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Joy Behar Page
Warren Jeffs Found Guilty; Interview with Denise Richards
Aired August 05, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, we`ll have a psychological breakdown of Warren Jeffs and the women who enabled his behavior. Joy wants to know: to stop the cycle of abuse in Jeffs` church, will the wives eventually have to be punished?
Plus a candid conversation with actress Denise Richards about life after Charlie Sheen.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Polygamist leader Warren Jeffs used freedom of religion to defend himself against charge that he raped children. Fortunately, a jury saw through that.
It`s true that freedom of religion is a right in this country. But what Warren Jeffs was doing wasn`t exercising his freedom of religion, he was using it as a cover-up to rape young girl.
With me now discuss this are Steve Hassan, psychologist, cult expert, and author of "Releasing the Bonds"; and Pat Brown, CEO of the Pat Brown Criminal Profiling Agency.
Pat, this guy said he should have been protected under freedom of religion. Does freedom of religion include raping children?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, at least not in my book it doesn`t. I think in most people`s books it doesn`t. But if you look around the world, there are religions who have no problem with little girls being sold off into marriage with men. Little 8-year-olds, 9-year-olds with 60-year-old men. They think it`s perfectly fine.
Warren Jeffs is saying my religion, since I have right religion, this is absolutely proper for us to do. And all you guys are just the evil- doers out there, and we don`t have to listen to you.
BEHAR: But why does he invoke the name of Jesus? Jesus was not interested in anything remotely like that. Where does he come to put Jesus into the conversation?
BROWN: Well, he gets to write the rules in his religion, doesn`t he? I mean, it`s his version of religion as long as he`s the head of the kingdom. He thinks he can do that.
BEHAR: Yes.
BROWN: A psychopath. It`s his world. You know, he gets to make the rules.
BEHAR: And nobody ever questions it.
Jeffs -- Steve, Jeffs used religion to keep power over his sect. Why -- in your experience, why is religion such a powerful tool in brainwashing? I mean you had that Phillip Garrido did, David Koresh to name but two of them. Yes.
STEVE HASSAN, CULT EXPERT: Exactly. Well, Joy I`ve been a therapist in helping people out of destructive cults for over 30. I, myself in a cult so I can tell you that the mindset of a cult leader is one that`s above human laws.
And I guess I just want to comment and say that freedom of religion does not mean freedom of behavior. We`re free to believe what we want to believe if we say God told us to smoke pot. But it`s still illegal unless it`s medical marijuana, and it`s allowed in the state.
But the point here is that mind control groups exist, they exist by controlling people`s behavior, information, thoughts, and emotions. And creating an identity that is totally dependent on the leader.
BEHAR: Uh-huh.
HASSAN: So that members are not allowed to think critical thoughts.
BEHAR: Right.
HASSAN: And they have phobias that are installed in their mind that if they ever question or even think about leaving the group, terrible things are going to happen to them. In the case of religion, to answer your question, because they`re talking about God and salvation and eternity in a lot of people`s world views, that`s the ultimate phobia; that if you leave the leader, you leave the group, you`re going to lose your soul and you`ll be damned forever, et cetera.
BEHAR: Yes. I see. Well, you should know because you were part of the Mooneys for two years, am I right?
HASSAN: Exactly.
BEHAR: How did you get sucked into that? How did that happen to you?
HASSAN: Oh, Joy. I was a 19-year-old upper junior at Queens College in New York and my girlfriend had dumped me and three Mooney women were pretending to be students and flirted with me. And didn`t tell me that they were part of any type of organized group, much less believing moon was the messiah or that the group believed in celibacy and moon doing these mass weddings --
BEHAR: Goodness.
HASSAN: With thousands of men and women and saying "you marry you, you marry you". But I -- I became a leader in the group. And I was like totally fanatical. And fortunately I fell asleep at the wheel of a van and crashed into the back of a tractor-trailer truck and was to the hospital and reached out to my sister, and then my family rescued me.
I started studying brainwashing and mind control. I basically went to grad school and became a therapist and have been helping people ever since.
BEHAR: And the rest is history.
You know it`s funny Steve, I went to Queens College, I never met a Mooney. I never met a Mooney when I was there.
HASSAN: Well, I actually, Joy in 1974, I founded CARP which was a collegiate recruiting front for the Mooneys that as soon as you joined CARP you would drop out of Queens College.
BEHAR: Wow, I should have gone to Brooklyn College. You see?
Pat, let me talk to you, on the audiotape of Jeffs with girls, Jeff says, quote, "In the name of Jesus Christ, amen." does he actually believe these sex acts have spiritual significance or is it just straight-up exploitation? Does he believe it? What do you think?
BROWN: I think it`s more exploitation, just like we had with Charles Manson, just like we do with Phillip Garrido. But I want to mention something about --
HASSAN: I -- I disagree --
BROWN: Hold on a second. I want to mention something about belonging. When people are brought in to any kind of belief system like this, the longer they`re there, the more that becomes their place. It`s like Stockholm Syndrome. It`s their home.
It`s like a marriage. You get into a marriage, you`re there for 10, 20 years. A divorce throws you out into the cold. It throws you away from your culture, away from your friends, away from everything. It`s hard. You`re left out there.
