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Joy Behar Page
Life After a Cult; `I Married a Mobster`
Aired August 02, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, as new details emerge in the Warren Jeffs underage polygamy trial, jurors are left gasping with astonishment at pictures of Jeffs kissing and cuddling a 12-year-old girl. We`ll have the latest
Plus what`s it like to be married to a cold-blooded killer? Joy talks with the stars of the fascinating docu-series, "I Married a Mobster".
Then actress Helen Mirren beats out J Lo to win the "Body of the Year" poll. So is 66 the new sexy? That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: I would like to start tonight with a story that just ticks me off.
The trial of polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs took a grotesque turn today when graphic audiotapes were played of this rapist with two underage girls. Joining me with the details is Christi Paul, "In Session" anchor, who was at the trial; Christi tell me about these audio recordings.
CHRISTI PAUL, ANCHOR, "IN SESSION": Well, they`re just starting them now, Joy. And what`s happening is the jury is able to put on headphones as is the prosecution and a couple of other people. But it will be something that is heard throughout the courtroom.
We understand there are several different audiotapes to listen to. So the first we believe is coming from a "Heavenly Session" apparently as it was called, "Training to Ladies", some of these are the titles of the audiotapes or the audio files that they`re going to listen to. And the first one is in December of `04. That is not going to be the one that I think people are waiting to hear.
The one that they`re waiting for is the alleged sexual assault against the 12-year-old that would happen in August. And as we understand it, it wasn`t just he and -- it wasn`t just him and the 12-year-old, there are other people in this room. So we anticipate we could hear that later today.
We know this first "Heavenly Session" is a two-hour, 40-minute audio recording, but they`re just hearing a portion of it.
BEHAR: So the tape of him raping a 12-year-old girl is heard by other people in the room? There are other people while this is going on?
PAUL: Yes, apparently, we`ve been told there are other people in the room as this is happening. So to be quite honest with you, none of us in this courtroom are really sure exactly what we`re going to hear.
We did see transcripts today , though, that are absolutely bizarre. They`re called "Revelations Given to President Warren Jeffs". These are some of his private transcripts. And whenever they talked about these priesthood records that he wrote, he get really agitated. And he gets up and he tries to object. And they start talking over each other, but he talked about -- we believe they were talking about "heavenly sessions" or private training that included group sex.
These were transcripts written or dictated by his wife, Naomi, his favorite wife, who by the way is also a sister to the 12-year-old victim in this case.
BEHAR: Oh, my God.
PAUL: And they talked about, yes, they talked about -- I just want to give you a raw reading here. One of the things that was read was, "You were taken into the heavenly session as a few of your ladies were in here around midnight." then she`d write something like, "You told me to call in ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, and she`s call off six or seven different ladies` names. And we`re just all interpreting that as group sex, we think, at this point. It`s disturbing.
BEHAR: It`s just horrifying. It`s disgusting. Thanks very much Christi.
Now some members -- thank you -- of Warren Jeffs` polygamist sect do escape, but can they ever actually live normal lives after this? I want to bring in Rick Ross, a cult expert who has deprogrammed FLDS members, plus Kathy Jo Nicholson, former member of Jeffs` polygamist sect. Kathy Jo, you knew Jeffs -- I call him the rapist because the DNA matched the girl that he raped. So he`s the rapist as far as I`m concerned. Are you surprised at what`s on these tape recordings?
KATHY JO NICHOLSON, FORMER MEMBER OF FLDS: First, Joy, I agree with you. Absolutely, rapist in every sense of the word; mind, body, and soul. So I`ll agree with you. The rapist. As far as the tapes, I am not familiar -- I have not tuned in today about the tapes, recently I guess they just released.
But as far as the group sessions that Christi was referring to, I have -- I`m privy to some of the journal entries made by Naomi, his favorite wife, when he was on the lam, when he was on the top 10 most wanted list. And they spoke a lot about group sessions. They were training sessions while they were on the road.
They would do things -- he would have the ladies come in and watch pornographic material, to show them that that wasn`t right. They would go to gay strip clubs or bars --
BEHAR: Gay strip clubs?
NICHOLSON: Yes, that`s what was written in the journal entries that I saw.
BEHAR: That`s interesting. Why gay strip clubs?
NICHOLSON: I don`t know. He talked a lot about Boston.
BEHAR: Boston, uh-huh. What do you make of that?
RICK ROSS, CULT EXPERT: Well, Warren Jeffs apparently had all kinds of predilections toward sexual abuse both with men and with women, or I should say children and that`s really the issue with this group. They have a right to believe whatever they want, but they don`t have the right to do whatever they wish in the name of their beliefs.
And I think that Warren Jeffs is simply a pedophile who uses religion as his shield for any kind of meaningful accountability.
BEHAR: Absolutely. He`s just a pervert. You know, he`s hiding behind religion. Do many people escape from this guy? I mean, she has escaped.
ROSS: You know, joy, this particular group is almost a century old. And there are about 50,000 polygamists in North America and Mexico, and this group is about 20 percent of that total. And there are people that leave. There are a lot of boys that get kicked out because --
BEHAR: The lost boys.
