believe that Casey murdered Caylee. It`s hard from the standpoint of you have to understand, Joy, this was my little family. And you`re expecting -- people want me to then imagine who was going to be my wife taking what was my little girl and murdering her. It`s very tough for me to reconcile those two things. I understand what the evidence says, and I respect everyone`s opinion in regards to this. But from the standpoint of somebody who was so close and those people meant so much to me, I believe that Casey is ultimately responsible for Caylee not being here anymore. And obviously she violated laws and should be in jail for whatever it is that she did.
BEHAR: So -- well, she`s not. Do you have any idea where she might be right now?
GRUND: She could run all over the place. It`s not going to matter. I`ve had people reach out to me from New Zealand to Aruba to Germany who all know about this case. She`s -- she can`t hide anywhere. I wouldn`t be surprised if she`s still here in Orlando hiding.
BEHAR: What do you think about this idea that there`s some people are promoting a Caylee`s law, which would prevent people from -- which would force people to report to the police immediately that their children are missing? Don`t you think that that would have helped the situation if that was in place here?
GRUND: I`m a big advocate of Caylee`s law. I`ve actually gotten to see a draft of it. I`m for it from an ex-law enforcement perspective. I think it would really help as investigative tool to law enforcement agencies out there, because this can`t happen again. There has to be some consequence to somebody not reporting their child missing. And obviously this bill is in its very early stages, and there`s still more to be done on it, but it needs more people behind it, and it needs more people -- because something positive has to come from this. Caylee is not here anymore. I miss her. And I know others miss her. She`s not with us anymore. She`s with the Lord. But something positive has to come from this whole situation that seems to be all negative.
BEHAR: Well, that might be it. That might be it. You know, let me ask you something -- do you have any clue who the real biological father might be? Did she ever say anything afterwards, after you broke up and said, oh, well, it wasn`t your child anyway, it was so and so`s? Anything like that?
GRUND: No, nothing was ever said to those -- in regards to who Caylee`s biological father was. I`m the only person who could ever call myself dad to her.
BEHAR: So if she called you up now from wherever she is and said, Jesse, I need your help, would you help her?
GRUND: No. I wouldn`t help her.
BEHAR: You would not help her?
GRUND: She`s on her own.
BEHAR: You would not.
GRUND: She`s on her own. Joy, like I told you, the Casey that`s running around today, I don`t know her. I don`t know what she`s capable of. The Casey I knew wouldn`t have been sitting in a courtroom laughing and smiling while her murder trial was going -- that just astounded me every time I saw it. This Casey, I don`t know what she`s capable of. I don`t know who she is. So if she called me asking for help, I would not be her knight in shining armor this time.
BEHAR: It must be very perplexing for you to look back and say, my God, I slept with this girl, I liked this girl. I might have been in love with this girl. And now to see what she`s really like. That`s a tough one, isn`t it, Jesse, for you?
GRUND: It is, Joy, except I had to take a stance as I`ve mentioned before. I grieved the loss of Casey a long time ago because the Casey that I know or I knew, that I loved, that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with, doesn`t exist anymore.
Now if she ever existed to start out with, who knows. I think she did. A lot of people have said, well, she`s -- she was a liar and she was cheating on you the entire time. No one has any idea. There are so many people who claim to be experts in regards to everything that`s gone on here. But nobody knows what she was like. No one knows our little family. No one knows what it was like to just sit on the sofa and watch a movie together, have her make me dinner. No one has any recollection or idea of it like I do.
You know, this has bothered me -- and I`m not trying to sound like a martyr. I would give my life for Caylee to be back here today. But I have to go on, and I have to live. And this case has absolutely ruined me professionally. Good luck me going to get a job when you can Google me and come up with 42,000 results in regards to everything you would ever need to know about me, and some of it is very heinous, very malicious stuff. It`s hurt me personally. It`s hard to have relationships with people -- especially those of the opposite sex -- when your ex-fiancee is, according to E! News, the worst woman of my generation, the most dangerous, the most evil.
BEHAR: You feel like you`re tainted?
GRUND: It really does. And I`ve stopped being judged based on the merits of my character, and I`ve become judged based on my past and things that are my mistakes.
BEHAR: That`s a tough one. Good luck to you, kid. And thanks for talking with me. I appreciate it.
GRUND: Thank you, Joy.
BEHAR: OK. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: The husband of Republican presidential candidate Michele Bachmann has caused quite a controversy with his Christian counseling centers that appear to try to convert gays to heterosexuality through prayer. But can human behavior and attraction be changed? Can you really pray the gay away? Joining us is Stephen Bennett, a self-proclaimed former gay man and founder of Stephen Bennett Ministries along with his wife Irene. Welcome to the show, you guys.