So when you`re in a strong, cult-like situation, when they say you could leave, you don`t know where to go. You`re going to lose everything you have, and people are very frightened of that. It`s very hard to walk away from where you think you belong.
BEHAR: Ok, Steve. Go ahead.
HASSAN: Well, it is very hard to walk away. But in my -- on the continuum of influence, leaving a marriage is nowhere close to being in a totalistic mind-control cult with a demagogue who is delusional --
BROWN: I`m just using that as an example.
HASSAN: And in my opinion --
BROWN: I`m saying if it`s that hard to leave a marriage, think of how hard to say leave that group. I`m saying it`s that much harder.
HASSAN: And I`m confirming -- you`re absolutely right, Joy. It is so much infinitely harder. And in fact, my take on Jeffs as it is with so many other cult leaders is that they`re often former members of cult groups. They often have narcissistic personality disorder, are delusional and psychotic. And so in my opinion, I --
BEHAR: Well --
I haven`t evaluated Warren Jeffs. But my guess is that he actually believes this crap.
BEHAR: Well, ok. I see -- he probably does. I mean, and also --
HASSAN: That`s my opinion.
BEHAR: One author who studied this guy in his group describes him as very mercurial and unpredictable. She said, he one day decided the color red should be banned, for example. Isn`t that unpredictable behavior the kind description of nut cases; that type of mercurial, crazy behavior. That`s a crazy person.
HASSAN: Well, imagine being in a world where you only are surrounded by "yes" people who believe you`re the prophet of God, the highest person on earth that channels God`s will and gives revelations. And if you have the thought that red is bad, that`s God`s will, red is bad. And no one is there --
BROWN: Yes, but it`s not --
HASSAN: Let me just finish quickly --
BROWN: Ok.
HASSAN: No one is there to tell you "no", you know. Red`s nice or red is fine.
And what`s so interesting now for Jeffs is reality is like saying, "No, what you did is not ok. No, no, no, you`re going to jail."
BEHAR: Yes.
HASSAN: It`s got to be a shock.
BEHAR: How long do you think he`ll last in jail, Pat?
BROWN: He`s going to be like Manson. He will continue to have his believers, his followers. People writing to him.
HASSAN: That`s true.
BROWN: He may not like the situation he`s going to end up in, but he will handle it ok because he`ll continue his garbage. I want to say this thing about him --
BEHAR: But wait a minute. Why do they have to give him a telephone and access to the outside world when he can continue to control --
HASSAN: Right --
BROWN: Because we`re stupid. We allow our prisoners way too many rights. We allow them to continue to abuse people even on the inside.
I want to say this about him believing that he`s God. I don`t believe that. I believe he`s psychopathic. What happens is you get so much power, you just know you can rule that whole roost. You can manipulate everybody like little chess pieces. It`s not that you think you`re God, but you think it`s funny that everybody else thinks you`re God.
HASSAN: See, I -- I disagree.
BEHAR: Can anybody answer the question of why the FBI has not raided this place before? Will they go in there now? I mean, why is the FBI standing on the sidelines of something like this?
HASSAN: Too many people in it, tens of thousands of people. It was just this blight that nobody wanted to pay attention to until some courageous runaways from this cult started doing media and getting attention --
BEHAR: So we are making progress then --
HASSAN: Pressuring the attorney general in Utah. And it`s -- it`s really a crime that so many people in the United States of America are in mind-control cults that are essentially robbing people of -- individuals of informed consent when they`re recruiting them. Robbing them of human rights, of food, education, medical treatment, seeing their families --
BEHAR: And they`re allowed to get away with that.
HASSAN: And giving them tax exemption status on top of it to say please -- and this group was ripping off the system by having members on welfare --
BEHAR: I know.
HASSAN: -- to support all these --
BEHAR: It`s unbelievable Pat. You say that we`re stupid. We really are stupid. We`re really stupid.
HASSAN: We need a radical --
BROWN: We don`t want to speak out -- we don`t -- we`re afraid to step out to the plate especially when you put the name religion or culture on it. It`s like when we look at all these women around the world who are forced to wear burqas and they`re imprisoned in their homes --
BEHAR: Yes.
BROWN: -- and we say, oh, it`s just the culture. The women don`t mind it.
And it`s like, wait a minute, it`s not -- they`re not so happy about that either. It`s not fair to say all these women who don`t have any rights don`t have a problem with it. We`re seeing the Saudis -- for example, Saudi women are now -- they had that driving day, where they are going out to drive.
BEHAR: Yes. Yes.
BROWN: They`re fighting for their rights. But they`re in the same situation as we see with the particular Jeffs situation. They`re stuck, they`re born into it and can`t get out.
HASSAN: We`re coming up on -- coming up on the 10th anniversary of 9/11, I`ve been saying for ten years that if we deal with FLDS and understand how to counsel people out of that organization, we`ll have a window into all Islamic extremist cult groups, Buddhist extremist cult groups, Hindu extremist cult groups, or political cults of any way, shape, or form -- because --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Are you talking about the Republican Party?
HASSAN: -- exists. Mind control exists.
BEHAR: Ok, thank you, guys.
BROWN: At all levels. At all levels.
