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Joy Behar Page
Casey Anthony Image Rehab; DSK Accuser Speaks Out; Secrets of a Polygamous Sect; Interview With Andrew "Dice" Clay
Aired July 28, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, new video surfaces of Casey Anthony drinking beer just hours after being released from jail. As Casey`s people continue to shop her story around to TV networks, will there ever be a big payday for Casey?
Then opening statements in the Warren Jeffs underage polygamy trial; we`ll take a look inside the fascinating closed-off world of Jeff`s Texas ranch.
Plus crude, sexist and widely popular in the early `90s, comedian Andrew Dice Clay was performing to packed arenas. So what happened? Joy has a very candid conversation with the Dice man.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Just hours after being released from prison, Casey Anthony was caught on camera with a beer on her hand. This is according to TMZ who says they saw the video. They also say Casey`s people are shopping around the tape as they look for money-making opportunities for their client.
But is this really the best image for her team to be putting out there? With me now to talk about it are Mark Geragos, noted defense attorney; plus Judy Smith, crisis management expert and president and CEO of Impact Strategies. Her past clients include Michael Vick and Monica Lewinsky.
Welcome to the show, Mark.
MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Thank you.
BEHAR: Ok. Casey is supposedly in this video holding a half-empty Corona bottle in this video. Good idea?
GERAGOS: You mean as opposed to she had a double (INAUDIBLE) scotch? I don`t know. If I`m in custody for three years and eight months or whatever she was, facing the death penalty, I think I`m going to be doing some alcohol therapy when I get out.
BEHAR: But is this the first best image for her to be putting out there?
GERAGOS: No, of course not. But you know, look, she is infamous, not famous. She has all kinds of opportunities, I suppose, and people will freak out when I say that. But the image that she wants to portray right now in my humble opinion, Judy may give you the opposite, I think she should just lay as low as she can and be in hiding until the next scandal comes along and she gets eclipsed.
BEHAR: Yes, I mean the daughter is skill gone; poor, little Caylee.
GERAGOS: Right.
BEHAR: Judy, what do you think?
JUDY SMITH, CRISIS MANAGEMENT EXPERT: Yes, I mean I agree with Mark. Look, it`s the worst kind of image that you can possibly put out. It just really piles on what people think about her already. My advice to her would certainly be, not to do anything.
I mean, really, she`s one of the most controversial figures, and that`s putting it mildly, in America right now. That`s being kind. So, no, I would do absolutely nothing. She needs some -- yes.
BEHAR: Is it possible, Judy, that this was done on purpose? That anticipating it might get her more money if she were doing nothing, how boring is that? This way there`s something to pay for? I mean it sounds cynical but what do you think?
SMITH: No, I mean -- cynical, yes. But the fact of the matter is that it won`t get her any more money. I mean in and of it by herself without her drinking, the story is sensational enough where if they are shopping it around and people are interested, people are going to buy it. But I think one of the things that whoever buys it, you know, wherever they shop it, the network or cable outlet, they`re going to have to answer to the public. The trouble with one on one --
GERAGOS: Actually, it`s a great move by Harvey Levin and TMZ because Harvey, this way, has seen it and he gets all the hits for TMZ but he doesn`t have to pay for the tape. So he lets it out there, he doesn`t pay for it and he gets all the attention which is all he wants to drive traffic to TMZ.
BEHAR: That`s true. And speaking of TMZ I understand that they`re reporting that you met with Jose Baez --
GERAGOS: I have. I had a couple of drinks.
BEHAR: -- to give him some advice on negotiating a big deal. Is that true?
GERAGOS: We had our own alcohol therapy over at the Mandarin.
BEHAR: What did you talk about?
GERAGOS: We -- I never discuss what I talked about.
BEHAR: Just give me a little bit, come on Mark.
GERAGOS: Well, we talked --
SMITH: Come on Mark.
GERAGOS: If it was work product or attorney/client, give me a little bit. We just chatted. He has an interesting story and I wanted to talk to him and I took me -- I have a daughter here in college so I took her over there so she could meet him and it was very nice.
BEHAR: That`s it?
GERAGOS: That`s it.
BEHAR: Go ahead.
SMITH: Let me be Mark. So if I`m Mark, what Mark is going to be talking about is certainly, if you are trying to get a price for the interview, you`re going to have to be cautious because the networks are going to have to answer to the public. Did they pay for the interviews? Did they pay for footage? Is the attorney part of the deal where he gets to be a commentator? Was there any quid pro quo? Were there any restrictions on the interview?
BEHAR: There is that.
SMITH: All the things --
GERAGOS: And Judy, you know what they do. You know as well as I do. What they do is that they pretend they have this kind of clarity of their mission of journalistic mission. They`ll have another division that has an imprint in the book. They`ll say, ok we`ll buy the book here. Go do the interview over here. That`s marketing for the imprint but it`s journalism. We didn`t pay even though our other division did. Or they`ll license the photos or video.
BEHAR: It`s very sneaky and shouldn`t be allowed.
