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Joy Behar Page
Will Casey Anthony Pose Nude?; Interview with Denise Richards; Interview With Frank Rich
Aired August 01, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, will Casey Anthony finally be getting that big pay day by posing naked? Joy talks with the notorious Larry Flynt about why he`s willing to offer Casey half a million dollars to appear nude.
Then the later on the Warren Jeffs underage polygamy trial; with Jeffs now being allowed to represent himself, will this trial turn to a veritable circus?
Plus a candid conversation with actress Denise Richards about life after Charlie Sheen and why after all these years she`s still being blamed for wrecking Richie Sambora`s marriage.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: For those of you who haven`t seen enough of Casey Anthony, you may have the chance to see more of her -- in fact, all of her. At least if Larry Flynt has his way. The porn publisher has offered Casey $500,000 to bare it all.
But before a possible appearance in "Hustler", she could be appearing in Orlando for probation on an old check fraud conviction. We`ll get to "Hustler" magazine in a minute.
But first, here to discuss this probation order is Sunny Hostin -- I always fail to get that -- legal contributor for "in session" on TruTV -- Sunny Hostin, of course. Now Sunny, is Casey supposed to be in Orlando within 72 hours? And why?
SUNNY HOSTIN, LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR, "IN SESSION": Well, if you look at Judge Strickland`s order, yes, it appears that way. He was the judge that convicted her. Well, she took a plea. He was the judge that had found that she was guilty of check fraud, and he sentenced her and he also asked for probation.
What`s so interesting, Joy, when this first broke -- you know, I`ve been covering this Casey Anthony trial for some time --
BEHAR: Yes.
HOSTIN: I said to everyone, how is it possible that Casey Anthony served probation while she was in jail waiting to be tried for the death of Caylee Anthony? Everyone told me well, she just did it jail. That`s how they do it in Florida.
But I`ve been a lawyer for quite some time and I have never seen it done. So this Judge Strickland is saying that is not what I meant. I didn`t want her to serve time for probation in prison. So now he`s sort of amended his documents because I have a copy of his amended order to make it clear that he wanted her to serve probation after everything was over. After she was free.
BEHAR: So, he can just do that?
HOSTIN: Well, I got to tell you, when it comes to Casey Anthony I never figure out what`s going on because bottom line is I`ve never seen this, Joy. I mean, judges usually don`t amend their orders to make sure that somebody serves probation after they get out. But it looks like that`s what he`s done. He`s -- he`s tried to correct his order.
BEHAR: Ok. Well, you know, there`s a little bit of concern about her safety from her side, obviously, including death threats. Is she going to be safe in Orlando? I mean that`s the scene of the whatever --
HOSTIN: I think that would be the worst place for her to go. Clearly people feel so strongly about this case not only in Orlando but all over the country. And so while the probation order appears that she should serve in Orlando, exceptions are made, Joy, all the time. And so perhaps if she is due to serve this probation for a year, they`ll give her the opportunity to serve it elsewhere.
BEHAR: And will her lawyers challenge the order?
HOSTIN: They better challenge it because, again, she`s already served probation while in jail. So any good attorney is going to challenge it and is going to say, listen, this is double jeopardy. My client`s already served her probation, you can`t ask for a do-over. She can`t do it again.
BEHAR: Ok. Thanks very much Sunny.
HOSTIN: Thanks.
BEHAR: Ok.
Let`s turn now to "Hustler" magazine publisher and author of "One Nation under Sex", Larry Flynt. Welcome to the show, Larry.
Ok. Tell me about the offer you made to Casey Anthony.
LARRY FLYNT, PUBLISHER, "HUSTLER" MAGAZINE: We made a half million dollar offer plus 10 percent of the profits because if it goes viral like her case has and everything, she would have money coming from broadcasts, VOD, and Internet, Web sites. She could make a lot of money.
BEHAR: How much? How much?
FLYNT: Well, she could make millions really. Depending on just how big it is. You know, joy, a lot of people are outraged about this.
But you know, in 1975, I published nude photos of the former first lady Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis.
BEHAR: Really?
FLYNT: I was vilified for doing that. Yes, I was vilified for doing that. The American people held her -- they treated her like royalty, you know. And I was blamed for everything that society embodied.
Here in this situation with Casey Anthony we`ve got something different here. It`s a morbid phenomenon. And the only thing I can equate it to is people who marry one another in prison with no chance of a conjugal visit or getting free.
Ramirez, the Hillside Strangler got more marriage proposals while he was in prison than anybody else in history. So while there`s a sexual component, there`s a morbid macabre-type component, as well.
BEHAR: I`m still working on the nude photos of Jackie Kennedy. Where did you get those?