BEHAR: Thanks very much. We`ve got to go. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: In the last ten years, Denise Richards married Charlie Sheen, had two kids, divorced Charlie Sheen, and became a favorite target of the tabloids. But she has survived it all and talks about it in her new book "The Real Girl Next Door". Here with me now is Denise Richards.
So Denise, first of all, are you -- do you spray tan?
DENISE RICHARDS, ACTRESS: I do. Do you want her name?
BEHAR: Yes. I mean today -- when they spray tan you, do you they do head to feet or just like neck down or what?
RICHARDS: Sometimes I don`t do my face because it`s a bit drying.
BEHAR: Yes, yes, yes.
RICHARDS: Yes, but she airbrushes it basically on me.
BEHAR: How often do you do that?
RICHARDS: It lasts about a good ten days.
BEHAR: Yes?
RICHARDS: Yes. I do get some real sun, but --
BEHAR: Not too much.
RICHARDS: Not too much, no.
BEHAR: Thank you. I needed that little tip.
RICHARDS: Yes. Thank you. Matt Lauer asked me about it, too.
BEHAR: He did?
RICHARDS: Yes, off camera, though, I think.
BEHAR: Oh. That`s the difference between Matt Lauer and me.
And the other thing I want to ask you about is this cover of your book, "The Real Girl Next Door", which is an interesting cover if you look at it out there. If they don`t show you the exact picture, I`ll show it up here. It has a picture of you with a toothbrush.
RICHARDS: Right.
BEHAR: In your jammies.
RICHARDS: In my jammies.
BEHAR: With the paparazzi following you.
RICHARDS: Exactly.
BEHAR: So I know that somebody dreamed this up. But what do you make of this?
RICHARDS: We wanted to do something very, you know, that had a little bit of humor on the cover --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes, it`s funny.
RICHARDS: -- and not too serious and not take myself too seriously. So you know, it`s just me home brushing my teeth and then also the other side of the book, too, which is my work and --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: And that they -- that they stalk you --
RICHARDS: The tabloids and all that.
BEHAR: They follow you.
RICHARDS: They have - yes, yes.
BEHAR: Yes and the girl next door just gets up and brush their teeth just like everybody else.
RICHARDS: Exactly, with my hair and make-up done.
BEHAR: Right, of course.
RICHARDS: That`s how I look every morning.
BEHAR: Yes you are. And I talked to you on "The View" the other day and you have three kids now and a dog. I mean, you know, except there`s a missing husband here, right?
RICHARDS: Right.
BEHAR: Well, so the picture is not complete. But so what?
RICHARDS: You know what.
BEHAR: What?
RICHARDS: Every family is different.
BEHAR: Yes.
RICHARDS: In my family -- for right now it`s complete.
BEHAR: Yes.
RICHARDS: So -- you know, it`s -- we`re good.
BEHAR: And the last little girl, Eloise, which is -- she`s an adopted child.
RICHARDS: Yes she is.
BEHAR: How old is she now?
RICHARDS: She`s seven weeks.
BEHAR: Oh she`s -- so who`s home with the baby now?
RICHARDS: Well, she`s here in New York. And I brought all the kids this week for our trip.
BEHAR: It`s hard to have a little infant at home, isn`t it?
RICHARDS: Well, luckily I mean, I`m able to bring her pretty much everywhere, and with my job, too, my girls, when they`re not in school or at a camp, a day camp, they can come to work when they want.
BEHAR: That`s nice.
RICHARDS: That`s nice.
BEHAR: That`s very nice.
You know the last time you were here with me -- Charlie and your girls came in to New York --
(CROSSTALK)
RICHARDS: Yes.
BEHAR: -- and you Charlie had an incident at the Plaza --
RICHARDS: No, he had an incident.
BEHAR: He had an incident. Right I`m sorry.
RICHARDS: I always have to clarify this.
BEHAR: You didn`t have the incident.
RICHARDS: No, I didn`t.
BEHAR: You just happened to be here.
RICHARDS: I was -- yes.
BEHAR: Right.
You`re not staying at the Plaza again, are you?
RICHARDS: No, we aren`t. The girls really wanted to, and I told them it was booked.
BEHAR: I think you should stay away from the Plaza.
RICHARDS: I do like the room we stayed at, but maybe the next time.
BEHAR: Yes.
RICHARDS: But the first time back since then with the kids, I felt we should stay somewhere else.
BEHAR: Yes. And you know -- and also the other thing is, I mean, I did interview the other day at "The View" we were talking about Charlie. And I thought to myself, poor Denise, it`s like you always have to answer questions about Charlie Sheen. Doesn`t it get annoying?
RICHARDS: I haven`t done one interview I think in the last eight years where I wasn`t asked about him.
BEHAR: Yes.
RICHARDS: So yes.
BEHAR: Well, you know, the thing with him is that he -- he has been a train wreck. And he`s also a popular sitcom star, you know. And he has issues. And so we can`t really talk to him. So we`re talking to you about him. You know?
RICHARDS: I understand, but I think what people don`t realize is --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
RICHARDS: -- we`ve been divorced over six years.
BEHAR: I know. That`s true.
RICHARDS: It`s been a long time.
BEHAR: I know, but you never really lose a connection to someone you had children with.
RICHARDS: Exactly. Exactly.
BEHAR: In fact, I was wondering how you shield your children from all of the publicity surrounding you and Charlie.