GERAGOS: But that`s what happens. I mean that`s exactly what happens.
SMITH: That`s right. And I just think in this case, people are going to pay really, really close attention to that. And those things are going to be -- they`re going to be scrutinized no matter how you look at it.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Is there anything that she can do -- both of you, is there anything that she can do to fix her image at this point? What can she do?
SMITH: Well, you know, for me, short of identifying another killer, I mean no. You know, her image, despite the evidence, despite the verdict, the majority of people think that she did it.
BEHAR: Right.
SMITH: And so it`s -- it`s going to be extremely difficult.
BEHAR: So it`s not much.
Do you think she cares, Mark?
SMITH: No, it`s not.
GERAGOS: Do I think she cares? I think everybody cares. I mean I`ve never had a client who didn`t care about the public perception. I mean I don`t care if you`re infamous or famous, you always care about that. But at a certain point when you`ve been beat up and you had to sit there and -- part of what happens is a client sits there, goes through trial and it`s a horrible thing to hear people talk about you, beat the heck out of you for six weeks and basically you don`t say anything in return so at a certain point you kind of withdraw into yourself, you go into a different world.
BEHAR: But even the day after she was acquitted she came out with a new hairdo and everything. I thought that was a mistake. It just puts fuel on the fire. People hate you anyway. Don`t be looking glamorous and happy.
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: The psycho-brigade is always going to come out.
BEHAR: The psycho-brigade -- are you referring to my network?
GERAGOS: Well, let me just tell you something. The part and the psycho-brigade and I`ll get e-mails from whoever, who always want to tell you about -- I know she`s guilty and I know she killed her because -- you know, you say to yourself, hello. These people -- there were 12 jurors there who were by all accounts fairly intelligent who actually listened to the evidence who followed the jury instructions. They came out and they said we don`t even know that there was a homicide. That`s what`s so infuriating about this.
Ok. You suspect her. Yes, it was 31 days. Yes, yes, she didn`t act right. She`s a liar. They convicted her of being liar. The prosecution didn`t make their case. That`s what the American justice system about. I don`t know why people get so angry about it.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You know why? Because Mark, a lot of people are over-CSI`d in this country.
SMITH: Right.
BEHAR: We`re all watching those shows and expecting forensic evidence on every little thing.
GERAGOS: And look what happened in this case? Look what happened in this case. There was more junk science that was absolutely ludicrous. Then we come out and learn afterwards that the supposed computer forensic guy was all screwed up. It wasn`t 84 times it might have been one time -- it might have been three times.
BEHAR: That`s true.
GERAGOS: And then we`ve go the other guy --
BEHAR: What`s the difference? As long as it was one time? Who cares if it was 85; one is enough.
GERAGOS: They wanted to say -- they`re the one who is embraced that. They`re the ones who said it.
BEHAR: All right. Let`s talk about another case.
SMITH: You know what?
BEHAR: Last word on this because I want to switch the topic.
SMITH: The thing that I was going to say was, you know, Mark mentioned that when you go through that you hear all these awful things and people are talking about you. I think clients now given the media environment that we`re living in, they`re to a point where they say, everybody has profited. The television networks have gotten incredible ratings. Now it`s my turn to A, tell my story, and to get financially compensated for it. So I think you`ve seen more and more of this.
BEHAR: Ok. Let`s do this other story because I don`t have a million hours here.
Another woman trying to repair her image is the hotel maid who accused Dominique Strauss-Kahn of raping her after prosecutors openly questioned her credibility. She decided to go public. Today she held a press conference in Brooklyn. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NAFISSATOU DIALLO, ACCUSING DSK OF SEXUAL ASSAULT: I am here because I have people call me a lot of bad names. That`s why I have to be here. And let people know, a lot of things that they say about me is not true.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Mark, was it a good idea for her to go public?
GERAGOS: Let me tell you something. One of my closest friends in the world is DSK lawyer, Ben Brafman who is a splendid lawyer and an even better person. He -- I haven`t talked to him today yet but I guarantee you Ben`s sitting over there and he`s doing the dance.
He cannot be happier. This is the greatest thing in the world. You have New York where you don`t get access to the witness beforehand in a preliminary hearing. They go to the grand jury. Now she`s out there telling another story.
Is this the right story? Is story two the right story? Is story three the right story? The prosecutors are down there, they`re hunkered down saying -- why is she doing this? I couldn`t be happier if I`m the defense lawyer. This is manna from heaven.
BEHAR: Judy, I hear you moaning. Judy.
SMITH: I am. I am. Because you know, look, from her perspective, it was a good move for her. She got a chance to tell her side of the story. The issue that I have with it is timing. When they saw a few weeks ago that this case was unraveling and all this information and inconsistent stories were coming out, if they were going to do something, that`s when they should have done it. The timing is totally, totally off on that.
GERAGOS: Exactly right. If she wanted --
(CROSSTALK)
SMITH: Yes. Yes.
