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Joy Behar Page
Warren Jeffs Gets Life Sentence; Arnold "Survived" Maria?; Interview With Gloria Steinem
Aired August 09, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Warren Jeffs sentenced after being convicted of having sex with minors, but Joy wants to know if the polygamous sect leader will still be able to preach from behind bars.
And Arnold Schwarzenegger is spotted wearing a shirt that says "I survived Maria". Joy will tell you if she thinks that`s a sorry attempt at a joke.
Plus feminist icon, Gloria Steinem chats with Joy about women in power in the wake of the Dominique Strauss-Kahn scandal. That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: I`m in a good mood today. Why? Because that monster, Warren Jeffs, was sentenced to life in prison after he was found guilty last week of sexually abusing two young girls. Under Texas law, the rapist has to serve at least 45 years behind bars. That would make him 100 before he could be eligible for parole. Yes.
Joining me are three people who have followed this trial very closely: Brent Jeffs, a nephew abused by Warren Jeffs, and he is the author of "Lost Boy"; Michael Watkiss, an investigative reporter for Phoenix affiliate KTVT-TV, who was at the trial; and Carolyn Jessop, a former victim of the FLDS polygamist sect and the author of "Escape".
Michael, the jury kept breaking down in tears during the sentencing phase of the trial. Was anybody in the courtroom surprised by this sentence?
MICHAEL WATKISS, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, KTVK-TV: I don`t think there`s a person in Texas who was surprised by this trial. The last few days have been nothing short of gut wrenching, as prosecutors really unloaded everything that they found out about Mr. Jeffs, far beyond the two young victims who were, of course, the nucleus of his conviction last week.
BEHAR: Right. You know, the prosecution entered a document into evidence in which Jeffs says if the world knew -- wait a second -- "If the world knew this is what I was doing, they would hang me from the highest tree." It`s just unbelievable. He knew exactly what he was doing. It`s an admission of guilt, is it not, Michael?
WATKISS: Well, I would think that Mr. Jeffs at this point is very grateful that that was not on the table for this jury, because in all likelihood, he had so alienated and angered these people over the course of the last two weeks. If they could have strung him up, I believe some of those jurors probably would have voted to do so.
BEHAR: There are going to be more prosecutions coming down the pike for this sect. Are we not going to see those?
WATKISS: Four more prosecutions with Mr. Jeffs` conviction today. Texas prosecutors and law officers have successfully prosecuted and sent to prison eight FLDS men, including Mr. Jeffs. They still have four more prosecutions.
And we ask the prosecutor, Eric Nichols, will there be more prosecutions on the strength of what they`ve learned in this, the complicity of the parents? And he said, "We just can`t comment at this point."
BEHAR: Ok. Now, Brent --
BRENT JEFFS, NEPHEW ABUSED BY WARREN JEFFS: Yes.
BEHAR: -- you testified that your uncle raped you when you were 5 years old. Now, do you feel that justice has been done in this case?
JEFFS: Oh, absolutely, to the fullest degree. All of the Texas authorities out here have done such an amazing job in keeping this all together. Justice has been served and I could not be anymore happy than I am now.
BEHAR: Thank you. And Carolyn, your stepdaughter was one of the young girls this trial focused on. Have you had any contact with her?
CAROLYN JESSOP, FORMER FLDS VICTIM: No, absolutely none. She`s vaporized. I have no idea where she is and I don`t even know if she`s safe.
BEHAR: Have you had -- you`ve had no -- so you`ve had no contact with her at all?
JESSOP: Absolutely none. And that is the nature. The FLDS, if you leave the group, you are not allowed to have any contact with family members still in the group.
This trial broke my heart. What happened to her is just heartbreaking. It shouldn`t have happened. However, I commend the authorities in Texas, I commend the state. I mean, they -- justice was served today and it`s just been a long time coming.
BEHAR: Good.
Now, Brent, let me talk to you about something. This guy, Jeffs, I can`t even say his name. We call him "the rapist" around here. He was taking 12, 13, and 14-year-old girls as his wives. Do you happen to know if your uncle gave away his own daughters to other men in return, his own children?
JEFFS: You know, I wouldn`t know that, you know, by hand, but I bet he would have. I mean, this guy was capable of anything. And he knew that he was capable of anything when he was under the rule under this. I mean he could do anything he wanted. He had full reins to go anywhere he wanted, spend whatever amount of money he wanted and do whatever he wanted to these young girls, and even these young boys.
BEHAR: Well, that just shows you he was a pedophile, because he didn`t care if it was a boy or a girl. I mean, it`s just disgusting.
Brent, we also keep hearing speculation that one of his brothers will take over. How many brothers does he have?
JEFFS: You know, I think he has 30 plus brothers. His brother -- yes, it`s a possibility that he could take over. Who knows from here on out after what has happened to Warren if any of these guys dare to stand up and take over this church. I daresay that they`re going to think twice about it.
BEHAR: What about your father? Is he still a member of the sect?
JEFFS: No, he is not.
BEHAR: He`s not? He`s out?
JEFFS: No, he -- yes, he`s been out -- we left about when I was 15 years old and I`m 28 now. So we`ve all -- my dad and my mom, most of all of us brothers and sisters have been out since then. So it`s been quite the amazing support system that I`ve had back home, you know, watching me and standing right behind my back.
BEHAR: When this abuse was happening to you, your father was there in the sect, right? Did he try to protect you from this or did he -- anything like that, or did he just go along with it, because he was brainwashed as well?