FLYNT: We got them from --
BEHAR: I never saw that.
FLYNT: I`ll send you a copy.
BEHAR: That`s all right. That`s all right, Larry. I`m just fascinated by the fact that she would even take her clothes off much less pose --
FLYNT: Well, she was sunbathing on her private island in Scorpio --
BEHAR: Oh, those, when she was with Ari. I see.
FLYNT: Yes.
BEHAR: You have to know that Casey Anthony`s camp dismisses these or this offer as nonsense. Jose Baez denies any talks with "Hustler". How do you respond that?
FLYNT: I can`t respond. All I can tell him is it looks like all of the networks are saying no, because of the controversy. Hefner said no, Vivid said no. Who is she going to go if she doesn`t come to me? I know she needs money. I know her attorneys need money. I think cooler heads will prevail in this.
BEHAR: Since you went public with this offer, have you received any backlash on this? I mean she`s not the most popular kid in the class, you know.
FLYNT: Oh, yes -- tremendous amount of backlash. But people don`t understand me, you know. I`ll do just about anything for money.
BEHAR: I know that.
FLYNT: I won`t sell out my friends -- I won`t sell out my friends or break the law, but the bar is kind of low for what I`ll do. I`ve got a thick skin. I got a thick skin when it comes to criticism.
BEHAR: I see. But you know, the thing I know -- I know that you have a thick skin and you`ll do anything for money as you say. But it`s a little bit unseemly to make this girl into some kind of an object of sexual attraction after what -- people believe some horrible things about this girl. And there you are, you know, aggrandizing her in this way. Don`t you feel ashamed of yourself, Larry?
FLYNT: No. When I first heard the verdict, although I agreed with it, I felt that she was still complicit in the death of her child. Anybody in the world if they could bring that child back would, but they can`t. So everybody has to move on with their lives.
I know people are outraged, but we can`t dismantle the judicial system just because we don`t agree with the verdict.
BEHAR: I know. But we don`t have to promote future bad behavior by other kind wannabes like Miss Casey Anthony. If you reward the behavior, isn`t that kind -- I think it`s kind of immoral what you`re doing. You`re rewarding bad behavior.
FLYNT: You know, everybody`s got class, Joy. Unfortunately, mine`s a little low.
BEHAR: Is there anyone off limits, Larry? Would you like to have a picture of a naked Bernie Madoff, for example?
FLYNT: No. Look, I`ve always said it`s not the person. It`s the icon status of that individual -- I`m sure nobody would want to see Queen Elizabeth without her clothes --
BEHAR: No, I would buy that one. I would pay for that one.
FLYNT: I could sell millions of copies of magazine.
BEHAR: I know. I understand your point. You really want to take an icon and really just take the clothes off so you can see the real person.
But in this -- I`d rather see Queen Elizabeth than Casey Anthony frankly. But that`s me.
FLYNT: You know, I just got off a 20-city book tour, and I was in Houston and some people come up to me and said you should make her an offer because you don`t realize what a hairstylist and a make-up artist could do for her. We want to see that kooch, you know.
BEHAR: Ok, Larry. All right. If you think your readers are going to pay to see this girl naked, then whatever, you know.
FLYNT: Ok.
BEHAR: All right. Thank you.
FLYNT: All right. Sorry to disappoint you.
BEHAR: One more question. You said that you agreed with the verdict. I heard you say that. So you think she did not kill the child.
FLYNT: I think she was responsible for its death. I don`t think that they proved first-degree murder.
BEHAR: No, they didn`t prove first-degree murder. But what`s your opinion?
FLYNT: Well, my opinion was and I still feel that she was complicit in the death of the child.
BEHAR: So maybe it was an accident in your mind, maybe an accident?
FLYNT: I don`t want to go there. I don`t want to second guess what - -
BEHAR: The jury?
FLYNT: The jurors or the prosecutors.
BEHAR: Ok. All right. Thanks, Larry, very much.
FLYNT: Ok, Joy, thank you.
BEHAR: We`ll be right back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up next on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Joy talks with actress Denise Richards about what it`s like to have Charlie Sheen for an ex-husband.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: In the last ten years, Denise Richards married Charlie Sheen, had two kids, divorced Charlie Sheen, and became a favorite target of the tabloids. But she has survived it all and talks about it in her new book "The Real Girl Next Door." Here with me now is Denise Richards.
So Denise, first of all, are you -- do you spray tan?
DENISE RICHARDS, ACTRESS: I do. Do you want her name?
BEHAR: Yes. I mean today -- when they spray tan you, do you they do head to feet or just like neck down or what?
RICHARDS: Sometimes I don`t do my face because it`s a bit drying.
BEHAR: Yes, yes, yes.
