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CNN Live At Daybreak

Bush in Europe: Activists Argue Pros, Cons of President's Stance on Kyoto Protocol

Aired June 12, 2001 - 07:14   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: The president is packing five nations into six days of travel.

CNN White House correspondent John King is traveling with the president, and he joins us now from Madrid.

Good morning -- John.

JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Carol.

A very friendly welcome so far for President Bush on this, his first trip to Europe since taking office. As you noted, the president arrived here several hours ago, in Madrid. He has already seen King Juan Carlos, and at this hour is spending some time with the prime minister, Jose Maria Aznar, that the business discussions now. The president is speaking to the prime minister about a host of issues, shared interests between the United States and Spain; obviously, NATO security issues; and one of the controversies: The president hasn't seen them today, but there have been protests here in advance of his visit, including last night's protest by environmental groups here in Spain and across Europe.

They protest the president's opposition to the Kyoto Treaty on global warming. As a candidate for president, Mr. Bush said he would not support that treaty, but many of the European allies are upset. They want U.S. leadership in reducing the emissions of so-called greenhouse gases. Mr. Bush calls the treaty fatally flawed, in part he says because developing countries like China and India would be exempt.

He promises new research in the United States, and he promises to discuss this issue with the allies on this trip. But there's a great deal of skepticism from the allies, this a major challenge for the president on the environment and on other issues as well as he for the first time takes a leadership role in the U.S.-Europe relations as well as in the NATO alliance -- Carol.

LIN: So John, give us a bit of your analysis here. I mean, with President Bush going in with so many liabilities, and at odds on so many different issues, then what is his greatest asset?

KING: Mr. Bush believes his greatest asset is sitting down and looking these leaders in the eye. He met with European journalists before leaving the United States. And he said, Look, people are going to disagree with me on some of these issues; that's not a problem -- we can make that an opportunity. He said the Europeans would find him to be "a trustworthy friend" and that his administration would be steady and true, the administration hoping over time to ease some of the concerns about missile defense, get the NATO alliance to issue a statement this week moving a little bit closer to the U.S. position. They don't expect a breakthrough on this trip.

And Mr. Bush on the Kyoto Treaty, for example, says, Look, President Clinton signed that treaty protocol, but even he said he would never submit it to the United States Senate for approval. It is a nonstarter in the United States will be the president's message, and he will make the case that he's just simply being honest in urging the allies to step back, think again, and try to find an alternative. At the same time, he says he will convince the allies that he takes this issue quite seriously. That has been the biggest criticism, some European allies wondering if the president puts enough stock in their concerns about global climate change -- Carol.

LIN: Well, in the short run, personal charm can go a long way.

Thank you very much, John King, reporting live from Spain -- Colleen.

COLLEEN MCEDWARDS, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks very much, Carol.

And as John King was just was telling Carol, Mr. Bush is facing criticism for his plans to deal with global warming.

Joining us to debate this issue, from New York, Fred Krupp, executive director of the Environmental Defense Fund, and from Washington, Glenn Kelly, executive director of the Global Climate Coalition.

Gentlemen, thank you.

Mr. Bush said all kinds of adjectives for the Kyoto Protocol, one of them John King just mentioned was "fatally flawed." He's also called it unrealistic, saying that many of the targets can't be met by countries, that these targets were not even based on science.

Glenn, let me start with you. Has he got a point?

GLENN KELLY, GLOBAL CLIMATE COALITION: Oh, absolutely. The Kyoto Protocol was negotiated back in '97, and since then, the parties to it have been trying to negotiate some pretty fine details. However, time and again -- they get together twice a year to meet, and I attend these negotiations -- they are hopelessly adrift in these discussions and can't come up with an agreement.

So rather than keep the world deadlocked in what I like to call the Kyoto quagmire, the president has struck a very bold leadership initiative here, articulating very clearly the leadership role the United States intends to take on this serious matter.

MCEDWARDS: All right.

KELLY: The Kyoto Protocol is not the only approach to climate change, and we commend the president for it.

MCEDWARDS: All right, Fred, what's wrong with his position?

