Return to Transcripts main page
Joy Behar Page
Secrets of a Polygamous Sect; Caylee`s Law; Interview with Natalie Cole
Aired July 26, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs is on trial charged with sexually assaulting two underage girls. With about 10,000 members in his church, what makes women stay? Joy will talk to two former members to learn about life on the inside.
Then, over a dozen states are considering passing Caylee`s Law which would make it a crime not to report a missing child within 24 hours. We`ll tell you why the law is stirring up controversy.
Plus, Amy Winehouse is laid to rest today. But did enablers play a role in her death?
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Warren Jeffs, leader of the controversial Fundamentalist Church of the Latter Day Saints which has been disavowed by the Mormon Church, claims to have more than 80 wives. But authorities believe some of them are underage and others may have been married against their will. His trial for the sexual assault of minors is underway this week in Texas.
Joining me to talk about this is Elissa Wall, a former member of Warren Jeffs` church and the author of "Stolen Innocence"; and Flora Jessop, a former victim of an FLDS polygamist community and the author of "Church of Lies"; plus, Michael Watkiss, investigative reporter for KTVK in Phoenix.
Ok Mike, tell me about this guy, Warren Jeffs, and his sect.
MICHAEL WATKISS, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, KTVK TV PHOENIX: Warren Jeffs is the absolute leader of about 10,000 men and women who primarily live along the Utah-Arizona border in communities of Hilldale, Utah and Colorado City, Arizona. He`s the man who really dictates every aspect of his followers` lives: whom they marry, where they live, where they work, how many children they have. Indeed many -- in many instances, even how they have the sex acts.
This is a guy who really tells his followers, you know, from morning to sundown and throughout the day what they`re supposed to do. And he continues to enjoy their support and financially, emotionally, they follow him completely.
BEHAR: Uh-huh. We have pictures of this guy with his child brides. What is he charged with, and what does he face exactly?
WATKISS: Well, he`s charged with taking two underage girls as brides while he was a fugitive from the law. In many ways, Joy, I think you got to understand people are acting as if we`re revealing secrets. None of this is secret. This has been going on for generations. These underage marriages are a pillar this community.
There`s a couple of things that make the social architecture work. They marry the underage -- the girls very young without any real education or any meaningful opportunities. And they cast a large percentage of the boys out because just mathematically you can`t have one man with eight wives --
BEHAR: Right.
WATKISS: -- and have an equal number of men and women.
BEHAR: That is right.
WATKISS: The real problem is the abuse of the women and girls and the children in this community.
BEHAR: Ok. Now Elissa, you were raised in the Jeffs sect, right?
ELISSA WALL, FORMER FLDS MEMBER: Yes, I was.
BEHAR: Can you describe the Warren Jeffs that you knew growing up? What was your life like with this guy?
WALL: Warren Jeffs for me growing up, I had a lot of influence in my life from him. I went to a religious school in Salt Lake City, Utah that he happened to run and was the principal of.
So ever since I was little, tiny, I had a lot of influence from him. And he really cultured and shaped my religious views of that society. He really worked hard to develop the women of what they should be like and how submissive and how the perfect women they should be. So he was very influential in how I grew up and the views that I had towards my religion and how obedient we were.
BEHAR: He arranged your marriage to a 19-year-old man when you were just 14, right? What happened then?
WALL: Yes, he did.
BEHAR: Did you have an idea when you were a kid that this is wrong?
WALL: As children, it was absolutely what was expected of us. We grew up believing and knowing that we were to be married and have children and continue the process. And -- because of the closed community and that we didn`t have a lot of influence from the outside world, we didn`t have any other options or any other ideas of what we could be.
So for me at age 14 when I was forced into this marriage, even though I knew that I should be going into this and be very happy that the prophet and the leader, Warren Jeffs, had decided who I was to be married to, I wasn`t happy. And I fought it very, very hard.
BEHAR: Did you not like this 19-year-old guy that they fixed you up with?
WALL: No, not at all. He was my first cousin, and I had known him my whole life. But really there was just a part of my soul and my heart that knew it was wrong. And even as a young child, I knew that I had to stand up for myself, and it was really like a fight for life.
BEHAR: Ok. Let me talk to Flora for a second now. Flora, you came in contact with Warren Jeffs as a child. Tell me about that.
FLORA JESSOP, FORMER FLDS MEMBER: I did. While Elissa lived in Salt Lake and went to the school that Warren Jeffs ran, I lived in the Hilldale, Colorado City area, and my dad used to go to Salt Lake and work in the Jeffs` companies.