STEPHEN BENNETT, STEPHEN BENNETT MINISTRIES: Thank you.
BEHAR: Now, Steve, you lived as an active gay man for 11 years, right?
S. BENNETT: Yes.
BEHAR: Now, so why did you change?
S. BENNETT: You know, it`s -- trying to make a long story short, I was a gay man until I was 28 years old. And, you know, I grew up in a life where my dad was an alcoholic, very wealthy home in Connecticut, but a father who was just never there for me. He was an inventor and just many crazy inventions and stuff. My mother was basically the one who raised me. And I don`t claim to be the most masculine person in the world, but I learned all my characteristics from my mother. Never learned how to play ball, sports. Was made fun of in school.
BEHAR: Yes.
S. BENNETT: I went to school -- I mean, my mother dressed me with pink dippitydo in my hair, the big 50s glasses --
BEHAR: Why?
S. BENNETT: I was a nerd and a dork, and I look at my pictures back then, I make fun of myself.
BEHAR: I see.
S. BENNETT: But this is, just you know, she was proud of her little son, but again -- I was--
BEHAR: She wanted a girl maybe.
S. BENNETT: Well, she had a girl right after me. But just made fun of and everything --
BEHAR: Did she lay off the dippitydo then?
S. BENNETT: She did. She did.
BEHAR: It sounds like you`re sort of alluding to the fact that you were trained to be gay.
S. BENNETT: Well, no, that had nothing to do with being gay as of that point. But I just -- I never had male bonding relationships with my dad, anything. And then going to school, being picked on. Again, just called all names. And when puberty kicked in, I really started questioning why am I not looking at the girls and I`m looking at the boys. You know, I tried dating. It`s just --
BEHAR: Tried dating women?
S. BENNETT: Tried dating women. And everything -- it just didn`t work. And something I`ve really never shared publicly before, but when I was in sixth grade, I was molested by another boy.
BEHAR: I see.
S. BENNETT: And I was afraid to share that because when I woke up and found this kid on top of me, I should have clocked him one, but instead I was nervous, I was afraid, and for years I carried the guilt. It was my fault because I let it happen.
BEHAR: How old was the boy?
S. BENNETT: Same age. We were both the same age. Again, sixth grade. I have a son who is in sixth grade going next year --
BEHAR: So a boy the same age molested you?
S. BENNETT: Yes, I mean, without getting into graphic details, something happened that shouldn`t happen between two boys.
BEHAR: OK, maybe he was gay, the boy?
S. BENNETT: Well, possibly.
BEHAR: Yes.
S. BENNETT: But in any case, just -- after all of this happened, I ended up going to art school here in New York. Tried covering everything about my homosexuality or the feelings, and got drunk one night and hadn`t -- had a fling with another guy. And then for the next 11 years, dropped out of art school. I figured I`m gay, this is who I must be. Went into a very bad depression. Just hated who I was. Bulimic, alcoholic, cocaine dealer in Connecticut. All of this crap. And I nearly died from a cocaine overdose one night back in `87.
And it -- my life was just so screwed up. I went to a drug rehab, got drugs, alcohol, bulimia taken care of, but I still had this secret which I was gay.
BEHAR: Yes.
S. BENNETT: I was fine. I started -- I fell in love with another man, who was going to be my partner for life. And after over 100 men sexually -- nothing I`m proud of -- during an 11-year period, lost many friends to AIDS and thought I had it myself one time. My partner of many years told me, Steve, you know what, I wish we could just have one fling, maybe once a year, to keep our relationship alive. And I realized from that point, Joy, that I was never going to find happiness after 11 years and all these -- I was a promiscuous gay. After all this, so anyway, I just -- one of my friends who was a Christian shared the gospel with me. And it wasn`t praying away all the stuff --
BEHAR: No. It`s different from that.
S. BENNETT: It is much.
BEHAR: Let me ask Irene something -- you heard this whole story. What made you decide to marry someone who was gay all those years?
IRENE BENNETT, WIFE OF STEPHEN BENNETT: Well, I was actually -- because I`m a Christian, I was praying for a husband at the time. And every night while I prayed, I really had a sense that I should pray for my husband`s health, protection, and for him not to die. But I hadn`t met him yet.
BEHAR: Uh-huh.
I. BENNETT: And many, many nights I prayed for this, and I was waiting for God to, you know, send me the right man and all. And then when Stephen and I became friends, he told me he just came out of the gay lifestyle. He told me he was with many men sexually who were dead from AIDS. And it like just -- the light went on, and I thought, wow, you know what, if you`re to be my husband, maybe now all my prayers make sense, because I was -- he was with people who had AIDS, could have gotten it themselves, and he never got AIDS. So I was praying for his protection, for his health.
BEHAR: So how did you stop being gay then?
