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CNN Live At Daybreak

Is It Right Time for Overseas Trip for Bush?; Handwriting Expert Compares Two Letters Containing Anthrax

Aired October 17, 2001 - 08:33   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: President Bush heads to Shanghai for Pacific rim nations, but is it the right time for an overseas trip? As President Bush gets ready for the Asian Pacific summit, he hopes to cement strong support among regional leaders for the war against terrorism. This will be the president's first overseas trip since the September 11th attacks.

As CNN's John King reports, the trip has raised concerns over the president's safety in a time of war, and questions about his ability to lead the war effort while away from Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): One goal is to make a political point; another to make important diplomatic gains.

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: The president feels very strongly, as he has said to the American people, that we have to go about the business of doing what makes America strong, and he believes that one of his most important tasks as president is to work on strengthening our alliances.

KING: At first glance, the idea of the commander in chief leaving the country in the middle of an overseas military campaign might seem odd.

In 1998, for example, President Clinton abruptly canceled his trip to the same summit, the Annual Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation Forum. Back then, there was a showdown with Iraqi President Saddam Hussein over United Nations weapons inspections.

The military campaign in Afghanistan is in its second week, and there was talk at the highest levels of the administration about canceling the president's Asia trip.

Mr. Bush had planned stops in Tokyo, Seoul and Beijing. Those were postponed, but the president insisted on attending the economic summit in Shanghai.

DANA DILLON, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: APEC not happening would be the damage. If the terrorists were to force the point where APEC didn't happen, that would be a failure. KING: Mr. Bush will meet separately with more than a half dozen leaders, including the presidents of Russia and China. And the president expects the 21-member group to send him home with a new diplomatic weapon for the evolving war.

JAMES STEINBERG, FMR. DEP. NATL. SECURITY ADVISER: A strong statement condemning terrorism will help reinforce the sense that the United States is not alone, that there is a broad-based international support for this effort, and I think that will help very considerably.

KING: The dispute with Beijing over the EP-3 surveillance plane is all but forgotten. And both governments are working hand in hand to make sure the president is safe while he's in Shanghai. Administration officials say Chinese cooperation has been extraordinary, even to the point of allowing U.S. military escorts of Air Force One into Chinese airspace.

(on camera): The White House says the president travels with state of the art communications equipment, and will have no trouble directing military operations overseas. And while the president is away, look for the vice president to be more visible, including his first trip to New York, to survey the damage at the World Trade Center site.

John King, CNN, the White House.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: So should the president go? Former Republican National Committee director Cliff May and Democratic political strategist Bob Beckel are here this morning. That's Cliff. Here's Bob. They are here to sound off. Welcome, gentlemen.

Good to have you with us this morning.

BOB BECKEL, DEMOCRATIC POLITICAL STRATEGIST: Thank you, Paula.

CLIFF MAY, FMR. RNC DIRECTOR: Thanks, Paula.

ZAHN: So, Bob, should the president be traveling to China at a time when America is at war?

BECKEL: I don't think he should be traveling to China at all, let alone at a time of war. I mean, this is the same country that not too many months ago held hostage our planes and our military people, the same people who are the greatest human rights abusers in the world. And on top of all that, not only is Bush going to Shanghai for a meeting that, frankly, is not all that important in the scheme of things today, but they have now decided that they are going to lift the arms embargo on China and sell them spare parts for Blackhawk helicopters. I don't know about these guys, but when I was in my neighborhood, I did not give the bully a bat to beat me up with.

So I just don't understand. I wouldn't go to China. I wouldn't go to China if it were a time of peace if I were president. ZAHN: Cliff, why do think it's the right thing to do for the president? You look like you are humored by what Bob Beckel just had to say.

MAY: Well, I am, because I remember when President Clinton went to China and toasted the butchers of Tiananmen Square, and called China our strategic partner. China is not our strategic partner, but it's a very important country in the world, and it makes sense for President Bush to go there, explain to China what the mission is that we're undertaken now on this war on terrorism, and what will be expected of them.

