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Joy Behar Page
The Mind of a Mass Killer; Secrets of a Polygamous Sect
Aired July 27, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, shocking new details emerge about the madman responsible for the Norway attacks, including plans he had for a second massacre. Joy talks with forensic psychiatrist Michael Welner about what could have driven someone to commit such atrocities.
Then the latest on the Warren Jeffs underage polygamy trial. Jeffs` lawyer says his client`s right to practice religion as he sees fit is in jeopardy. But will the jury buy it?
Plus Congressman David Wu says he will resign over an inappropriate sexual with a teen. We`ll hear what Ann Coulter has to say about the latest scandal to hit Washington.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: Last Friday, Anders Breivik blew up a car bomb in Oslo, Norway, killing eight, and went on to a youth camp where he slaughtered as many as 68. Now as the Norwegians mourn the victims, authorities are learning more about the man who admitted to committing the deadly attacks including reports that he was planning another, quote, "bonus" massacre.
Joining me now from Norway is Nic Robertson, CNN senior international correspondent. Nic, has Breivik explained anything about this, why he felt compelled to do this -- any explanation at all?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: What is being attributed to him is a 1,500-page diatribe if you will that he posted on the Internet just hours before he went out to set out on the attacks. In that he details his rationale. And his rationale he lays out this -- that he was afraid of the Islamification of Europe. That he blamed what he called Marxist European governments for being responsible, and the way to deal with it he believes is through a Christian crusade if you will as happened in the Middle Ages.
So that`s his rationale. And the reason that he attacked the Labor Party and the ruling Labor Party`s summer camp here is because that`s the government here, and he holds them responsible for essentially this multi- culturalism that he believes will lead to Muslims dominating this country, dominating Europe. That was the way that he`s laid it out.
BEHAR: I see. Now his manifesto includes these photos of himself. In the manifesto there was talk of a planned bonus massacre. What do you know about the bonus massacre?
ROBERTSON: It could mean -- he could have meant by that that he thought perhaps when he went to this island he might have been able to shoot a government minister or a former government minister. His timing was wrong. There wasn`t anyone there like that that he could shoot. But perhaps, perhaps that`s what he was talking about there, Joy.
BEHAR: Ok. No, his -- he admitted to doing all of this, yet he`s pleaded not guilty. What do you make of that?
ROBERTSON: Again, in these 1,500-page online posting, he explains himself. And his lawyer has said the same thing, too, after talking to him. His lawyer says that he says, "I know people are going to hate me for this. I know my family`s going to hate me, my friends are going to hate me, but this is necessary. Something that has to happen."
It`s part of what he believes is the beginning of a war. So his rationale here is that he had to do it. That this was necessary and therefore, not wrong and not illegal. And therefore he`s not guilty. Yes, he says he did it, but it was the right thing to do, that`s his warped logic.
BEHAR: I see. Ok, thanks, Nic, very much for the update.
Ok. So what makes a person commit mass murder and shoot defenseless kids at a youth camp? Here with me now is one of the nation`s top forensic psychiatrists, Dr. Michael Welner, the chairman of the Forensic Panel and associate professor of psychiatry at the NYU School of Medicine. Dr. Welner, welcome back to the show.
Now, you know, this is interesting. Breivik`s lawyer said that he told him that, quote, "his actions were necessary", as we just heard, and that he looks upon himself as a warrior. Respond to that. What does that tell you about this guy?
DR. MICHAEL WELNER, CHAIRMAN, THE FORENSIC PANEL: The warrior persona.
BEHAR: Yes.
WELNER: The mass shooter who targets strangers is a person who`s trying to carry out a shock crime. That`s why this person with what he claims to have an anti-Muslim ideology, he didn`t target Muslims, he targeted children. Because by killing scores of children, he would shock the sensibilities of the country. And the reason an individual like this carries out a spectacle shock crime is so we`ll talk about him and they`ll talk about him in Norway, and he will become larger than life.
And the person of those photographs. He wasn`t in the military and yet he`s in regalia. He wasn`t handsome, he had plastic surgery. It`s the idea of carrying out a shock crime so people will ask: who is this person?
And then writing the persona in a manifesto and then giving an image to a persona so that he becomes larger than life, he gets immortality, and he becomes someone that he never could possibly have been in his quiet and meek and otherwise undistinguished and unremarkable self.
BEHAR: So it has nothing to do with Muslims?
WELNER: It`s a crime that`s carried out for celebrity. But the person grafts some ideology that many may have in order to legitimatize himself and to say righteous indignation. "I`m doing this for a righteous purpose," because otherwise murder is unacceptable to him. But if he gives himself some sort of a cause, then he can rationalize it to himself and elevate himself as some heroic figure.
It`s a common thread. You can just substitute the ideology.
BEHAR: Interesting. He also -- you mentioned that he had plastic surgery. He was kind of like a nerd or something. He never was popular. He couldn`t get a girl. In a certain way it`s almost personal.
WELNER: Well --
BEHAR: Isn`t it?
WELNER: I`ve examined four people who have survived rampage killings. One guy targeted white folks. One guy targeted ethnics. One person targeted his workplace. Another person targeted homosexuals. Do you know what the common denominator was? They couldn`t get laid.