FRED KRUPP, ENVIRONMENTAL DEFENSE FUND: Well, actually, the world was on the verge of reaching agreement, the last time in came together in The Hague, on the rules to implement the Kyoto Protocol. So we really have been about to move forward.

I think what's puzzling about the president's position, and very regrettable, is that he says he wants developing countries involved and that he wants to use market incentives, but in fact, he turns his back on the Kyoto Protocol, which is the American, market-style way to approach the problem, and he rips up the agreement, which was negotiated in good faith by 180 nations. And I don't see another vehicle for involving developing nations other than the agreement that the world reached. So I think his position really doesn't make sense, it's illogical.

MCEDWARDS: Fred, the Kyoto Treaty doesn't include China and India. Isn't that a pretty significant omission?

KRUPP: Yes, ultimately, we do need to bring in the developing nations, like China and India. And the Kyoto Protocol provides a mechanism to do that. If the president were saying he would like to modify the agreement and bring these countries in sooner, that would be an understandable position. But he rejects the protocol and offers no constructive criticisms, no alternatives. He just says, my way or the highway. And that's not leadership, that's not what is going to engage the rest of the world.

You know, just last weak Pemex, the Mexican national oil company, took a cap on their greenhouse gas emissions. So developing nations are coming around. I wish the president would use his charm and good relationship with Vincente Fox to bring Mexico and some of these other countries in under the tent, instead of just standing aside and saying, not that way.

MCEDWARDS: OK, I want to get Glenn in here -- Glenn?

KELLY: Well, the fact is that, as I indicated before, the Kyoto Protocol is not the only way to deal with climate change. American business and industry has been at the forefront of this challenge for well over 25 years.

The president announced yesterday, in the Rose Garden at the White House, that his initiative is going to rely on several basic principles, the most important of which, in our view, is technology. The way that we find, use, develop, and put to work energy in this country is the way that we're going to tackle this problem over the long term.

I mean, the Kyoto Protocol, at best according to the expert scientists, would save about .02 degrees in the next 50 years, if the experts prove correct. So the Protocol itself, the parties -- and I disagree with Fred, earlier who said the world was about to reach agreement, in The Hague, in November. I was there. I was at those negotiations. And the Europeans, to a very large extent, are attempting to use the Kyoto Protocol as an economic instrument, rather than an environmental an energy...

(CROSSTALK)

MCEDWARDS: But you guys know the Kyoto Protocol is hugely popular in Europe. I know rates of compliance vary, but people in Europe see it as overdue. They see it as sophisticated, and they see Bush's opposition to it as a kind of symbol of America's unwillingness to cooperate. I guess it's a political question, but I know you're both up for it.

KRUPP: The reason that the Kyoto Protocol is hugely popular is because it represented the change from the voluntary approach under the Rio Agreement -- which didn't work: Emissions kept rising around the world -- and went to a mandatory approach. And I fear this is what the president doesn't like, the fact that we will actually have accountability.

And yet, this is what his education program is all about, accountability and flexibility. That's the Kyoto Protocol: There will be accountability, but also flexible, American-style incentives that will bring about the technology that Glenn says he wants to see.

MCEDWARDS: But Glenn, doesn't he have to provide an alternative, especially while he's in Europe?

KELLY: Well, he began doing that yesterday and laying out what the administration views as a long-term approach to this issue, because climate, after all, is going to be a long-term issue. It's going to be with us for many years to come.

The president structured that framework yesterday, in the White House. It's going to be a process that he's got involved a senior- level Cabinet review underway right now, developing these alternatives to the Kyoto Protocol. It really shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody in Europe that the president is opposed to the Protocol. It did come up several times during the campaign, including during a nationally televised debate at my alma mater, Washington University.

So now we've got to give him some room here. The administration has just come on board this year. They're staffing up. They're making good progress there, and I think the comprehensive approach that he laid out yesterday morning is a great basis to begin.

MCEDWARDS: All right, sorry. You just got the last work. Gentlemen, we have to leave it there. I apologize.

Glenn Kelly and Fred Krupp, thanks very much for your time this morning.

KRUPP: Thank you.

KELLY: Thank you.

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