I also think it is very important he act as a normal president would, because this war effort that we're in against terrorism, it won't be over in a week, it won't be over in a month; it's going to be like the Cold War. It's going to go on for very many years if it's going to be done correctly. And in that time, the president needs to act like a normal president, and he needs relations with China, which is one of the biggest and most important countries in the world, although I agree with Bob Beckel, it is a country that has been terrible in the area of human rights, and a country we should be wary of, but we should be reaching out to at the same time.

BECKEL: Can I just make one point? It was the Bush presidency Bush won that two weeks after they slaughtered 3,000 people in Tiananmen Square, kids, had Bret Scowcroft go over and toast the Chinese secretly. And as far as Clinton concerned, I dumped on Clinton when he did that. I'm an equal opportunity dumper when it comes to China. China is the United States' worst enemy, much more than the Taliban or anybody else.

ZAHN: Bob, hang on a second. Cliff made a good point. What is wrong with the president though trying to explain to China what the United States expects of China? Would you prefer him do that on the telephone?

BECKEL: We have been trying to tell China what we expect of them for 20 years, and nothing ever happen. We expect them to open up their markets. They don't. They sell everything and dump it here in the United States. We expect China to send our pilots and our plane back within 24 hours. They don't. When are we going to finally learn that telling these people, their hearing aides get turned down. I understand they're old, but the fact of the matter is, they don't listen to the United States. When are we going to get the point? They think long term, thousands of years. We think in terms of weeks. These people are not our friends, will not be our friends, and I think within the next two decades much more of an enemy to us than Afghanistan.

ZAHN: All right, Cliff, what is the strong evidence you can point to that Chinese is indeed a friend of the United States?

MAY: I don't think China is a friend of the United States. It's an important country in the world, and there are a number of things that need to be communicated to the Chinese. For example, we are engaged in a war on terrorism. That should not be seen as China as a good time for them to make threats or do aggressive actions against Taiwan. The president has to make very clear that that won't be tolerated, that we're a strong country, and we will not allow china to do that.

Of course I do disagree with Bob about China versus the Taliban. The Taliban has been harboring and working hand in glove with Osama bin Laden. He has killed 6,000 American citizens on American soil. We have not had that in this century. We have barely had that in our history. Terrorism in the gravest threat to the United States right know. We need to wipe it out. China needs to show that they will support us and not mess around and do mischevious things during this period.

ZAHN: Bob, what I want to do is move you along to this issue about Secretary of Health and Human Services Tommy Thompson going before Congress today, asking for some $600 million to buy more antibiotics in the wake of this anthrax scare. Do you think that drug patents should be able to broken during a time of an emergency? Because when I spoke to him earlier today, on the air, he said the problem is, it may be against the law for the government actually to break a patent and allow for other companies to produce a generic brand of Cipro.

BECKEL: Yes, of course you ought to be able to break it. I mean, if this a time of war, it's a time of war. And some company's got the other patent now. I understand there are other antibiotics that could deal with this, but when you get to weapons grade anthrax, the highest quality, the kind that showed up in Daschle's office, Cipro is the only stuff that will work. And if the company that makes Cipro decides -- and we need a lot of it out there as a protective measure -- and they are not one to give up their patent for some period of months during the war, well frankly, the hell with them, shut them down, I mean, give it out.

The only reason they want to keep that patent is to make a lot of money, particularly now. I can't imagine there was a big run on Cipro before September 11th. So I say, yes, break it.

ZAHN: In all fairness, the company says they will hold pre- September 11th prices, but, Cliff May, it is $4.67 a pill. Do you have a problem with that, Cliff?

MAY: I have a problem with what Bob is saying. Look, right now...

ZAHN: What about a $4.67 -- do you think it is fair, that Americans have to pay that much for a pill?

MAY: First of all, every American does not need Cipro at this point, and people should not be taking Cipro unless they actually believe, and their doctors believe, that they have anthrax. If everything goes out and takes antibiotics, what you're going to end up with are all sorts of drug-resistant strains. That's the last thing you want. There is no emergency. There is no rush.

ZAHN: Coming back to the issue of Bayer, and whether that patent should be able to be broken during a time of an emergency.