The Jeffs compound in Salt Lake was one huge compound with multiple homes in it. And so when as a child we used to run all over that compound, and my contact with him, the one that stands out the most, was as a young child -- my dad started molesting me at age 8.
BEHAR: Your father? Your father?
JESSOP: Yes, my father.
BEHAR: Within the sect -- wait a second. Within a sect, right? Within a sect.
JESSOP: Within the FLDS sect, yes.
BEHAR: And no one stopped him from that?
JESSOP: Of course not. It`s what we were taught that fathers were supposed to train their daughters to become good, submissive wives. And some of the families took that to the point of sexual abuse of their own daughters. Many of the families, in fact.
BEHAR: Your mother went along with it also?
JESSOP: My mother -- you know, I always made excuses for my mother because I felt like, you know, she had all these younger children to protect. You know, so I -- I was -- growing up I made excuses for her.
Since I`ve been out, you know, it`s come to -- I`ve come to realize that mothers` jobs are to protect their children. And that`s one of the reasons why I feel so strongly that in order to break the cycle of abuse in these communities, these mothers must be prosecuted. If these mothers understood that by giving their 11-year-old and 12-year-old daughters to these men to be raped and abused and they would go to jail for that, they may step up and protect their children.
BEHAR: Do you think so?
Mike, do you think that`s true, or would the mothers -- are they also under the power of this Svengali?
WATKISS: Well, you know what, Flora Jessop is one of the great people in this struggle. And Flora and I have been telling these stories and working on this issue for decades together. And Flora got out, and she realized it was wrong.
I think we give these mothers a free pass when we say that they`re not culpable. Flora`s absolutely right. In many ways, they`ve got 12 men on trial here in Texas. That`s a good start. It`s a good message.
But in many ways, the women are the enforcers in this community and unless you start holding them accountable for, as Flora has noted, pimping their daughters out to give themselves brownie points with a man like Warren Jeffs, and brownie points in heaven, you`re never going to break this cycle.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: What do they get for it -- go ahead.
(CROSSTALK)
JESSOP: Joy, they really do get the possibility of heaven. It`s not even the assurance of heaven. It`s just the possibility of heaven.
BEHAR: Uh-huh. That`s what their reward will be if they pimp out their daughter? And they believe this?
JESSOP: Absolutely. Yes. And that`s -- that`s their total reward is just -- it`s not even assurance into heaven. It`s a possibility of heaven. So you know, that just makes it even worse in my eyes that they`re not even assured of anything. It`s just the possibility that something may come of fruition.
BEHAR: Elissa, how did you break free of Warren Jeffs?
WALL: For me that was a choice. I had been married for a long time, for about three years. And the marriage to my first cousin was very -- there was -- there was a lot of abuse. There was sexual abuse, physical abuse. And it really came to a point where it was life or death for me. And there came a point where I just couldn`t take it anymore.
It was a process of being kicked out of the community and just choosing to choose life really to make a stand for myself. When no one else would take that stand for me.
BEHAR: Good for you. What happened to the 19-year-old? Let me -- what happened to the 19-year-old, Flora?
WALL: The 19-year-old, my cousin that I was --
BEHAR: The one that you married. I`m sure he`s not 19 anymore, what happened to him?
WALL: No. He was actually -- he was actually -- he pled guilty to some of the crimes that he was charged with recently this year.
BEHAR: Uh-huh. Flora, you wanted to say something? Go ahead.
JESSO: I just wanted to say Elissa has a huge amount of strength. And I want people to understand what it takes to leave this cult. It -- you know, you`re not only going against everything you`ve been brought up to believe is true and right, you`re going against your entire family. And the character assassinations and the harassment and all of that that is done by the members of your family and community against you.
Elissa went through horrific character assassination and attacks. And lies and untruths. She really had to fight a long, hard battle as everyone that has ever left these communities has had to fight. And she has amazing courage and strength to come out and get on top.
One of the things that we`re battling so hard is the drug and alcohol abuse by former members because they just can`t stand up to the problems and the harassments and the anger and rage that they have coming out of these cults.
BEHAR: Ok, thank you very much, everybody. We`ll have more on this case in just a minute. Stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`re back talking about Warren Jeffs, the leader of the controversial Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints. And still with me is Flora Jessop, a former victim of a polygamist community. Joining me also is Laurie Allen who was also a former victim of a polygamist sect and the producer of "Banking on Heaven," a documentary about the abuse and corruption in America`s polygamist sects. Plus Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author.
Ok, Laurie, we`re talking about young girls being abused by men in these sects. What happens to women who rebel?
