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CNN Live At Daybreak

Israel Responds Quickly to Suicide Bombing

Aired August 10, 2001 - 08:12   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
COLLEEN MCEDWARDS, CNN ANCHOR: Israel's response to yesterday's restaurant bombing in Jerusalem was swift. It was political as well as military. Sixteen people died in the suicide bombing, including Shoshana Greenbaum, a pregnant New Jersey woman who had been studying in Israel.

In response, Israeli police seized Palestinian offices in predominantly Arab East Jerusalem, including Orient House, which the Palestinian political center, a powerful symbol for Palestinians who want their own state.

Israeli war planes destroyed a police building in the West Bank and Israeli tanks wiped out a Palestinian police outpost in Gaza as well. Now, officials, political leaders on both sides are commenting on the latest violence. You have heard President Bush comment on it as well, saying both sides have to get it together -- have to stop the violence before the peace process can move forward.

But what's the mood of the average Israeli and Palestinian?

Joining us now to talk about that, we've got Israeli writer and historian, Michael Bar Zohar, in Tel Aviv. And from Jerusalem, Mustafa Barghouti, who heads a Palestinian aid organization.

Thank you both for being here.

Michael, if I may start with you. What are people in Israel saying about this attack this morning? What are you hearing?

MICHAEL BAR ZOHAR, ISRAELI HISTORIAN: Well, the attack this morning is not satisfying exactly what the Israelis expected. They wanted to feel that Israel is hitting back at the headquarters of the Hamas and the Islamic Jihad movements, which have sworn out to wipe out Israel.

And as you know, we are going through a war in which this American casualty is the symbol, the pregnant young woman who was studying in Jerusalem, why does she have to pay for this conflict? And like her and all in this restaurant, there were six children killed out of 15 casualties we had. What all we want to achieve now is to achieve a cease-fire with the Palestinians, and go back to the negotiating table.

MCEDWARDS: And Mustafa, what does the average person tell you? And not the Palestinian, you know, political apparatus, but real people on the street. I mean, when they see those kinds of images, they see a male (ph) bomb -- a suicide bomber that went off. What do they say? Do they feel this is a legitimate way to press their demands, or no?

MUSTAFA BARGHOUTI, PALESTINIAN MEDICAL RELIEF: The overwhelming feeling is that we are fed up with occupation. We are fed up with this problem, and it must end. And the best way of ending it is ending occupation. You know, up to now we have lost about one percent of the total population; 610 Palestinians killed, 151 Israelis killed, and about 22,000 Palestinians injured.

This is -- if that had happened in the United States, you would be talking about 1,400,000 people injured and about 50,000 Palestinians killed in less than 10 months. This is too much (UNINTELLIGIBLE). So -- and we live in clusters of prisons. Every city and village has become a prison surrounded by Israeli army. And on top of that, the F-16 jet fighters come in and respond to an individual attack by attacking residential areas creating horror for thousands and thousands of people. I cannot describe to you the feelings of my...

MCEDWARDS: But Mustafa -- Mustafa, please just...

BARGHOUTI: Yes.

MCEDWARDS: ... please just describe that a little bit. I mean, how are Palestinians living? How much fear is there?

BARGHOUTI: Well, you see, as I said, the country is cut now into 220 clusters. It is cut by settlers and by Israeli army. Women are unable to reach hospitals to give birth. The biggest fear in people's lives now is for a woman -- a pregnant woman who is about to give birth. Up to now, seven women have to give birth at checkpoints. Three children died, and about 21 people died of heart attacks, because they are unable to reach hospitals. Only because the Israeli army is still blocking the roads, and because Israel is still occupying 82 percent of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

MCEDWARDS: Well, and...

BARGHOUTI: Economically, people are deprived. Eighty-two percent of the population live now below the poverty line of $2 per capita.

MCEDWARDS: OK. Mustafa...

BARGHOUTI: And -- 50 percent.

MCEDWARDS: ... I want to give Michael a chance here. Michael, how afraid are Israelis? I mean, do they dare go out to lunch at a pizza parlor?

BAR ZOHAR: Oh, yes. Israelis go out quite a lot. They wouldn't go out with their small children. They are afraid to go with their children to malls or to public places. But the beaches are full. The restaurants are full. This doesn't change the fact that we are extremely worried and extremely angry.