RICHARDS: Yes, but she airbrushes it basically on me.
BEHAR: How often do you do that?
RICHARDS: It lasts about a good ten days.
BEHAR: Yes?
RICHARDS: Yes. I do get some real sun, but --
BEHAR: Not too much.
RICHARDS: Not too much, no.
BEHAR: Thank you. I needed that little tip.
RICHARDS: Yes. Thank you. Matt Lauer asked me about it, too.
BEHAR: He did?
RICHARDS: Yes, off camera, though, I think.
BEHAR: Oh. That`s the difference between Matt Lauer and me.
And the other thing I want to ask you about is this cover of your book, "The Real Girl Next Door", which is an interesting cover if you look at it out there. If they don`t show you the exact picture, I`ll show it up here. It has a picture of you with a toothbrush.
RICHARDS: Right.
BEHAR: In your jammies.
RICHARDS: In my jammies.
BEHAR: With the paparazzi following you.
RICHARDS: Exactly.
BEHAR: So I know that somebody dreamed this up. But what do you make of this?
RICHARDS: We wanted to do something very, you know, that had a little bit of humor on the cover.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes, it`s funny.
RICHARDS: To the cover and not too serious and not take myself too seriously. So you know, it`s just me home brushing my teeth and also the other side of the book, too, which is my work and --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: And that they -- that they stalk you --
RICHARDS: The tabloids and all that.
BEHAR: They follow you.
RICHARDS: They have - yes, yes.
BEHAR: Yes and the girl next door just gets up and brush their teeth just like everybody else.
RICHARDS: Exactly with my hair and make-up done.
BEHAR: Right, of course that.
RICHARDS: That`s how I look every morning.
BEHAR: Yes you are. And as I talked to you on "The View" the other day and you have three kids now and a dog. I mean, you know, it`s a -- there`s a missing husband here, right?
RICHARDS: Right.
BEHAR: Well, so the picture is not complete. But so what?
RICHARDS: You know what.
BEHAR: What?
RICHARDS: Every family is different.
BEHAR: Yes.
RICHARDS: In my family -- for right now it`s complete.
BEHAR: Yes.
RICHARDS: So -- you know, it`s -- we`re good.
BEHAR: And the last little girl, Eloise, which is -- she`s an adopted child.
RICHARDS: Yes she is.
BEHAR: How old is she now?
RICHARDS: She`s seven weeks.
BEHAR: Oh she`s a -- so who`s home with the baby now?
RICHARDS: Well, she`s here in New York. And I brought all the kids this week for our trip.
BEHAR: It`s hard to have a little infant at home, isn`t it?
RICHARDS: Well, luckily I mean, I`m able to bring her pretty much everywhere, and with my job, too, my girls, when they`re not in school or at a camp, a day camp, they can come to work when they want.
BEHAR: That`s nice.
RICHARDS: That`s nice.
BEHAR: That`s very nice. You know the last time you were here with me -- Charlie and your girls came in to New York --
(CROSSTALK)
RICHARDS: Yes.
BEHAR: -- and you Charlie had an incident at the Plaza --
RICHARDS: No, he had an incident.
BEHAR: He had an incident, right I`m sorry.
RICHARDS: I always have to clarify this.
BEHAR: You didn`t have the incident.
RICHARDS: No, I didn`t.
BEHAR: You just happened to be here.
RICHARDS: I was -- yes.
BEHAR: Right.
You`re not staying at the Plaza again, are you?
RICHARDS: No, we aren`t. The girls really wanted to, and I told them it was booked.
BEHAR: I think you should stay away from the Plaza.
RICHARDS: I do like the room we stayed at, but maybe the next time.
BEHAR: Yes.
RICHARDS: But the first time back since then with the kids, I felt we should stay somewhere else.
BEHAR: Yes. And you know -- and also the other thing is, I mean, I did interview the other day at "The View," when we`re talking about Charlie. And I thought to myself, poor Denise, it`s like you always have to answer questions about Charlie Sheen. Doesn`t it get annoying?
RICHARDS: I haven`t done one interview I think in the last eight years where I wasn`t asked about him.
BEHAR: Yes.
RICHARDS: So yes.
BEHAR: Well, you know, the thing with him is that he -- he has been a train wreck. And he`s also a popular sitcom star, you know. And he has issues. And so we can`t really talk to him. So we`re talking to you about him. You know?
RICHARDS: I understand, but I think what people don`t realize is --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
RICHARDS: -- we`ve been divorced over six years.
BEHAR: I know. That`s true.
RICHARDS: It`s been a long time.
BEHAR: I know, but you never really lose a connection to someone you had children with.
RICHARDS: Exactly. Exactly.