LAURIE ALLEN, FORMER VICTIM OF A POLYGAMOUS COMMUNITY: Oh, dear. Women who rebel are just abused to the nth degree. I mean, you`re not -- you`re either committed to a mental institution like Ruth Cook, the epic woman in my film who was rebellious and just -- was they -- they all ganged up on her including her mother and they just had her committed.
Carolyn Jessop, who was also rebellious, was just watched. Like you`re watched like a hawk. It`s a -- it`s a whole espionage system where everybody`s snitching on everybody. And it`s -- it`s horrible. If you don`t do exactly what you`re told, you are just treated like you`re the lowest thing on this earth. It`s very abusive.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It`s like a -- it`s like a fascist state. It sounds like.
Bethany is this --
ALLEN: It is.
BEHAR: Yes, is Jeffs using his religion to act out pedophile fantasies, do you think? Because you know, it`s all about religion, they`re going to go to heaven and all this other stuff -- PS, he`s molesting children. Yes. Go ahead.
(CROSSTALK)
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Oh this is just cult -- no, this is not a religious cult. This is a paradise for sex offenders. Let`s be honest.
BEHAR: Absolutely.
MARSHALL: And he has all the qualities of a sociopath pedophile. He has a parasitic lifestyle in that he gets welfare from the state. He relates to others on the basis of power rather than affection. He shoves his ideas into others just -- others just like a pedophile shoves his sexuality into children.
We think of Phillip Garrido I think as a good mini me of Warren Jeffs because what Garrido did was he -- he kidnapped Jaycee Dugard, but then he recruited another woman with severe character pathology to act as the enforcer.
ALLEN: Absolutely.
MARSHALL: And that`s what we see in these cults and that what`s Flora Jessop was talking about, that her own mother aided and abetted Warren and her father in sexually molesting her. So you have the more personality- disordered women rising to the top in these cults, and then dominating the more vulnerable women.
And so it becomes similar to like David Koresh and the branch Davidians, it`s no longer a religious cult, it`s really a sex cult.
BEHAR: Right, it probably always was in this guy`s minds anyway.
MARSHALL: Yes.
ALLEN: Always was.
BEHAR: Yes.
Ok now Flora, you say you were taught that emotion is evil. Explain to me what that -- what that was.
FLORA JESSOP, FORMER VICTIM OF A POLYGAMOUS COMMUNITY: Absolutely. You have to relate any families where you have multiple women sharing one man, if you have anger, if you have sadness, if you have jealousy, you and you express those, you are committing the -- the most evil of evils in creating chaos in the home. You aren`t keeping sweet and being submissive.
And so in order to stop that you are taught from a young child that emotion is bad, emotion is evil. They train the children -- I grew up watching them waterboard babies in my own home and in many of the other homes --
BEHAR: Oh God.
JESSOP: -- in order to teach them not to cry. They -- and this happens not -- not just the waterboarding but it happens on some extent in the other cults, as well in different varying degrees.
So as a child when you`re taught not to have emotion, you learn to suppress those emotions. And when you do have an emotional outburst or when you do rebel, that makes your punishment twice as bad and twice as devastating.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: So but -- but Bethany, it`s not like you don`t have the emotion, you just can`t express it, it sounds like, or you`ll be waterboarded or tortured in some way, right?
MARSHALL: Absolutely.
(CROSSTALK)
You know what, it`s much more severe than not being able to express it. These women are dissociated. They -- they do not even have access to their emotions. And Joy, you know because you`re a mom, when your little child feels that -- felt that the bogeyman was under the bed or in the closet; that really crippled their ability to feel safe at night. What if the bogeyman is under the bed or the bogeyman is in the closet?
BEHAR: Oh it`s a horror, absolutely.
MARSHALL: And that terrorizes you. And that`s why Ruth Cook had a mental breakdown is because this then predisposes these members to psychiatric issues.
BEHAR: And -- and Laurie in your movie you say that the sect is turning women into zombies. What are -- tell us more about that.
ALLEN: Yes. That`s -- that`s Warren Jeffs` sister that says that, Elaine Jeffs. How they program you from the time you`re very young to not have any emotions. And that`s part of the waterboarding that Flora was talking about because basically they strip you of two fundamental rights. And that is self-determinism and free will.
By the time you`re just a young child, even by the time you`re 9, 10 years old, you`ve been -- all of that has been stripped away. They`re literally building culture of sociopaths and people who don`t even look out for each other. There`s no human emotion left and this is how a woman --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: One other thing -- yes.
But Laurie -- Laurie, one of the things that`s outrageous -- wait a minute -- one of the things that`s outrageous that you said was that he gets assistance from the state? Somebody said that. I mean that --
ALLEN: Yes.