ROSS: The lost boys, because they want more women for individual men --
BEHAR: Yes, for the major perverts.
ROSS: They have a surplus of boys, so they throw them out. The people who leave have enormous difficulties adjusting because all their family, their friends, everything they know is back in the group. And they come out into a world they have no concept about, almost like alien beings from outer space.
BEHAR: Yes.
ROSS: And they have no support system, they have no friends. It`s a very tough, tough time for them to adjust to getting out into the world.
BEHAR: When you look at the pictures that they`re showing, you know, there`s a sort of a camaraderie with the girls, with each other. So that`s probably difficult because you have to leave your friends, even though you know it`s -- Kathy Jo, how did you escape, by the way, Kathy?
NICHOLSON: When I was 18, I left with a male friend of mine, which was against the rules. We had consorting in private and actually supported each other and asked a lot of questions of others, of people in authority over us and were not given answers and were reprimanded.
Then we started asking each other questions and back and forth and decided this does not make sense. We were able to support each other. I left when I was 18. But Colt and I -- I moved to California in 1991 a couple of years later.
BEHAR: Did you have trouble adjusting outside?
NICHOLSON: So much.
BEHAR: So much trouble. Did you get therapy or something, anything to help you?
NICHOLSON: When he was speaking about the lost boys, I -- my little brother who is now in Asheville, North Carolina, in his -- going his senior year of college, I`m so proud of him. He became a lost boy. And at that time I was living with my husband in Portland, Maine.
And when he became -- when I got the call from my mom that he was going to be kicked out, he was able to come and live with us at about 13. And he just turned 14 while he was with us.
And then about five months later, my mom said, well, that`s my baby, and my other girl`s out there, and my girls who are here and are choosing to stay here. That`s their choice. And she came and joined us about five months later.
BEHAR: What about the rest of the family? The other girls?
NICHOLSON: They`re all back there.
BEHAR: They`re still there.
NICHOLSON: And that`s just very painful to talk about.
BEHAR: Do they not want to leave?
NICHOLSON: I don`t have any contact with them. I was written a formal notice that that would stop once I started speaking with the media. But my son, my 15-year-old asked me the other day, well, if Warren gets put in jail and convicted, will we be able to talk to Auntie Rachel and so on. And I said, you know, honey, they`ve been in it all their lives, and they`d be reaching out to us now. I don`t think -- I don`t think that it will change anything if Warren is convicted.
BEHAR: It might be too late for them, Rick.
ROSS: Well, it`s so hard for them to imagine a life outside of the group. You have to understand, Joy, these children are raised from their earliest recollection to accept what we regard as bizarre as totally normal.
And when people leave the group, the communication is severed because what these groups do -- and it`s very cult-like -- is they control all communication, all information in a kind of world within our world that`s completely cut off.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I still can`t imagine, though, when you`re a child being raped by a grown man, that you don`t -- the human nature is to react to that.
ROSS: The children are raised to believe that this is a holy act. And it`s seen as a ritual of their religion rather than rape.
NICHOLSON: These children grow up to be mothers though and they knew it didn`t feel good when they were a child. They know -- they`re an adult now, and they`re pimping their children out. It doesn`t feel good. Everyone has a moral compass --
BEHAR: Thank you.
NICHOLSON: -- except for Warren, the rapist.
BEHAR: It`s a disgrace really that these women are allowing this to happen. And she`s furious, and I don`t blame you.
I really -- this story makes my hair stand up straight. It`s so upsetting to me that all these young kids are being attacked by these predatory males. It`s horrifying. I want the FBI in there, I want them all arrested.
ROSS: Well, I think is -- I think Jeffs is going to face serious prison time now.
BEHAR: Good. All right, thank you guys very much. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Helen Mirren, age 66, has won the title of "Body of the Year" in a new poll done by the gym L.A. Fitness. She was also named sexiest, Helen, beating out Helen Thomas.
Here to discuss this and other pop culture stories in the news are actress Allison Janney, star of the upcoming film "The Help"; comedian Chuck Nice; and Rob Shuter, AOL`s PopEater columnist.
Ok, Rob, she`s beautiful, Rob. But do you really think she has a better body than Elle MacPherson and Jennifer Lopez because that`s who she beat.
ROB SHUTER, COLUMNIST, AOL`S POPEATER: I think that this is really smart marketing. To put somebody at the top of this poll like an Angelina Jolie, we probably wouldn`t be talking about it as much as what we are today. This is just something very clever.
BEHAR: Are you saying they manipulated the poll?
SHUTER: I`m saying that that might have happened.
BEHAR: Really? L.A. Fitness, a gym in Los Angeles --
(CROSSTALK)
CHUCK NICE, COMEDIAN: A gym in Los Angeles --
BEHAR: Would make something up? I cannot believe that.
NICE: You know, I`ve got to agree with the poll. I look at Helen Mirren. I think she is a gorgeous woman. She`s not Dame Helen Mirren, it`s more like damn Helen Mirren. And I agree with the poll.
BEHAR: She looks great.
NICE: She looks fantastic. And I wouldn`t -- I wouldn`t have a problem tossing her around for a minute.
SHUTER: Ooh.