BEHAR: In fact, I was wondering how you shield your children from all of the publicity surrounding you and Charlie.
RICHARDS: It`s actually very, very difficult as they`re getting older. And during the last six months when things were very much in the media, I literally did not have anything on the television other than Nickelodeon and Disney.
BEHAR: Right.
RICHARDS: And the radio in the car. And it`s hard because I can`t control what other kids have on at their home. But luckily their friends, parents have been very respectful of our situation. But it -- it does gets difficult.
BEHAR: Does he see them?
RICHARDS: Yes. He`s still -- he`s their dad.
BEHAR: Right.
RICHARDS: And when things are great, it`s great. And when they`re different, then it`s different. And I just learn to deal with it.
BEHAR: Do you think it`s ironic that he`s talking about a new sitcom called "Anger Management"? I think it`s --
RICHARDS: Well, it was a funny movie. So I`m sure it will be a very funny show.
BEHAR: Yes. He`s a talented guy.
RICHARDS: He`s very talented.
BEHAR: Yes.
RICHARDS: He is.
BEHAR: It`s sort of a sad story in a certain way because you worry about people like him. You know, what with this Amy Winehouse situation --
RICHARDS: Right.
BEHAR: And they`ve tried to get me to go to the rehab and I said no, no, no.
RICHARDS: Right.
BEHAR: Well that`s -- that`s similar to the Charlie Sheen story in many ways, you know. He doesn`t seem to want to get help easily either.
RICHARDS: Well, Charlie is a survivor. And honestly, if anyone can get through this and make a big comeback and get healthy, I really in my heart believe that Charlie can. Today he`s doing great. And, you know, I take it day by day.
BEHAR: Yes. And but when your children are older, what will you do to shield them, do you think? How will you do that?
RICHARDS: You know, I`ve learned to -- I can`t predict the future and I didn`t think I would have to have certain conversations at their age now. So as they get older I`ll be able to learn how to talk to them more. But right now they know enough for what`s appropriate for their age in my opinion.
BEHAR: All right. Ok. We`re going to take a break.
We`ll have more with Denise Richards in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my guest Denise Richards. You know, Denise, in the book you discuss Richie Sambora. And you dated after both of your marriages broke up.
RICHARDS: Right.
BEHAR: Did you date him twice?
RICHARDS: No.
BEHAR: Ok. Anyway. But the press painted you as, you know, someone who stole someone`s husband.
RICHARDS: Right.
BEHAR: Heather Locklear`s husband. Tell me what happened from your point of view.
RICHARDS: Well, my point of view is the truth of what happened. He was --
BEHAR: Ok.
RICHARDS: If I did have an affair with him after everything I`ve been through I would just own it. I did it. I didn`t cheat on my husband. He didn`t cheat on his wife. And Richie was divorced. Charlie and I were divorced. And my friendship with her had ended long --
BEHAR: With Heather?
RICHARDS: Yes. Long before Richie and I ever even got together. If she and I were friends, there is no way in hell I would have ever crossed that line.
BEHAR: So you used to be friends with Heather?
RICHARDS: Yes.
BEHAR: Then you had a breakup with Heather?
RICHARDS: Yes.
BEHAR: Uh-huh. Ok. That happens with girlfriends sometimes.
RICHARDS: Yes. We --
BEHAR: Was it over a man, though? Was it over --
RICHARDS: No, it was not over a man. We were not friends for very long. And we`re very different. And so, you know, just the friendship had ended months before he and I had ever gotten together. And we did not have an affair.
BEHAR: Ok. Did dating Sambora and the bad press you got, did that hurt you at all?
RICHARDS: Oh, yes.
BEHAR: It did?
RICHARDS: Yes. It was very difficult.
BEHAR: People thought you were a home wrecker?
RICHARDS: They thought I was a home wrecker. They thought I broke up a marriage. They thought that I -- I guess that`s part of being a home wrecker. Plus I had a very heated custody battle with an actor who was on a number-one sitcom so, combining all of that --
BEHAR: You mean Charlie?
RICHARDS: Yes, Charlie. It definitely affected my career. I couldn`t get a job. No one would even, you know, see me in a room. That was hard.
BEHAR: Do you think it`s harder on women than men? You have some guys -- Arnold Schwarzenegger`s bouncing back already. He`s got a new deal for a movie.
RICHARDS: I don`t know. In my situation, it was a few things going on, I think. And so it was hard for me to wrap my head around that my personal life could affect my career. In any other job I`d be able to leave my personal business at the door.
BEHAR: True. True.
RICHARDS: That really affected me. That was very, very hard.
BEHAR: Do you think you`ll get married again?
RICHARDS: I`d like to for sure. I`m not bitter about marriage.