BEHAR: Tell me about that for just a minute. And then I`ll ask Bethany another question. Laurie, do you know about that?
ALLEN: Yes. Attorney General Terry Goddard of Arizona says in my film "Banking on Heaven," 80 percent of the cult is on welfare. Over 4,000 of them are on access to state medical --
BEHAR: Does anybody go there to check -- check out -- check up on them?
ALLEN: They don`t -- this is what we don`t understand, why aren`t they cracking down on this? $20 million to $30 million a year of Arizona taxpayers is going to support this cult and nobody will do anything about it.
BEHAR: Hopefully this will put an end to it.
We`ll be right back with more on this topic after this short break. Stay there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, a debate over Caylee`s Law. Is it a good idea or simply a way for people to express outrage over the Casey Anthony verdict?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`re back talking about the trial of Warren Jeffs.
Now, Flora, your mother and sister are still with the sect. How come they can`t leave, Flora, tell me.
JESSOP: Well, you have to understand that -- for instance, myself, I was one of the first girls that ever got out of the FLDS. And because of that, my sisters were very closely monitored.
My mother, this is all she`s known, and I have not been allowed to speak with my mother in over ten years. This is very common. I get told routinely that my mother is being punished every day because I`m speaking out.
Now you have to understand that when you`re a mother in this culture, you are taught that it`s your job to make your children submissive, that it`s your job to make sure they stay within the group and become submissive, sweet wives. So when you fail in that, the sin is automatically on your shoulders.
But they -- you know, it -- it creates this situation where the women need to understand -- this is partly why I`m pushing that the women need to be prosecuted on some level. Because they have got to as mothers protects the babies or the cycle never gets broken.
BEHAR: But you say they tell you that the mothers are being punished. Why can`t you call police and have them go in and charge these people with assault?
JESSOP: Joy, you have to understand that in these FLDS communities, they own the police department. They are the police department. All members of the police force are members of the FLDS. They are not upholding regular outside law. They are upholding doctrinal faith of the FLDS prophet. They are not -- they will not even serve subpoenas for the courts outside of the community.
BEHAR: You know, Bethany, I wanted to ask you because the women do stay. And it`s obviously brainwashing that goes on. Can you give me a really quick snapshot of what`s happening there in their heads?
MARSHALL: I would say something called shared paranoia. And that is that the cult leader makes them believe, they inculcate a type social phobia; that the outside world is bad, it`s terrifying, and you`ll never survive out there.
That`s what we saw with Jaycee Dugard. She felt that her children would be raped and tortured if she left Phillip Garrido. And then also when we`re little, our parent put into us what we`re going to think about ourselves in the world.
So since these women themselves were little babies, they were put into themselves -- what was put into them was that sexual impropriety was very appropriate. And, you know, we learn our ability to protect ourselves from our own mothers; when our mothers protect us, we can protect ourselves. And then we protect our own children.
None of these girls grew up in an attachment system where they could learn to protect themselves and others.
BEHAR: Does that make sense to you, what she just said, Laurie?
ALLEN: Absolutely.
BEHAR: Both of you?
ALLEN: Yes, that`s exactly what happens.
BEHAR: And how do -- Bethany, again, quickly, how do the victims recover from this? Is it possible to have a full recovery from some kind of experience like this?
MARSHALL: It is possible to have a full recovery. Only have friendships with people who validate your reality, seek education, an active, fertile mind is very therapeutic. Seek out relationships with people who love you. We have incredible neuro-plasticity which means that our brains change and grow in the context of attachment systems where we have positive emotional experiences.
You can get better and you can survive. But find a new community that`s better than the old one.
BEHAR: All right. Thank you very much, ladies.
We`re going to be watching this story because it really is just an incredible thing.
And we`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Because Casey Anthony didn`t call police for 31 days to report Caylee missing, public outrage exploded. Now lawmakers in nearly 24 states are trying to push through Caylee`s Law, legislation that would make it a felony not to report a missing child within a given timeframe, usually 24 or 48 hours. So is Caylee`s Law a no-brainer? Or could it have unintended consequences for parents? Joining me now to debate this issue is Robin Sax, former prosecutor and author of "Predators and Child Molesters," who is in favor of Caylee`s Law. And Sarena Straus, former prosecutor in the domestic violence and sex crimes units of the Bronx district attorney`s office in New York and the author of "Bronx D.A." She thinks Caylee`s Law is a bad idea.
OK, ladies. Now I`m surprised -- I have to tell you -- that this law is not already on the books.