JEFFS: Well, he -- I mean he did the best he could in protecting me, but I never talked about it. I never said anything, so how was he ever supposed to know, you know, something like this was going on until, you know, later in life when I did finally decide to talk about it.
My parents were very, very, very protective of every one of us kids. And if they would have known this happened to us when we were young, I think things would have been totally different.
BEHAR: You know, Michael, you hear about these horrible stories and you wonder when the parents do find out about it why there aren`t more murders, frankly, you know? It`s amazing --
WATKISS: Well, I think --
BEHAR: Go ahead.
WATKISS: Yes, but I think that just shows the level of commitment of the faithful followers, you know, and they fear for their own salvation. And you and I and sort of the outside, perhaps more sophisticated world think that you can`t really believe in that sort of very literal heaven and hell.
But these folks do believe that. It`s a powerful mojo that this guy was able to put on his followers. And I think it shows you -- and this is the difficulty that we`re going to have from here on out. There are still a lot of people who are every bit as faithful, now view Mr. Jeffs as a martyr to their cause.
And having pursued this for as long as I have, my big concern is, now what? It didn`t start with this trial. It`s not going to end with this trial. There`s still, you know, lots of women and children in still very vulnerable situations, inside this community. And I`m hoping that we have, in fact, reached critical mass and we`re not going to say, oh, my goodness, next time something like this explodes. Because if we do, these guys are going to go right back to what they were doing before.
BEHAR: Exactly. You know, what scares me also is he`s got 35 years in prison, but he has a cell phone. Is he going to be able to run this -- his flock from behind bars, Michael?
WATKISS: Well, I think that the parameters on prisoners as opposed to jail inmates is much more strict here in Texas. And I think for the first year, you have virtually no contact with the outside world. Mr. Jeffs is going to find it much more difficult to act as the prophet inside a Lone Star State slammer. That`s for sure.
BEHAR: I know. And he`s not going to be a popular person. I don`t think that a lot of these inmates look very fondly upon child molesters, do they? So he might be in for some surprises.
JEFFS: They`re -- he`s going to be considered pond scum inside, and that`s exactly what he deserves.
BEHAR: That`s right.
Carolyn, you ran away from the cult, taking your eight children with you. Do you think your ex-husband should be prosecuted?
JESSOP: Actually, the good news is, he`s going to be prosecuted. And, yes, he absolutely should be prosecuted. He`s one of the next men up for trial. And he`s up for ten years for performing an illegal marriage.
I think that if any of these tapes are played for that jury, he`s going to get the full ten and he deserves it. I fought and fought and fought to protect my children, because I could see what was coming down. I could see these underage marriages. I knew my children were not safe.
And I knew Merrill Jessop was not the kind of man to protect his children. He was the kind to hand them over to perpetrators to be hurt and injured.
And the other thing I would like to point out is that, this stuff can`t be stopped if women can`t protect their children. It will continue.
BEHAR: But, you know, if the sect breaks down, which we`re hoping that the sect will break down now, right -- that`s what we would all like. And everybody will, you know, be able to find another life. But what happens, Carolyn, in your thinking process, what is going to happen to all these women and children? Where will they go?
JESSOP: Well, currently, the sect is becoming more secretive. Lyle locked everything up. Lyle Jeffs is stepping in to the position of leadership, Lyle Jeffs, who comes from the same cookie cutter as Warren, and he`s locked everything down. Even the businesses in that community had to get rid of their Internet so they could have no access to this trial and any information coming out.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I know but -- but -- I know, but -- but Michael, now that the FBI and the prosecutors are on it and the district attorney`s office is on it, are they going to be able to continue on this path, even with this guy, Lyle, now?
WATKISS: Well, the history of American polygamy is groups splintering off group splintering off group. There will be -- I think, a breakdown and some members are going to fall -- leave this group, no doubt about it, but they`re also going to -- many will stay with Mr. Jeffs.
And you know, and maybe I just have sort of a twisted perspective that now spans nearly 30 years. There have been lots of law enforcement agents dropping in and out of this story, and that`s the great frustration. It never really reaches any point where anybody does anything significant.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well at least --
WATKISS: Today was a significant step.
BEHAR: Today, right, right.
JEFFS: Right.
BEHAR: So let`s -- yes.
JEFFS: Let me point out this. This is -- this is now on the map for the rest of the world to see. These guys are all out for everyone to see, so they better be careful for what they`re doing.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Right.
JEFFS: Even being more secretive. Because guess what, we`re going to find out.
WATKISS: Ignorance is not an excuse anymore.
BEHAR: No.
Ok. Well, I think it was a good day today, anyway. And congratulations on the vindication to all of you. And good luck to you both. Thanks.
We`ll be right back.
WATKISS: Thank you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: TMZ got these photos of Arnold Schwarzenegger exercising in California wearing an old gag t-shirt that reads "I survived Maria." On a scale of one to Anthony Weiner, how stupid is this?
Here to discuss this and other pop culture stories in the news are Joe Levy, editor-in-chief of "Maxim" magazine; Judy Gold, comedienne and the star of the "Judy Show: My Life as the Sit-com"; and Howard Bragman, celebrity publicist and founder of "15 Minutes".
Howard, what is "15 Minutes", anyway?
HOWARD BRAGMAN, CELEBRITY PUBLICIST: It`s a PR firm.