BEHAR: Anybody on the horizon?
RICHARDS: I`ll never get divorced again.
BEHAR: You`ll never get divorced again?
RICHARDS: No, even if I hate his guts, I will just live down the street and that`s fine. I will not go through this again ever, ever.
BEHAR: I don`t blame you. All right.
Denise`s new memoir is "The Real Girl Next Door". Thanks for coming on, Denise.
RICHARDS: Thank you.
BEHAR: All right.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: For a man who sees himself as a prophet with all of the answers, FLDS cult leader Warren Jeffs asks an awful lot of questions. First, to believe that polygamy is legal, then to believe that having sex with minors is acceptable. And today in the Texas courtroom where he is on trial, he asked the judge to recuse herself.
Joining me to talk about it are Sam Brower, private investigator and author of "Prophet`s Prey: My Seven-Year Investigation into Warren Jeffs and the Fundamentalist Church of Latter-Day Saints." Plus Michael Watkiss, investigative reporter for Phoenix affiliate KTVK, who`s at the trial.
OK, guys. Jeff, Mike, let me ask you this. Jeffs asked the judge Barbara Walther -- not to be confused with my boss Barbara Walters -- to recuse herself, claiming that God wanted her removed and that God quote, "sent a crippling disease upon her, which shall take her life soon." How did the judge react to all that?
MICHAEL WATKISS, KTVK: The judge is showing the patience of Job. She knows that all eyes are watching and this matter will be appealed. The judge apparently did have some childhood disease that left one of her legs in a brace. And it really was seen by many of us in the court as one of the lowest blows we`ve seen, saying that basically that disease was the product of his God and that she would die soon.
A lot more veiled threats within these proclamations that he filed, his court motions today, just basically saying the judge is completely biased against FLDS men. They threw that out immediately and they did proceed with some of the prosecution`s case today. But just amid all kinds of sermonizing, ad nauseum objections, interruptions on the part of Mr. Jeffs. It continues to be one of the most bizarre spectacles I`ve ever seen.
BEHAR: Well, what do you expect, he`s Satan in a suit. You know? OK, Mike, a DNA expert testified today that DNA evidence proved with 99 percent certainty that Jeffs is the father of a child born to an underage girl he`s accused of sexually assaulting. Is that enough to convict him?
WATKISS: Well, I certainly think that`s very powerful and persuasive evidence. It was 99.99996 percent, so that`s four nines past the decimal point. In most courts of law, that would be very persuasive and powerful evidence for the one count that he fathered a child with the 15-year-old he is alleged to have raped. Of course we`re still awaiting the much- anticipated audiotape that Mr. Jeffs allegedly recorded while he was raping the 12-year-old.
But I think in the minds of most people sitting in that courtroom, they`ve made the case in the one -- the one instance that he had sex -- he violated, he attacked this 15-year-old girl, and they produced a child as a result.
BEHAR: OK, Sam, Jeffs said today that this trial is an attack on a religious society and that he has no protection of religious freedom. Is he crazy, or crazy like a fox? What do you think is his ultimate goal?
SAM BROWER, INVESTIGATED FLDS SECT: I think he`s both crazy and crazy like a fox. But he`s lucid. He -- he has always been that way. Certainly mental illness is a family trait on his mother`s side. Schizophrenia. And he also displays in my opinion lots of symptoms of bipolar disorder. And of course he`s a narcissistic sociopath, as well.
BEHAR: Right. Is he intelligent?
BROWER: He`s very lucid and very functional. And he`s --
BEHAR: He`s smart?
BROWER: He`s smart. And he walks that fine line between genius and insanity, if you know what I mean.
BEHAR: A lethal combination.
BROWER: Right. Right. And he`s -- you know, when nothing else works, he starts -- he and his followers -- I`ve caught it for years, Mike has caught it for years. They start using smear campaigns. They`ll make fun of people`s infirmities, like he did with Judge Walther today. They will send people out to smear people`s good names. They stop at nothing. When you can`t defend the case on its merits, when someone like Warren Jeffs knows that he`s cooked and he`s done for, then they start smearing people. And that`s what he`s been doing.
BEHAR: Right. And hiding behind God all the time. That`s another tactic of this type.
BROWER: And that is.
WATKISS: And hiding behind women.
BROWER: One of the few things he`s got --
BEHAR: What did you say, Mike?
WATKISS: And hiding behind women. In many ways, those children got sent back to the ranch, and they shouldn`t have because the FLDS community orchestrated a very well developed media campaign, trotted the women out, teary-eyed women in their pastel dresses, crying about their children. In many ways, there`s a lot of fine people there, but in many ways, many of these women are the biggest villains.
