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CNN Live At Daybreak
Richard Butler Speaks on War Against Terrorism
Aired October 30, 2001 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Long before the bombs starting falling in Afghanistan, U.S. officials warned that the war against terrorism could take years. Well the military campaign is now into its fourth week, the Taliban are still standing and Pakistan has come under increasing pressure for its support of the U.S.-led campaign.
That is the issue today for Richard Butler, among many other issues we need to address here this morning. He is the former chief U.N. weapons inspector in Iraq.
RICHARD BUTLER, FORMER UNITED NATIONS CHIEF WEAPONS INSPECTOR: Good morning, Paula.
ZAHN: Good morning. Your overall perspective on the campaign so far? We had Bud McFarland on earlier this morning...
BUTLER: Right.
ZAHN: ... that said this is just the first phase.
BUTLER: Right.
ZAHN: If you're going to wipe these guys out, you got to move on to phase II and now.
BUTLER: I think he's right, but let's summarize it this way. It was always going to be a long battle, OK, and that's proving to be the case. Secondly, what was done in the first instance to use air power to take out hardware, tanks, military camps, equipment was the right thing to do. Thirdly, the real objective to get al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden is going to take people on the ground. Now we hear that that is starting to happen in a rather secret way and I think that's a good way to do it. And so far, I would say, so good, but it is clear that the environment is getting shaky. Look at Pakistan, problems there.
ZAHN: Well Pakistan saying already got to -- got to speed this up.
BUTLER: Right, it was very interesting when the General Franks was up there talking with the president of Pakistan, the question of whether or not to continue the campaign during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan was obviously raised and the general said neither confirm nor deny. Then Secretary Rumsfeld took up the question and said we will continue the campaign in the -- in that month that is coming up just as the Taliban will continue to do the dreadful things that they do.
But what this means, Paula, is around the edges of this very right thing we're doing there is concern. There's unrest in Pakistan. There's concern about opinion in the Muslim world. You know that vital question that we have to keep alive which is that we are not against Muslims or Arabs, we're against terrorists. All of that I see as coming under a great pressure.
ZAHN: What about the perceptions here at home?
BUTLER: Yes.
ZAHN: You have a New York Times-CBS poll...
BUTLER: Yes.
ZAHN: ... that came out saying that in one of the most striking shifts only 18 percent of Americans polled said they had a great deal of confidence that the government could protect them from terrorism. That is down from 35 percent just a month ago.
BUTLER: Yes, that is really striking. And I guess what that points to is that it would be best if this campaign in Afghanistan could shortly produce a concrete outcome. Now I know that's a big ask. These terrorists are going to be hard to find. They literally go underground.
ZAHN: Well there are people who say it's totally unrealistic you're ever going to get Osama bin Laden.
BUTLER: Maybe. What one of the things that I would counsel against, by the way, is to overpersonalize this and make the capture of Osama bin Laden or not the complete rule, judgment as to whether this was the right thing to do or successful or not. He's one man. There's another report in the press that points out that even if he were to go, other members of the network might keep it going.
ZAHN: Might keep it going. The "Washington Post" goes so far to say...
BUTLER: Right.
ZAHN: ... that they've already -- the cells here in the United States of the al Qaeda...
BUTLER: Right.
ZAHN: ... network have already been given instructions, if the al Qaeda heads...
BUTLER: Right.
ZAHN: ... get killed that they can go on with their (INAUDIBLE). BUTLER: Just go on. And there are 54 al Qaeda cells around the world. The objective is to get terrorism out of our life, right. It's to break al Qaeda as a start. There may be other things that we'll have to do as well so let's not overpersonalize this.
But coming back to our point, it is remarkable that public opinion is as fluctuating as it is. Obviously it would be better if we could get a concrete outcome soon and show some progress.
ZAHN: Do you think it was responsible for the government to issue this threat again yesterday? This is the second threat of an unspecified potential terrorist attack?
BUTLER: Yes, I do. I think...
ZAHN: Is the government trying to, as some would say, cover its derriere?
BUTLER: No, not -- derriere, what a lovely way of putting it. No, I don't -- I don't think that's the inner point. I've seen some of the materials, nowhere near, I'm sure, as much as the government has got, about the possibility of a terrorist attack in the -- in the coming days. We've got to ask ourselves, who are they talking to, that is the -- John Ashcroft, in part to you and me...
ZAHN: Right.
BUTLER: ... saying be prepared. But, Paula, surely they were also talking to al Qaeda. Surely they were also saying we've been listening to you, we know about you and we're on the case, and I think that's a smart thing to do.
ZAHN: It's interesting you should say that because FBI Director Robert Mueller has indicated that he believes the last warning might have averted a terrorist attack. So you think this is this tactic?
BUTLER: I think that's possible. I assume, and I don't want to go into this in detail for reasons of security, but I assume that their information is well collected, they've been listening. And one of the judgments behind Ashcroft's statement -- the attorney general -- would have been to say to al Qaeda, we have our eyes on you and I support doing that. I think that's right.
ZAHN: Need a very brief answer to this, the "Washington Post" reporting that the bentonite, this chemical, was not found in the letter sent to Senator Daschle's office,...
BUTLER: I know.
ZAHN: ... which makes it less likely, what, that Iraq was involved with that particular letter?
BUTLER: It makes -- it makes it a bit less likely that Iraq was the origin, but it's still not absolute because in the last three years it's possible that Iraq could have used silica instead of bentonite and I think silica was found in the sample. So again, no accusation directly of Iraq. It does make it a bit less likely. But, Paula, we still do not know the origin of this substance.
ZAHN: And we are going to count on you in the days to come to help us...
BUTLER: OK.
ZAHN: ... clarify all of this.
Ambassador Butler,
BUTLER: Good to...
ZAHN: ... again, thanks for your insights.
BUTLER: Good to see you.
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