BEHAR: Right. That`s right.
WELNER: Right? They`re sexually incompetent. The point being someone who`s aware of his sexual incompetence and his otherwise personal incompetence takes that passion, latches on to the ideals we have, we develop of fame, of destruction, whether it be Rambo all the way up to the current day and says that`s how you become masculine. That`s how you become larger than life.
They adopt it for themselves, but they carry it out in such a way where, again, they become the person of the moment. And they draw inspiration from the last person. So there`s Klebold and Harris who wanted to outdo everyone else, and then there was Cho Sun Wei (ph) and he was mailing off pictures to NBC of a person holding a gun that didn`t look anything like anyone would remember him.
BEHAR: Yes.
WELNER: And now this is the next generation, a person who works for nine years, nine years on a manifesto is so systematic that in that manifesto he describes how you stack your steroid use in order to build muscle to carry body armor when you carry out such an attack. So there`s an escalation that builds on the inspiration of previous spectacle murders so that the spectacle is me, is me.
BEHAR: Yes. Do you see a connection to him and Timothy McVeigh? Is there a similarity there?
WELNER: Two white guys.
BEHAR: Two white guys.
WELNER: That`s really what it is.
BEHAR: Also with the idea that they`re going to get the government. They`re after the government. That`s the pretext.
WELNER: Well, the government is a symbolic, monolithic entity. It`s just like what would be the reason why al Qaeda would target the Twin Towers? Because of its symbolic value.
BEHAR: Right.
WELNER: Why would Jared Loughner kill this -- try to kill the congresswoman? Because she`s an elected official. Because she`s a symbol of leadership. So the idea of targeting a symbol, targeting something that is so precious, it -- it puts you in the public consciousness.
It`s one thing to kill 85 people. It`s another thing to kill 85 children. It strikes at the heart of society, and it makes you someone who`s relevant to everyone. That`s what he`s after.
He doesn`t care about the children. They`re meaningless to him. They`re like figures in the video games that he practiced in order to make it easier for him to kill people as if they were bugs.
BEHAR: Uh-huh. I was thinking of also the guy who killed John Lennon; that he was after the same kind of notoriety and aggrandizement and all of that. They don`t have capital punishment in Norway so he might serve a short sentence there and go out again. Does that annoy you? That annoys me.
WELNER: I think, you know, that`s a separate discussion. But a lot of people are going to ask, gee, are they going to treat him as a crazy person. They won`t because he won`t allow it. He won`t allow it because it would delegitimize his defense.
BEHAR: The picture of him, he`s smirking. Did you see the picture of him in the car? He`s got a smirk on him.
WELNER: The idea of his admitting responsibility is a mischaracterization. He claims responsibility. He relishes. Now what he also claims is that other people may be involved. And that`s puffery. He is attempting to make himself larger than who he is, and he does so through the scope of his destruction.
BEHAR: Now you were saying before, you think that this is a preventable crime.
WELNER: Absolutely.
BEHAR: So you don`t think this could -- you can actually stop somebody from doing something like this with his craziness?
WELNER: You have to take the incentive out of it.
BEHAR: How do you do that?
WELNER: Again, it`s not craziness.
BEHAR: Well --
WELNER: How do we cover them? How do we cover them? Why did we cover Cho Sun Wei? Why should we care about him? Nobody cared about him before he killed anyone, why should we care about him now?
And yet you have to cover an incident when many people die.
BEHAR: Right.
WELNER: Focus on the pain of the victims. Focus on the heroism of people who tried to make a difference.
BEHAR: I see.
WELNER: Incentivize a guy flying a helicopter. Don`t just fly a helicopter and look at someone shooting. Fly a helicopter into someone to save children`s lives. Give an example to the general public. Why?
BEHAR: Yes.
WELNER: Because if you take the incentive of creating a star out of mass spectacle murder, then the person who`s watching our show and the news shows, they`re not going to see the picture of a guy in military regalia. They`ll be hearing about us talking about a sexual incompetent --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
WELNER: -- a weirdo, and a deviant, and they`ll say I wouldn`t want to be remembered that way, and they won`t do it.
BEHAR: I hear what you`re saying. It`s a tough one for the media because the media gets ratings by talking about the deviant.
WELNER: You know what? They covered Princess Diana`s pain. They didn`t cover the chauffeur. Now if you can cover Princess Diana`s pain --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: But she`s the bigger star that`s why?
WELNER: The star of the Norwegian people. We just haven`t discovered --
BEHAR: Make them -- make them star the victims. It`s very interesting.
WELNER: And the heroes.
BEHAR: Thank you.
WELNER: The people who save lives, not the people who take them.
BEHAR: Ok thanks very much Dr. Welner. And we`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`ve been following the trial in Texas of Warren Jeffs, the leader of the controversial Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints. He`s charged with the sexual assault of two minors. So now the jurors have been selected and over 70 of Jeffs` wives have been subpoenaed.
What`s next in the trial of the man whose followers call "the prophet"?
Joining me to talk about it is Michael Watkiss, investigative reporter for Phoenix affiliate KTVK, who is at the trial right now; plus, Rachel Bernstein, psychoanalyst and cult expert.