BEHAR: Oh.
BRAGMAN: And it`s basically my attention span, so --
BEHAR: Oh I see.
BRAGMAN: It was named after that.
(CROSSTALK)
JUDY GOLD, COMEDIAN: And that`s how long his clients stay with him as well.
BRAGMAN: Just Paula Abdul, ok? One problem.
BEHAR: Ok. Ok, so how -- how stupid is this?
GOLD: Ok, I don`t know if you know that his housekeeper was wearing a shirt that said "I cleaned Arnold`s house and all I got was a stupid kid."
BRAGMAN: You know what, it`s just plain disrespectful, is what it is. It`s just disrespectful. The public is not on his side. You look at the polls on all Web sites, 80 percent in her favor that he`s a butthead about this.
BEHAR: Right, right.
GOLD: 80 percent, it should be 100 percent?
BEHAR: Yes.
BRAGMAN: Just play it a little classier.
GOLD: I mean doesn`t he have another t-shirt? Doesn`t he have a gym in his house? I mean, what is he doing there?
BEHAR: It really is unbelievable isn`t it?
JOE LEVY, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, "MAXIM" MAGAZINE: It`s amazing. It`s absolutely amazing.
BEHAR: Yes.
LEVY: The story is supposed to be how they`re getting along and they celebrated a son`s birthday together and their kid has been sick and they bonded and then --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Right.
LEVY: -- hey, I`ll go out in public wearing a t-shirt that insults the woman who I betrayed.
BEHAR: I know it`s --
(CROSSTALK)
LEVY: Smart. Very smart.
BEHAR: -- it`s really, on a scale, it`s really up there.
Howard, what about his image? This doesn`t help to repair his image? So why do it in that case? He`s not stupid, is he?
BRAGMAN: Well, I will tell you, his core audience of young teenage guys and guys in their 20s, they probably think it`s cool. They could care less about something like this.
But the truth is, people in Hollywood who are making the decisions and producers and agents, it`s really distasteful for them and they`d like him to clean it up and nobody in Hollywood feels good about what he did.
BEHAR: But you know, I read it that he and Maria are very friendly, they`re talking, they`re in the car together.
GOLD: Well, then she`s an idiot.
BEHAR: Maybe she`s so used to men cheating because she`s a Kennedy.
GOLD: Well, the whole Kennedy family.
BEHAR: Right. It may be nothing to her. It`s like a no brainer. Don`t you think?
GOLD: Yes, right.
LEVY: Maybe she is used to his very subtle German sense of humor.
GOLD: Austrian.
LEVY: Austrian. Oh God I`m sorry.
GOLD: Austrian.
LEVY: Oh, now, they`re going to come for me.
BEHAR: There`s an oxymoron.
GOLD: Yes, right.
BEHAR: German sense of humor.
LEVY: That`s it -- this is what I`m saying.
BEHAR: Ok now, moving on, critics are accusing "Newsweek" of sexism and liberal bias after the magazine publisher -- published rather an unflattering photo of Republican presidential candidate Michele Bachmann on its cover with a headline, "Queen of Rage".
You think that`s bad, you should have seen my "Hustler" cover, they made me look like a real slut.
LEVY: Although, oddly enough, the headline was exactly the same, wasn`t it? It was -- wasn`t it? On your "Hustler" coverage, "Queen of Rage".
BEHAR: "Queen of Rage".
GOLD: No wonder she has rage, she hasn`t been laid since she got married.
BRAGMAN: He`s wearing the gay change group. Please leave him alone. He`s changing.
GOLD: Yes.
BEHAR: Well, you know, we don`t -- we don`t really know the truth of that, so --
GOLD: I do.
BEHAR: How do you know?
GOLD: I`m gay and I just know. If you think I get it --
BEHAR: You have gaydar from her husband?
GOLD: I have gaydar, let me tell you something. That is the face of someone praying the gay away. That is what they look like for praying the gay away.
BEHAR: Well, it`s kind of a creepy picture of Michele, isn`t it? I mean do you think they`re trying to deliberately make her look crazy? You have the magazine.
LEVY: Yes, of course they`re trying to deliberately make her look -- look crazy. Or they could just go with publishing some of her statements, which would also make her look crazy.
Here is -- here is the thing, though. "Newsweek," in their defense, put nine pictures online of her out on the campaign trail, shaking hands with people, ordering breakfast.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
LEVY: And every single one of them, she`s like, good to see you. I`ll have the eggs. It`s like the crazy eyes are her thing.
BEHAR: So what -- what is that? Is that just a genetic defect?
BRAGMAN: No, no. She`s crazy, Joy. Ok, she`s crazy.
GOLD: At least she`s looking in the right direction. You know that`s -- that`s --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
BRAGMAM: Look towards the light. It looks like close encounters to me -- it really did it was like --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: But do you think that "Newsweek" has an anti-Republican bias?
BRAGMAN: No, I think they have a pro-publicity bias, and I think Tina Brown is kind of a genius.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: She`s trying to sell that magazine?
BRAGMAN: Well, she`s trying to make people aware that this thing exists called magazines. Sorry Joe.
(CROSSTALK)
LEVY: No, no, no. This is -- that you are exactly right. We are talking about the cover of "Newsweek" magazine, which hasn`t happened in what -- a decade or so.
So this is a big -- this is a big deal. And it is not the first time we`ve been talking about it. She did that creepy Diana -- what would Princess Diana look like now, they aged a picture of Di.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Right.