BEHAR: Yes.
WATKISS: Think nothing of trotting their daughters up to the prophet`s foot at 12 years old and saying, have at them. So these guys -- Sam`s right. They will use whatever tactic, they`ll hide behind their women. And now they`re hiding behind God.
BEHAR: Sam, what do you think of those women? Do you think they`re crazy also?
BROWER: No. I think they`ve been indoctrinated and they are what they are. Without those women, Warren wouldn`t have any victims. They`re the ones who take their little daughters up and raise them up and train them at the appropriate age, take them by the hand and place it in the hand of some old guy that`s decades older. And so the women at some point cross that line, as well, of being -- of changing from a victim to a perpetrator. And without those women, it wouldn`t be happening. So it`s -- it`s a -- something that is brought up through the culture. And that Warren has perfected and does really well.
BEHAR: Any chance they could all go to jail?
BROWER: You know, I keep hoping, and I`m waiting for some of the women to be prosecuted, because that would send the message out that it`s not going to be tolerated anywhere within that culture. And there`s plenty of culpability to go around, to the men, to the women. And so certainly the women need to -- to be prosecuted as well.
BEHAR: You know, Sam, let me ask you something. There`s a -- there`s a tape now -- Mike, you would know this. Prosecutors promised to play this audiotape of Jeffs allegedly sexually assaulting a 12-year-old girl. What do you know about this tape?
WATKISS: Well, it apparently was recorded actually during the sexual assault at the WFZ ranch. There are multiple voices as part of this doctrine. And I`m a cops-and-robbers reporter, I focus on the crimes. But apparently as part of their beliefs, these acts need to be witnessed. And there are other voices on the tape, it`s not just Mr. Jeffs and a 12-year- old girl. So it basically became sort of a spectator sport while Mr. Jeffs was allegedly raping a 12-year-old.
BEHAR: My God. This is --
BROWER: That tape was -- that tape was with Warren when he was arrested. It was presented at his first trial in Utah, and it was buried there. The judge said it would be too inflammatory to be used in trial in Utah. And now it`s five years later, it`s finally coming out. I think that was a horrible injustice back then. And finally after all these years, it`s coming out. And Warren was carrying it around with him like a trophy. I mean, so he could listen to it when -- when it suited him.
And so I`m just so glad that it`s finally coming out now. And it`s not going to be sealed. It`s not going to be buried. The world can see what it is and what he is.
BEHAR: Yes.
BROWER: Finally.
BEHAR: Can we just call him the rapist from now on instead of by his name? The DNA proves he`s a rapist. It`s an ipso facto. He`s a rapist. Let`s just call him that from now on, OK?
Now Mike, in the rapist`s sect, women are subordinate to men. But in this trial, the judge is a woman. Ten of the 12 jurors are women. How did they ever get that, and how much must that bother this rapist that he`s being judged by women?
WATKISS: Well, that`s a very profound question, Joy. And I think that -- I think all of our instincts, gut reactions to this, that this bodes very well for the prosecution, not so well for Mr. Jeffs. Clearly there is a great contempt on the part of Mr. Jeffs toward the judge, the reference to her infirmity in this alleged proclamation from God. And to see 10 women now passing judgment on him, I`m sure is galling to the utmost for Mr. Jeffs.
This is a guy who really has been, you know, the favored son of his prophet father, has gotten his way his -- his whole life. Most of these guys are hard scrabble farm boys. Jeffs grew up in a very affluent setting in urban Salt Lake City. He`s not a tough guy. He`s not very charismatic. He inherited a mantle of power from his father. And the speeches he`s giving, people are hearing for the first time. To me -- I`ve heard some of his sermons, these are stump speeches. He`s been casting himself as the persecuted people for many generations. But the bottom line is they`ve been marrying 9-year-olds, 10-year-olds, 11-year-olds, dating back as far as I know, and so, you know, that`s the reality.
BEHAR: It`s just a horror.
WATKISS: And the media has been -- the media has been complicit, because they haven`t told these stories. The media came in and was very sympathetic after the raid, and Texas felt the pressure and sent those kids back, and they shouldn`t have.
BEHAR: Yes. Let me ask you, you know, one of the things that he says the polygamy is his religious right. See, that`s the thing that drives me crazy. That it`s his religious right. It`s just a smokescreen to rape these young girls, isn`t it? Sam?
BROWER: Yes. Well, it`s -- it is. I mean, that`s his wild card. Every time something comes up that he doesn`t like, he blames it on being an unpopular religion or blames it on polygamy or whatever. The fact is, polygamy is the best thing that ever happened to him. They can -- he can use that to hide all of his criminal activity. And so -- the religious part, the polygamy part of it is just a smokescreen to hide the fact that he`s a child abuser.