ROBIN SAX, FORMER PROSECUTOR: It`s unbelievable actually. It`s a gaping hole within the system. You`d think that there would have been some sort of law like this. We have every single type of reporting, mandatory reporting for child abuse, suspected sexual assault or anything with children. Why isn`t this here?
BEHAR: I know, why not? Why not?
SARENA STRAUS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: I actually disagree that there`s nothing on the books to cover this.
BEHAR: Oh.
STRAUS: And I don`t think you need to legislate for every single possibility. And Caylee`s Law is really an example, I think, of trying to legislate for a very unusual circumstance in a particular case where somebody couldn`t be convicted based on the evidence. But there are child protection laws that can be used in cases where children aren`t properly taken care of or aren`t reported missing. And I don`t think adding to the books is going to make things better. I think it could make things worse.
BEHAR: Do you think though if this law were on the books that Casey Anthony would have been in jail? She would be in jail now?
SAX: Oh, hands down.
BEHAR: She would be because they would have eventually figured out she violated the law and she`d be in jail instead of walking free, right?
STRAUS: Well, possibly and possibly not. If there wasn`t enough evidence to convict her of the serious crime she was charged of -- and first of all, this law isn`t going to get people who aren`t going come forward anyways to come forward. So it`s not going to encourage more reporting. And in fact I think it could deter reporting in the cases of people who for some legitimate reason haven`t reported, want to, and now they`re going to be afraid to because they`re going to fear there are going to be criminal consequences.
SAX: The prosecution in the Casey Anthony case hands down proved that she did not call and report her child missing. So had that been in front of this jury, a jury that says that they were looking to find her responsible for something, I believe that they would have had ample evidence to convict her on that charge. So the silver lining of that case is holding someone responsible, and I don`t think it`s too much to ask a parent to keep track of where your kid is and to call the authorities if you don`t know where they are. It seems like that`s common sense. It`s ridiculous that we do have to legislate for that. But we do.
BEHAR: It wouldn`t have saved the child`s life, though.
SAX: No, I don`t think it would have at all.
BEHAR: But she would be in jail, though, you agree on that. OK. It would have allowed them to arrest her for questioning. I mean, all of that. But the thing is, why not just have it on the books? Shouldn`t we err on the side of safety? Why not put it there so, you know, just in case? I don`t see the negative.
STRAUS: I`ve advocated my entire professional career for protecting children. And it`s an unusual circumstance where I`m on the opposite side of a debate from a fellow prosecutor. But in this case, you`re legislating for such a particular situation, and this is a reactionary legislation because people are upset that she`s not paying the price. I understand that.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: A vindictive feeling going on. That`s true.
SAX: I understand exactly what Sarena`s saying, in terms of you don`t have to create a law for every situation. More often than not there is a law already in place for us to take advantage of. But in this situation, there is nothing out there. We hold teachers responsible for not reporting child abuse. We hold doctors responsible for not reporting child abuse.
BEHAR: Why not parents? Why not parents?
STRAUS: You can hold a parent responsible, I think, under child endangerment laws. You could hold a parent responsible for not reporting their child missing, and maybe the better way to approach this is to take existing child endangerment laws where there is some kind of flexibility given to the prosecution and to the police to make judgment calls. To not say this is a strict liability crime, where if you don`t report a child missing within 24 hours, regardless of how legitimate your rationale is, you`re going to be held criminally accountable, as opposed to saying you endangered the welfare of this child and that`s why we`re holding you accountable. And there are certain states that make it greater crimes depending on the child`s age. Perfectly legitimate way to handle it. And possibly Casey Anthony could have been prosecuted under child endangerment laws and maybe the prosecution just didn`t think of it. I don`t know.
SAX: A 50-year-old man goes missing and a report is made to the police. That starts the investigation. Hands down, so why wouldn`t we do the same for a 2-year-old? Let`s start that investigation. Everyone knows that the first hours of a missing child are the most important, most valuable --
BEHAR: But wouldn`t most parents just report that? They would just do it.
SAX: They would. So that`s why there`s not really a huge cost because most people would report it. So now you`re making the difference between the Casey Anthonys of the world and not the Casey Anthonys of the world.
BEHAR: Yes, but the Casey Anthonys of the world don`t tell you the child is missing anyway. So it wouldn`t really work, this law, right?
STRAUS: I agree --
BEHAR: Right, Robin?
SAX: Well, it may not have worked in her situation, but at least if you would have had a conviction on that count, then she would be in jail right now.
BEHAR: There`s that, that part, but it really doesn`t solve the problem of reporting a child missing, because if there is a nefarious idea going on, then that person`s not going to report it anyway.