I was expecting, Mustafa Barghouti, at least to condemn what happened yesterday. That is savage to kill 15 people, out of them six children. And that's what is happening. Instead of complaining and wailing in front of the cameras, come back to the negotiation table. We began negotiating a year ago. We offered the Palestinians an independent state. We own 96 percent of the territory of the West Bank with access to Jerusalem and the holy places, with everything we could do.

You stopped the negotiated and started bombing us and killing us and planting bombs and sending suicide bombers in our cities. And now you complain that we are retaliating. Why do you complain? Stop sending bombers. We shall stop the retaliations right away, because we don't want to use all of our power against the Palestinian people. We want to live in...

MCEDWARDS: All right. Mustafa Barghouti, let's get...

BAR ZOHAR: ... peace with the Palestinian people.

MCEDWARDS: ... your response. Go ahead and respond, Mustafa.

BARGHOUTI: I think the main problem here is that it is Sharon. It is Mr. Sharon, who is a war criminal, who was unfortunately elected by the Israeli people, who doesn't want to negotiate. He said, I am not ready to negotiate about settlements, about Jerusalem, about (INAUDIBLE), about anything. He wants us to live under occupation for the rest of our lives.

There comes a time in people's lives when they want justice and freedom and independence, and this is exactly what Palestinians want. Yesterday, I cannot describe to you. My daughter is 11 years old. The fear she had when we had F-16 jet fighters shooting missiles only 200 meters from our house. The feat that that child has is indescribable. And my feeling of impotence, of not being able to help her is also indescribable.

I am saying it's better for Israel and Palestinians to remove the cause of this problem. The cause the cancer of this problem is occupation -- military occupation. It is better for the Israelis to stop suppressing other people. It's better for them that we co-exist and live with each other side by side, Palestinians steered near, Israelis steer. And if Israel wants to continue occupation, it will bring only disasters to all of us.

MCEDWARDS: Michael Bar Zohar, what do you see happening in families?

BAR ZOHAR: Families are living as they lived before. We are a very resilient nation. We had this experience before in the past in 1921, 1929, 1936, 1947 with a lot of attacks by Palestinians. And all we are trying to say is let's find a way of living in peace together.

I sympathize with Mr. Barghouti about his 11-year-old daughter who is so much afraid. But at least she is alive, and there are some other children, not 11 year -- but 8 year old, or 4 or 2 years old who are dead after the suicide bomber yesterday. Is that a way to fight for freedom?

And after yesterday's bombing in Jerusalem, people were dancing in the streets of the Palestinian cities. That's such a big feat of (UNINTELLIGIBLE). That's a cowardly act.

MCEDWARDS: I guess let me...

BAR ZOHAR: And instead of killing people...

MCEDWARDS: ... let me ask you...

BAR ZOHAR: ... civilians...

MCEDWARDS: ... let me ask Mustafa. Let me Mr. Mustafa. I mean, that image of the people dancing in the street...

BAR ZOHAR: Please.

MCEDWARDS: ... celebrating this. Is that typical of the Palestinian response? Or are you talking about..

BARGHOUTI: No, it's not.

MCEDWARDS: ... people with a very particular political agenda?

BARGHOUTI: No, no. It's not. And I think I feel sorry for every Israeli who was killed; 151 Israelis. But facts are stronger than talks. There are 151 Israelis who were killed, and there are 610 Palestinians who were killed; 32 percent of them are children and 57 percent of them were killed outside clashes areas. I think the cause of this problem is the military occupation. The problem is military occupation. The only way to end this conflict is to end military occupation, and that's the only way and the best way for both people. Who needs to sustain military occupation at the beginning of 21st century? Why should Israel transform the area into a new apartheid system? Is it good for Israelis to suppress other people? I don't think this is right. I think...

MCEDWARDS: Gentlemen...

BARGHOUTI: ... Israel cannot be the mighty Goliath and the weak David at the same time.

MCEDWARDS: ...gentlemen...

BARGHOUTI: This time it is the mighty Israeli Goliath against the Palestinian David.

MCEDWARDS: ... we have to wrap this up right here. But I thank you both for your time this morning. Mustafa Barghouti, and Michael Bar Zohar, thanks.

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