Ok Michael, yesterday we talked about how Warren Jeffs is the absolute leader of about 10,000 people. He believes in plural marriage and sex with underage brides. Now we hear over 70 of his wives have been subpoenaed.
What do they think they`ll get out of that? Aren`t they under his spell, these women? Are they going to say anything they can use?
MICHAEL WATKISS, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER KTVK: Well, if they can find any of these women and that`s very doubtful. Law officers are actively looking and out at his compound, several miles from where we are right now, they have taped the subpoenas for these women using duct tape, taped them to the front gate because clearly law officers have been unable find them thus far.
This is a community that has honed secrecy to an art form. And sources inside the community and sources that I have, have told me that Warren Jeffs has told his -- the people that may be subpoenaed for this trial to scatter. And they have compounds in South Dakota, in Colorado, in Nevada, in Utah and Arizona.
So if these people don`t want to be found and clearly they don`t and I don`t think Mr. Jeffs wants them to be found, it`s very doubtful that law officers are going to be able to haul them into court.
BEHAR: Uh-huh. Very good. Very interesting.
But what do you know about these claims that he continues to run his sect from behind the bars? I guess he`s been behind bars. He`s probably telling them scatter and et cetera, right?
WATKISS: Well, exactly.
And Mr. Jeffs you`ve got to understand has now been incarcerated for more than five years when -- since he was busted by a cop in just outside of Las Vegas back in the summer of 2006.
So he`s been in jail for a very long time. And he has continued to have a constant flow of his followers. His most trusted lieutenants, his wives, going in and visiting him when he was locked up in Kingman, Arizona, when he was locked up in Utah, when he was locked up in Nevada and he`s got -- he`s charged up thousands of dollars in phone cards.
So people who think that Warren Jeffs is still not in control of the FLDS community have no understanding of the FLDS community. Mr. Jeffs is very much the prophet, and behind bars he continues to exert absolute control over his faithful and will do until the day he dies.
BEHAR: Right.
Now Rachel, Jeffs` attorney said, quote, "My client`s right to practice religion as he sees fit is in jeopardy." That is a really -- that`s a good one.
How do -- how do you reconcile the idea of religious freedom which seems to be his defense with his actions?
RACHEL BERNSTEIN, CULT EXPERT: What`s so interesting to me about this is the irony here that his religious freedom gives him the freedom to take away other people`s freedom.
BEHAR: Yes.
BERNSTEIN: And so I think that you should no longer be in charge of something where you can sabotage other people`s right. And so I`m not quite sure how that`s going to fly in court.
ROMANS: Really, it`s -- it`s so hypocritical, it`s beyond the pale.
BERNSTEIN: Right.
BEHAR: Mike, you claim that young women in Jeffs` sector told their only value is to be a righteous quote, "Mother of Zion." Explain what that is.
WATKISS: Well, that basically means that they`re -- they`re followers of the prophet. And -- and from the moment of their birth, these young women are told that they will be married into the spiritual marriages when the prophet tells them. And you`ve got to understand, Joy, nobody goes out and gets married because they love someone or because they`re attracted to someone or they want to be with someone.
No marriage is performed in that community until Warren Jeffs says "You`re marrying this man." This is a currency of women. Basically it is an economy of women. Faithful men are rewarded when they grovel and they`re toadies toward Jeffs, they`re rewarded by more and more wives.
If you -- if you buck the system, you get your families taken away from you. I`ve covered several men who have had their families taken away. They`re said to go repent from afar, continue to send money in. A man -- a man who fell into that category --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Wow.
WATKISS: -- recently walked in front of a train. Another young man that we covered, a young man named David Darger had his wife and nine kids taken away. He drove after he realized he was not going to be allowed back in his community, the family had been given to another man. He was basically a dead person to his children. He was so heartbroken he drove his car off a towering cliff in southern Utah.
So the -- the charges --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
WATKISS: -- that Mr. Jeffs faces --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Right.
WATKISS: -- in this court are minimal. His wrongdoing is just -- it`s a mountain of malfeasance.
BEHAR: Yes. Rachel, go ahead. Do you want to speak? Go ahead.
BERNSTEIN: Yes, I was going to say that I think in terms of his wrongdoing, when you take away people`s right to protect themselves, their ability to question, their ability to stand up for themselves in any way, their ability to think from an early age when you`re punishing babies for crying, when you`re hitting them for crying, it is something that you learn at a young age that you are -- you need to be in fear of this leader. And you need to see him as the only leader and the only one who speaks for God.
And the problem in a situation like that, whenever you have a cult- like situation, that is, you have someone who has no governing body watching over him. There is no system of checks and balances. There`s no safety net for the followers in that group.
So he can say or do whatever he wants, and he can give out whatever punishments he wants. And he can speak for God in any way he wants. And he`s calling that his religion. I think we need to redefine what religion is according to him and according to us.
BEHAR: Ok. I think he needs to be stopped.
BERNSTEIN: Yes.
BEHAR: Stay right there. We`ll continue this in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`re back talking about the sex trial of Warren Jeffs, the leader of the controversial Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints, which the Mormon Church has denounced, by the way. They`re -- it`s not connected to the Mormon Church. I want to make that clear to people.