RICHARDS: It`s actually very, very difficult as they`re getting older. And during the last six months when things were very much in the media, I literally did not have anything on the television other than Nickelodeon and Disney.
BEHAR: Right.
RICHARDS: And the radio in the car. And it`s hard because I can`t control what other kids have on at their home. But luckily their friends, parents have been very respectful of our situation. But it -- it does get difficult.
BEHAR: Does he see them?
RICHARDS: Yes. He`s still -- he`s their dad.
BEHAR: Right.
RICHARDS: And when things are great, it`s great. And when they`re different, then it`s different. And I just learn to deal with it.
BEHAR: Do you think it`s ironic that he`s talking about a new sitcom called "Anger Management"? I think it`s --
RICHARDS: Well, it was a funny movie. So I`m sure it will be a very funny show.
BEHAR: Yes. He`s a talented guy.
RICHARDS: He`s very talented.
BEHAR: Yes.
RICHARDS: He is.
BEHAR: It`s sort of a sad story in a certain way because you worry about people like him. You know, what with this Amy Winehouse situation --
RICHARDS: Right.
BEHAR: And you know, "they`ve tried to get me to go to the rehab; I said no, no, no."
RICHARDS: Right.
BEHAR: Well that`s -- that`s similar to the Charlie Sheen story in many ways, you know. He doesn`t seem to want to get help easily either.
RICHARDS: Well, Charlie is a survivor.
And honestly, if anyone can get through this and make a big comeback and get healthy, I really in my heart believe that Charlie can. Today he`s doing great. And, you know, I take it day by day.
BEHAR: Yes. And but when your children are older, what will you do to shield them, do you think? How will you do that?
RICHARDS: You know, I`ve learned to -- I can`t predict the future and I didn`t think I would have to have certain conversations at their age now. So as they get older I`ll be able to learn how to talk to them more. But right now they know enough for what`s appropriate for their age in my opinion.
BEHAR: All right. Ok. We`re going to take a break.
We`ll have more with Denise Richards in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my guest Denise Richards.
You know, Denise, in the book you discuss Richie Sambora. And you dated after both of your marriages broke up.
RICHARDS: Right.
BEHAR: Did you date him twice?
RICHARDS: No.
BEHAR: Ok. Anyway. But the press painted you as, you know, someone who stole someone`s husband.
RICHARDS: Right.
BEHAR: Heather Locklear`s husband. Tell me what happened from your point of view.
RICHARDS: Well, my point of view is the truth of what happened. He was --
BEHAR: Ok.
RICHARDS: If I did have an affair with him after everything I`ve been through I would just own it. I did it. I didn`t cheat on my husband. He didn`t cheat on his wife. And Richie was divorced. Charlie and I were divorced. And my friendship with her had ended long --
BEHAR: With Heather?
RICHARDS: Yes -- long before Richie and I ever even got together. If she and I were friends, there is no way in hell I would have ever crossed that line.
BEHAR: So you used to be friends with Heather?
RICHARDS: Yes.
BEHAR: Then you had a breakup with Heather?
RICHARDS: Yes.
BEHAR: Uh-huh. Ok. That happens with girlfriends sometimes.
RICHARDS: Yes. We --
BEHAR: Was it over a man, though? Was it over --
RICHARDS: No, it was not over a man. We were not friends for very long. And we`re very different. And so, you know, just the friendship had ended months before he and I had ever gotten together. And we did not have an affair.
BEHAR: Ok. Did dating Sambora and the bad press you got, did that hurt you at all?
RICHARDS: Oh, yes.
BEHAR: It did?
RICHARDS: Yes. It was very difficult.
BEHAR: People thought you were a home wrecker?
RICHARDS: They thought I was a home wrecker. They thought I broke up a marriage. They thought that I -- well, I guess that`s part of being a home wrecker. Plus I had a very heated custody battle with an actor who was on a number-one sitcom so, combining all of that --
BEHAR: You mean Charlie?
RICHARDS: Yes, Charlie. It definitely affected my career. I couldn`t get a job. No one would even, you know, see me in a room. That was hard.
BEHAR: Do you think it`s harder on women than men? You have some people, some guys -- Arnold Schwarzenegger`s bouncing back already. He`s got a new deal for a movie.
RICHARDS: I don`t know. In my situation, it was a few things going on, I think. And so it was hard for me to wrap my head around that my personal life could affect my career. In any other job I`d be able to leave my personal business at the door.
BEHAR: True. True.
RICHARDS: That really affected me. That was very, very hard.
BEHAR: Do you think you`ll get married again?
RICHARDS: I`d like to for sure. I`m not bitter about marriage.
BEHAR: Anybody on the horizon?
RICHARDS: I`ll never get divorced again.
BEHAR: You`ll never get divorced again?
RICHARDS: Oh, no. Even if I hate his guts, I will just live down the street and that`s fine. I will not go through this again ever, ever.
BEHAR: I don`t blame you. All right.
Denise`s new memoir is "The Real Girl Next Door". Thanks for coming on, Denise.
RICHARDS: Thank you.
