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CNN Live At Daybreak

America's New War: Airline Pilots Union Asks for Guns in Cockpit

Aired September 26, 2001 - 08:19   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: The September 11 attacks exposed some serious security gaps at the nation's airports. The FAA is trying to close those gaps, and it is listening to suggestions from all sides, including from the nation's largest pilots union. The union suggests allowing pilots to carry guns in the cockpit.

Joining us now from the Air Line Pilots Association is Captain Duane Woerth -- welcome.

CAPT. DUANE WOERTH, AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION: Good morning.

ZAHN: And airline pilot, Paul Emens, who is against guns in the cockpit -- good to see you as well, sir.

PAUL EMENS, COMMERCIAL PILOT: Good morning.

ZAHN: So, Mr. Emens, if a law is passed that allows pilots to carry guns in the cockpit, would you refuse to carry one?

EMENS: No, not at all. I support the concept of defensive weaponry in the cockpit. That's something that needs to be looked at, and that would include guns. But right now, everybody is keying on the controversy, and everybody is saying guns are the answer. And there are all sorts of ramifications with guns that need to be fully examined and vetted before we commit to that. And I don't even think the pilots understand all those ramifications.

ZAHN: Well, Mr. Emens, why don't you educate us this morning? What is your biggest concern? You, after all, have been flying commercially for many decades, and you have had to control 737s in all kinds of different situations.

What's your biggest fear about guns in the cockpits?

EMENS: I think my biggest fear of guns in the cockpit would be security of it, and also the usage of it. Pilots are not law enforcement officers. We don't live and breathe weapons -- guns. And how that would be handled, how they would be able to handle them, how they would maintain security on them on a four-day trip in hotel rooms and when they're out eating, et cetera, that's a concern. And those need to be addressed, and they can be addressed, but we're not there yet. ZAHN: OK, Mr. Woerth, do you want to address some of those concerns? Have you gotten far enough along in this process to give comfort to Mr. Emens and let him know that when he's on a four-day trip that his weapon will be in a controlled area and safe?

WOERTH: Well, I think I can, especially when you understand the Air Line Pilots position proposal. First of all, it is voluntary. We would never ask any pilot to do this who didn't want to.

Second of all, all of these people would be prescreened, they'd be going to the FBI schools to be trained as federal marshals so that they would be capable and trained in how to secure the weapon and use a weapon as a federal marshal.

So we have those concerns, but we think our proposal addresses those concerns.

ZAHN: But I think Mr. Emens raises a good point. You know, you're on a four-day trip, you stay in hotel rooms, you're going to restaurants. Would you suspect that these pilots would be armed all the time?

WOERTH: I think that our proposal around the airport and in the aircraft is where we'd want them to have these weapons. But on the trip, they obviously would have to secure them but their training as a federal marshal would apply to that.

But let's make sure we haven't forgotten one thing. I know the American public hasn't forgotten. We saw something very extraordinary on September 11, and extraordinary measures that were out of the box two weeks ago can no longer be out of the box. Right now, the secured doors that we're working with to get like an Israeli door, that's a long way away. The airport security we're proposing, that's going to take some time.

This is something we can do to supplement the federal marshals. We want the federal marshals in the back of the airplane who have nothing to do but be a security. But in the meantime, while all those things are works in progress, we think this proposal is supplementary and can be managed successfully to improve security.

ZAHN: All right. But you still didn't answer my question about securing weapons, because obviously there's going to have to be some plan put in place, is there not, to address some of the concerns of Mr. Emens?

WOERTH: Well, we agree totally, and we think the protocols and the syllabuses, and we're going work with the FBI and other law enforcement agencies to develop that. It needs to be considered, but we need to start thinking actively now. That's why we proposed to the Congress, while they're considering these security bills, so an important component is on the table, and it deserves a full and fair debate.

And, look, my association fought guns as long as we can remember. So getting a reversal in these extraordinary times took an extraordinary event like we just witnessed.

ZAHN: Captain Emens, does any of this make you feel any better? Or does it just raise more questions in your mind?

EMENS: No, not at all. As I said, I support the concept of defensive weaponry in the cockpit, and I said guns would be a part of that, but we're not there yet. What I'm afraid right now is that everybody is going to key on the guns, and they seem to be in the media, and they may forget other things that we could use in the cockpits while we train the guys for weapons, if we train the guys for weapons -- other things like tasers or sprays and other things that we can use, and that will get pushed aside in this emotional response that we need guns in the cockpit.

I don't want...

ZAHN: Mr. Woerth...

EMENS: ... I don't want real security be left in the dust while we try to grapple with this...

ZAHN: Oh, I -- you know...

EMENS: ... far more emotional problem.

ZAHN: I think everybody would agree with you on that point.

WOERTH: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

ZAHN: Mr. Woerth, are you considering allowing in this interim process the use of sprays and taser guns to give pilots...

WOERTH: Oh, absolutely.

ZAHN: ... more confidence that they are safe up there?

WOERTH: And also we're looking for personal protective devices for our flight attendants. We're very concerned about that part of our crew. In our testimony to Congress, I proposed that these tasers --they have like 50,000 volts, and I've seen the demonstration. They're very effective. We'd like them installed in every aircraft.

So we're not leaving anything behind, and obviously with a gun issue, it kind of takes the center stage.

But this is, again, a supplementary program to everything now that's been put into place right now -- not a substitute -- supplementary.

ZAHN: Mr. Emens, one last question for you. I know, obviously, you take the safety of your passengers very seriously.

If this law passes and pilots are allowed to carry weaponry in the cockpit, do you guys think that you should be accommodated financially? Should you be making more money to accommodate you for all of these additional duties? EMENS: Now, there's a question. I'd have to say probably yes. It's a considerable responsibility for the pilots, and it would take some significant time out of their lives to be trained and remain proficient. There would have to be something like that.

I'd like to add one thing here. You know, aircraft security begins at the airport, and the idea is to keep these people off the airplanes and out of the cockpits. So if we get too carried away with making cockpits into foxholes that pilots have to defend, we might start to lose track or lose concentration on some of the broader issues.

ZAHN: All right. Well, we appreciate your candor, Captain Emens -- and all of your information, Mr. Woerth.

Mr. Woerth, do you see any raises in the future for these pilots if this law comes to pass?

WOERTH: I didn't understand the question. Could you say it again?

ZAHN: Do you see a raise -- do you see a raise potentially coming for these pilots, who will be assuming all these additional duties?

WOERTH: We haven't even addressed compensation, nor have we thought about it. We have been totally focused on improving aircraft security, so the traveling public and our crews can feel safer and have a genuine program and not a lot of blue-ribbon commission reports for something that's going to happen a year from now. We want real action right now.

ZAHN: And we will follow this debate closely here at CNN. Thank you, gentlemen -- both for joining us this morning.

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