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CNN Live At Daybreak

Dr. Sanjay Gupta Demonstrates How Anthrax Can Get Out of an Envelope

Aired October 25, 2001 - 07:13   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: We have more now on anthrax from a slightly different angle, specifically, how the spores can be sealed in an envelope and still infect people.

CNN Medical Correspondent Sanjay Gupta is at the CNN Center with more on that.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Paula.

ZAHN: Dr. Gupta, good morning. The postmaster general basically conceding yesterday that they had made a mistake, that it was not clear to them that you could get infected from a sealed envelope. So what is it that we've all learned?

GUPTA: Well, I'll tell you, Paula, I just want to do a simple demonstration to actually try and simulate what might have happened there. Take a standard sealed envelope and find some standard powder, in this case talcum powder is what we used, and actually put it together, sealed it and tapped it, as you can see here. And as I'm tapping on it, you'll see if through the bottom there -- there you see it, Paula, actually powder coming right out of the envelope.

Some of that is coming through the sides. For sure, some of that is actually coming right through the paper of the envelope as well. My hands were actually sort of covered with some of the powder by the time I got done with this little demonstration here.

So I made some calls, tried to figure out what it is that we're talking about here and how big these particles are. Powder, talcum powder in this case, about 30 to 40 microns in size. Now, compare that to the anthrax that we've been hearing so much about, the anthrax that can cause the inhaled version, typically one to five microns in size.

I also wanted to figure out how that paper measures up to all of this. Usually paper is made through a cross weaves and the pores are usually about 100 microns in size.

Now, putting it all in a frame of reference, 100 microns is less than a strand of hair. So we're talking all of these things being very small, but certainly, Paula, from that demonstration and from those numbers, it's pretty clear that certainly anthrax spores could have gotten out of an envelope and possibly been what contaminated a postal facility.

That's a theory. We don't know for sure, but that is a theory.

ZAHN: But it was quite obvious that your powder, you know, was coming out of the bottom of that envelope there. If the microns would have been that size you were talking about, so minuscule, you're not suggesting that the postal workers would have actually seen that when the letter was pressed in a machine or when it was handled? That's the key difference, isn't it?

GUPTA: That's a very important point, Paula, yes. These are one to five microns. You can't see that with the human eye. So while I was a little bit more dramatic with the plume of smoke coming out of the bottom of the envelope I was demonstrating, you probably wouldn't see that with the anthrax spores, if that's the way it happened.

ZAHN: Now, the postmaster general was talking yesterday that, you know, he couldn't assure with a hundred percent, you know, security that our mail was safe. But he said that all Americans should basically be washing their hands after they handle the mail. Does that make a big difference?

GUPTA: It really does. Just the simple thing, washing your hands will probably get the spores right off of your hands before they have a chance to infect you, if you're able to notice it quickly enough. People have also talked about bleach. I've talked to a few experts about that. They say bleach may be a bad idea and may actually cause some breakdown in your skin which may allow spores to actually get in. So use something that's not as harsh on your skin. Get the spores off and certainly call somebody. Those are the messages that I've been hearing pretty uniformly.

ZAHN: All right, fascinating to watch your demonstration this morning, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, incredibly revealing.

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