ALLISON JANNEY, ACTRESS: Excuse me.
NICE: I`m just putting that out there, Helen Mirren.
JANNEY: Yes, I do not -- I do not want to toss her around, but I do - - I am so grateful that they have someone of her age as -- for being put out there for having a great body. It gives me hope. I`m not her age yet, but I still want to be considered a sexy, viable woman --
NICE: Consider that done, Allison. You`re tossed around next.
BEHAR: So you have to know that Allison Janney did flash her boobs in a movie called "Life During Wartime."
JANNEY: I did.
NICE: Ok, note to self: DVD purchase.
JANNEY: I am so -- I got talked into -- yes, well. That was very challenging. I kept saying -- I was like trying to put my arms up, can I - - when it -- oh but I just had to let them be. And obviously I have not had enhancements there. I asked for them digitally afterwards.
BEHAR: Did they say yes?
JANNEY: Well, I went in with the guys to do it.
BEHAR: Yes.
JANNEY: And they said, first of all, we`ve never had the actress in the room as we try do this. And -- and I said, well, let`s get -- let`s get it done. And we -- and we tried. And then it wasn`t -- they just kept looking worse and worse. I said, "Leave them the way they are."
BEHAR: So you know, Chuck or Rob, really, Pippa Middleton, the British sister, she -- she was on the list. She was number eight.
SHUTER: Yes. She`s -- she`s popular --
BEHAR: She`s outshined her sister. I`m sorry.
SHUTER: Absolutely, since the minute she got out of that carriage. The whole world has been talking about Pippa. Pippa is probably hotter than Kate. And even in Britain, Pippa mania is at a peak. We cannot get enough of this girl.
BEHAR: But you know what, I remember when Margaret, Princess Margaret was hotter than Elizabeth, too. It`s always the way. The one who`s going to be Queen has to be --
JANNEY: Yes, they can`t say that about Kate now.
BEHAR: No.
NICE: Right, she`s married. She`s married and in line for the throne.
BEHAR: Exactly.
NICE: I mean, you can`t lust after a woman like that.
BEHAR: No.
NICE: Her younger sister, I`m in.
BEHAR: That`s what Prince Phillip thought also.
NICE: Oh. Yes.
BEHAR: You know him. He`s a dog.
Simon Cowell made the cut at number ten. I mean, so does that de- legitimatized the list right there, Simon Cowell?
SHUTER: I think the whole list is a little dodgy. But it`s fun to look at this. And it`s fun to look at some of these people -- and especially Helen, and realize that we can all be gorgeous at any age.
BEHAR: Yes, ok.
JANNEY: Yes, exactly.
NICE: I mean, when you look at Simon Cowell, quite frankly, his boobs are almost as nice as Pippa Middleton.
BEHAR: But not as nice as Allison Janney.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Linda Evangelista is demanding a what whopping $46,000 a month in child support claiming her French billionaire baby daddy, whatever his name is, hasn`t paid a cent to their 4-year-old son, Augustine.
Now, she wants $46,000 a month which we figured out comes to -- if she -- if he pays until the child is 18-years-old, would come to $7,728,000, which is .0006 percent of his overall wealth.
SHUTER: That`s the big point here, because he`s worth billions -- billions. So it does sound like a huge figure, but when you do the percentages.
JANNEY: Yes.
BEHAR: Right.
SHUTER: It`s actually a rather reasonable request.
BEHAR: It`s nothing to him.
SHUTER: That`s odd.
NICE: All I know is I got to get me some money. This guy looks like Barney Rubble, and he has had Linda Evangelista and is now married to Salma Hayek. I got to make some money.
BEHAR: It`s all about the money, isn`t it?
NICE: That`s what it`s about.
BEHAR: Women are so shallow.
NICE: Not going to say shallow. I`m going to call that smart. If he asked me to marry him, I`d say yes.
BEHAR: Do we -- we have a picture of this guy? Henri Penault.
NICE: Yes, Henri Penault --
BEHAR: We call him Petite Penault because you know --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well, you know, he`s -- we don`t know. I made that up -- look at him. He`s hideous.
JANNEY: He doesn`t look so bad.
NICE: No.
BEHAR: Do you want to borrow my glasses? Try these glasses on. So he also has a child, a 3-year-old daughter, Valentina.
NICE: Yes.
BEHAR: With Salma Hayek. And he lavishes money and praise on this child. That`s not fair, in my opinion.
JANNEY: No, it`s not fair at all.
BEHAR: He`s not married to Linda Evangelista. He never was.
NICE: Yes.
JANNEY: Oh, I didn`t know that.
BEHAR: Yes.
NICE: Yes but you know, it`s not about Linda, it`s about the child.
JANNEY: Yes.
NICE: And as far as I`m concerned, if you don`t pay a cent of child support and you`re worth $11.5 billion.
BEHAR: Yes.
NICE: If I were the judge I would double the judgment. You get $92,000 a month. That`s what you get.
BEHAR: Well, this is what she wants it for -- round-the-clock nannies, gun-toting drivers for the kid.
NICE: Right.
BEHAR: I guess she has to protect the kid from something, why?
SHUTER: Well, from kidnapping I guess. Because --
(CROSSTALK)
NICE: Yes, he`s a billionaire.