BEHAR: All right.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: As we just learned before the break, shocking audiotapes played in court reveal that Warren Jeffs not only allegedly coached a 14- year-old child bride on how to please him sexually but also sexually assaulted another 12-year-old so-called wife as others watched. This man is a monster, but what can be said about the FLDS women who allowed it to happen? With me to discuss this and other psychological hot topics in the news are Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and a marriage and family therapist. And Brian Russell, a forensic psychologist and an attorney. Hello, guys.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Hello.
BRIAN RUSSELL, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Hello.
BEHAR: I tell you, this story makes me crazy. How can these FLDS women allow their underage daughters to marry this creep and be sexually assaulted? Bethany, can you help me out here?
MARSHALL: Well, this is so atrocious, we have to ask why would a guru rape a child in front of the female caregivers? Because he wants to turn them on, and also he`s trying to assert his power over them. Why wouldn`t they rush to protect the little girls? Because they think he`s God. This is a tenet of their faith, of their religion. And why do they think he`s God? Because they have allowed themselves to be drawn into a delusion like a delusional disorder. Remember Randy Quaid and his wife who thought the star whackers were after them?
BEHAR: Yes.
MARSHALL: When you have a very powerful person with a strong belief and you inject that into a weaker person, you can cause them to go into the same delusional state that you`re in.
BEHAR: I see. And Brian, they`ve been brainwashed to believe they`ll get to heaven if they`re obedient wives, you know. Or if they supply their daughters as wives. So Bethany says that they`re all part of this grand delusion. Can you actually blame the wives if that`s the case?
RUSSELL: Yes. First, Joy, let me just say that not understanding this is actually a sign of mental health. If you understood this perfectly, I`d want to see you in my office.
BEHAR: Thank you.
RUSSELL: But chalking this up to -- chalking this up to mental illness or brainwashing has given these women a pass that they don`t deserve, Joy.
BEHAR: I agree with that. Yes.
RUSSELL: It`s giving them a pass they don`t deserve. Because if they want to stick around, the mothers do, and they want to have menage a trois or quatre or cinque or whatever with Jeffs and his cronies, that`s fine. But if they subject their children to it, they are active accomplices in child abuse and they should be punished as such. They have the intellect, they have the intellect to appreciate the wrongfulness of this, as evidenced by the fact that some of them have gotten themselves and their kids out of it.
Now why do some of them stay? It`s because it`s an extreme example of what can happen when somebody grows up immersed in a cultural grip that they can`t imagine not being in.
BEHAR: Right.
RUSSELL: They start to prioritize membership in the group to such a degree that they will rationalize that whatever`s going on in the group is better than whatever`s going on outside the group. And Jeffs reinforces it daily.
BEHAR: Maybe they`re scared also. But you know, Bethany, can religious beliefs really override the motherly instinct to protect your child?
MARSHALL: Yes, they can -- hey, religious beliefs can override everything. Why else does a suicide bomber walk into a marketplace and blow himself up when there are children and family members all around? Because when you take over a person`s beliefs, you take over every other part of their life.
But also, when you rearrange everything about their lives, you cut them off from outside influence, you make them live in barracks, they don`t have their own separate thoughts and resources, then it is so dissonant for them to believe that they`re living this horrible life and that is not an OK thing, so they bring their beliefs in line with the lifestyle in which they have been raised. And that is what we call brainwashing.
BEHAR: Right. They`re also convinced --
RUSSELL: There`s a choice in that, though.
BEHAR: They`re also convinced, Bethany, that those outfits are attractive.
MARSHALL: Say that again? They`re what?
BEHAR: I said they`re convinced those outfits are attractive. They`re just crazy, the whole bunch of them, 10,000 people in this country. And it exists in this -- the United States. It`s unbelievable. This guy has gotten away with this and these women are part and parcel to these events, it`s outrageous. I can`t believe it.
MARSHALL: But you know what I love, Joy? I love when he went into court and he read the letter from God to the judge.
BEHAR: Uh-huh, yes.
MARSHALL: Because this is the first woman that he is not going to be able to intimidate.
BEHAR: I know.
MARSHALL: And I wonder what the other women think when they see this going on and they realize that finally there`s a woman there somewhere who doesn`t give in to his delusional beliefs.
BEHAR: Yes. They must think they`re on another planet. Let`s do another story, OK? There`s more disturbing new video released today of this other -- another bargain -- Nancy Garrido, the wife of Phillip Garrido and the co-conspirator in the Jaycee Dugard kidnapping. Now this footage shows how she would lure young girls into a van and record them posing for her husband, her husband, to view later. Another crazy wife who goes along with the crazy husband. Is this case, Bethany, any different from the brainwashing of the previous women we just talked about?
MARSHALL: Yes. This is completely different. Careful assessment of these types of women tells us that this woman, Nancy Garrido, was obsessed with her husband. And that`s what we see in these kinds of cases. The relationship with the man is more important than the relationship with the child. The child is simply a pawn to keep the man happy. So what was she doing when she was going out and videotaping all those little kids in the back of a van? And according to one report, she videotaped him playing the guitar at a park with children in the background as a ruse so that she could get little kids on tape. What was she doing? She was bringing a tasty treat back to the master. She was giving a gift to the gods. And also, don`t tell me that she didn`t hate these little children for being interlopers in the marital relationship, and when they were raped, sodomized, and mistreated, she felt that they got their just desserts.