GERAGOS: -- if she needed a cathartic release or therapy, go to a psychiatrist, don`t do it at a press conference. The prosecutor has got to be out of his head at this point.
BEHAR: Ok before we go. I have to go. Thanks very much, Judy for doing this.
SMITH: Oh you`re welcome.
BEHAR: Ok and Mark, I hear your mom is not feeling well?
GERAGOS: My mom just got out of the hospital. She`s one of your biggest fans. Betty Jane.
BEHAR: Oh Betty Jane feel better baby, Betty Jane. I`m glad to hear that she`s doing better.
GERAGOS: Thanks Joy.
BEHAR: Ok, thank you both very much.
We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: You know a lot of people think Warren Jeffs is crazy. He`s the leader of a religious sect, a polygamist who says he has 80 wives and he`s currently on trial in Texas for the sexual assault of two underage girls. Not crazy enough? Today he decided to represent himself in court.
Joining me to talk about it are: Flora Jessop, a former victim of his polygamist community and the author of "Church of Lies"; plus Jean Casarez, correspondent for "In Session" on TruTV.
Ok. Jean -- bad idea to represent himself?
JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION" TRUTV: But really not surprising, right?
BEHAR: No, yes.
CASAREZ: Because he wants to lead, he wants to be in control and he wants his story out. You know, I`m wondering, because this is a forensics case. This is all about DNA. And that takes a lot of training to cross- examine in court. I think he may just stand still and not say too much during that but get his religious message out. So could he be a martyr in the end to order?
BEHAR: Oh boy. What were his opening statements like?
CASAREZ: He`s opening statement -- I think that he`s just talking expounding about the message of God with him as the prophet. I don`t think going into the allegations of sexual assault, because that`s what this case is all about, did he sexually assault --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
CASAREZ: -- rape, underage girls.
BEHAR: Yes right. But I mean could he be setting himself up for an appeal here because he`s going to screw up the whole thing?
CASAREZ: Well, he can`t appeal on effective in assistance of counsel --
BEHAR: Oh.
CASAREZ: -- because he`s the counsel.
BEHAR: I see.
CASAREZ: So lost that one.
BEHAR: So ok, good, then good.
CASAREZ: Yes.
BEHAR: Now Flora, you know, you have such an interesting situation with you. You escaped the sect.
Talk about the daily routine of the women of the cult. Because I`m very interested in the women and how do they raise their children, for example?
FLORA JESSOP, FORMER VICTIM OF FLDS POLYGAMOUS SECT: Well -- well, within the dynamics of the family, when you`re as -- as a woman when you`re required to have a child a year, you`re -- that takes a very big toll on your body. And so you`re not effectively permitted to raise your children in a way of proper -- you properly should.
So raising the children in large part, falls to the other children within the home. It`s -- it`s the other children that have to comb their hair and make sure they`re fed and -- and the other children do their lessons and things like that.
And one of the things that Warren Jeffs did do was he removed the care of the child from the mothers beginning about 18 months of age here in the last few years because he said there was too much bonding occurring within -- with the mother and the child.
BEHAR: He doesn`t like that?
JESSOP: And -- oh, absolutely not. Because then you have situations like Carolyn Jessup who was amazing in getting her eight children out. She protected her children and that`s what happens when you`re permitted to bond with them. So --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Who is that? Your mother?
JESSOP: Carolyn Jessup.
BEHAR: Yes.
JESSOP: No, she wrote the book "Escape." And she`s an amazing, amazing lady that escaped with her children. So you know, the dynamics are -- it`s liked controlled chaos --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
JESSOP: -- within these homes.
BEHAR: It`s like -- it`s like that you need a resistance movement within this -- this cult.
CASAREZ: It`s amazing -- so much of this -- I mean this is a world we don`t know about --
JESSOP: Yes.
BEHAR: But we`re getting to know it and I`m fascinated by the fact that this could exist in this country. That this man probably, I don`t know for sure but I don`t think he pays taxes because he hides behind religion. He abuses children. He abuses women. He`s is a -- is Svengali and he`s getting away with it all these years.
(CROSSTALK)
CASAREZ: And why is he going away with it?
BEHAR: It`s outrageous.
CASAREZ: Why doesn`t the FBI get involved? If there are so many crimes being committed as we are hearing. I mean crime after crime, why is this secret world allowed to exist?
BEHAR: I don`t know. I mean and -- and in your book Flora, you say that young girls are free until they`re 8 years old and then begins the age of accountability. Can you please explain what that means?
JESSOP: Correct. In the dynamics you are allowed to be a child, basically you`re -- up until the age of 8, that`s when the absolute obedience training is implemented; the waterboarding, the -- the aspects of that type of control. You`re learning how to become perfect, submissive, obedient.
Then, at age 8 you are baptized and all of your sins are washed away, the child has sins. So now you come into the age of accountability where you are -- you are responsible now for all of your actions, all of your sins --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: At 8 years old?
JESSOP: -- at 8 years old.
BEHAR: Yes.