GOLD: Yes they can do that now.
(CROSSTALK)
LEVY: And so she -- she`s definitely going out there and doing these covers that stir up some controversy.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Tina is no dummy.
But what about -- they`ve also been accused of sexism. What -- do you think it`s sexist? I mean, we also have the pictures of John McCain in his sailor`s uniform, or whatever he was --
(CROSSTALK)
BRAGMAN: I was involved with Howard Dean.
BEHAR: Yes.
BRAGMAN: Do you remember when he was in the room screaming into the mike?
GOLD: Really, Howard Dean?
BEHAR: Yes.
GOLD: Yes.
BEHAR: We`re going to go to Rhode Island.
(CROSSTALK)
BRAGMAN: The media, right -- well, if you were in the room, you never heard that, and I think the media made him look crazy, I think they just like to make politicians look crazy. I don`t think it`s (INAUDIBLE), it didn`t read that to me.
GOLD: I think politicians make politicians look crazy.
LEVY: And let`s also remember --
(CROSSTALK)
GOLD: They show awful pictures of Obama. I mean, you see so many awful pictures of him.
LEVY: Oh look, I mean this -- this whole thing with Bachmann is upsetting people whose idea of a quiet Sunday afternoon is drawing a Hitler mustache on the picture of Obama.
BEHAR: Right. Right.
LEVY: So. But the -- the thing is, we`re talking about "Newsweek" which a -- which a couple of months ago, put Mitt Romney`s head on the poster from the Book of Mormon. So I`m saying, they make fun of guys as well as women.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: But that doesn`t say anything. I mean --
LEVY: Really? Because it looked like they were making fun of him to me. I`m not sure what makes --
GOLD: He`s a Mormon.
BEHAR: Didn`t they just have a picture of Sarah Palin --
LEVY: That was the respectful way to treat the fact that he was a Mormon or a respectful way to treat that he`s a presidential candidate? I mean what makes this sexist? All I`m saying is they do it to men and they do it to women.
BRAGMAN: You didn`t see Joe Lieberman on "Fiddler on the Roof" posters?
LEVY: I actually thought --
BEHAR: We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Ok. I`m back with my panel.
Now, rapper Kanye West said he sometimes feels as hated as Hitler during a ten-minute onstage rant at a music festival in England. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KANYE WEST, RAPPER: I walk through the hotel, I walk down the street, and people look at me like I`m (EXPLETIVE DELETED) insane. Like I`m Hitler.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Why is it always Hitler? Why not that -- why not that bachelor?
GOLD: I mean don`t flatter yourself.
BEHAR: Why not Osama bin Laden.
GOLD: Right.
BEHAR: Why not Saddam Hussein.
LEVY: Why not Michele Bachmann? People look at me like I`ve got crazy eyes, like I`m Michele Bachmann.
BEHAR: But I mean, why is it they always pick on Hitler? It doesn`t work.
LEVY: Why do they always pick on Hitler?. I can think of 6 million reasons.
BEHAR: Why do they always pick Hitler, ok?
GOLD: well, that is like the epitome of someone you would hate, but I think people only hate him as much as they hate Mel Gibson.
BRAGMAN: In PR terms, just don`t say Hitler. Even if you go, Hitler is a bad guy. Don`t say Hitler, ok.
BEHAR: Ok. You`re the PR guy, what should we say? Who should we use?
BRAGMAN: You don`t even need to use a person --
(CROSSTALK)
GOLD: Yes, like kids will know who Pol Pot is?
BEHAR: Pol Pot.
BRAGMAN: I feel like I`m hated like some criminal, you know, or some bad person but just don`t say Hitler, ok?
LEVY: This has gone in a very strange direction. We`re trying to figure out who we should use as a universal figure of hatred, besides Hitler? That`s what we`re talking about?
BEHAR: What is it with Kanye?
LEVY: There we go.
BEHAR: He seems to get into a lot of trouble.
BRAGMAN: He loves it.
BEHAR: Why does he love it so much? For publicity?
BRAGMAN: Because for young people -- controversy used to hurt careers, now it inflates careers. Remember Chris Brown threw a chair at the window at "Good Morning America`s" dressing room and his album comes out number one. It`s a different world we live in.
GOLD: I just don`t understand why --
BEHAR: It`s not a pretty world, is it?
GOLD: No.
BRAGMAN: Controversy is like yeast now, it raises a career, unfortunately.
BEHAR: And it gives you an infection also.
(CROSSTALK)
GOLD: I guess that joke got nowhere.
BEHAR: That`s because you were talking at the same time.
GOLD: I know, I`m sorry, Joy. I`m sorry.
BEHAR: Ok. Now let`s talk about Ann Hathaway. Remember Ann Hathaway and James Franco bombed last year at the Oscars? You can rest easy, because Hathaway says she`ll never host again. She says there`s a lot of things you have to put in place in order to deliver a really, really great well crafted show. And once was enough. She doesn`t think she has the talent to do it. What do you think?
LEVY: Who am I to disagree? I actually enjoyed Ann Hathaway at the Oscars, because she was like an excited theater geek with big boobs. And I saw nothing wrong with either of those things.
BEHAR: Oh, come on, it was --
(CROSSTALK)
LEVY: I actually enjoyed. I`m the only one who did. Please talk to the people who didn`t.
BEHAR: All right.