BEHAR: Well, he won`t be kidnapped if she`s not getting the money.
NICE: That`s true.
BEHAR: And a monthly vacation allowance. Who goes on a vacation every month?
NICE: This kid does apparently. He`s -- he`s a very stressed out kid. His father is a billionaire. It`s very tough on him. He needs rest and relaxation.
JANNEY: She probably had to come up with -- they probably said you have to make an itemized list of why -- you know, justify this amount. She probably had to come up with -- she probably doesn`t really need all those things. She just came up with them to --
BEHAR: Right. Right.
NICE: What she should have done is put one item in the whole list -- cocaine. My son has a serious coke habit.
BEHAR: Don`t start that rumor.
Ok. We`ll have more pop culture on the way. Sit tight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my lovely panel. In her first interview since she announced her separation from Marc Anthony, Jennifer Lopez told "Vanity Fair" she loved herself enough to walk away from the marriage explaining the following. "To understand that a person is not good for you or that that person is not treating you in the right way or that he is not doing the right thing for himself, if I stay, then I am not doing the right thing for me."
First of all, that`s a run-on sentence. Secondly, I have no idea what you`re talking about, Jennifer. Do you?
NICE: No.
BEHAR: Do you know what she`s talking about?
NICE: I think she`s trying to spin this in a way to say in a subtle fashion it`s his fault. I think that`s what she`s trying to do there. She`s going in a very roundabout way like it`s not me, it`s him. That`s really what she`s saying.
BEHAR: "And I wanted to do what was right." She also said she left the marriage because she loves herself. Is it possible to love yourself too much?
NICE: Probably the problem in the marriage was that she loves herself like maybe just a little too much.
BEHAR: Yes.
SHUTER: What`s surprising about the statement, though, is someone that`s as controlling as J Lo, someone that thinks things through like J Lo would issue a statement like this.
BEHAR: That Marc is controlling. She says he`s controlling.
SHUTER: Her statements are much more -- what`s the word I`m looking for -- much more carefully put together. This really is a very odd statement. It really doesn`t say very much. I thought the statement would be tighter, more to the point. It sounds like they sort of caught her a little bit off guard.
BEHAR: But Allison, you were in a movie with her.
JANNEY: I was in a movie with Marc Anthony --
BEHAR: With Marc.
JANNEY: -- a movie called "Big Night". And I just adore him. I know him -- I don`t know him really well, but the time I spent with him on that movie, I just love him. He`s a charming, wonderful, sweet man.
BEHAR: I`ve read that he`s nice.
JANNEY: And I just saw them both recently at a party in Hollywood. I don`t -- I can`t remember what it was for because I usually don`t go to those things. And I saw him and met her for the first time. But I didn`t get a --
BEHAR: Was there trouble in paradise?
JANNEY: I didn`t get much of a feeling for her. I knew him so we talked.
BEHAR: This is her third marriage, and she`s pushing 40 now. Maybe you have to say to yourself, maybe she has issues with relationships. Is that possible? Or am I stretching this?
NICE: You know, you`re -- you`re right on point. When you get married and you keep going through the same thing -- my wife put it to me this way -- you should look in the mirror because that`s where the problem is.
SHUTER: She`s a very complex girl. I used to work for J Lo. And she`s tricky. She`s not the easiest person to work for --
BEHAR: What are you saying, Rob?
SHUTER: I`m saying --
BEHAR: Uh-oh.
NICE: What do you mean tricky? Tricky like the Trix rabbit or --
BEHAR: What do you mean tricky?
SHUTER: I would say that Jennifer needs to love herself as she said in the statement.
BEHAR: She needs to love herself.
SHUTER: Yes.
BEHAR: She does love herself.
SHUTER: There`s the answer.
NICE: Ok. Are we talking about masturbation? I mean -- are we --
BEHAR: No, no.
NICE: Rob, what`s happening? I`m missing something.
BEHAR: He`s not. I think we should fix her up George Lopez. She doesn`t have to change her name.
JANNEY: She was just voted the sexiest person in "People" magazine -- most beautiful person.
SHUTER: The most beautiful person. She`s absolutely stunning. She almost looks like an avatar. She doesn`t look beautiful, she`s so different.
NICE: Beautiful.
BEHAR: She`s not an actress, she`s an avatar, but she`s tricky. Remember that.
NICE: She`s a tricky avatar.
BEHAR: Thank you, guys. Check out Allison Janney in "The Help" in theaters August 10.
Up next, what happens when you`re married to a mobster? What`s it to you?
We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Marriage can be hard enough without adding in murder, FBI wiretapping, drugs, and mob hits. I hate when that happens. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everyone feared him. To me, I couldn`t understand it because he was like a sweetheart. I mean, he did everything -- I mean, he was great. Caring, giving to those he loved. But if you did him wrong, he would kill you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: In the documentary series "I Married a Mobster," wives and daughters break the code of silence and share their stories of mob life.
Here with me now are some of the women featured in Investigation Discovery`s "I Married a Mobster." Linda Schiro with her daughter Linda Scarpa, and Andrea Giovino with her daughter Brittany. Welcome to the show.