SAX: Well, we could have started that investigation earlier and then we wouldn`t have had--
BEHAR: How? How would it have been started earlier if the child was not reporting missing for 31 days?
SAX: But she could have called and say, my kid`s missing, knowing that it`s a crime, and not said anything else. She would not have been able to be held responsible for that crime, but yet the authorities would have started looking for Caylee 31 days earlier, which may not have saved her life but would have saved tax dollars, huge amounts of resources, in an investigation where Casey Anthony knew exactly where Caylee was.
STRAUS: This is exactly why I disagree with the law because Casey Anthony was not going to report her daughter missing because she thought she was going to be held criminally responsible. In some way that`s a much lesser charge than a homicide. If somebody is trying to hide the fact that a child is missing and they have to weigh between facing some kind of a more minor charge, it`s going to be a more minor charge whatever it is. Whether it`s a misdemeanor or a low-level felony.
BEHAR: They said that the child died in a drowning accident. This is what the defense said. And that they covered it up. She didn`t want to report it. She would have never reported this child missing.
STRAUS: Exactly.
SAX: Right, but that consciousness of guilt would have been something that we could have put aside and the prosecutors would have focused on the charge at hand. That was the problem.
BEHAR: What about a custody situation? Let`s say, you know, they have joint custody of parents. Now the father doesn`t bring the child home from -- three or four hours late, are they supposed to report that? Will he go to jail if he doesn`t--
SAX: They do anyway.
BEHAR: -- bring the child home exactly on time?
SAX: In heated custody debates, I guarantee you the first call when the kid doesn`t make it home on time is to the police and then the lawyer. And they are going to report anyway.
BEHAR: But that -- talk about costing money. And causing sturm and drang. I don`t know if it`s necessary if they just happen to be held up someplace, and now this law is in effect and the person goes to jail. Because he brought the kid home an hour late.
SAX: But text, call, e-mail, we have so many methods of communication. The cost is a phone call right now. I don`t see that as being a huge expense.
STRAUS: This is where this law takes out flexibility that the prosecutors and other law enforcement personnel to say, this is a legitimate explanation for not reporting a child missing versus this is a situation where we`ve endangered somebody, and what about the potential flood or false reports or unnecessary reports, because people say, well, I`m pretty sure that my kid just stayed at their friend`s house late, but I don`t want to go to jail, so I better call the police, and that takes away resources from investigating where the investigations should be happening.
BEHAR: OK. Well, we disagree. Everybody disagrees.
SAX: In one way or another.
BEHAR: In some way or another. I don`t know. I just think maybe they should try it.
SAX: I agree.
BEHAR: You know? Thanks very much, ladies. We`ll be right back.
SAX: Thank you.
STRAUS: Thank you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Multi-platinum recording artist Natalie Cole is in town this week to do a concert at the Beacon Theater with Greg Allman to raise awareness for the treatment of the hepatitis C virus. So please welcome back to the show Natalie Cole. Hi, Natalie. I feel like you`re kind of like a member (ph) of the show already. So you`re going to be at the Beacon tomorrow night with Greg Allman.
NATALIE COLE, SINGER: Yes. This is what they call an unlikely duo.
BEHAR: Yes. Well, you have different styles.
COLE: Totally different, but you know, I started off singing rock.
BEHAR: Yes.
COLE: And, you know, when I was in college and stuff. So I`m like ready. I`m so happy about this.
BEHAR: Well, you`re not known for rock. What`s your style, would you say?
COLE: I would say -- people call basically, you know, jazz singer, pop singer. That kind of thing. Yes.
BEHAR: And Greg is a rock star.
COLE: Absolutely. Hard core.
BEHAR: Yes. Hard core.
COLE: Yes.
BEHAR: So the show is a benefit to raise awareness for hepatitis C?
COLE: To raise awareness, yes, it`s called Tune in to HepC. That`s the campaign. And Greg and I were basically asked to be a part, to be spokespeople, to do a PSA announcement, because we`ve both been through the HepC experience. He had a liver transplant.
BEHAR: I know that. I don`t know too much about HepC, so tell me, how does one get it?
COLE: OK. Initially people thought that you could only get it because you were using -- because you`re a drug user.
BEHAR: Right.
COLE: We now have discussed that you can get it through -- yes, you can get it through drugs. You can also get it through tattoos. You can get it through piercings.
BEHAR: Dirty needles?
COLE: You can get it through blood transfusions. You could step on a rusty nail and get it. I mean, it`s really interesting, and this virus can stay in your body for years, which is extraordinary.
BEHAR: So it`s really the dirty needle that you get it from.
COLE: It`s a tainted -- yes, like a tattoo, that the needle is not sterile. Piercings, same thing, yes.