Ok. Now, Rachel, when he first came to power, this guy, after his father died, Jeffs banned other male members from pursuing his father`s wives, who were his stepmothers, right? He kept them all for himself. Is that some kind of an homage to his father, or was he just horny, this guy?
BERNSTEIN: Well, it could be a combination of both. But I think to add to the list of things that he is that he shouldn`t be, he feels that his dominion over people, over women specifically and also of the male followers of his.
So I think it was his way of stepping into his father`s shoes. And then to a certain degree standing on his shoes. Claiming that he then had more power over those people than anyone else could and he had the right to these people. So I think it was his way of really becoming his father and then some.
He`s a different kind of character than his father was. And he has a certain narcissistic need to be in charge of everything. And he doesn`t care how it looks, certainly. And he doesn`t care if it`s right or if it`s wrong. It`s what he wants and his ego propels him to get it.
BEHAR: Is this the definition of a megalomaniac would you say?
BERNSTEIN: Absolutely, yes. Absolutely.
BEHAR: It`s --
BERNSTEIN: Yes, it`s beyond --
BEHAR: Go ahead.
BERNSTEIN: Yes, it`s beyond also because he adds God into the mix. So that then you can`t argue with him at all because if you`re arguing with him then you`re --
(CROSSTALK)
BERNSTEIN: Right. Yes. It is.
BEHAR: One of the most sadistic things I`ve heard is the waterboarding of babies to suppress emotion. Have you ever heard of such a thing, Rachel?
BERNSTEIN: I haven`t heard about the waterboarding, although it`s possible. And unfortunately I need to just put it out there that it`s possible. Anything is possible when you don`t have someone watching over what`s happening. And you don`t have anyone telling the person in charge, who is a megalomaniac, no, this is wrong.
And so when he feels he has the ultimate right to do whatever he wants, he can come down with any kind of punishment he sees fit. And it shows if that is the case, and I`ve heard about him telling the parents to hit their children if they`re crying, even newborns, that --
BEHAR: God.
BERNSTEIN: That if he does this, it shows that he knows nothing about children. He knows nothing about raising families. But also it teaches people right away that they have no rights, and they have no voice.
BEHAR: Right.
BERNSTEIN: And so they have to live in fear of him. And the awful thing that keeps people trapped is that not only to they live in fear of him and of disappointing him, and of doing the wrong thing by him, but they also are growing up to live in fear of the world outside.
So they`re really stuck. They`re really, really -- in terms of their ability to know how to look at things and be in the world, they really are handicapped.
BEHAR: Powerless. They`re powerless.
BERNSTEIN: Yes.
BEHAR: Mike is this sadistic behavior going to be brought into this trial, I hope?
WATKISS: Well, I can tell -- I don`t know. I don`t think it`s going to be introduced in this trial because it`s not part of the charges. But corporal punishment is definitely part of this culture.
Joy, I`ve spent 30 years covering this. I have polygamist ancestors. And I can tell you that my experience is with these fundamentalist religions, it`s always the -- the men argue about their religious rights, but their religious rights always come at the expense of the women and children`s human rights.
BEHAR: I hope he gets what`s coming to him, and we`re watching this. I`m into this trial. This guy`s really an animal, which is an insult to animals in my opinion. Ok.
Thanks very much. We`ll be back after a short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Playboy model Crystal Harris left Hugh Hefner at the altar. Now she`s throwing him under the bus. She told Howard Stern that she isn`t turned on by Hef, that Andy Rooney makes her all hot and bothered. Here with me to talk about this revelation and much more are Davy Jones, a member of the iconic `60s band the Monkees; Sarah Bernard, host of "The Thread" on Yahoo!; and Scott Adsit from "30 Rock."
She`s not really hot and bothered by him -- by what-his-name, Andy Rooney. I am, though.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: OK. So she said that the sex that she had with Hef lasted only two seconds. Sarah, two is too long anyway.
SARAH BERNARD, HOST, YAHOO!`S "THE THREAD": I know. I mean, who wants those two seconds? I don`t know. I think the craziest thing about this is that it is so high school, right? She has this boyfriend, she doesn`t like him. She`s telling everyone. And then he`s telling everyone on Twitter that actually, you know, he feels sorry for her because she`s lost, and he`s much happier with his two new girlfriends.
I mean, I also thought that you weren`t allowed to cross Hef, right, if you were a Playboy playmate. He`s like the godfather of the bunnies.
BEHAR: Yes, but he likes her. He gave her a $90,000 engagement ring and a Bentley. And now she`s bitching about him. Ungrateful, David?
DAVY JONES, SINGER, THE MONKEES: You know, my wife is half my age. She`s in her 30s, I`m in my 60s, you know. I remember on our honeymoon, I went out there and we had the camera, of course, and I said, do you want to take a picture? She said, yes, but come away from that window, they`ll think we got married for your money. You know what I mean?
I said, OK. That was -- and also, the thing would be when I took my clothes off, she said to me, I don`t know what you`re wearing, but it needs ironing.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: So I can`t understand what this is all about with Hef.
BERNARD: That`s the other part. Apparently he doesn`t take off his clothes.
