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CNN Live At Daybreak
The Great Debate Over School Dress Codes
Aired August 28, 2001 - 09:20 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: It is that time of year again, when millions of children are starting a new school year. And in many districts across the country, the clothes that they are wearing are a source of conversation and controversy. Now, whether it be dress codes or uniforms, educators often try to control what students wear when the school bell rings.
But as CNN Kathy Slobogin reports, it can be a sore subject for parents, students and teachers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DONNA BENNETT, MOTHER: No. That's mighty skimpy.
LINDSEY BENNETT, STUDENT: That's not skimpy.
D. BENNETT: That is skimpy. Look at the arm holes on that.
KATHY SLOBOGIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's an age-old battle: What the mother likes, the daughter wouldn't be caught dead in.
D. BENNETT: These are cute. No?
SLOBOGIN: But now shopping for school clothes is more fraught than ever. Parents are squeezed between a fashion industry that has even elementary school students looking like Britney Spears and school dress codes that are increasingly strict.
D. BENNETT: What is this, though?
L. BENNETT: Whoa.
D. BENNETT: It has a big split.
L. BENNETT: Major exposure.
D. BENNETT: It's not dress code.
SLOBOGIN: Donna Bennett and her 14-year-old daughter Lindsey (ph) live in a suburb north of Atlanta, where the high school dress code has a long list of forbidden apparel.
D. BENNETT: Too low. SLOBOGIN: Principal Doe Kirkland is on fashion patrol.
DOE KIRKLAND, SEQUOYAH HIGH SCHOOL PRINCIPAL: I can see your tummy. You are going to have to keep that shirt pulled down...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE STUDENT: I'm sorry.
KIRKLAND: ... and tucked into those jeans.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE STUDENT: I didn't even notice it was short.
KIRKLAND: Not that it doesn't look good.
SLOBOGIN: The dress code prohibits bare midriffs, bare backs and bare shoulders. Tank tops and spaghetti straps are out -- so are wide-legged pants, skin-tight pants and pants with holes.
KIRKLAND: You with the pants, come here. You are going to have to keep those things buttoned so they don't drag. Now, you know that. You know that.
Cool.
SLOBOGIN: Shorts must be less than 5 inches above the knee. But pants can't touch the floor. Pajamas are definitely out.
KIRKLAND: Without the dress code, kids will push the bar, and the clothing becomes a distraction.
SLOBOGIN: Kirkland says at one time, she didn't feel dress codes were necessary. But recently, she's changed her mind.
KIRKLAND: It was primarily the girls. The girls began to kind of push the limit. We allowed shorts. We didn't prescribe the length. And they got shorter and shorter and shorter. It was boys that complained about the girls' attire. They said, you know: Ms. Kirkland, it's sort of hard to concentrate in class when you're sitting behind someone who doesn't have on much clothing.
SLOBOGIN: Last year, the school's county floated a proposal for school uniforms; 58 percent of parents were in favor. But those opposed wrote blistering comments, like, "I will not be told what my child will wear to a school I pay for with my tax dollars," and "I remind you that an Austrian man by the name of Adolf Hitler had similar ideas about homogeneous appearances."
Donna Bennett liked the idea of uniforms, if only as a backup for parents.
D. BENNETT: I voted in favor of uniforms. I think it was more of a selfish thing so that I would have reasons to enforce what I already believe in.
SLOBOGIN: Kirkland also supported uniforms until she talked to her students. KIRKLAND: They feel real regimented in a school anyway. We have got a bell system. You have to raise your hand to make a comment. You have to get permission to go to the restroom. So -- and I like that. I like an orderly environment. But I do feel like adolescents needs something to demonstrate their individuality. And they feel like they need their clothes to do that.
SLOBOGIN (on camera): In the last few years, there has been a uniform movement in American schools, with many parents and educators seeing them as a way to restore order, improve discipline and even boost student achievement. But other parents have sued school district over uniforms, claiming they're an erosion of students' freedom of expression.
(voice-over): The uniform movement took off when a California school reported a dramatic decrease in school crime after students began wearing uniforms. To a nation shell-shocked by horrific schools shootings and gang violence, uniforms suddenly looked attractive.
A recent survey found that more than a fourth of U.S. elementary and middle schools now have uniform policies or are considering them; 52 percent of the principals surveyed said uniforms had a positive effect on student achievement. But the uniform success stories are anecdotal. Sociologist David Brunsma actually looked at data from thousands of sophomores across the country to see if the anecdotes held up in the scientific study.