I`m going to call you big Linda and little Linda. OK? So big Linda, you met Greg Scarpa, who was a Colombo crime family captain, high up on the chain, right?
LINDA SCHIRO, WIFE OF MOBSTER GREG SCARPA: Yes.
BEHAR: When you were just 17 years old.
SCHIRO: 17. Right.
BEHAR: Yes. Did you know what he was doing for a living?
SCHIRO: I grew up in a neighborhood with all gangsters, and so when I met Greg, at first I didn`t know because he was different. He was very classy and --
BEHAR: Handsome?
SCHIRO: Very handsome, yes. And then after we dated a couple of times, then I realized --
BEHAR: Then you realized what he was up to. Where did you grow up? What`s the neighborhood?
SCHIRO: Bensonhurst.
BEHAR: Oh, Bensonhurst. So not everyone was a mobster. Just--
SCHIRO: They were --
BEHAR: Everybody?
SCHIRO: In my neighborhood, they were all mobsters.
BEHAR: Really? The whole neighborhood?
SCHIRO: The whole neighborhood.
BEHAR: Really, so--
SCHIRO: I mean, not every house, but I mean.
BEHAR: A lot.
SCHIRO: A lot. They had a pool room there, where all the gangsters - - my grandmother used to run craps games in the back--
BEHAR: Grandma was a craps games dealer?
SCHIRO: She used to run crap games in her back of her, you know, in her basement. So I took it as say I grew up with them.
BEHAR: Yeah. So tell me about the first time you saw Greg do a hit. When he first killed somebody.
SCHIRO: We were -- we were at the house, and he says, take a ride with me, I have to meet somebody. So I got in the car with him. And we went to meet this person. He was supposed to -- in the parking lot. And he told me, just wait in the car. And he was supposed to get stamps, you know, from the guy. Not mailing stamps, stamps -- and what happened was--
BEHAR: Regular stamps? Mailing -- not mailing stamps?
SCHIRO: No. In other words, worth -- they were worth money.
BEHAR: Oh, like a collector`s stamps?
SCHIRO: Collectors.
BEHAR: I see.
SCHIRO: And what happened was I seen him get in the car, you know, and he put his arm around the guy. And all of a sudden --
BEHAR: He shot him?
SCHIRO: He shot him.
BEHAR: So were you --
SCHIRO: He took the stamps, too.
BEHAR: He took the stamps.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Leave the stamps, take the --
SCHIRO: No, he took the stamps.
BEHAR: He took the stamps. So that must have shocking -- how old were you then?
SCHIRO: Just around 17.
BEHAR: Yes. So weren`t you shocked? Didn`t you say, my God, I`m with a murder, someone who would kill somebody?
SCHIRO: No.
BEHAR: Not at all?
SCHIRO: Nuh-uh.
BEHAR: You didn`t have any reaction like that? No?
SCHIRO: No, I just --
BEHAR: You were like, let`s go for pizza?
SCHIRO: It was like normal. Yes. Then we went -- we did go out and eat dinner after that. Yes.
BEHAR: OK. All right. That`s odd. I mean, that a young girl would react that way, I think. But I guess you were just sort of raised that way or something.
SCHIRO: It`s not that I was raised -- I told you, I grew up knowing them.
And you know--
BEHAR: I can see crap games -- you know, I grew up with bookies and thing like that. But murder, no. That`s -- that`s stretched, murder. That`s hard to watch someone get murdered, I think.
SCHIRO: It`s hard, but, you know --
BEHAR: It didn`t phase you?
SCHIRO: Didn`t phase me.
BEHAR: OK. Then Greg told you he had this huge secret. What was the secret?
SCHIRO: Yes, we were having dinner one night, and he told me, I have something to talk to you about. And he said that he does work with the FBI.
BEHAR: He works with the FBI?
SCHIRO: Right.
BEHAR: What did he do for the FBI?
SCHIRO: He did different things for them. In fact, one thing that he told me -- one thing that I went with him was the Mississippi -- J. Edgar Hoover asked for Greg Scarpa to go down to Mississippi to find three bodies, because Hoover was getting a lot of pressure.
BEHAR: To find the bodies.
SCHIRO: To find the bodies.
BEHAR: In the `60s, Andrew Goodman, and the boys who went down to change the -- to help black people down there.
SCHIRO: So he was getting pressured. So the only one he knew would find the bodies would be Greg Scarpa. And Greg told me, come on, we`ll go shopping, get yourself some outfits, which we did. And then we left for Mississippi.
BEHAR: And you went down to Mississippi, and he found the bodies?
SCHIRO: He found the bodies.
BEHAR: He did?
SCHIRO: Yes.
BEHAR: OK. So he was an FBI informant or no?
SCHIRO: He wasn`t an informant.
BEHAR: They just used him for this particular thing.
SCHIRO: He knew a lot. Yes, plus he utilized --
BEHAR: They utilized him --
SCHIRO: -- a friend of -- no.
BEHAR: Somebody else?
SCHIRO: He had a friend in the FBI, too, who he didn`t -- he informed on no one, but he did utilize the information they gave him.
BEHAR: I see. OK. So he wasn`t a rat.