BEHAR: Oh, boy. And you know, Brian, if Nancy Garrido, this woman, was trying to hold on to her husband, you know, it`s odd. Why would she willingly provide him with sexual rivals? In her mind, I`m talking about.
RUSSELL: Well, you know, maybe so, maybe not. She could be a psychopath in her own right who was enjoying some or all of this herself. She didn`t just aid and abet him. She had chances to end this, she had chances to let those kids go when he was elsewhere, and she didn`t take them.
MARSHALL: Brian, if she was a psychopath, he would have been bringing little boys to her. She was bringing the children to him.
RUSSELL: Not necessarily -- people can have all kinds of different sexual proclivities. You know, she -- look at this guy. Do we have a picture? Are we showing his picture? This guy -- I don`t buy that he had some Svengali-like control over this woman. This guy is a crazed-looking troll of a man who doesn`t look like he could have charmed anybody out of a paper bag.
BEHAR: Excuse me, excuse me. She`s no beauty either, have you seen her face?
RUSSELL: No, she`s not at all -- she`s not at all. But I don`t buy - -
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: That is one scary couple.
RUSSELL: I don`t buy that there`s anything this woman did that she`s not 100 percent responsible for herself.
BEHAR: OK.
MARSHALL: Of course she`s culpable. But when you said Svengali, you know they were leading -- he was leading religious services in their basement. He had a church just composed of Nancy, Jaycee, and the two little girls. So in his own mind he was a Svengali.
RUSSELL: Well, when you`re an adult, you have a choice about what you`re going to believe and what you`re not going to believe. And the law requires that you think -- you have to think -- the law requires that everybody who has a functioning adult mind think about what`s right and wrong. Otherwise, people like Michael Vick could say, well, I had to abuse dogs because I was taught that growing up. Once you`re an adult, you have to apply your intellect. And if you don`t, then you`re criminally responsible.
MARSHALL: Right, Brian, speaking of applying intellect, explanation is not the same as excuse. And when we find explanation for why--
RUSSELL: That`s correct.
MARSHALL: -- she did what she did, we are definitely not excusing her. We`re trying to understand it so that more children do not have crimes perpetrated against them.
BEHAR: Right, but let me tell you something, this woman later told Jaycee Dugard from jail that she still loved Phillip, even though what they did was wrong. So she knew what they did was wrong.
MARSHALL: She definitely knew right from wrong.
RUSSELL: Of course she did.
BEHAR: She did. So she is culpable, even if she was sexually abused as a child herself, she still knew that it was wrong. I don`t know if she was--
RUSSELL: Absolutely.
BEHAR: OK, there`s one more story I wanted to go over. This Oregon mom -- I saw this this week, and it`s just awful, too. She lost the custody battle to keep her kids away from the new wife of her ex-husband. The woman was found not guilty of killing her own two children, the ex- wife, the -- I mean the ex-husband`s wife. She was found not guilty of killing her own children by reason of temporary insanity. And now this woman`s children are visiting and staying over under the roof of this woman who killed her previous two children.
Is it -- this woman, Christine Cushing her name is, if she was capable of murder once even by temporary insanity, isn`t she capable of doing it again, Bethany?
MARSHALL: Not only is she capable of doing it again, but we have to ask ourselves why. Didn`t she murder a 2- and 4-year-old little girl? Did she do it to get back at her husband? Did she do it because she wanted an idealized life? Did she do it because she resented them? And what does that mean about the fact that she is getting her husband to bring his two little boys back into that household? Does she want control over these children? Is he trying to rehabilitate some fantasy that he has a great family life even though he`s married to a homicidal woman, or are these children being used as pawns in some elaborate way by both of them to deny her homicidal past?
BEHAR: You know, and this other thing that really bothers me is that the ruling judge admitted he wouldn`t want to expose his kids to such a woman. What kind of a jerk is this judge?
RUSSELL: I`m an expert in child custody cases, and I`ve never seen anything like this from a judge. This is absolutely horrendous. You and I have talked about something like this before with the Kyron Horman (ph) case. And that is the lesson for every single parent out there is that your love life, your sex life takes a back seat to the best interests of your kids. And whenever you are thinking about bringing a significant other into your kids` lives, the only question on your mind should be what benefit or detriment will this person have to my kids? And if there`s anything in their history that indicates they might pose a danger, that`s it. They are unacceptable.
BEHAR: But the husband`s probably in denial, too, right, Bethany? The husband doesn`t --
MARSHALL: Well, the husband may be offender identified and maybe the judge is offender identified, too, meaning that they feel more sorry for homicidal mom than towards these vulnerable young children.
BEHAR: Wow. I will tell you, there`s a --
(CROSSTALK)
RUSSELL: I diagnose them as insane.
BEHAR: There`s a war against children going on in this country. It`s very disturbing. These stories are outrageous to me. And I want to thank you guys for weighing in on these stories. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Helen Mirren, age 66, has won the title of "Body of the Year" in a new poll done by the gym L.A. Fitness. She was also named sexiest, Helen, beating out Helen Thomas.
Here to discuss this and other pop culture stories in the news are actress Allison Janney, star of the upcoming film "The Help"; comedian Chuck Nice; and Rob Shuter, AOL`s PopEater columnist.