JESSOP: And that`s when their schooling starts, there is the heavy indoctrination. One of the things that`s very interesting about the people who leave the cult and that we`ve seen time after time after time is an age regression that is occurring all the way up to mothers with children. They`re regressing back to speech, mannerisms, everything, to about a 7 and 8-year-old mentality. And they -- they progress rapidly once they go back to that point. But it is a very pronounced regression that we see.
To give you an idea of what kind of things they do -- imagine seeing a 16-year-old boy that is 190 pounds, curl up in a fetal position on his mother`s lap, lay his head on his shoulder and say, mommy, please, make me be a boy again. Make me because if she makes him be a boy, she takes away his responsibility of being a priested man.
BEHAR: What is a priested man now? What`s that?
JESSOP: A priested man is all of the boys in the community are -- are put into the priested training and are given authority over all women at the age of 14.
BEHAR: A-ha.
JESSOP: And so they only answer to the prophet at that age.
BEHAR: The prophet meaning Jeffs?
JESSOP: Correct, correct.
BEHAR: Ok, all right, I`m going to hold --
JESSOP: If their mothers --
BEHAR: Go ahead, finish the sentence and then we`ll take a break.
JESSOP: If their mothers don`t obey them, they will get violent with their mothers to the point where we`ve had to have some of the boys incarcerated for that.
BEHAR: Ok. We`re going to take a little break and come right back with a little more on this. Stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`re back talking about the sexual assault trial of polygamous sect leader, Warren Jeffs. You know, the fact that he`s representing himself, Jean, isn`t it going to intimidate some of the witnesses? Some of these women that have been brainwash and tortured this way?
CASAREZ: That`s a really good question because we`ve heard there`re about 78 witnesses from inside the compound in Eldorado that were summoned to court. The question has been, will they show up because of Warren Jeffs probably didn`t want them to come so they may think nothing of violating the law because all they care about is Warren Jeffs. Now that he`s representing himself, maybe they will come to court.
But will they tell the truth? Because we`ve learned that they are taught to lie from early ages to protect the secrets.
BEHAR: Flora, what do you think will happen there?
JESSOP: That should be very interesting to see if they actually show up. He may have them show up to show because he has this belief that his people will convince everybody that he`s the prophet and shouldn`t be held accountable for his actions.
So, I think it`s going to be very interesting.
BEHAR: That`s going to be very interesting because then the world is going to see although it`s not televised, unfortunately because this is a case I think we should see.
CASAREZ: Unfortunately.
BEHAR: You know?
CASAREZ: Yes.
BEHAR: But the world will see if we read about it and we keep covering it here, we`ll see what a monster this guy is.
JESSOP: Correct.
As a little girl though, it`s interesting, when you were in the FLDS your grandmother tried to protect you from abuse. How unusual was that for a woman to question their authority? You say it`s very hard.
JESSOP: It`s very, very unusual. My grandmother was one-of-a-kind and she married into the group as a young single mother, way back in the day and brought her young daughters into it. So I think she kind of regretted that all of her life but she was on kidney dialysis and a sickly lady and I used to go and sit and read to her when she went on her machine but she stood up to my dad and as a result of that, was dead two days later.
BEHAR: What?
JESSOP: They told me as a child for years that if I would have kept my mouth shut and had done as God commanded that my grandmother would be alive. And so I believed for years I had been -- that I was responsible for killing my best friend in the world.
BEHAR: And who do you think did kill her? Who do you think did kill her?
JESSOP: You know, I don`t know for sure who did kill her. What I do know is that there was so much salt put into her dialysis machine that it crystallized her blood vessels when it went through. It crystallized in her blood vessels when the solution went through her body.
BEHAR: Sounds a little suspicious to me. I mean the FBI needs to get involved in this case because as you said, everybody is in this cult.
JESSOP: Yes.
BEHAR: What did you say? The firemen, the policemen, everyone around it --
CASAREZ: In Arizona and Utah in that centralized area, everyone is part of it so we can see why there are no prosecutions. So we have to applaud Texas, originally the Department of Children and Family Services in Texas, for going into the Yearning for Zion Ranch.
BEHAR: They finally did.
CASAREZ: It cost Texas $12 million to do that.
BEHAR: What would have to happen for the FBI to get involved in this?
CASARE: I don`t see why they couldn`t get involved now. I think maybe this trial can afford that if the prosecution can show but I think another issue, the alleged victims in the case, will they come to court to testify because Warren Jeffs is defending himself?
JESSOP: You know Joy --
BEHAR: Yes. Go ahead, Flora.
JESSOP: I`ve been getting some feedback here in the last little bit. The FBI and federal agencies are actually looking into some of the crimes and stuff being committed by the police department.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Good. Right. Well maybe that`s the next step. I certainly hope so. We`re watching this case. I`m very interested to see what`s going to happen to this guy.
Thank you very much, both of you, for coming here today.