SCHIRO: No, he wasn`t a rat.
BEHAR: OK, Andrea, you became involved with a few mobsters.
ANDREA GIOVINO, FEATURED ON "I MARRIED A MOBSTER": I did.
BEHAR: Why were you attracted to mob guys?
A. GIOVINO: I think I was attracted to mob guys primarily because like Linda said, the area I came from, that`s most of the guys that were in that neighborhood, same type of area. So -- and I think for me looking back today, Joy, I had a very low self-esteem then. I did not --
BEHAR: How old were you?
A. GIOVINO: I was like 16, 17 when I started--
BEHAR: You were kids, both of you.
A. GIOVINO: I was a kid. Yes. But I think that for me, looking back, when you don`t have an education and you don`t feel good about yourself, and I didn`t have a good, strong sense of myself, I think I felt comfortable with those types of personalities because that was where I could be me. I didn`t fit in with other people.
BEHAR: Do you think that you would have responded like Mrs. Schiro here, big Linda I call her, the way she did to her husband killing somebody?
A. GIOVINO: No, I don`t think I would have responded like that. I think it would have been very devastating for me.
BEHAR: You think so?
A. GIOVINO: Extremely devastating. You`re talking about a body. A human being. I can`t even think --
BEHAR: So you never witnessed a murder?
A. GIOVINO: No, I only knew of murders. But I`ve not ever witnessed a murder. I can`t even see -- I ran over a cat, and I couldn`t get out of bed. I mean, no. To me --
BEHAR: So you were married to a guy named John Fogerty.
A. GIOVINO: Yes.
BEHAR: And what did he do? Was he high up in the Colombo chain or something?
A. GIOVINO: John was more of a freelancer. He wasn`t really connected-connected, where there`s a lot of guys where you have organized crime families, the five families, and sometimes they strive out and take others like Irish guys or tough, you know, Irish guys to go out and do a piece of work for them, because they don`t want to use within their own network, so it doesn`t leak out. So he was pretty much connected into organized crime families, but a freelancer.
BEHAR: Uh-huh. A freelancer.
SCHIRO: Yes, because Fogerty, he couldn`t be in the mob --
A. GIOVINO: No, because he wasn`t --
(CROSSTALK)
SCHIRO: Not Italian, so they wouldn`t allow that.
A. GIOVINO: No, no.
BEHAR: But then you became a mobster yourself.
A. GIOVINO: Yes, yes, I did. That`s because I was around these guys my whole life, so I had a lot of respect in the streets. You know, I was with someone that was a captain. And I was with him for quite a few years, and then I hung out with John Gotti for a long time.
BEHAR: See, I`ve never heard of a woman being, you know, a mobster.
A. GIOVINO: Well, I don`t want to say a mobster, Joy, as much as what happened is that -- I`m not going to say a mobster as much as I went ahead, and when there was money owed out on the streets and my husband went away, I just knew how to go claim that money back, and then not just claim the money back, take the money and roll it over. And, you know, lend it out to make the money build.
But when I was arrested, I was actually arrested on giving instructions through DEA, like I gave instructions to, you know, for guys that were connected.
SCHIRO: But mostly yours was drug business, wasn`t it?
A. GIOVINO: Yes, yes, yes.
BEHAR: Oh, you were in drugs?
A. GIOVINO: Yes, yes.
SCHIRO: Drugs. Yes, that`s different than --
A. GIOVINO: Drugs. Well, it`s not really different. It`s -- they`re involved in everything.
BEHAR: What kind of drugs?
SCHIRO: They`re involved in everything, but I`m saying for you to be doing it --
A. GIOVINO: No, I didn`t do drugs -- I didn`t--
SCHIRO: No, you to be dealing drugs and--
A. GIOVINO: I wasn`t doing--
SCHIRO: -- and collecting money for them --
A. GIOVINO: I wasn`t doing that. You`re misconstruing what I am saying --
(CROSSTALK)
A. GIOVINO: It was money, no--
SCHIRO: She was selling drugs.
A. GIOVINO: No, I wasn`t selling drugs.
SCHIRO: I thought you just said that.
A. GIOVINO: No, I was arrested for -- I was arrested for putting money up. I was the bank.
BEHAR: Yes.
A. GIOVINO: And then that money went to drug deals. I never sold drugs, I never was party to drugs.
SCHIRO: So you were indirectly associated with drugs.
A. GIOVINO: I was the bank. Right. So when I got arrested, I got arrested for illegal conspiracy, you know, conspiring part of the problem. Right.
BEHAR: You were part of the problem.
A. GIOVINO: Right. Because you`re putting the money up, right.
BEHAR: We have to take a break. We`ll continue this in just a minute. I want to hear from the daughters.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I got a call 6:00 in the morning, and they said, DEA, open the door or we`re going to bang it in.
A. GIOVINO: I look back, and I think about that day -- that was the worst day of my life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Andrea`s whole crew is arrested.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That was a look at "I Married a Mobster." And I`m back with the women featured in that series.
Before I get to your daughters, I want to ask the two of you, you weren`t scared in all this mob violence and all of this, were you scared?
SCHIRO: No.
BEHAR: You were not scared? How about you?