MAY: That is not that sort of emergency. There is no need for it at this point. The idea here is to set a precedent, and that would kill off the drug companies. What you should be doing is working with the drug companies right now, to talk about the diseases that might be weaponized, and what can be done about it, and don't just use this as an excuse to take over the drug companies. It's not necessary. There are other drugs. I think Bob is wrong also. Cipro is one of a number of antibiotics that works. We don't have a run on Cipro, or we shouldn't. Everybody shouldn't be taking it for a handful of cases. This is not a good time to...

ZAHN: Bob, last word, and you've go to do it in about six seconds.

BECKEL: OK, we are taking over the drug industry, we are talking about $4.69, which ought to get down to zero if there is a threat here in this country. If Bayer is patriotic, let them give it away.

MAY: Bayer is a German company, but they're doing fine.

BECKEL: That's all right. What's the difference?

ZAHN: Bob -- Cliff, I don't know how much Bob respects you, but he actually pulled a tie out of his closet this morning. The guy usually goes without the suit on.

BECKEL: I am touched.

MAY: I hate to say this, Paula, I am going to a funeral after this.

ZAHN: You didn't have to tell me that. Too much information, Bob.

BECKEL: Too much information, yes, I know.

ZAHN: All right, Bob Beckel, Clifford May, thank you for joining us.

The FBI and CDC are now focusing in on the anthrax investigation, Where did that anthrax come from? Who made it? And who has been sending it? CNN has learned that there are possible connections between the letter sent to Capitol Hill and the letter sent to NBC.

Our Susan Candiotti is in Washington with the latest on the investigation -- Susan.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Paula.

Are there two different situations at play between the cases in Florida and those in Washington and New York? A government officials tell CNN that may be the situation. Investigators are citing similarities between the two letters sent to Senator Tom Daschle and NBC's Tom Brokaw. They are not verbatim matches, however both are threatening, including references to Allah. The handwriting is similar, and both were sent from Trenton, New Jersey.

The anthrax found in Senator Daschle's letter is described by government sources as highly sophisticated, potent and very virulent. Good stuff, said a government official, who added it might have come from overseas. There are very few countries who have been able to develop this level of anthrax. Senator Daschle himself describes the strain as having a very high concentration of spores. Senators were briefed privately by law enforcement Tuesday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Clearly, it suggests a level of expertise that is disturbing, and that also suggests the a presence of some state involvement, by a nation involved in using weapons of mass destruction. If that's the case, then that open up a whole another line of inquiry that could also be very disturbing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CANDIOTTI: Officially, the FBI is not ready to put a particularly label on any of the anthrax cases.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: While organized terrorism has not been ruled out, so far, we have found no direct link to organized terrorism.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CANDIOTTI: In Florida, FBI scientists continue to say that the anthrax strains appear to be natural, not weaponized. They were analyzed at the Center for Disease Control labs. The Daschle strain, which is being called very sophisticated, is being testing at the chemical biological warfare lab in Fort Dietrich, Maryland. Sources close to the investigation say the possibility of individuals, not a state-sponsored group being involved, can not be ruled out, and some experts agree.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAVED ALI, CHEMICAL BIOTERRORISM EXPERT: I think it's still too early to tell definitively whether that is from a state-sponsored source, or from another terrorist organization that managed to acquire the material themselves, or develop it themselves, or even steal it themselves. So I think it is still too early...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CANDIOTTI: Compounding the efforts to get at the source of the anthrax are all of the reported incidents of anthrax, 2,300 so far. The FBI it is treating each one seriously, though most are turning up to be false alarms and hoaxes. A Connecticut man faces federal charges, allegedly lying about a phony call at a Connecticut state office building. Authorities say the man stood by and watched as his colleagues were decontaminated, Paula, even though he knew the case was a hoax. ZAHN: I will see you later on this morning.

As we mentioned, the letter sent to Tom Daschle's office was similar to the anthrax-contaminated letter to sent to NBC News in New York. Susan just went through some of that. Are there clues in the handwriting to help determine who is behind them?

Bart Baggett comes to us from Dallas. He is the president of handwritinguniversity.com. Didn't know there was such a place, but now I do.

Thank you so much for joining us this morning.