BEHAR: So how did you get it?
COLE: I got it through drugs -- through drug use. And the stigma is that that`s the only way that you could get it. So people would shy away from -- if they thought that they might have had it, they would never want to, you know, share that with anyone. They would be reluctant to go to the doctor to get treated. People would die, because the stigma was just so heavy.
BEHAR: Yes, in fact, you`ve had a kidney transplant because of --
COLE: I did, yes.
BEHAR: Because of the HepC, right?
COLE: My kidneys were compromised because I already had high blood pressure issue. And that`s another thing. You know, so many people have high blood pressure in this country --
BEHAR: Why is that?
COLE: I don`t know.
BEHAR: Is it the food? Is it obesity?
COLE: Yes, we`re overweight. We are.
BEHAR: We?
COLE: We eat too much. Not you and I, Joy. Never you and I. We`re perfect.
BEHAR: No, I have low blood pressure.
COLE: Oh, that`s beautiful.
BEHAR: I know. But I have high cholesterol.
COLE: But you know, everybody has something. And the bottom line is, that it doesn`t even matter anymore how you get HepC. The fact is, you need to get treated.
BEHAR: Right. Well, let`s talk about drug abuse a little bit, because you know, it`s in the news this week that Amy Winehouse has died. As you know, poor girl. We feel bad about it. She was a great artist, you know, a very, very interesting artist. And there`s a lot of talk about how the music industry contributed to her drug addiction. They don`t know exactly how she died. There are tox reports going out, we will find out in a few weeks, I think, about that. But we`re assuming that it had to be drug related, because she was basically on a binge.
So let`s talk -- you`re in the music industry. How much responsibility does the music industry have to bear in these type of things?
COLE: You know, I think that we all have a responsibility -- we all need to grow up and take responsibility for our health and for our health care. And, you know, the entertainment industry has gotten a bad rap all these years because there is so much free-spirited behavior going around. And I mean, who knows -- you know, maybe we could have saved Amy.
BEHAR: Yes.
COLE: But you know, it`s something that, you know, it`s -- it is what it is. And I think the campaign that we`re working is, at least it`s got a more positive spin in that if you know you have this disease, you can get help.
BEHAR: Right.
COLE: You know, and to not get help is not an option. And I think that even with -- with Amy, she struggled, you know, she was trying to get help. But maybe she was too far gone. We just don`t know.
BEHAR: But what about the songs she had, you know, they tried to get me to go to rehab, but I said no, no, no.
COLE: Very ironic.
BEHAR: Isn`t it? So it sort of makes you think maybe she wasn`t trying to get clean.
COLE: Well, you know, not everybody is going to survive certain diseases. Not everybody`s going to -- you can try. I mean, with Greg Allman, you know, bless his heart, he went through the same treatment I did. But his didn`t work. Which is why he needed a liver transplant.
BEHAR: I see.
COLE: OK. Fortunately, mine did work and my liver recovered 80 percent. So, you know, it`s a -- it`s a fine line between getting help, you know, and holding back. The alternative is you will die.
BEHAR: The thing about the music industry, though, that I`ve been hearing lately because I have no knowledge of -- firsthand information about the music industry -- is that they supply drugs very often.
COLE: Years ago, Joy, that was not a big deal. Managers would give drugs to their artists. It was no big deal.
BEHAR: For what purpose? To keep them awake?
COLE: To make them keep going, make that money. It all comes down to the money. I can tell you that I would not still be here today -- obviously by God`s grace -- but also because of the support of people that cared about me. Without that, I think that you have a rough road. A really rough road.
BEHAR: What was the turning point for you, Natalie?
COLE: Probably almost losing my son.
BEHAR: How did that happen?
COLE: Ironically, I was approached by not my family, although they had -- I didn`t listen to my family. But I was approached by business people, my attorney, my manager and my accountant. And they said to me, we can`t represent you anymore if you don`t get well.
BEHAR: Oh, I see.
COLE: We just can`t. And so I went off to rehab, and I was very close to losing my son because of the negligence, you know.
BEHAR: How old was he?
COLE: Robbie was probably about 5.
BEHAR: I see.
COLE: Yes.
BEHAR: There was no husband in the picture at the time?
COLE: My husband and I had divorced. And he was going to take Robbie from me.
BEHAR: I see.
COLE: You know? And that -- that kind of jolted me. But that was my second time in rehab. You know, the first time it didn`t take either.
BEHAR: I guess it`s like any other addiction. It takes a couple of tries --
COLE: I`m telling you, it really does.
BEHAR: People should not give up so easily.