BEHAR: He`s in the pajamas.
JONES: But it`s a great thing, sometimes, leaving clothes on when you`re having sex. I don`t know about you, but I`ve tried it.
BEHAR: Scott, she`s attracted to his wallet. Come on, let`s tell the truth here. These girls don`t want to have sex with him, he`s old.
SCOTT ADSIT, ACTOR & WRITER: The sex was contracted to be two minutes long probably.
(LAUGHTER)
ADSIT: But the thing is that Hef has to maintain this image that he has had since the 50s. And that`s he`s not what he used to be, you know. And to expect him to go longer than two minutes or do anything at all is amazing.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: It`s not about the actual -- it`s not always the penetration, you know. There`s something leading up to that. And things that happen before, you know, that gets you aroused. And it doesn`t -- you know, maybe, you know, with partners, people, you know, not necessarily rely on gadgets or whatever it might be.
BEHAR: Hey, hey, it`s The Monkees.
(LAUGHTER)
JONES: But sometimes I used to be a heartthrob, now I`m a coronary, what can I tell you?
BEHAR: You`re still cute, Davy.
JONES: Thank you so much.
BEHAR: What about dating at 85? Let`s just -- I mean, we`re all going to get old, hopefully, you know, knock wood, we`ll all be there one day. Is it a fetish for a 25-year-old girl to want to sleep with an 85- year-old guy?
BERNARD: I think a 60-year age difference is pretty rough.
BEHAR: It`s pretty rough.
BERNARD: We were talking about somebody who had I think a 20- or 30- year age difference and that seemed scandalous. This is just obviously not even remotely real, although he said that he -- she lied to him because he really believed that she was in love with him.
BEHAR: Aw, that`s so beautiful.
BERNARD: That is so ridiculous.
BEHAR: All right. Delusional, a new trend in parenting is that people are now bringing their babies into bed them. And they`re having sex when they think the kids are asleep.
ADSIT: Much like Hef.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: I don`t go for that.
JONES: That there, I mean, I can remember, you know, I`ve got four daughters, all girls. And the thing would be -- I remember, it didn`t really work that way because it`s not like all of a sudden they`re in bed and all of a sudden you`re trying to make love to "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star," in the background that day, you know what I mean?
So it`s kind of.
BEHAR: But you can`t have a guy yelling, who`s your daddy, and the baby goes.
(LAUGHTER)
BERNARD: He`s talking about me.
BEHAR: He`s talking about me.
BERNARD: I think it`s completely horrifying.
BEHAR: And the baby goes -- I am sorry, we`re screwing up every joke today. The baby goes, you are, that`s the joke. Thank you very much. Good night, everybody.
BERNARD: It`s completely horrifying because this whole idea of co- sleeping, which has gotten really popular, they even make bassinets that hook right up to the bed now. But I mean.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: That`s nice, what`s wrong with that?
BERNARD: I just mean it`s fine to sleep there, but I don`t think you should be having sex in front of your young child.
ADSIT: You can get the umbilical cord put back on now, you know that?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Really? Why would you want to do that?
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: I`m not quite sure what it`s like once other guys have had babies, but the idea would be, you know, something happens, you know, after a woman`s had a child. And you`re into a different phase of your relationship.
BEHAR: Yes.
JONES: So what you`re doing is you`re -- you`re helping out and when we first had our first baby, you know, I mean, the baby would go to me after the first feeding in the middle of the night. I`d take the baby upstairs. She`d lie on my chest like this, and then two hours later, I`d have to hand back and do what.
BEHAR: Right.
JONES: And sex wasn`t on my mind at that particular time. Well, it was on my mind, and I went to the doctor and asked him to help me lower it, you know what I mean? But that was a different story.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: What about the Octomom? Imagine if she had sex with all her children in the bed with her. You know what I mean? You take it to its extremes, this is an insane idea.
ADSIT: Is this what you imagine all the time?
(LAUGHTER)
ADSIT: Are you asking us to get in on your kink, Joy?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: I think about it.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: I`m sure when the Octomom goes skydiving, there`s a noise.
(WHISTLING)
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Wow. Hey, hey, he`s a Monkee.
JONES: Sorry, sorry.
BEHAR: All right. Let`s go on to another story, a new poll says that half of men would dump their girlfriends if they got fat. But only 20 percent of women would dump their guys for the same reason. This is why I want to move to Russia, 20 more pounds on me, and I could rule the world in Russia. Because those women are hefty.
But these men, they would dump their girlfriends if they put on weight.
JONES: Honestly, it doesn`t really matter. It`s what`s happening when you`re talking. And I was with this girl, right, and she was very, very big. And she said, slap me. I said, OK. And I went like this.
(PANTOMIMES SLAPPING)
(LAUGHTER)
JONES: She enjoyed it.
BEHAR: You know, you`re very kinky. You think I`m kinky. That`s kinky.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: You`re making me that way. You`re making me that way.
BEHAR: Oh, I`m doing it to you. Oh yes, blame me.
JONES: Yes, you are. Yes, well.
ADSIT: He`s getting turned on.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: So what about this, Sarah?