BEHAR: It`s just bull. A child abuser and a rapist. OK. We`re going to watch him. I`m on this. I can`t stand this guy. He`s Satan. He`s like the devil. All right. Thanks very much. I know you guys are on it, too. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Well, it looks like the nation is not going to go into default, and we can continue to live our lives the way we always have -- underfinanced and overextended. Like stoned college students cramming for a final exam, it appears the White House and leaders of Congress came to agreement on the debt deal at the very last minute. And what happens when you cram? Everybody gets a C.
Here now to talk about the debt deal, the Bachmanns and the Murdoch empire is Frank Rich, writer at large for New York magazine. Hey, Frank.
FRANK RICH, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: Hi.
BEHAR: It`s so great to see you again. I was saying to you before, we miss you at the Times. But --
RICH: What can I say?
BEHAR: It`s New York magazine`s gain, I guess.
RICH: I hope so.
BEHAR: So this debt deal, which I won`t -- I`m not going to belabor it because it`s tedious, frankly. But I do want to know, did anybody win? Did anybody get any --
RICH: The Tea Party won.
BEHAR: The Tea Party won.
RICH: Yes, the Tea Party won because they showed that from a minority, in the House, they could essentially control everybody.
BEHAR: How did they do that? And what is wrong with the Democrats that they can be pushed around and bamboozled like that?
RICH: Everyone was pushed around and bamboozled.
BEHAR: Including Boehner.
RICH: Including Boehner and McConnell. Basically, they are afraid of them. The Republicans, the other Republicans are afraid of them, that`s clear, Boehner and McConnell.
BEHAR: Why?
RICH: Why? Because they feel that they could basically fight everything that they do, everything the establishment wants. So they want to throw them any carrots they can. And these guys, in some cases women, as we know, were essentially threatening to push the government to default.
And so they held -- as everyone had said, they held everyone hostage. Why the Democrats are pushed over, why Obama didn`t fight harder, that`s the big mystery --
BEHAR: His ratings are down. He`s having trouble. Do you think -- should he be seriously worried about 2012?
RICH: Yes. I think he should. Particularly if the economy continues to be paralyzed, which it sort of is. Growth is down to very little, unemployment as we know is up. There will be new figures this week. So what has he got to run on really? He`ll be blamed for this even though --
BEHAR: It`s not his fault.
RICH: Most of it is not his fault at all.
BEHAR: Yes.
RICH: But his positioning has been I`m the adult in the room, I`m the, you know, the mature person in Washington. That`s -- that`s nice. But is that who people want in a time of crisis?
BEHAR: He doesn`t fight with -- they`re bullies. And he should be fighting bullies. And understanding that. You can`t really reason with bullies. They`re going to do what they`re going to do.
RICH: Exactly. But he sort of likes to take the position that everyone is the way he is. It would be nice to live in that world, but they`re not.
BEHAR: Yes.
RICH: And so essentially he`s been rolled, and what good does -- it doesn`t do the country any good, because we actually need more stimulus, more government action to get money into people`s pocket --
BEHAR: Oh, that is anathema to these Republicans.
RICH: You can`t -- so that`s not happening. So he`s going to preside over an economy that`s going to not look good, with a very high unemployment rate, and he`s positioned as someone who`s sort of a nice guy who`s sort of sat around while Rome burned, I think.
BEHAR: But on the other side they have people like Michele Bachmann, who doesn`t really have a solution.
RICH: Oh, none of them have solutions --
BEHAR: No.
RICH: But look at someone like Mitt Romney, who`s a front-runner. Mitt Romney is like George Bush the first, he is your classic country club Republican. He`s not said a word during this entire debate --
BEHAR: Why?
RICH: Because he doesn`t want to be crucified for holding any position. So he can -- he`s now running around the country, appearing in front of abandoned factories as if he`s Tom Joad in the Grapes of Wrath, acting as if he`s this rabblerousing man of the people. He is shameless. In his private life, all he did was downsize companies and lay off workers. But he`s now running as this sort of New Deal liberal, they`re shameless. And Obama -- blaming it all on Obama. And he`s very clever. Obviously if Michele Bachmann got the nomination --
BEHAR: Let`s talk about her.
RICH: She`s not going to get the nomination.
BEHAR: You don`t think so?
RICH: I don`t -- I mean, you never know in that party, but I think it would be pretty far-fetched.
BEHAR: You know, her husband`s under fire for running that clinic, where you pray the gay away.
RICH: Yes, good luck with that.
BEHAR: I know, good luck with that. But do you think -- a lot of people are criticizing him for it and even implying he`s gay himself.