GOLD: Let me tell you something. I love when -- I think it`s great that she can admit, I can`t do this. So many people try stand-up comedy or they try to host things. It`s not as easy as you thought it was, is it?
BEHAR: That`s right.
BRAGMAN: And hosting -- being a great actor and hosting are two different skill sets.
BEHAR: I know.
GOLD: Right.
BRAGMAN: And very few people could do it.
BEHAR: So maybe they should just keep it to comedians, like they used to for a hundred years.
BRAGMAN: Johnny Carson did it for years.
BEHAR: Johnny Carson, Billy Crystal was very good. Who would you suggest this year? How about you Judy?
GOLD: Joy Behar.
BEHAR: No, no, you have to be in the movies.
GOLD: You do. You have to be like in a movie.
BEHAR: Because you stand in front of people in the movies and they`re like, who are you?
BRAGMAN: The Alec Baldwin/Steve Martin year, I thought those two had great chemistry. They were a lot of fun.
BEHAR: Yes. Steve Martin could do it alone also.
GOLD: Right.
BEHAR: He`s very funny.
GOLD: He`s brilliant. That`s right.
BEHAR: And he actually -- he`s in the moment. That`s what it takes.
LEVY: I would like to see Kanye West host the Oscars.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Ok, ok.
BRAGMAN: And Michele Bachmann. I think together --
LEVY: That`s a good one.
BEHAR: Ok. Let me plug you guys. Thanks very much.
Catch Judy in "The Judy Show: My Life is a Sit-Com" at the DR-2 theater in New York which has been extended through October 23rd. Good for you, Judy.
GOLD: Thank you Joy.
BEHAR: And watch Joe Levy this Friday at 9:00 p.m. on the premiere of ABC`s "Karaoke Battle USA", how the mighty have fallen.
We`ll be right back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Up next, iconic feminist Gloria Steinem is here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Gloria Steinem began the fight for women`s rights nearly five decades ago. Oh, my God. And today at 77 years old, the legendary feminist has not let up one bit. She`s the subject of a new HBO documentary called "Gloria: In Her Own Words." Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GLORIA STEINEM: What we are talking about is a revolution and not a reform.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gloria Steinem, she is the most visible symbol of the women`s movement.
STEINEM: You understand it`s not a real (ph) exchange. We`re not trying to do to men what men have done to us. We`re trying to humanize both roles.
Every generation has its own names. More than a third of this march is women under 25 years old. People who empower other people.
CROWD: We are women! Watch us vote!
STEINEM: Susan B. Anthony said our job is not to make young women grateful, it`s to make them ungrateful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Welcome to the show, my hero, Gloria Steinem. So great to have you here, Gloria.
STEINEM: Oh, Joy, I`ve been waiting to be -- to get here.
BEHAR: You have?
STEINEM: Yes.
BEHAR: Before we sat down, I said to you, do you mind if I tell your age, and you said, no, you must. And I don`t think I`m as advanced as you are, because I don`t like to tell my age.
STEINEM: Well, we ought to all be able to make a choice, but I always tell my age, because I once lied myself two years younger, because my sister had told all her six children that I was two years younger, because -- and I felt like such a jerk.
BEHAR: Oh I see.
STEINEM: When I became 40, I said I was publicly 40, and people said, oh, you don`t look 40, and I said, but this is what 40 looks like. We`ve been lying so long, who would know. So ever since then -- it`s a form of coming out.
BEHAR: It is a form of coming out. And you know, the truth of the matter is, that I can`t help it, because it`s all over Wikipedia. Because some annoying, annoying guy at "People" magazine said, if you don`t tell us the truth, we`ll look it up at the DMV. You know? So I told the idiot the truth and this is the price I have to pay.
Anyway. So, 49, how does it look?
(LAUGHTER)
STEINEM: Like 35.
BEHAR: Like 35, right. So, in that clip, it said, what did it say? It said, Susan B. Anthony said our job is not to make young women grateful, it`s to make them ungrateful. Explain what that means?
STEINEM: First of all, gratitude never radicalized anybody, right? We didn`t -- I didn`t walk around saying, oh, thank you so much for the vote. I got mad at what was happening to me that was unjust. Also, I think that sometimes older women who didn`t get proper gratitude for their courage in their day tried to exact it from their daughters.
BEHAR: Oh.
STEINEM: Or from the daughter generation. And that`s a burden too. And finally, if they`re ungrateful, in the sense of moving forward and getting angry, that`s the point.
BEHAR: That`s the point.
STEINEM: That`s the point.
BEHAR: So it doesn`t bother you when some women say, oh, my God, these young girls, they don`t realize what we did, the marching, the sacrifices, you don`t care about that? Let them be angry--
STEINEM: Well, I care in the sense that we should know our history. That`s very important. I didn`t know mine. There was this one sentence that said women were given the vote, thank you very much.
BEHAR: Thanks a lot.
STEINEM: In my whole textbook. So, yes, it`s important to know history, but I really think it`s unfair to expect from the next generation the gratitude that should have been in our generation. That`s a kind of burden. And it makes you think that these young women are not as great as they really are. Because they`re moving forward.
BEHAR: They are moving forward. And they`re not necessarily conscious of it all the time, I don`t think.
STEINEM: Well, no, and that`s good. But, they have better -- I don`t know if I can say this on this show, [EXPLETIVE DELETED] detectors--
BEHAR: It`s OK.
STEINEM: -- than we did. Because they have higher expectations.
