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Anthrax: Richard Butler Speaks on Possible Anthrax Origin from Iraq
Aired October 18, 2001 - 07:31 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: There are still, of course, no solid answers about who is behind the current anthrax scare. To help us look for an answer, we're going to turn once again to former United Nations Chief Weapons Inspector Richard Butler.
In today's "New York Times," Mr. Butler writes -- quote -- "Terrorists aim to cause terror, and in this they have succeeded, up to a point. The run on Cipro at pharmacies demonstrates that. If they also aim to use biological weapons to kill on a large scale, they have not succeeded, not yet." Chilling and brutally honest words from Richard Butler, ambassador in residence at the Council on Foreign Relations.
He joins me now to talk a little bit more about who they might be.
The salient word, good morning,...
RICHARD BUTLER, FORMER U.N. CHIEF WEAPONS INSPECTOR: Good morning.
ZAHN: ... yet. Are you expecting something more to happen here?
BUTLER: I'm not predicting it. I think we should be aware of the possibility. You can see how this thing is growing, started with poor Mr. Stevens in Florida, now we have, what is it, 30 people around Senator Daschle's office who have been infected and so on.
Now there are two things -- two paths we need to walk down, one is the personal one that you were talking about earlier this morning, who wrote the letters, where did they come from and so on. And that's a fruitful line of inquiry. But the other one that I write about in today's newspaper is the technical path, and I think we're starting to make some progress there.
ZAHN: What evidence points to the fact that we've made any progress (INAUDIBLE)?
BUTLER: Well that the anthrax that went to Florida and to NBC...
ZAHN: Are the same.
BUTLER: ... are the same. Same micron size, same particle size, apparently. Now the next step will be to see if that's the same with respect to what went to Senator Daschle's office.
ZAHN: And we were told this morning by Susan Candiotti that might take several days to know that, but how significant is it these are the same microns that went to New York and that went to Florida?
BUTLER: The critical aspect of that, Paula, is that if they're a small micron size, as Susan was saying, then it's highly refined anthrax, it's not crude stuff that someone made in a basement -- some crazy person cooked this up at home and stuck it in envelopes and mailed it to people, it's much more sophisticated than that, it means more know-how, expensive equipment.
ZAHN: How expensive?
BUTLER: Millions of dollars in the case of Iraq. What I know, Iraq bought a number of years ago to make sophisticated anthrax cost them...
ZAHN: Did you actually see this stuff during weapons inspections or not?
BUTLER: Up to a point, but Iraq actually made the most strenuous attempts to keep us away from that. I formed the view that the stronger those attempts were, the more important the weapon system was to Saddam. And in that case, quite frankly, I had to conclude that Saddam's weapon of choice was biology because it was in that area that they made the most strenuous attempts to keep us away. So we saw it up to a point, spray devices, drying devices to make this small micron size anthrax.
Now if the investigation show that this is the same anthrax that's been going to each address in the United States, that will lead us to the next step which is how was it made, what degree of know-how and machinery was used to make it.
ZAHN: How do you figure that out?
BUTLER: Well,...
ZAHN: I mean there are no fingerprints on that stuff.
BUTLER: No, -- well not perfectly. And I wouldn't want to give that impression that this is going to be a perfectly concluded investigation. There will always be some areas of doubt. But this is the path to walk down because what that degree of sophistication will do will eliminate other possibilities and come down to a small number of laboratories or countries in the world that we know are able to do it this way.
ZAHN: And in the "New York Times" today you write about the countries that have the know-how to do this,...
BUTLER: Yes.
ZAHN: ... U.S., Great Britain, Russia, Iraq. BUTLER: During the Cold War, a number of us on the western side made these weapons. Russia, on the other side, certainly did. Early 1970s, a treaty was done to stop all this and we did. Russia signed that treaty but had a secret program where it continued and made massive amounts of biological weapons. I say in my article that we need to know if there's a possible source, you know through breakdown in Russia and criminal groups getting hold of that stuff (ph),...
ZAHN: Well because thousands of those scientists left the program, right?
BUTLER: ... but also Iraq. That's right.
ZAHN: And they were basically out there to be hired by rogue nations...
BUTLER: Absolutely.
ZAHN: ... if the price was high enough.
BUTLER: What -- no money. I mean it's as simple as that. It's really sad that people with significant expertise suddenly without an income at all and families to feed prospect is that they might sell that know-how.
Now outside of the Cold War spectrum, east and west, of course is the other part of the world and the leading country there with a significant biological program is our old friends the Iraqis, Saddam Hussein. And that's why I say in what I've written today that we should inquire into that possibility.
ZAHN: Let me read exactly what you wrote...
BUTLER: Right.
ZAHN: ... because it's a very pointed statement you make here. Quote -- "... biological weapons are closest to President Hussein's heart because it was in this area that his resistance to our work reached its height. He seemed to think killing with germs has a lot to recommend it."
BUTLER: Right, I mean it. Look, at one moment in one of my visits to Baghdad I had a private conversation with Saddam's deputy Tariq Aziz. And he told me in that conversation that yes of course they'd made biological weapons. And the point I want to make is one hour earlier in a larger room where he had his generals around him and I had my scientists with me, they were robustly denying that they ever did this. That was for the record. Off the record, in private over a cup of coffee, Aziz said to me, of course we made biological weapons -- of course. And he went on to say that that was in order to use them on the Persians and the Jews.
ZAHN: Of course in my interview...
BUTLER: He said -- he said those...
ZAHN: ... with Tariq Aziz a couple of weeks ago, he said that's absurd, this is all propaganda.
BUTLER: Well that's nonsense, and of course they did.
ZAHN: Final thought this morning because we don't want people to think at this point anybody can directly link this anthrax,...
BUTLER: Right.
ZAHN: ... the source of it, to Iraq.
BUTLER: Right.
ZAHN: Just a final point on that matter.
BUTLER: I -- I'm -- I welcome the question because you know I've said this to you before, we have to be absolutely factual here. And I will say, no, we do not have evidence yet at this stage to link Iraq to this. Do I think it's possible? Yes, but above all should it be inquired into, looked into? When we know exactly what kind of anthrax this is, my answer is yes we should.
ZAHN: Mr. Butler, it's always good to have you with us.
BUTLER: OK.
ZAHN: Former U.N. weapons inspector...
BUTLER: Thank you.
ZAHN: ... now with the Council on Foreign Relations.
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