BART BAGGETT, HANDWRITINGUNIVERSITY.COM: Thank you. Glad to be here.

ZAHN: Thanks, Bart.

So what we want to do is put up a graphic showing the two letter, the one that went to New York, and one that went to Washington, and give us your first impressions about the handwriting and what it tells us about the people behind these letters.

BAGGETT: Well, Paula, the first thing we notice is that I do think it's the same person writing it. And again, without the originals, again, it can't be definitive. But there are very much similarities in the twos, the way it was written, as are as methodical, and if you had a microscope, which the FBI obviously has, experts on the case, you can tell small glitches, and I think that's probably where they're getting the similarity.

The second thing that is really unusual about the envelope and how they are written is they are really slanted downhill. If you look at the envelopes, they're slanted kind of down to the right, and that's an unusual trait, and it's sign in handwriting analysis and psychology of depression, cynicism, pessimism and even suicidalness actually, in a lot of suicide notes I have seen.

ZAHN: Actually, if they ultimately tie this to anybody involved with terrorism, I guess your analysis would hold true then.

BAGGETT: Well, the psychology of it is someone who is mentally unstable, and perhaps needs some medication, so it's interesting instead of being angry, that they may be clinically depressed. I thought that was an interesting finding on my part.

ZAHN: Bart, as we analyze this, how seriously do investigators take any analysis of handwriting? I mean, do they take this as junk science, or do they take this stuff seriously?

BAGGETT: I think it is very serious, especially when you are doing criminal investigations. You are trying to get the psychological profile. There is a lot of books written on the FBI profiling, and when you are trying to find to the psychology behind somebody, any clue is very helpful, just the reason a lot of companies hire me to analyze writing to screen employees or relationships. It is a very valid science, and there are a lot of people who are not very good out there, but when you get up to the high levels, it is a very accurate science.

ZAHN: Bart, earlier on, you mentioned the similarities in the twos and the zip codes, and we are going to highlight that now so all of the folks out there watching can see what are you talking about. We highlighted it with a yellow highlighter here. What is the similarity? My eyesight is bad, but...

BAGGETT: Well, the twos almost look like a backwards S, and that's kind of unusual. Most people write a two with a loop on it, or perhaps even a straight line, and this is kinds of a backwards s, which is kind of unusual in handwriting, and considering on the envelope we only have a limited number of characters, and that's a pretty good symbol that the same person wrote it, as well as the pressure of the writings and some of the other similarities. So that kind of gives us a clue it's probably the same writer.

ZAHN: I do not study this stuff the way you do, but when you look at how defined the block letters look, it almost looks like somebody had to pick up the pen or the highlighter between each letter. Do you see that?

BAGGETT: Yes, that is a good observation, Paula. The Patsy Ramsey note was very similar as far as someone trying to contrive the writing so that someone couldn't see who wrote it, because obviously someone didn't write it straight through very fluid. They have inkspots on almost every letter, which means they took a lot of time, very precise, and that's a lot harder to compare. When we do have a suspect in custody, it would be hard to compare them and say, oh, that's his handwriting, because this is obviously contrived to look like a child's, and they did a good job looking that way, and I think probably, that's why they got opened.

ZAHN:, And, Bart, you obviously are connected to the handwriting analysis community. Are you aware of investigators coming to any of your colleagues to ask them to do what you've done for us this morning?

BAGGETT: Well, I'm not aware of it, but I think the FBI has pretty amazing people on staff that are privy to information that I probably have not have, being that I'm an author and a trainer and we just have students around the world.

ZAHN: I'll tell you one thing, Bart, I'm never going to let you analyze my handwriting.

BAGGETT: Oh, Paula, I'm sure it would be just fine.

ZAHN: I would be scared about what you might find.

Actually, you couldn't read it, Bart. I would challenge you to figure out my handwriting. Nobody could read it.

BAGGETT: I thinks some of my favorite people have sloppy, messy handwriting, and just jump on the Web site, Paula, and you can analyze it all by yourself.

ZAHN: All right, Bart, thanks so much. Appreciate your expertise this morning.

BAGGETT: You're welcome. Have a great day.

ZAHN: You too.

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