BEHAR: On the other hand, I mean, when you look around and you see these shows, "Girls Gone Wild," how, you know, some of these little starlets, they couldn`t make it without a sex tape. I mean, it`s unheard of in our day. And you know, the high heels are back, the push-up bras. They`re getting their body parts replaced. It doesn`t look as though they`re advancing.
STEINEM: No, I think that that`s -- I mean, everybody has to be able to make a choice, but I do worry about the plastic surgery, especially for very young girls, you know, 16-year-olds getting breast implants, which have a 25 percent complication rate, 25 percent. And you`re 400 percent more likely to end up in the hospital. I mean --
BEHAR: With breast implants?
STEINEM: Yes.
BEHAR: And they can`t read the mammogram as easily too.
STEINEM: No, it has a, you know, a huge -- so it worries me most when it`s decided upon too young to really know what the implications are.
Of course, men are doing it too. It isn`t as if only women are doing it. But here`s the low point. I don`t know if it`s still on, "Bridalplasty--"
BEHAR: "Bridalplasty." Yes, they just get all these things--
(CROSSTALK)
STEINEM: -- but it was a competition to see who could get the most body parts done in time for their -- hello?
BEHAR: That`s like crazy. I mean, that girl, Heidi Montel -- is that her name? Montag, that`s it, Heidi Montag. She had so many things done, and she did it in a day or two days or something. It`s really frightening what kids are doing I think sometimes.
STEINEM: It gets to be -- it does get to be an addiction, to think if you fix your body, you can fix your life.
BEHAR: Oh, I know.
STEINEM: Which doesn`t work.
BEHAR: Like my friend Lewis (ph) always says, it`s an inside job.
STEINEM: That`s great.
BEHAR: I want to ask you about something that was in the news today. Because we were talking before about a cover on "Newsweek" magazine of Michele Bachmann, which I can show you there. Can you see it up there on the monitor?
STEINEM: Yes. I saw it on my computer screen, anyway.
BEHAR: There`s a controversy over the cover. I mean, the NOW president, I don`t really know her name at the moment.
STEINEM: Terry O`Neill.
BEHAR: Terry O`Neill, that`s right. She says that it`s sexist because it`s never done to a man. They made her look a little crazy, Michele. But some people are saying that in a lot of pictures she looks a little crazy. And do you think that it`s against a female? Maybe it`s against sanity, but is it against a woman?
STEINEM: Well, the question is the cover. And Terry O`Neill was quoting me accurately.
BEHAR: She was quoting you?
STEINEM: Well, she`s quoting me about the test, you know, in the sense that, would it be done to a man too, is a way you can tell whether it`s sexist, or would it be done to a white person? You know.
BEHAR: Oh, I see.
STEINEM: And I utterly agree, she`s right about the test. I personally feel this cover is kind of a borderline case. I mean, I don`t think it`s like a big issue.
BEHAR: Because you think a man would be covered the same way?
STEINEM: I don`t know. But in any case, in the larger scope of human events, I don`t think that whether her eyes were too much open or not on this cover is a --
BEHAR: Yes.
STEINEM: But I think in a way, I don`t know -- I mean, you know, I don`t know if this is what Terry was thinking, but I think that the right- wing anti-feminist women so rarely give us a chance to say anything positive about them, because they`re saying such bananas things, that in order to prove you`re objective and even-handed, you ended up, you know, with this kind of borderline case.
BEHAR: Yes. It`s sort of ironic that a lot of very extreme right- wing conservative women are in powerful positions. You want women to be there, but a lot of the things that they are proposing are anti-female.
STEINEM: But that`s why they`re there. I mean, the minute that Hillary Clinton got all those votes in the primary and did so well, I think I won $50 on it. But, you know, the Republicans will have a female vice president, because they don`t understand that it`s really about issues and changing -- it`s not about getting a job for one woman, it`s about making life better for all women. And Michele Bachmann and Sarah Palin, their voters -- you know, I want to see them treated fairly and I want them defeated. But fairly.
BEHAR: That`s right. You can disagree with them politically, but you do want them to be treated fairly.
STEINEM: But it`s not just politically. They are there because they oppose their group. If you have a big social justice movement, you create jobs for people who sell it out. It`s just the way it is. I mean, we had Phyllis Schlafly. She herself--
BEHAR: I remember her.
STEINEM: Yes. Well, she herself said Sarah Palin is just a younger version of me. You know, there`s always going to be a Sarah Palin or a Michele Bachmann.
BEHAR: And it works for the movement on that side, you`re saying.
STEINEM: Well, no, I`m not so sure.
BEHAR: You think that she could win if she was running?
STEINEM: No, no. But I do think it kind of takes the heart out of you to see someone who looks like you and behaves like them, do you know what I mean?
BEHAR: Yes. It does. But you know, the other --
STEINEM: But it`s inevitable. It`s inevitable.
BEHAR: What about the fact that people talk about how attractive they are. Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann, are both very good-looking women by American standards.
STEINEM: But that`s also why they`re there. Because as Rush Limbaugh, your friend and mine, said that he was for Sarah Palin because she wore skirts and had good legs, so she should be vice president. He was against Hillary Clinton for president because she wore pantsuits and must have bad legs -- this was his whole basis.
BEHAR: Yes, yes.
STEINEM: So they all, the right-wing women whose electoral records I`ve looked into, have a greater percentage of male voters than female voters.