A. GIOVINO: No, no.
BEHAR: You were never scared that somebody would take out a hit on you, for example?
A. GIOVINO: No.
BEHAR: Or that your husband would get killed?
SCHIRO: No, I was never scared of that.
A. GIOVINO: No.
SCHIRO: Because I knew -- I felt him to be like the power, so much power he had, that he was -- and he was so strong, he was invincible, and I felt safe and very secure with him.
BEHAR: OK, now little Linda -- I have to do this because otherwise I don`t know one from the other. OK, last time you were on with me, you talked about your father, Greg Scarpa, and when did you figure out that he was a mobster? Your mother didn`t get it right away, but she got it pretty quickly. How long did it take you?
LINDA SCARPA, DAUGHTER OF MOBSTER GREG SCARPA: I was a teenager.
BEHAR: So you didn`t know in your years that you were growing up that your father was part of the Colombo family?
SCARPA: No, I didn`t know up until teenage years.
BEHAR: What goes through your mind when you hear your mother say that she did not react to the mob hit?
SCARPA: No, I don`t get it. But--
BEHAR: You don`t get it.
SCARPA: No. Me and my mother don`t see eye to eye on the whole mob thing. But that`s my mother. My mother has been with him since she was 17 years old and she only knew that life. She only knew everything that he taught her.
BEHAR: Right. So you think she was brainwashed?
SCARPA: I don`t think she was brainwashed. I just think that she was trained -- trained to live a certain way.
BEHAR: Your mother doesn`t appreciate what you`re saying right now. You don`t feel you were trained?
SCHIRO: No, I grew, you know, I met Greg and --
SCARPA: Trained even before my father. From my grandmother.
SCHIRO: When he had -- Greg was -- when he was home, a normal father. And she had a normal life because her and my son both went to Catholic school, graduated high school. OK? Greg offered to get them a business job, whatever they wanted to do.
SCARPA: There was nothing normal about it, Joy.
SCHIRO: They didn`t want to do --
BEHAR: What was that?
SCHIRO: There was nothing glamorous about it. But as far as --
SCARPA: Nothing normal about it.
SCHIRO: Nothing normal about his life outside. But giving them a normal life as children, we did.
BEHAR: You tried.
SCHIRO: I tried.
BEHAR: But you can see where it -- it`s impossible almost to have a normal life when your family is involved in this type of business. It`s very hard for a child to understand. That`s not normal to a child.
A. GIOVINO: But Joy, can I say something? I can understand what she`s saying, and I can understand also what she`s saying.
BEHAR: Yes.
A. GIOVINO: Because my mom was somewhat like that. Not -- you don`t know any better. She doesn`t -- she didn`t really know any better.
BEHAR: I understand that.
A. GIOVINO: When you grow up in that and then your whole surroundings, it`s exactly like if you watch the polygamist cult and see those types of personalities. When you raise a child and you don`t get a handbook and you are just following the format of what was taught to you, you say, OK, well, that`s my normal, until you understand what normal and sick is --
BEHAR: I understand what you`re saying. It`s just to her, it was normal.
A. GIOVINO: To her.
(CROSSTALK)
A. GIOVINO: Right. Because her daughter might have known better.
SCHIRO: What was abnormal other than -- this is my neighborhood. There are gangsters, there are craps games, there are --
BEHAR: But that`s what`s abnormal.
SCHIRO: Why is that abnormal?
BEHAR: You watch TV shows, you go to school, Catholic school, the nuns are different, the other people are different. Your father`s a murderer. The other kids don`t have fathers who are murderers. That`s abnormal.
SCHIRO: Yes, but --
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Right, Linda?
SCARPA: It`s abnormal. But my mother grew up without a mother. Her mother passed away when she was 11. So she basically was raised by her father, and grew up around all these guys who showed her a life that was very hard for her father to show her, because he was a single dad with three daughters and--
BEHAR: Was dad in the business too? Mom was a craps dealer, was your father too--
SCHIRO: My grandmother, my father`s mother.
BEHAR: Was the craps dealer.
SCHIRO: No, she held craps games in her basement.
BEHAR: OK. Now Brittany, you were born into mob life, as well? Right? How old were you when your father went to jail?
BRITTANY GIOVINO, DAUGHTER OF MOBSTER JOHN FOGERTY: I was about eight months old when my father went to jail.
BEHAR: So you never really grew up with that, but your mother was a mobster at the time or not?
B. GIOVINO: Yes. Well, my father went to jail when I was eight months old, and then we moved and got relocated to Pennsylvania when she got arrested when I was about -- almost 2. So I mean, I was too young to know anything of -- I mean, I have no memory of any of that.
BEHAR: So is it shocking that your mother was a mobster?
B. GIOVINO: I wouldn`t say shocking, just because it was so openly talked about in our house. There was never like any secrets. I mean, we`ve always been so open with each other that I just kind of grew up hearing about all of it. So the stories were just always normal to me.
BEHAR: But your father is in witness protection now?
B. GIOVINO: Right.
A. GIOVINO: Yes.
BEHAR: So do you have any connection to your dad?