We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I remember Andrew "Dice" Clay from back in the day as one of the young comics who was playing in the clubs in New York like I was. And then faster than you could say forget about it he was playing Madison Square Garden, and then faster than that he didn`t seem to be playing anywhere. Now he`s back, playing himself on the final season of HBO`s "Entourage." Watch!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLAY: I got to thank you for the gig.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please.
CLAY: No. I was dead. You asked them to look at me and they did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s because I knew you were killing, and you did.
CLAY: Yes, but I`m --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But what?
CLAY: But our deal sucks. They`re paying us [ bleep ] --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s because we had no leverage.
CLAY: Well, you know what, I say we`d walk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Walk where?
CLAY: Off the show.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The show hasn`t even aired yet.
CLAY: Yes, but we`ve already won.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Well, Andrew "Dice" Clay is with me now. Welcome, Andrew, to the show.
ANDREW "DICE" CLAY, COMEDIAN: Thank you.
BEHAR: Should I call you Dice?
CLAY: Yes, that`s fine. We know each other.
BEHAR: We do. We know each other back in the `80s. Right?
CLAY: It`s a long time. Don`t remind me.
BEHAR: But you were in such a roll in those days. Were you selling out Madison Square Garden?
CLAY: It wasn`t just the garden. I did over 300 arena shows, sold out.
BEHAR: You were big.
CLAY: But everybody brings up the Garden, and I love that because it`s the most famous arena in the world. But I was doing 100,000 people a weekend. All over the country. I did --
BEHAR: Nassau Coliseum. I remember you headlined--
CLAY: That was my first one. And I wound up doing the Rose Bowl with Guns n` Roses, 100,000 people. It was pretty insane.
BEHAR: That must have made you pretty full of yourself, no?
CLAY: It really didn`t. Because I`m from Brooklyn and I grew up with the kind of family -- I know what my act is, but my family was very grounded. And to this day that`s how I am.
BEHAR: I don`t know if people know your act exactly anymore. Do you still do the rhymes?
CLAY: Yes. You know what, I do the rhymes. I always close the show with the rhymes because that`s something that fans really like doing with me, like the hit songs.
BEHAR: Hickory dickory dock.
CLAY: Yes, well, I won`t continue that right now.
BEHAR: Did you use a rhyming dictionary, just kidding?
CLAY: You can kid, you`re a comic.
BEHAR: So now you got into trouble with your act, remember, in those days?
CLAY: Yes.
BEHAR: It`s sort of quaint as a matter of fact right now because --
CLAY: Well, you know --
BEHAR: With what`s going on now. I mean, it`s nothing compared to the rappers these days and what other people are doing.
CLAY: Well, actually, I just got a call that Pitbull is one of the hottest rappers today and is using one of those rhymes on his new album.
BEHAR: Oh, really?
CLAY: Yes. So but it was crazy, because I was a lightning rod for every group out there, because I took comedy to a level where it never was before, you know, to do it to 20,000 people a night. It scared journalists. The people loved Dice and journalists were ripping me down. And you know, it was a tough time.
BEHAR: I mean, but you know, it was a very good time for comedians also in those days. Because comedians, you and what`s his name, Kinison, you were like rock stars in a certain way as comedians, big venues.
CLAY: Yes, I would say, Eddie Murphy, other than myself, Eddie Murphy would have been a real rock comic, you know what I mean?
BEHAR: And a lot of people accused you of being homophobic, of being sexist. The women were pissed at you. I remember, although you have a lot of female fans.
CLAY: Well, I got to tell you, times have changed. Today when I say things about, you know, women or couples in the crowd, women are high- fiving each other now. It`s a whole different generation.
BEHAR: It is.
CLAY: Yes.
BEHAR: And in those days they did not high-five you so much.
CLAY: Well, they did but you know, you had like the NOW organization that attached themselves for their cause to get press. And it was a crazy time.
BEHAR: And yet, I think that in a certain way people were conflating Dice with Andrew Silverstein ...
CLAY: Well, you know what it was.
BEHAR: ... because people just thought that you were the character.
CLAY: Well, you know what, that`s the thing. Today when I do interviews, they`re printing what I`m talking about in my life. Years ago, I would also talk about what was going on in my life but when the interview came out it was just about the act I was performing ...
BEHAR: Yeah.
CLAY: ... which I have to say, no matter what, is all about comedy and being funny.
BEHAR: Exactly.
CLAY: And there were all different kinds of comics out there. You have guys like Seinfeld out there.
BEHAR: But, you know, I remember a thing you did on "Arsenio Hall Show," this tape, because I was thinking about it when I booked you. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLAY: Let me say this because I always believe that you could take yourself and put yourself -- I get choked up because you put yourself where you want to be and what -- no, wait a minute ...--
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: They thought that you were kidding, I think ...
CLAY: No.
BEHAR: ... but you were not?
CLAY: I want to tell you what that was.
BEHAR: Tell me.