BEHAR: A-ha.
STEINEM: A-ha. The plot thins.
BEHAR: So there you go.
STEINEM: So the gender gap works for, and most of the women in Congress, are feminists, are supportive of equality. There`s Barbara Boxer, Barbara Mikulski, Maxine Waters. You know, just tons of--
BEHAR: Nancy Pelosi.
STEINEM: Yes. So these women are newsworthy because they`re rare.
BEHAR: I see.
STEINEM: Right. I mean, they`re in the news, but not in the majority. Let`s put it that way.
BEHAR: I got you. OK. Stay right there. We`re just getting started. More with Gloria Steinem on the way.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These women are not kidding. They are deadly serious. What they are demanding is a greater share in the political power of this nation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Females ought to stay home, have kids, and keep the house clean.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I like being treated as a lady. I like having a man hold my coat, open the door for me, all the little things that I think are important to a woman.
PHYLLIS SCHLAFLY, STOP-ERA: Sure, the women libbers (ph) are sincere, the homosexuals are sincere, but they want to change the supreme law of our land.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That`s from the HBO`s new documentary "Gloria: In Her Own Words." And I`m back with the legendary feminist, Gloria Steinem. I wonder how Phyllis Schlafly must feel about the gay marriage thing that just went through in New York?
STEINEM: Isn`t her husband -- sorry, her husband -- her son, gay, I think?
BEHAR: I think her son is, yes.
STEINEM: So maybe she`s changed her--
BEHAR: You think so?
STEINEM: I don`t know. She didn`t while she was being vocal, but I don`t know.
BEHAR: A lot of times when it hits home -- it`s like Nancy Reagan came out for stem cell research after Ronnie got the Alzheimer`s. A day late and a dollar short, but she did say it, but it had to hit home.
STEINEM: Yes. We should be able to empathize with other people, though.
BEHAR: We should. I believe it`s a test of maturity and mental health. You`ve had your fair share of critics, and in this documentary, there`s one moment that was particularly disturbing. Watch this, on Larry King`s show.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don`t ever have children, lady.
STEINEM: Well, it`s too late for me to have children.
(CROSSTALK)
LARRY KING, CNN: Ma`am, why are you so angry?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why am I so angry? I have said for the last 15 years that Gloria Steinem should rot in hell for what she started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Isn`t that a charming, charming call? You kept a straight face. I was watching you and --
STEINEM: Well, I come from the Midwest, you know, we don`t know how not to keep a straight face.
BEHAR: Yes. But I was thinking, did you feel pain at that moment?
STEINEM: No, I did, it was -- it`s a shock. And I certainly -- I was hurt by it, but two things happened later. One was that I discovered they had picked the call, you know, to make controversy, but the other thing was that I realized that we were in an era still at that time --
BEHAR: 1990, yes.
STEINEM: Yes, when women thought that if you didn`t make the same choice you did, you were somehow criticizing their choice.
BEHAR: Right. That`s interesting.
STEINEM: So if you didn`t become a homemaker, you were criticizing -- and I think now that it`s much more clear that we`re talking about the power to make choices. And that, actually, only the women`s movement has talked about the value, the economic and social value of home making and tried to get, you know, retirement and social -- you know, benefits for women who work at home.
BEHAR: I remember those days, and even before that, when people would think that, oh, I was just -- is there something wrong with being a wife and mother? As if the feminists put it down. You weren`t putting it down, you were just encouraging more, I think. You know, it was more about, what else do you want to do, not just that.
STEINEM: Well, and also saying, if it`s great, which it is -- I mean, raising baby humans is a lot more interesting than most of what--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It is very interesting, yes.
STEINEM: -- then, you know, men would want to do it too, and many men do. And that`s -- you know, I think the next big frontier is men raising children as much as women.
BEHAR: Aren`t they doing a little better than they used to?
STEINEM: Yes, they are.
BEHAR: My father never even changed a diaper, never even talked to me.
STEINEM: No, men are doing much, more than their fathers, but women are still doing twice as much.
BEHAR: I know.
STEINEM: So this relates to everything, including Hillary Clinton. You know, because --
BEHAR: But how much responsibility do women have, really, in that? That they don`t really want to give it up? It`s like--
STEINEM: You`re right, you`re right. It`s the get out of my kitchen syndrome.
BEHAR: Exactly.
STEINEM: It`s the, sort of, you know, this is my sphere of power and go home. You know? And so we have to recognize that and realize that we`re doing our children the ultimate big favor to allow them to see that men can be just as loving and nurturing as women. So -- but we`re kind of halfway there. Like, we know that women can do what men can do. I think most folks agree with that now.
BEHAR: I think they do.
STEINEM: But we don`t know yet that men can do what women do. That`s the next place we`re going.
BEHAR: That sounds like the men will think, oh, I can`t do that, that`s sissy work. They won`t want to do it.
STEINEM: But that`s just roles. It`s like us saying, I don`t want to be a mechanic that gets four times as much money than me with a B.A., because that`s macho work, you know? We`re human beings. And what we share is, obviously, huge, and what divides us is infinitesimal.
BEHAR: That`s true. It`s like the chimps, too.
STEINEM: Right.
BEHAR: 98 percent of the DNA is the same.
STEINEM: So imagine men and women, right?
BEHAR: Exactly. You know, you also -- there was something that was said in it that interested me about -- that just struck me about how our generation, which I`m right behind you --
STEINEM: You could be my daughter, you know.