RICH: Yes, there has been a lot of --
BEHAR: There`s been a lot of that.
RICH: There has been a lot of that, particularly in places like Jon Stewart and Bill Maher. The truth is, that she co-owns that clinic. So if they practice policies that are demeaning and hurtful to people and have been denounced by the American Psychiatric Association and other mental health groups, she`s responsible. She`s a co-owner. She`s not just a spouse, it`s the business they share, this Christian counseling --
BEHAR: So when she says don`t go after the husband, you know, leave the family alone, she`s involved in that also, so it`s not--
RICH: Yes, that`s nonsense. Look, there are legitimate times when you shouldn`t go after a spouse, if a spouse is really in private life. This guy and she ran a business. And what if it were a meat-packing business and they had contaminated food and they co-owned it? Would -- that would certainly be an issue.
BEHAR: Are you saying they`re contaminating people`s minds?
RICH: If they were effectual -- I don`t think they were -- look at that -- you know, you know, he really makes, you know, a Fuller Brush man look like Albert Schweitzer. He`s really sort of low down on the cultural totem poll.
BEHAR: I used to love the Fuller Brush man --
(CROSSTALK)
RICH: I know, it`s sort of a dated reference. I don`t know where it came from. It popped into my head.
BEHAR: It`s like an old, old reference.
RICH: I know, no one even knows what a Fuller brush is.
BEHAR: I do. When I was a kid, they -- the Fuller brush used to come to my house and say, act like Jerry Lewis. That was my history with the Fuller brush man.
RICH: Now I understand everything.
BEHAR: (inaudible) Jerry Lewis.
OK, stay right there, Frank, we have much more to talk about after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with New York magazine writer Frank Rich.
So now the phone hacking scandal of the Murdoch empire.
RICH: Right.
BEHAR: What do you think?
RICH: Well, I think that we`re deluding ourselves if we think the whole Murdoch culture has not spread to America. We`re reading all this sort of exotic stuff about having British police on the payroll. Bernie Kerik was on the Murdoch payroll. He had a huge advance from Harper Collins. And you know, the piece I`ve written in the New Yorker that`s out today, I talk about the bullying things that they do. It`s not just about politics. It`s not just about Fox being right-wing. It`s about them going after people who are personal enemies, Bill O`Reilly having producers stalk people on the street.
BEHAR: Bill O`Reilly has people stalking people?
RICH: Yes, he has producers stalking people to try to get them on camera and be hostile to them. Not famous people usually. In my case a few years ago, when I made the incredible judgment, controversial judgment that Mel Gibson might be anti-Semitic, shocking --
BEHAR: What a shock. What kind of man says that?
RICH: I know. I know. Bill O`Reilly and a chum of his attacked me six nights on his show, and you know, got security threats, had to get the paper involved.
BEHAR: Really?
RICH: Yes. And so it`s a really strange organization. It`s a publicly traded company, but unlike say Time Warner, it`s really controlled by a special tier of stock that`s owned by one family that has a pretty sorry track record.
BEHAR: It`s more dangerous than it even looks to people.
RICH: Yes, people -- liberals love to criticize Fox because it`s not fair and balanced and all that. They like to criticize the Post because it`s very right wing. Forget about the politics. This is about power and money, punishing enemies that they don`t like, for reasons that could be personal or business, not just political.
BEHAR: Didn`t they put something on Page 6 about you, a blind item?
RICH: They put a blind item that I left my wife about 10 years ago. And I`m a minor figure in this. Look when Glenn Beck was there. He went after a sociologist at Cunie (ph) in New York who was almost 80, about an article that she`d written in 1966 about poverty, and she got death threats, Frances Fox Piven. That abortion doctor was attacked 29 times.
BEHAR: They`re thugs.
RICH: Yes. It`s thuggery. And I think this scandal is going to play out like Watergate for a couple of years. We`ll see where all of it lands in this country, not just--
BEHAR: A lot of people are taking great pleasure from this, I must say.
RICH: Really?
BEHAR: Watching this denouement.
RICH: Oh, and it`s also so sleazy, involves murdered children, parenting -- it`s disgusting.
BEHAR: And the bodies are floating by, right?
RICH: Exactly.
BEHAR: All right, Frank, thanks very much.
RICH: Thank you.
BEHAR: It`s always a pleasure to see you.
BEHAR: You know, I really want to sign off with these, because Lady Gaga was on "The View" today and she gave these to me. So I`d just like to say, thank you all for watching. Good night, everybody.
Before we go, don`t forget CNN and HLN are the very first news networks in the United States to stream 24-hour news online and on mobile, which means even if you`re not sitting in front of a TV, you can watch live, including breaking news. Check out CNN.com/video to find out how.
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