BERNARD: You know, the double standard is so upsetting. And we actually did a post recently on Yahoo! that was all about men`s grooming habits that really upset women. And it`s so unfair, you know? Summer is here. We`re all keeping our toes polished, you know, looking great in our bathing, and then there are these guys with these enormous guts, hobbit feet, one of our viewers call it. Hobbit feet, hair coming out of their ears and nose, and they`re fine. They think it`s nothing wrong with it.
BEHAR: I know. It`s fine for them. Scott, would you like to weigh in on this?
ADSIT: I don`t think I`ve ever dated someone who was overweight. I haven`t. And.
BEHAR: Would you?
ADSIT: Yes. If the personality was.
BEHAR: Oh, come on.
BERNARD: He hesitated.
(CROSSTALK)
ADSIT: Why, you don`t think I would? You don`t know me well enough.
BEHAR: I don`t believe men when they say, it was the personality, it`s not the figure. Give me a break.
ADSIT: No, it`s a funny woman overrules everything else.
BEHAR: Oh yes, men are just walking around with funny fat women.
(LAUGHTER)
JONES: Well, it happens in the relationships.
BEHAR: Oh, my God, talk about a magnet. A funny fat woman? The men just go wild for that.
(CROSSTALK)
ADSIT: I`m just thinking, you know, if you say fat and funny, I might just say, skinny and beautiful.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Skinny and beautiful and not funny.
ADSIT: Oh, yes, she has got to be dumber than me.
BERNARD: Funny is secondary.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: And, you know, it`s just that we don`t get -- dump them when they have a small, you know, thing.
JONES: No, actually, I was called up in the American Army, you know, years ago. And I`m walking around with six other guys naked, and this guy says, you`ve not got a very big one, do you, Jones?
I said, I thought we were only going to fight them. You know, that.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Guys, thanks very much. And if you want to see Scott Adsit -- listen to this, if you want to see him take a dramatic turn, he`ll be appearing in the Fundamental Theater production of "Hamlet" at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival next month. And he`ll also join me on August 26th at Guild Hall in East Hampton, New York, for "Celebrity Autobiography." Oh, that`s going to be interesting.
We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Ann Coulter is conservative, provocative, and argumentative. Yet somehow I still like her. What is wrong with me? Her latest book, "Demonic: How the Liberal Mob Is Endangering America," is in stores now. I`m happy to welcome back to my show the always entertaining Ann Coulter.
Welcome to the show, Ann.
ANN COULTER, AUTHOR, "DEMONIC": Thank you. So good to be here.
BEHAR: I asked you this last time, do you consider me part of the liberal mob?
COULTER: No because you`re funny.
BEHAR: What has that got to do with it?
COULTER: That`s how I signed in your book. I want to put you in a cage, in a zoo someplace, the last living funny liberal.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Maybe it will amuse you to know that I was on a list as one of the most annoying liberals in America. I was number, I think, 16 or something.
COULTER: I have been on so many of those lists, take it as a compliment. And I`m not liberal.
BEHAR: I do. I take it as like being on Nixon`s enemies list. I enjoy that sort of thing.
COULTER: There was no enemies list. That was an invention by -- it was a list John Dean wrote down, Nixon never asked for it, never saw it. Everybody drags out being on Nixon`s enemies list.
BEHAR: OK. Here`s where I have to pull rank on you because I was actually alive during that time, and I know there was a list.
COULTER: I read a lot.
BEHAR: I know. But I read, too, and I was there. And there was a list, Ann.
COULTER: Right, but it was John Dean`s list, it wasn`t Nixon`s.
BEHAR: They did it together.
COULTER: No, Nixon would walk around the Oval Office denouncing various journalist, and John Dean puts this list together. Now every liberal in America claims he was on Nixon`s enemies list, it didn`t exist.
BEHAR: Don`t tell me that you liked Nixon. I don`t even want to go into that. Let`s talk about.
COULTER: No, he was too liberal for me.
BEHAR: Oh, my God.
COULTER: Though I liked Watergate. I think we should spy on the Democrats.
BEHAR: That`s what got him practically -- that`s why he had to resign.
COULTER: I was saying the one thing I liked.
BEHAR: Yes, OK. So let`s talk about what`s going on right now because I just read a poll in The Washington Post. It was a CBS/New York Times poll, and they said that 72 percent of Americans want higher taxes for very rich people in this country.
Now, if most Americans want us to tax the rich and make it fair, which is the most American thing that we have is fairness, why is the Republican Party holding up the country with this whole fiasco in Washington right now?
COULTER: Well, for one thing, I also want to tax the rich, particularly Warren Buffett, Bill Gates, Bill Gates`s father. I think there should be an open-your-yap tax where if you are a billionaire and start calling for middle-class taxes to be raised, we should just take all of your money. That`s it, just take it all.
But yet and still, and I`m still in favor of that, that will not solve our problems. You can -- you could take 100 percent of the money, forget income tax, forget a wealth tax, 100 percent of the money of the richest 1 percent and that would cover, oh, about 1 percent of our budget.
Corporate jet tax isn`t going do it. And by the way, the stuff the Republicans are dying to cuts, NPR, arts funding, foreign aid, that`s all - - you put it all together, it`s 1 percent of the budget. It`s Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, which already consume about -- plus interest on the national debt, that already consumes 50 percent of the budget.