Ok, Rob, she`s beautiful, Rob. But do you really think she has a better body than Elle MacPherson and Jennifer Lopez because that`s who she beat.
ROB SHUTER, COLUMNIST, AOL`S POPEATER: I think that this is really smart marketing. To put somebody at the top of this poll like an Angelina Jolie, we probably wouldn`t be talking about it as much as what we are today. This is just something very clever.
BEHAR: Are you saying they manipulated the poll?
SHUTER: I`m saying that that might have happened.
BEHAR: Really? L.A. Fitness, a gym in Los Angeles --
(CROSSTALK)
CHUCK NICE, COMEDIAN: A gym in Los Angeles --
BEHAR: Would make something up? I cannot believe that.
NICE: You know, I`ve got to agree with the poll. I look at Helen Mirren. I think she is a gorgeous woman. She`s not Dame Helen Mirren, it`s more like damn Helen Mirren. And I agree with the poll.
BEHAR: She looks great.
NICE: She looks fantastic. And I wouldn`t -- I wouldn`t have a problem tossing her around for a minute.
SHUTER: Ooh.
ALLISON JANNEY, ACTRESS: Excuse me.
NICE: I`m just putting that out there, Helen Mirren.
JANNEY: Yes, I do not -- I do not want to toss her around, but I do - - I am so grateful that they have someone of her age as -- for being put out there for having a great body. It gives me hope. I`m not her age yet, but I still want to be considered a sexy, viable woman --
NICE: Consider that done, Allison. You`re tossed around next.
BEHAR: So you have to know that Allison Janney did flash her boobs in a movie called "Life During Wartime."
JANNEY: I did.
NICE: OK, note to self: DVD purchase.
JANNEY: I am so -- I got talked into -- yes, well. That was very challenging. I kept saying -- I was like trying to put my arms up, can I - - when it -- oh but I just had to let them be. And obviously I have not had enhancements there. I asked for them digitally afterwards.
BEHAR: Did they say yes?
JANNEY: Well, I went in with the guys to do it.
BEHAR: Yes.
JANNEY: And they said, first of all, we`ve never had the actress in the room as we try do this. And -- and I said, well, let`s get -- let`s get it done. And we -- and we tried. And then it wasn`t -- they just kept looking worse and worse. I said, "Leave them the way they are."
BEHAR: So you know, Chuck or Rob, really, Pippa Middleton, the British sister, she -- she was on the list. She was number eight.
SHUTER: Yes. She`s -- she`s popular --
BEHAR: She`s outshined her sister. I`m sorry.
SHUTER: Absolutely, since the minute she got out of that carriage. The whole world has been talking about Pippa. Pippa is probably hotter than Kate. And even in Britain, Pippa mania is at a peak. We cannot get enough of this girl.
BEHAR: But you know what, I remember when Margaret, Princess Margaret was hotter than Elizabeth, too. It`s always the way. The one who`s going to be Queen has to be --
JANNEY: Yes, they can`t say that about Kate now.
BEHAR: No.
NICE: Right, she`s married. She`s married and in line for the throne.
BEHAR: Exactly.
NICE: I mean, you can`t lust after a woman like that.
BEHAR: No.
NICE: Her younger sister, I`m in.
BEHAR: That`s what Prince Phillip thought also.
NICE: Oh. Yes.
BEHAR: You know him. He`s a dog.
Simon Cowell made the cut at number ten. I mean, so does that de- legitimatized the list right there, Simon Cowell?
SHUTER: I think the whole list is a little dodgy. But it`s fun to look at this. And it`s fun to look at some of these people -- and especially Helen, and realize that we can all be gorgeous at any age.
BEHAR: Yes, OK.
JANNEY: Yes, exactly.
NICE: I mean, when you look at Simon Cowell, quite frankly, his boobs are almost as nice as Pippa Middleton.
BEHAR: But not as nice as Allison Janney.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Linda Evangelista is demanding a whopping $46,000 a month in child support claiming her French billionaire baby daddy, whatever his name is, hasn`t paid a cent to their 4-year-old son, Augustine.
Now, she wants $46,000 a month which we figured out comes to -- if she -- if he pays until the child is 18-years-old, would come to $7,728,000, which is .0006 percent of his overall wealth.
SHUTER: That`s the big point here, because he`s worth billions -- billions. So it does sound like a huge figure, but when you do the percentages.
JANNEY: Yes.
BEHAR: Right.
SHUTER: It`s actually a rather reasonable request.
BEHAR: It`s nothing to him.
SHUTER: That`s odd.
NICE: All I know is I got to get me some money. This guy looks like Barney Rubble, and he has had Linda Evangelista and is now married to Salma Hayek. I got to make some money.
BEHAR: It`s all about the money, isn`t it?
NICE: That`s what it`s about.
BEHAR: Women are so shallow.
NICE: Not going to say shallow. I`m going to call that smart. If he asked me to marry him, I`d say yes.
BEHAR: Do we -- we have a picture of this guy? Henri Penault.
NICE: Yes, Henri Penault --
BEHAR: We call him Petite Penault because you know --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well, you know, he`s -- we don`t know. I made that up -- look at him. He`s hideous.
JANNEY: He doesn`t look so bad.
NICE: No.
BEHAR: Do you want to borrow my glasses? Try these glasses on. So he also has a child, a 3-year-old daughter, Valentina.