BEHAR: No, I couldn`t.
STEINEM: No? Close.
BEHAR: No, I`ll tell you later. But I think that we were doing something that our mothers didn`t do. Doing something that they couldn`t do. And it was -- and I don`t think that women feel that way anymore. Like, our generation did what we had to do, and I don`t know that the daughters feel that they have to do what we did not do anymore. So that was a major accomplishment.
STEINEM: Yes, no, and I think that, furthermore, a lot of us, certainly applies to me, were living out the unlived lives of our mothers.
BEHAR: That`s what I was --
(CROSSTALK)
STEINEM: Because my mother wanted to be a journalist and was a pioneer journalist and then had to give it all up. I think now the daughters of women who had to do two full-time jobs, which is not possible, are much more likely to say, no, I want -- if I`m going to have children, I want to have a partner who`s a full partner and really a parent. So it`s really -- right.
BEHAR: But I think that we did. My mother wanted to be a singer, unfortunately, you know, she couldn`t sing. But -- no, no. She actually had a pretty good voice, but you know, but I had to be the performer, to satisfy that need that she had. You know, she ended up -- because she came over from Italy when she was 13 and worked in a sewing machine factory.
STEINEM: That`s so brave. That`s so brave--
BEHAR: Very brave. Sad in a way, too.
STEINEM: Changing your country and your language.
BEHAR: It was very hard for her.
STEINEM: I have such respect for that.
BEHAR: I do too.
STEINEM: But it`s also a little hard on the -- that we both lived out our mother`s dreams is a good thing, but they weren`t our dreams, necessarily, if you see what I mean.
BEHAR: I don`t even know what my real dream would have been, to tell you the truth, and I don`t know if you know, so that`s --
STEINEM: You know, it`s interesting, if mothers live out their own lives, then daughters are free to find their unique selves and not feel they have to, you know, make up for what their mothers couldn`t do.
BEHAR: Exactly, well, that`s what I was driving at, too. That this next generation, our daughters, I think don`t have that need as much as we did and so they can be whoever they want.
STEINEM: No, it`s better.
BEHAR: It`s better.
OK, Gloria and I will be back after a short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Gloria Steinem. Gloria, you got married when you were 66 to -- I don`t know if people know this, but Christian Bale`s father. You married him. In the documentary he is very attractive and you seemed to be so in love with him, and unfortunately he passed away I think three years later.
STEINEM: Right.
BEHAR: I mean, it`s so -- what made you get married in the first place? And what a sad thing. You waited so many years before you finally jumped in.
STEINEM: Well, without -- we were in love and we were together, and that`s what was important, you know. But it`s not as if I`d been waiting my whole life--
BEHAR: To get married.
STEINEM: -- to get married or to fall in love, you know. Each person is unique in our lives. So I had loved other people, and they each were unique, and, you know, it wasn`t -- people treat it as if you waited -- no, it wasn`t like that for either one of us.
BEHAR: Right, right. But you were unique in the sense that you went through years when everybody else was getting married and you went the nonconventional way. And so--
STEINEM: No, I didn`t--
BEHAR: Where did you find that in yourself to be so unconventional?
STEINEM: Aversion. Marriage just seemed -- it`s just nothing I ever wanted to do.
BEHAR: I know, but--
STEINEM: And also along the way I read the laws and I discovered that I would give up my credit rating, my legal domicile, my last name, most of my civil rights, I said wait a minute. But now--
BEHAR: Yeah, hold on there.
STEINEM: But now we`ve changed the laws. We`ve spent 30 some years changing those laws. But David at 60 and me at 66, you know, we loved each other, we wanted to be together, we were together. But to get legally married, we wouldn`t have done except that he needed a green card.
BEHAR: Oh.
STEINEM: And other important thing is that my dear friend Wilma Mankiller was the chief of the Cherokee nation, offered us a Cherokee ceremony. Who can resist that?
BEHAR: I remember years ago Rosie Clooney said to me if you get married I`ll sing at your wedding. And I just couldn`t do it, I couldn`t do it at that time, and now she passed away. And now if I do it, I`ll just have some CDs.
STEINEM: CDs, right.
BEHAR: So I really have run out of time with you. I could just talk to you for hours and hours and hours. I mean, you don`t regret that you never had kids either, right?
STEINEM: No, not for a millisecond. But I just want to -- do I have time to thank you for being powerful and making people laugh?
BEHAR: Oh, thank you.
STEINEM: That is the power that women didn`t have. I was like a lowly (ph) comedy writer once. So I`m so aware how few women there are.
BEHAR: Well, they`re not encouraged to be funny because the men don`t like -- when I was growing up, the women who were considered to have a sense of -- a good sense of humor were the ones who laughed at their jokes.
STEINEM: Yes, yes, right, or laughed at themselves.
BEHAR: Or laughed at themselves. But I never really -- I was always funny in the family. They liked it and I just kept doing it. I never paid attention to that.
STEINEM: You know, laughter is the only free emotion.
BEHAR: Is that so?
STEINEM: Yes.
BEHAR: The best thing.
STEINEM: You can compel fear, certainly, you can even compel love, but you can`t compel laughter.
BEHAR: And on that note, thank you so much, Gloria.
STEINEM: Thank you.
BEHAR: The HBO documentary film "Gloria: In Her Own Words" debuts Monday, August 15th at 9 p.m. Thanks for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