According to Tim Geithner, Obama`s own treasury secretary, within 10 years those three -- well, entitlements and servicing the debt will consume 92 cents of every dollar of the federal budget. So you have to deal with Medicare, Social Security, and Medicaid.
BEHAR: Well, they were trying to do that.
COULTER: No, they really aren`t. Nobody wants to because the American people keep saying, oh, don`t touch my Social Security.
BEHAR: Nobody wants to. When you hit 65 you`re not going to want them to cut it either.
COULTER: Well, when they enacted Social Security, the average life span was 65.
BEHAR: Well, maybe they have to tweak it. Maybe they have to tweak it. But there are people right now who rely on it, and people who rely on Medicare.
COULTER: Sure. But I think it would be easier to have just one welfare outfit in Washington, whether it`s food stamps, whether your child was born with some dread disease, whether you`re old, whether you didn`t save, whether it`s bad luck or stupidity, and not have 18 -- do you know how many federal programs there are?
BEHAR: How many what?
COULTER: Federal programs, just to feed the poor. There are like 18 programs spending, oh, $62 million a year.
BEHAR: So you`re not against.
COULTER: Have one program.
BEHAR: You`re not against the safety net, you`re just against the confusion in the safety net? Is what that what I`m hearing?
COULTER: And the waste, and the government workers, and the endless programs, you`d have to have a major fraud unit. But just instead of having all of these different government bureaucrats, because I think that`s the Democrats` true constituency, government workers, not the poor.
BEHAR: No, that`s not true.
COULTER: Yes, that is true.
BEHAR: OK. It`s not.
COULTER: Excellent point, Ann.
BEHAR: No, you`re the only one who thinks so.
Today House Speaker "Boner," he told.
COULTER: It`s not "Boner."
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Sorry, John Boehner, he told the GOP, quote, this is today, "get your ass in line." OK, trouble in paradise with the tea party.
COULTER: Not really, they have one half of one branch of government and they are doing pretty well. They`re at least coming forward and making compromises, but the president won`t accept any cuts in spending. And there have to be cuts in spending. The longer we put this off.
BEHAR: They`ve already given them the store. The progressives are up in arms. Bernie Sanders almost went into cardiac arrest today because he`s so angry with Obama for all the concessions he has made already. What are you talking about?
COULTER: To quote the great Rahm Emanuel, the Democratic base are "F- ing retards." Obama has given nothing. He won`t cut anything. He just keeps saying we`re going to tax corporate jets. That will take care of everything. They`re lying to Americans.
BEHAR: All right. Let`s change the subject. Giving me a headache. Don`t you think it`s all headache-ville to talk about money in this country?
COULTER: It`s important but I think we`re driving the viewers away. So let`s get to Representative.
BEHAR: That`s possible. We`ll get to him in a second. But what about Michele Bachmann? First of all, today it came out that she spent $5,000 on hair and make-up or something.
COULTER: Oh, come on. You spend that in a month.
BEHAR: I`m not running for anything. Except for my life after I interview you.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: But I mean, her husband has a Christian counseling clinic that says you can pray the gay away. Do you think he protesteth too much?
COULTER: No, actually, there was an op-ed in The New York Times this weekend that I agreed with. I think this is -- liberals are playing on the same sort of gay stereotypes they normally reject. And they get angry at and should get angry at. There are straight men who are mildly effeminate, there are plenty of gays who are not effeminate at all. Oh well. They have (INAUDIBLE) biological kids, he`s not gay.
BEHAR: But do you believe you can pray the gay away? Come on.
COULTER: Well, again, The New York Times had an article a month ago in the magazine section about a guy who used to run this big gay magazine in San Francisco. And then he found God and he`s not gay anymore. The most important part of that story.
BEHAR: He says that.
COULTER: The most important part of the story -- well, The New York Times was annoyed but they didn`t deny it. The most important part of the story, so I`m glad you ask, was that he`s a huge Ann Coulter fan.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Who, this closet case you`re describing?
COULTER: Probably from his gay days.
BEHAR: Yes, probably. But I mean, it`s impossible to pray the gay away. So why don`t they just pack it in?
COULTER: Well, there are some people who aren`t -- maybe they weren`t really gay to begin with, maybe they were molested as children. There are people who go that way. There are -- I mean, for liberals who think that every sort of polymorphous perversity is normal.
BEHAR: But wait a minute.
COULTER: . you can`t imagine that you could go from being gay to straight, it does happen.
BEHAR: No, but you can`t pray the straight away. Nobody goes from straight to gay. People stay straight when they`re straight. Why do gay people think they have to be straight?
COULTER: Well, that would be weird praying the straight away. But you can pray lots of stuff away.
BEHAR: Well, I mean, what about the gay marriage in New York, you`re happy about it, right?
COULTER: The only reason I might be happy is maybe they will shut up about it. OK, the media capital of the word has gay marriage. Can we move on now? I`m not only want "don`t ask/don`t tell" for the military, I want "don`t ask/don`t tell" for all of society. Just give me a week where we`re not talking about the gays.