NICE: Yes.
BEHAR: With Salma Hayek. And he lavishes money and praise on this child. That`s not fair, in my opinion.
JANNEY: No, it`s not fair at all.
BEHAR: He`s not married to Linda Evangelista. He never was.
NICE: Yes.
JANNEY: Oh, I didn`t know that.
BEHAR: Yes.
NICE: Yes, but you know, it`s not about Linda, it`s about the child.
JANNEY: Yes.
NICE: And as far as I`m concerned, if you don`t pay a cent of child support and you`re worth $11.5 billion.
BEHAR: Yes.
NICE: If I were the judge I would double the judgment. You get $92,000 a month. That`s what you get.
BEHAR: Well, this is what she wants it for -- round-the-clock nannies, gun-toting drivers for the kid.
NICE: Right.
BEHAR: I guess she has to protect the kid from something, why?
SHUTER: Well, from kidnapping I guess. Because --
(CROSSTALK)
NICE: Yes, he`s a billionaire.
BEHAR: Well, he won`t be kidnapped if she`s not getting the money.
NICE: That`s true.
BEHAR: And a monthly vacation allowance. Who goes on a vacation every month?
NICE: This kid does apparently. He`s -- he`s a very stressed out kid. His father is a billionaire. It`s very tough on him. He needs rest and relaxation.
JANNEY: She probably had to come up with -- they probably said you have to make an itemized list of why -- you know, justify this amount. She probably had to come up with -- she probably doesn`t really need all those things. She just came up with them to --
BEHAR: Right. Right.
NICE: What she should have done is put one item in the whole list -- cocaine. My son has a serious coke habit.
BEHAR: Don`t start that rumor.
OK. We`ll have more pop culture on the way. Sit tight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my lovely panel. In her first interview since she announced her separation from Marc Anthony, Jennifer Lopez told "Vanity Fair" she loved herself enough to walk away from the marriage explaining the following. "To understand that a person is not good for you or that that person is not treating you in the right way or that he is not doing the right thing for himself, if I stay, then I am not doing the right thing for me."
First of all, that`s a run-on sentence. Secondly, I have no idea what you`re talking about, Jennifer. Do you?
NICE: No.
BEHAR: Do you know what she`s talking about?
NICE: I think she`s trying to spin this in a way to say in a subtle fashion it`s his fault. I think that`s what she`s trying to do there. She`s going in a very roundabout way like it`s not me, it`s him. That`s really what she`s saying.
BEHAR: "And I wanted to do what was right." She also said she left the marriage because she loves herself. Is it possible to love yourself too much?
NICE: I was going to say, probably the problem in the marriage was that she loves herself like maybe just a little too much.
BEHAR: Yes.
SHUTER: This really is a very odd statement. It really doesn`t say very much. I thought the statement would be tighter, more to the point. It sounds like they sort of caught her a little bit off guard.
BEHAR: But Allison, you were in a movie with her.
JANNEY: I was in a movie with Marc Anthony --
BEHAR: With Marc.
JANNEY: -- a movie called "Big Night". And I just adore him. I know him -- I don`t know him really well, but the time I spent with him on that movie, I just love him. He`s a charming, wonderful, sweet man.
BEHAR: I`ve read that he`s nice.
JANNEY: And I just saw them both recently at a party in Hollywood. I don`t -- I can`t remember what it was for because I usually don`t go to those things. And I saw him and met her for the first time. But I didn`t get a --
BEHAR: Was there trouble in paradise?
JANNEY: I didn`t get a feeling, I didn`t get much of a feeling for her. I knew him and so we talked.
BEHAR: This is her third marriage, and she`s pushing 40 now. Maybe you have to say to yourself, maybe she has issues with relationships. Is that possible? Or am I stretching this?
NICE: You know, you`re -- you`re right on point. When you get married and you keep going through the same thing -- my wife put it to me this way -- you should look in the mirror because that`s where the problem is.
SHUTER: She`s a very complex girl. I used to work for J. Lo. And she`s tricky. She`s not the easiest person to work for --
BEHAR: What are you saying, Rob?
SHUTER: I`m saying --
BEHAR: Uh-oh.
NICE: What do you mean tricky? Tricky like the Trix rabbit or --
BEHAR: What do you mean tricky?
SHUTER: I would say that Jennifer needs to love herself as she said in the statement.
BEHAR: She needs to love herself.
SHUTER: Yes.
BEHAR: She does love herself.
SHUTER: There`s the answer.
NICE: Ok. Are we talking about masturbation? I mean -- are we --
BEHAR: No, no.
(CROSSTALK)
NICE: Rob, what`s happening? I`m missing something.
BEHAR: He`s not. I think we should fix her up George Lopez so she doesn`t have to change her name.
JANNEY: She was just voted the sexiest person in "People" magazine -- most beautiful person.
(CROSSTALK)
SHUTER: The most beautiful person. She`s absolutely stunning. She almost looks like an avatar. She doesn`t look beautiful, she`s so different.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Before we go, don`t forget, CNN and HLN are the very first news networks in the United States to stream 24-hour news online and on mobile. Which means even if you`re not sitting in front of a TV, you can watch live, including breaking news. Check out CNN.com/video to find out how.
END