CLAY: That was -- that was so much controversy -- I mean, you know, my own family couldn`t believe the controversy surrounding what I would call, a Brooklyn Bozo. You know what I mean. And every time I would do the "Arsenio" show he would get a lot of pressure from these groups, also. So instead of being able to come out and be funny and do impressions, or whatever I wanted to do, it was always a debate of who is Andrew Dice Clay, who`s Andrew off stage and what I was feeling at that moment, "Ford Fairlane" was opening the next day, and my whole life has been about accomplishment. And I wanted to become the biggest comic in the world and I did that. And now my first giant movie was coming out and I wanted to get up and tell people that, I`m just like anybody else that had a dream and a goal and wanted to accomplish.
BEHAR: But it didn`t really work.
CLAY: Now, but what happened was, I got choked up. Oh, it worked. When you`re playing to millions of people around the country ...
BEHAR: Yeah.
CLAY: It worked. The movie career got crushed at that moment.
BEHAR: So, you don`t think that the fact that you got all emotional and verklempt like that --didn`t say to you ...
CLAY: No, that was 1990. I was doing arenas through `95.
BEHAR: But after that, we didn`t see the big arenas anymore.
CLAY: No, you did see him.
BEHAR: But ...
CLAY: It went on until `94 or `95.
BEHAR: To me -- my recollection is that you kind of like backed off of that character after that, wrong?
CLAY: No. Never. I never backed of from the character. I never backed off from what I do on stage. What did happen is I had a very tough marriage and when that ended, you know, this whole past decade, my thing was about my sons. Both of my sons live with me and it was about bringing them up. I didn`t really care about the career, you know, because to me the biggest accomplishment is bringing your children up.
BEHAR: Right.
CLAY: And if you fail at that, who cares about movies or TV or concerts?
BEHAR: That`s true. That`s what Jackie Kennedy says and she was so right.
CLAY: Well, it`s the truth. And they live with me and they`re two of the best guys I know. I mean I`m even here, I have my new wife with me, Valerie.
BEHAR: How old is Valerie? She`s quite younger than you.
CLAY: She`s a lot younger than me. She`s 27.
BEHAR: And how old are you now?
CLAY: I`m 53. And what have- -- and it`s not that kind of thing. I don`t go around looking for young girls, that was never my thing. But I actually got invited over two years ago when I was going to do "The Apprentice" from Brande Roderick. And this is not my thing. To go to the playboy mansion? I`ve been there twice. Once, to do a benefit for women`s breast cancer and the second time, I was just hanging at home Super Bowl Sunday, and I told my son, Max, who was 18, I go, you know, we could have went to the Playboy mansion tonight, he was making tuna sandwiches, and he just drops it, and he goes, then why are we here?
So --so we wind up at the Playboy mansion, and my wife Valerie and her friend Ria Warner (ph), they have a clothing line, called Beauty is Pain. And they would dress these girls, you know, for these parties, and about ten minutes into being there, she comes walking by me and the rest is history. We were married in a year.
BEHAR: How long are you married?
CLAY: A year and a half now.
BEHAR: OK. Now the other thing about you that -- first of all let me go back to one more thing before we start on your family. Tracy Morgan got in hot water recently for some homophobic remarks that he made on stage. You know about this?
CLAY: I heard a little about it.
BEHAR: Yeah. He got into a lot of trouble.
CLAY: I didn`t see any footage on it, or anything like that.
BEHAR: But he said that he ...
CLAY: But I was asked about it.
BEHAR: You were. What`s your take on that?
CLAY: My take is, he`s a comedian that was doing things in a comedy club, doing his act and from what I understood he like apologized to the person.
BEHAR: Yes, he did.
CLAY: So you know what ...
BEHAR: He apologized to everybody, several times, because if he didn`t he would have possibly lost his job on 30 Rock.
CLAY: Well, I didn`t even know he is on 30 Rock. I really don`t follow -- the funny thing about me.
BEHAR: He`s on 30 Rock. You`re under a rock. CLAY: You know what? I`m not -- You know, the funny thing is, you know, I`m actually going into Cyclone Stadium, I`m going to bigger venues again. I`m going to do a Ballpark in Brooklyn where I`m from and I want to start this tour from where I`m from. I never got to do a big show there. And comedians, you know, have the right on stage -- they have what`s called comedic license, which you know about.
BEHAR: Yeah.
CLAY: You know, because you were a comic.
BEHAR: No, I have -- I can`t just get on the stage and say anything I want anymore either. It`s a problem for comedians nowadays. Because everybody tapes you and photographs you and it`s out there so if you say something that gets you into trouble who needs to be aggravated?
CLAY: Yeah, but that`s my whole argument. See, I will never back down from what I do onstage. I mean and it`s not all sexual. I talk about technology, you know, I talk about how people are always on their phones, and they go to parties they don`t even enjoy the party. They`re asking did you get my e-mail and I`m going, you`re in front of me, just tell me.
BEHAR: Right.
CLAY: You want to hear my ring? You know, 55 years old. I go, pick it up, you`re wife is calling. You know, I do all that stuff.