B. GIOVINO: He came back when I was about 11 years old to try and have a relationship with me and my brother. And we have somewhat of a relationship, but I think after like, from eight months old to 11 years old, I think that`s such a --
BEHAR: Crucial.
B. GIOVINO: Crucial stage to bond with your children, and he wasn`t there. And then it`s like 11 years old, he shows up on your doorstep, hi, I`m your dad. Well, I was like, what, you`re my dad? OK, hi, dad. But I think the years of just bonding were just --
BEHAR: Lost.
B. GIOVINO: Gone, yes.
BEHAR: Linda, when you look back at the time with Greg, do you have fond memories?
SCHIRO: I have a lot of fond memories.
BEHAR: You do?
SCHIRO: Yes.
BEHAR: He was -- Christmas time, he dressed up as Santa, what?
(LAUGHTER)
SCARPA: He gave gifts like Santa.
SCHIRO: He gave gifts like Santa.
BEHAR: He gave gifts like Santa.
SCHIRO: Yes, like, you know --
BEHAR: What was the greatest gift you ever got, Linda? Big diamond ring?
SCHIRO: The greatest gift I ever got were my kids.
BEHAR: Well, besides them -- something monetary.
SCHIRO: A Mercedes.
BEHAR: A Mercedes.
SCHIRO: Yes.
BEHAR: So the perks were nice. I mean, the perks are nice. It`s hard to say he was a bad husband when he gave you a Mercedes I guess, huh?
SCHIRO: Because you know, when we were alone with my family, like every Sunday we`d have family dinner. He just believed in that. And we`d have family dinner. During the week, her and my son had to be home by 5:00 to eat dinner. Or if we were going out --
BEHAR: Was he strict with the kids?
SCHIRO: It`s not that he was strict, but he -- this is the way he wanted his family. He wanted a family. In other words, to keep them -- dinner time is 5:00, make sure you`re home at 5:00, you know.
BEHAR: Yes. It`s very much like "The Godfather" in a certain way, because he had a separate -- he had his life out here where he did his thing, he became a made man and had to do all the violence that he had to do, and then he kept it separate in the family, it sounds like, yes?
SCHIRO: Yes, but even like when we went out--
BEHAR: Linda, well, when I come back, I want to hear from you.
SCARPA: OK.
BEHAR: I have to take another break, I`m sorry. We`ll have more mob talk when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my guests, wives and daughters of mobsters. They were all featured on the show "I Married a Mobster."
Linda, little Linda, your mom has a lot of fond memories of your father. Do you like that she has those fond memories, or would you like her to be angry with him?
SCARPA: No, I mean, she`s entitled to her memories. I have fond memories also, but I do have anger problems with the whole situation, everything that I saw.
BEHAR: Who are you angry with?
SCARPA: Both of them.
BEHAR: She`s angry with you.
SCARPA: She knows. She knows.
BEHAR: So how does that make you feel that she`s angry with you?
SCHIRO: I don`t know why she`s angry with me.
BEHAR: You don`t get it.
SCHIRO: And I don`t get it. I mean, I`ve done -- you know, I had anger issues.
BEHAR: You do?
SCHIRO: When my mother died, I was 11 years old. I had anger issues. And my thing was just, I mean, this little -- I can`t say it on the tube, but you know, being at the Copa Cabana, going to -- not at 11 but like 13, I just, you know, because all the guys were there, come on, we`ll take a ride to the Copa, Peppermint Lounge, all those places. And--
SCARPA: She lived the life and she enjoyed it.
BEHAR: She lived the life and she enjoyed it. But you didn`t.
SCARPA: I enjoyed it up until I really knew what was going on. I enjoyed it up until I had countless number of guys dressed up in black ready to shoot my father and shots being fired into my car.
SCHIRO: Those are the bad times.
BEHAR: Those are the bad times when your father`s getting shot.
SCHIRO: I didn`t like -- yes, and also when I lost my son, I realized --
BEHAR: How did you lose your son?
SCHIRO: My son was murdered.
BEHAR: He was murdered. In a mob--
SCHIRO: Not a mob hit.
BEHAR: Not a mob hit.
SCHIRO: A kid fight.
BEHAR: And your daughter was almost killed.
SCHIRO: My daughter too.
BEHAR: Because they were trying to kill your husband and she was in the car.
SCHIRO: Right, she was in the car.
BEHAR: See, those are the risks that you take when you`re in this kind of a--
SCHIRO: But I`d never experienced that in 30 years. That was the first time. Do you know what I`m saying? Otherwise everything was so good. And then all of a sudden -- well, first Greg got AIDS in `86.
BEHAR: He died of AIDS, right, in jail.
SCHIRO: In `94. My son was murdered in `95. And then I felt a different -- I had a different feeling because now I says, well, I`m a mother of a murdered son. She`s the sister of a murdered brother. And then I realized, and I think I saw the light, you want to say, you want to call it that, and I said, God, how many mothers and sisters --
BEHAR: Experienced this.
SCHIRO: Went through this. And the pain is something that there are no words for it.
BEHAR: OK. Listen, it was very interesting speaking to you. Good luck with the show. "I Married a Mobster" airs Wednesday nights on Investigation Discovery. Thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.
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END