S. BENNETT: Well, here`s the thing, Joy. Is that for me, it`s nothing you could just pray away or anything. I never heard before you don`t have to be gay. I always thought I was born gay. I never chose to be gay. It`s not a choice. I didn`t choose to end up down the path. But -- however, I made a choice to come out of that path. For me --
BEHAR: But if it`s not a choice, how can you choose to be out of it?
S. BENNETT: I can make a choice to come out of something. I was a drug addict, alcoholic, all these things--
BEHAR: That`s a little different, isn`t it?
S. BENNETT: Well, listen, for me, it was all these behaviors that were negative. Here`s the key thing, though. I addressed the key issue in my life, which was a broken relationship between me and my father. I want to, if we can, talk about that when we get back. That was the key thing that changed my life.
BEHAR: I don`t have enough time to go through your whole history.
S. BENNETT: Take a minute.
BEHAR: Well, we`re going to continue this in just a minute. Stay there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`re back talking about can you pray the gay away? Can you turn from gay to straight if you want to? And I want to bring in my HLN colleague Dr. Drew Pinsky, host of "Dr. Drew."
Dr. Drew, what do you say to someone like Stephen who believes that you can change your own sexual orientation, with therapy maybe, or dealing with your issues, or praying the gay away, as Mrs. Bachmann`s husband is trying to do with his constituents.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST, "DR. DREW": You`re getting into very complex territory. I mean Stephen is a very specific case you just heard about where he had poly-drug addiction, bulimia, child-on-child sexual abuse, evidence of sexual addictions, and sexual identity issues which were then being acted out. That`s often different than people who have a very consolidated sense of themselves as a homosexual, may or may not have biological elements come into that or environmental issues.
The fact is, the problem with all this is I`m not saying that people shouldn`t have the option to get treatment for whatever they want to try to change their behavior. I`m saying that there`s no evidence that it can be done. There`s evidence that it could be harmful. And by putting it out there consistently that this is an option, you may be shaming and harming people, young people who are having great difficulty and ambivalence about their sexual orientation.
BEHAR: OK. Thanks very much, Dr. Drew.
What do you say to that, Stephen?
I. BENNETT: Well, you know, I have a question for Dr. Drew and for you.
BEHAR: He`s gone.
I. BENNETT: OK, I have a question then for everyone. On one side we have bisexuals, transvestites, transsexuals, they`re taking hormones, they`re chopping off body parts, putting new body parts on, they are going through all this extreme, and yet everybody applauds this and says this is wonderful, this is great, you know, Chaz Bono, everybody interviewed her, no one questioned--
S. BENNETT: I`m a woman, no, I`m a lesbian, I`m a man now, suit, tie, chopped off breasts. Hello?
(CROSSTALK)
I. BENNETT: This is all wonderful, right? But on this side, you have a homosexual man, not you but a homosexual man who decides, hey, you know, I want to try and like women.
S. BENNETT: Like 97 percent of other men in this entire world.
I. BENNETT: Yes, like most men in the world--
S. BENNETT: Twenty years ago, Joy, I`ve been out of this for 20 years.
I. BENNETT: But, wait a minute--
(CROSSTALK)
I. BENNETT: All of a sudden this is bad.
(CROSSTALK)
I. BENNETT: It`s weird, it`s unnatural. It`s not normal.
(CROSSTALK)
I. BENNETT: I think they can`t (ph) do it. Why?
BEHAR: What they say is -- I don`t know about all this other stuff -- but--
I. BENNETT: But why is this like glorified and this is a bad thing?
BEHAR: Because there is a lot of vilifying of homosexuals in this country--
S. BENNETT: Which we are against.
BEHAR: Of course you are. And a lot of people say, oh, they choose to be homosexual.
S. BENNETT: No one chooses to be homosexual. No one chooses.
BEHAR: I`m glad you said that.
S. BENNETT: I would love to come back and talk one time when we have the time. I`d really love to do this. We have nothing against gay people whatsoever, but this is such an important story and again, we`re cut for time here. I`d really love to be able to share the truth about this.
I. BENNETT: And you know, we support --
BEHAR: I think you`ve talked quite a bit about it, and I think that people do understand where you`re coming from, Stephen.
I. BENNETT: Yes. And we support homosexuals--
S. BENNETT: Who choose to change.
I. BENNETT: Who choose to change.
S. BENNETT: People should have the right.
BEHAR: Well, the research is showing that you can`t really do it. Which is why--
S. BENNETT: You forgot to include me in the research, Joy. You`ll never met a former black man, but you met a former homosexual today.
BEHAR: All right. I`m happy that you came here to describe your situation. Thanks very much.
S. BENNETT: Thank you for having us.
I. BENNETT: Thanks, Joy.
BEHAR: And thank you all for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