BEHAR: What do you mean you want "don`t ask,/don`t tell" for the military? You want to go back to that system? That was corrupt.
COULTER: Yes, the Clinton system.
BEHAR: Why? They that didn`t help anybody. Why do people who are.
COULTER: I was moving on to "don`t ask/don`t tell" for all of society.
BEHAR: I know. But it sounded as though you wanted it in the military.
COULTER: I`m sick of.
(CROSSTALK)
COULTER: Not only that, I not only don`t want open gays in the military, I don`t want open girls in the military. That`s an issue I told the conservative gay.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Do you want open heteros in the military? Why doesn`t everybody stay in the closet?
COULTER: Heterosexual men, the same sort of.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Should they stay in the closet?
COULTER: . men who can be firemen.
BEHAR: That`s what you want?
COULTER: Look, this isn`t a normal life they have. Bless them. They`re sleeping, you know, in foxholes together. They`re in trucks. They`re bathing.
BEHAR: So what?
COULTER: So I don`t think is going to help military preparedness. It`s sad.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It works in so many countries.
(CROSSTALK)
COULTER: So many countries are relying on our military to protect them. We`re just lucky Germany doesn`t start arming again.
BEHAR: OK. Don`t bring that up. More with Ann Coulter on the way.
Don`t bring Germany into this, I`ll go wild.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You don`t send your children to public schools, you send them to private schools. So I was wondering why you think it`s fair to be cutting school funding to public schools?
GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: What`s her name?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s her name, guys, real quick, because the governor is talking? What is it? Gail (ph). Talk to Gail.
CHRISTIE: Hey, Gail, you know what, first off, it`s none of your business. I don`t ask you where you send your kids to school. Don`t bother me about where I send mine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: I`m back with Ann Coulter. What is he, off carbs today or something? Because he`s touchy, touchy, touchy.
COULTER: And right before his debates with Obama, we`re taking his donuts away.
(LAUGHTER)
COULTER: We`re going to send him in just like that.
BEHAR: And turning, turning like that on a caller.
COULTER: I love that man.
BEHAR: Why do you like him so much?
COULTER: Because look at that just now. Most of these Republicans, bless them, but, you know, they are very rare, the elected Republicans who can put two sentences together. And you watch your guy giving a speech and your stomach -- remember Bush, I love him, but he couldn`t talk. We need a president who can talk.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: My stand-up act was great those years, boy. I just had to read quotes from him and it would kill. Go ahead.
COULTER: And it`s amazing we won with a man who could not talk. Shows how popular our ideas are. Anyway, with Christie, you just sit back and get out the popcorn.
BEHAR: I thought it was the Republican machine that got him in.
COULTER: Yes, the machine.
BEHAR: How about the Supreme Court and the Florida chad-hanging situation?
COULTER: All nine justices.
BEHAR: You forgot that? You forgot that.
COULTER: . agreed to the system of counting that made Bush president.
BEHAR: Well, they should be fired, all of them. This whole idea, until death do they part is baloney. That`s an error from Thomas Jefferson, in my opinion.
COULTER: No, the error is when they start going -- I mean, it should be a very boring job. We shouldn`t be reading about Supreme Court decisions. They shouldn`t be dictating social policies. If they did what their jobs were, we wouldn`t even notice them.
BEHAR: That would be better. But, I mean, think thing about him is that he cut -- he slashed, Christie, $820 million in state aid to schools last year and he sends his kid to private schools. Hypocrite or no?
COULTER: No. Not at all. In fact, I write about -- I mean, not anticipating this, but I write about this in my smash bestseller "Demonic," no, it`s hypocritical for Democrats who don`t want to give poor families the choice.
My party supports school choice and vouchers and supporting parochial schools.
BEHAR: No, but that`s not right.
COULTER: Because you get a voucher from the government and you go to whatever school you want. All these rich liberals, Obama, Gore, Clinton, Chris Matthews, oh, no, no, no.
BEHAR: Rahm Emanuel.
COULTER: . we must support the teacher`s unions and force all poor school kids into these crappy public schools where all they learn about is women and gays contributions to the American Revolution, but not history, reading, arithmetic.
And they send their own kids to these lily white private schools.
BEHAR: How about just fixing the public school system? I was a teacher in the public school system. Fix the system. Don`t have vouchers at other schools were people have to be separated from the system.
COULTER: We have been trying to...
BEHAR: That`s not right.
COULTER: . fix it for, oh, 50 years now. It keeps getting worse. You know, you know how you fix it, you put a little competition in.
BEHAR: OK. I`ve got to go. All right. Always a pleasure to see you.
COULTER: Is that it?
BEHAR: Yes, it is.
COULTER: We didn`t even get to the Representative Wu?
BEHAR: Well, we`ll have you back.
COULTER: I want to see that man in a tiger outfit.
BEHAR: OK. Her book is called "Demonic: How the Liberal Mob Is Endangering America."
Before we go, don`t forget, CNN and HLN are the very first news networks in the United States to stream 24-hour news online and on mobile, which means even if you`re not sitting in front of a TV, you can watch live including breaking news. Check out cnn.com/video to find out how. Thank you for watching, good night everybody.
END