BEHAR: I got to take a break, Andrew. We`ll be back with more from Andrew "Dice" Clay in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`re back with comedian Andrew "Dice" Clay. Andrew, in 2003, you walked off of CNN. Why did you do that? Why?
CLAY: Well, I came on, and CNN is the biggest news network in the world.
BEHAR: That`s right.
CLAY: I was actually playing the Beacon Theater the next night, which was completely sold out. And I come on this show and here`s a journalist that`s completely unprepared, asking me if I was working in a gym, you know, saying I used to be a headline guy, when I had over 3,000 tickets sold for the next night. And I almost felt like, what is his problem? His mommy doesn`t like me? So rather than drag him over the table and give him the beating of his life, because like I told you I`m from Brooklyn, I told him what I thought of him.
BEHAR: I see.
CLAY: Because this kind of network, you should be prepared with your questions. No, but I got to say it, because people -- this is a big network. And when you know you`re the first and the biggest stand-up ever to sell out all those arenas and a guy`s asking if you`re working in a gym, it makes me mad.
BEHAR: I know. But do you think that when you look back on it, would you have handled it differently?
CLAY: No.
BEHAR: I mean, you started swearing at the guy.
CLAY: Yes. He got what was coming to him. And for the rest of his life, all people are going to want to know, is why did you play with Dice like that? That`s stupid. Some people don`t know when you`re --
BEHAR: I like your self-confidence.
CLAY: You know what, some people don`t know when they`re looking into the eyes of a wolf, that`s the bottom line. You know?
BEHAR: OK. Another thing, where`s the leather jacket?
CLAY: The leather jacket, actually I wore my new leather for the premiere of "Entourage," and Jeff Hamilton, who makes all my leathers for all the big concerts, everything from the MTV jacket to the garden jacket, Dice Rules, is now making me a whole new line of leathers for my tour.
BEHAR: Now, I hear that you got the "Entourage" job, has something to do with you being in Vegas or you have a gambling issue?
CLAY: No, this was the craziest thing. We went into recession. My career was not doing well, obviously. I was playing to 120 people a night.
BEHAR: Wow, what a drop!
CLAY: But you know, this is over a decade`s time. Like I said, I was bringing my sons up. And I would rather be close to home. And I wasn`t making that much money.
So to make a long story short, I went into gambling. I used to gamble a lot. I quit for ten years and I started making all kinds of money gambling. And -- I lived hangover with my wife that entire summer, and then lost most of it. So I come back to L.A. I tell my wife I`m going to go over to Starbucks and have coffee with my son, Max, and an old friend of mine, Bruce Rubenstein (ph), who is now my manager, he worked for Mickey Rourke for 15 years. He wrote the movie "Bullet." And we hadn`t seen each other and--
BEHAR: Get to the point. I only have a minute.
CLAY: The point -- I get it, Joy. You`re asking me what happened.
BEHAR: I know, but it`s only an hour show.
CLAY: The next day we`re having coffee and he`s playing with his phone like everybody, and I`m actually getting annoyed, and he goes, why don`t you ever do a walk-on on "Entourage?" And I said, it never happened. And he goes, all I can tell you is Doug Ellin thinks you`re the greatest comic in the world and wants a meeting today. And in the meantime, Bruce was doing construction at the time.
BEHAR: So it was all a bunch of bull?
CLAY: No. It wasn`t bull, and we had the meeting, and it turned into what now is a character role.
BEHAR: That`s great. So now you`re on "Entourage." And by the way, what did you do with all the money in those big venues, where`s all the money?
CLAY: You know, I bought homes. I went through a divorce. Do I got to tell you? You know what a woman scorned does. But--
BEHAR: A woman scorned wants some of the money.
CLAY: She wants all the money. Trust me.
BEHAR: Were you cheating on her? Were you cheating on her? Is that why she was scorned?
CLAY: Well, I am writing a book. You know, everything from--
BEHAR: So it will all be in the book.
CLAY: Everything from, you know, my childhood to a love affair with Teri Hatcher (ph), and so when that book comes out you`ll read all about it.
BEHAR: Oh, you had a love affair with Lois Lane.
CLAY: But it`s nothing I want to get into now. You don`t have the time you tell me.
BEHAR: No, I don`t.
CLAY: And it`s a long story.
BEHAR: The thing about you is you tell me every little person that helped you, which is nice of you.
CLAY: Well, thanks.
BEHAR: It`s nice of you.
CLAY: You`re helping by putting me on the show.
BEHAR: I am, that`s true.
CLAY: And you look really sexy, by the way.
BEHAR: Down, boy!
CLAY: No, I`m telling you, you look great.
BEHAR: I`m too old for you.
CLAY: No, it`s not about too old. You look really great. The new hairdo, the whole thing.
BEHAR: Thank you, Dice.
CLAY: I`m not even kidding. My wife is in the green room. She knows me.
BEHAR: No, I think you`re funny. I think--
CLAY: (inaudible), my ex-fiancee, she`s here. My opening act.
BEHAR: Really?
CLAY: Yeah.