DAVID BRUNSMA, UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA: And we found absolutely nothing, which was actually surprising at the time given all the anecdotal meanderings about the positive effects of uniforms. Yet no one had tested it. And when we went about testing it using rigorous statistical analyses, we found absolutely nothing.
SLOBOGIN: Brunsma found no correlation between uniforms and achievement, attendance, substance abuse or discipline. Brunsma says uniforms are a surface response to deeper problems.
BRUNSMA: It's just a coat of paint. We need to really try to understand why the building is deteriorating and not just paint it up and make it look as if everything is OK.
SLOBOGIN: Whether it's a viable reform or simply a diversion, for principals like Kirkland, controlling what students wear is worth the daily struggle.
KIRKLAND: Keep that thing tucked in.
SLOBOGIN: Kathy Slobogin, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARRIS: All right. With more on this debate, we're joined now by two guests -- from Providence, Rhode Island: John Brucato. He's the principal of Milford High School in Massachusetts, a school that does enforce a dress code. And with us this morning from New work is Nadine Strossen. She is president of the ACLU. And, as you may guess, she is an opponent of dress codes.
Thanks to both of you for coming in this morning. Mr. Brucato, I've got to start with you. And I want to have you answer that last bit of information that we heard in the report here filed by Kathy Slobogin, when she has talked with a man who actually did some empirical studies here that showed that we're talking here about maybe just a coat of paint.
What do you say to that?
JOHN BRUCATO, PRINCIPAL, MILFORD HIGH SCHOOL: I think that as far as dress is concerned, it's very important. With our code, it has a conscience. It's both related to furthering the educational process and keeping our students safe.
HARRIS: But is there any proof that that actually works, aside from just anecdotal stories?
BRUCATO: Well, there is definitely a relationship between the way students present themselves and the way they behave. I've seen that in my school. My administrators and teachers agree.
HARRIS: All right, Nadine, how do you answer that?
NADINE STROSSEN, PRESIDENT, ACLU: Leon, there is absolutely no empirical evidence that shows even a correlation, let alone a causal relationship, between dress codes and uniforms and any improvement in students' educational or safety experiences.
Moreover, as the principal herself that you showed earlier commented, there is an adverse educational impact. We are supposed to be educating our young citizens to participate in a free and democratic society. We should not treat them as if they belong in a military institution or a totalitarian society.
HARRIS: Then where do all these stories about the improvements come from? Why is it, then, that parents seem to be so convinced that there is a connection between the two?
STROSSEN: Leon, let's not forget the many parents who vigorously oppose this. Indeed, there is a whole group of parents that has created a very eloquent Web site protesting against imposition of school uniforms as violating not only their students' rights, but also their rights and their responsibilities as parents.
And, in fact, the ACLU has one lawsuit representing parents and student who have religious objections to many dress codes. And, unfortunately, as we see with any zero-tolerance type measure in the schools, it is disproportionately the minority students who are suspended and even expelled for infractions.
HARRIS: All right, Mr. Brucato, let me get back to you.
In your experience, are you seeing -- are you seeing -- or hearing, I guess -- a request by -- an overwhelming request by the parents or by the community to go ahead and do this? And is that why you are reacting this way?
BRUCATO: I feel that the community is very supportive of what we are trying to do for young people. It's directly related to the mission of our school. We're asking that the individual attire not be disruptive to the educational process.
It can't be offensive or provocative to others. And much of what is worn can, in fact, be vulgar. It can display tobacco advertising, profanity, racial slurs, etcetera. Our mission is to see that all students are considered here.
HARRIS: Well, quickly, can you tell us whether you believe that has been happening everywhere or just in your community? Is it only where you live?
BRUCATO: I think it should happen everywhere.
STROSSEN: But, Leon, these standards, so-called, are so subjective. What one person considers offensive or vulgar, somebody else considers to be an important political expression.
And that's exactly what the Supreme Court held in the 1969 landmark ACLU case in which it upheld the right of a student to where a black armband protesting the Vietnam War, even though that was profoundly offensive and provocative.
HARRIS: We've seen that 1,000 times: One's man potato sack is another man's Brooks Brother suit.
STROSSEN: Right.
HARRIS: Listen, we are going to have to leave it there. But John Brucato and Nadine Strossen, thank you for sharing your insights with us this morning.
STROSSEN: Thank you.
HARRIS: We appreciate it.
We'll talk with you some other time about it, no doubt.
STROSSEN: Look forward to it.
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