COLE: It really does. You know, but we just have to -- you know, we can only -- sometimes I think we can only take one thing at a time. You know, and right now for some reason HepC is a very widespread virus.
BEHAR: Is it?
COLE: 3.5 million people are walking around knowing they have it and have not been treated.
BEHAR: It`s not contagious in any way, is it?
COLE: HepB is contagious. You can get that through sexual transmission. HepC is the different methods I told you.
BEHAR: Needles. Do you have other ailments because of hepatitis C? Or because of the drug abuse?
COLE: There`s not -- the symptoms are very lightweights. You could just be tired.
BEHAR: Like what? Tired?
COLE: Fatigue. Not necessarily anything extreme.
BEHAR: So how would you know you have it?
COLE: You don`t. Which is why we want people to get tested. You know, because when you go for a checkup, your doctor doesn`t test you for - - to see if you have anything wrong with your liver.
BEHAR: No. I don`t go near needles.
COLE: Well, I mean --
BEHAR: I don`t even sew.
(LAUGHTER)
COLE: Joy.
BEHAR: We`ll be right back. We`ll have more with Natalie Cole in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with legendary recording artist Natalie Cole. How does that feel when I say that?
COLE: It`s so nice.
BEHAR: Isn`t that nice?
COLE: You know, I just want to add, though, Joy, about what we`ve been talking about with the HepC, that the campaign is called Tune Into HepC. And that my story, Greg`s story is on the Web site, which will give you so much information on different options, where you can go for treatment, da-da-da. TuneIntoHepC.com.
BEHAR: So if you have some kind of an idea that you might have been infected, you should definitely be tested.
COLE: Absolutely. To do nothing is not an option. I mean, you`re -- at that point, it`s like once you find out, once you know, do it.
BEHAR: Yes. Now, the other thing. You`re having fun anyway, you are having so much fun. You were just with "The Housewives of New York."
COLE: I was.
BEHAR: I hear that you were singing with the Countess De Lesseps.
COLE: I was.
BEHAR: Can she -- can she sing?
COLE: We`ve become dear friends.
BEHAR: Can the countess sing?
(LAUGHTER)
COLE: You know what, Luann has a very interesting way of performing.
BEHAR: Does she?
COLE: She kind of talk sings.
BEHAR: She talks. Oh, so like Rex Harrison?
COLE: Well, yes. Why can`t a woman be more like a man?
BEHAR: Exactly. Exactly.
And you also have a duet album with Tony Bennett coming out, I hear?
COLE: Very nice. Tony is one of the most perfect people to work with.
BEHAR: Isn`t he interesting in his career?
COLE: Very cool guy.
BEHAR: Because his son resuscitated him -- I shouldn`t say it like that. His career, I meant.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: He was not in a coma. But he was -- he was always a great star all of his career, with Sinatra in the same category. But then he kind of like, you know, lost, I guess, interest. Younger people came in.
COLE: Sure.
BEHAR: And then his son basically managed him, and MTV had him right there.
COLE: Well, yes, they started pairing Tony with a lot of the young artists, which was very cool.
BEHAR: K.D. Lang.
COLE: K.D. Lang and Michael Buble.
BEHAR: Do you like doing -- I love Michael Buble, don`t you?
COLE: Yeah, yeah.
BEHAR: Do you do duets a lot? Well, you did one with your father, even though he was not even -- he passed away.
COLE: And no one can surpass that.
BEHAR: No one.
COLE: You know, I mean--
BEHAR: Nat King Cole, the great.
COLE: Thank you.
BEHAR: He was the best.
COLE: Thank you.
BEHAR: I used to love him when I was a kid watching him. Great.
COLE: He was the best. And Tony is close second.
BEHAR: Do you think that that music will be, like 100 years from now, will we still be listening to Tony Bennett, Nat King Cole, Natalie Cole?
COLE: I think it will still be around.
BEHAR: Frank Sinatra?
COLE: I certainly hope so.
BEHAR: Dinah Washington, Sarah Vaughn, Ella Fitzgerald, Mel Torme.
COLE: You better believe it.
BEHAR: The greatest.
COLE: There`s nobody -- nobody like them. I mean, you know this.
BEHAR: I know.
OK, thanks very much, Natalie. And thank you for being with me. And good luck with this campaign that you`re doing. And if you`re in New York City, check around at the Beacon Theater tomorrow night with Greg Allman.
Before we go, don`t forget, CNN and HLN are the very first news networks in the United States to stream 24 hour news online and on mobile. Which means even if you`re not sitting in front of a TV, you can watch live, including breaking news. Check out CNN.com/video to find out how. Thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