BEHAR: Your whole entourage, get it?
CLAY: She`s one of the strongest female comics today.
BEHAR: She`s your opening act.
CLAY: Yes.
BEHAR: I think that`s very nice that you are having an opening act who`s a female, considering that you were considered a sexist your entire career.
CLAY: Let me tell you something, first time this girl went on stage, she got booed off the stage, and now she`s one of the strongest comics in the country.
BEHAR: She got booed off the stage?
CLAY: Well, because my fans are animals. You got to understand. But she`s been opening for me now over four years, and she`s just the best.
BEHAR: OK. Now you can see Andrew "Dice" Clay on the final season of "Entourage" Sunday nights on HBO and he`s performing at the Tropicana in Atlantic City Saturday and Cyclone Stadium in Brooklyn in October.
CLAY: On October 1st. And you got to-- where do you go to get the tickets?
BEHAR: You go to Ticketron.
CLAY: No!
BEHAR: Oh, no, you call his manager.
CLAY: No, wait a minute, wait a minute, I got to say -- if you don`t let me say this, I`m in big trouble, if you don`t let me say this.
BEHAR: Go ahead.
CLAY: I`m in such trouble, you have no idea. I can`t believe I got to do this on the phone, OK. Go to -- all right. Just go to a -- go get tickets.
BEHAR: OK, we`ll be right back.
CLAY: What am I going to tell you? Nice seeing you.
BEHAR: We`ll be right back, yes, OK.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is your frame. You need to be strong and solid with it, OK?
CARSON KRESSLEY: Don`s not going to be Fred Astaire. And that`s not the point. He just needs to get out there, make the effort, and show his confidence.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you step on my toes?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not at all. Right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Confident.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Perfect.
KRESSLEY: I feel just like Debbie Allen in "Fame."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: OK. That`s Carson Kressley, making over America one town at a time. In an upcoming episode of his show "Carson Nation" on Own. And he`s here with me now.
You say, Carson, that this is not a makeover show but a make-better show. Explain what that means.
KRESSLEY: Sure, yes, I think there are so many makeover shows out there where it`s like, you know, they meet the person and five seconds later they`re doing the hair and makeup and then they look like they`re ready for like a Vegas lounge act or to be a Kardashian. I`m like, that`s not me. So what I do is I travel into these towns, I get to know the whole town, I know their friends, I know their family, spend a lot of time with them, and try to make them the best version of themselves.
BEHAR: I see. And did you shave that guy?
KRESSLEY: Did I shave that guy? I did not shave him personally, but I was there to supervise.
BEHAR: So you don`t do the makeover, the physical makeover at all?
KRESSLEY: I do, we do. We actually put them through the whole thing. That guy basically looked like the Unabomber. And of course he needed a makeover. So the makeover is part of the process obviously, but it is to kind of show them that if they can get themselves looking great, they can do so many other things with their lives.
BEHAR: It`s kind of an extension of the "Queer Eye" show that you used to do.
KRESSLEY: Kind of. Yes, totally, but now we`re traveling across the country.
BEHAR: Finding people who need to be made better.
KRESSLEY: I`m like a missionary, but I don`t have Bibles, I have Jimmy Chus (ph). It`s fantastic.
BEHAR: OK. So in one episode you worked with a 62-year-old woman.
KRESSLEY: I did.
BEHAR: Who transitioned from living a man to living as a woman. That`s more than a make-better.
KRESSLEY: Yes, that`s a lot, actually. But you know, it`s those kinds of stories that make the show so different, because she was, you know, lived as a man for like 58 years, decided she had always felt like a woman on the inside, wanted to make the change, had the surgery, did everything. Still married to her wife, who supported her, which was amazing. And in the show we really tell her story. And also I`m the one that gets to take her shopping for that first dress and those heels and all those things that women normally do with their moms or their sisters or their friends. She never got the opportunity to do because she didn`t transition into living as a woman until she was like 61.
BEHAR: Oh, my God, that`s complicated.
KRESSLEY: It was very complicated. I needed a chart. I was like, what should I call you? Is that your wife, your sister, yes?
BEHAR: What about this 45-year-old male virgin?
KRESSLEY: Oh, the 45-year-old virgin.
BEHAR: Which I don`t think it`s that unusual. What do you think the priesthood is supposed to be?
KRESSLEY: Right, I know, but he lived in like Scottsdale, Arizona, and he actually wanted to get laid.
BEHAR: Oh, he did?
KRESSLEY: I needed to help him. Yes, it was a cry for help.
BEHAR: So what was the reason he hadn`t had sex?
KRESSLEY: I thought it was because he didn`t look great, didn`t have confidence. But it turns out he was just cheap. Didn`t want to pay for dates, didn`t want to pay for a good hair cut, didn`t want to pay for good clothes. So I kind of came in and--
BEHAR: How much does a deodorant cost?
KRESSLEY: I don`t know.
BEHAR: All right. Thank you very much, Carson. You can check out "Carson Nation" on Own. Thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
