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CNN Live At Daybreak
Pakistani Scientists Released; Interview With Richard Butler
Aired November 02, 2001 - 07:42 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back at 42 after the hour. Two nuclear scientists who had worked for the Pakistan government have been released from custody. They were under investigation for possible ties to the Taliban. This comes at a time of heightened concern about nuclear materials. The men are in Islamabad and so too is our Sheila MacVicar. Good morning Sheila.
SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Paula. Well these two men have undergoing interrogation for a period of time off and on. They have been released before. Their release last night, of course, is no indication that the investigation is finished.
Now, the concern comes about because these two gentlemen, Sultan Basha Radin Mahmoud and Abdul Majeed, both had distinguished careers with the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission. Mr. Mahmoud was the director general of nuclear power plants and Mr. Majeed was in charge of uranium enrichment labs.
Both retired some time ago and in retirement began a charity that was operating inside Afghanistan. Now this charity was doing a lot of things -- the kinds of normal things you might expect a charity to do. It was rebuilding schools, hospitals, providing medical supplies -- all of that kind of thing. But clearly in order to do that, both of these gentlemen had contact with the Taliban and that is where the concern is Paula.
ZAHN: And what is the chief concern among their concerns?
MACVICAR: Well, obviously, there is a fear that perhaps these gentlemen could have somehow been operating with the Taliban, could have transferred technology, knowledge, perhaps even in the most extreme version of these events, nuclear material.
Now it's really important to state that the Pakistani government has been absolutely clear in saying they have no evidence and no belief that anything of the kind has taken place. They have gone to great lengths to emphasize the security both of the nuclear weapons here in Pakistan and nuclear material.
They have also said they don't think there has been a technology transfer. In fact, because there were other people arrested also associated with this charity, the issue here may not really be nuclear, but it may be about money and a concern that this charity was, in fact, perhaps funneling money to the Taliban or to al Qaeda. Paula.
ZAHN: All right, Sheila MacVicar, thanks so much for that update.
The United Nations Nuclear Watchdog agency is holding a special meeting in Vienna today because of fears that it may be easier for terrorists to get nuclear weapons than the U.N. agency had previously thought. One fear, that religious extremists could target Pakistan's nuclear arsenal. But Pakistan's president tried to ease those concerns on CNN's "LARRY KING LIVE".
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
PERVEZ MUSHARRAF, PRESIDENT OF PAKISTAN: First of all, let me say that all our nuclear assets, all our strategic assets are in very, very safe hands. We have an excellent command and control system which evolved, and there is no question of their falling into the hands of any fundamentalists.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
ZAHN: So how easy is it for terrorists to get nuclear weapons? That's our topic this morning with Ambassador Richard Butler, who is with the Council on Foreign Relations and former chief U.N. weapons inspector. Welcome back.
AMBASSADOR RICHARD BUTLER, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Good morning Paula.
ZAHN: Good morning, first of all your reaction to something that came out of that meeting ...
BUTLER: Right.
ZAHN: ... the international atomic energy folks, where they said that warnings that an act of nuclear terrorism is much more likely than previously thought.
BUTLER: I think they're right. One of the fundamental reasons for that is the collapse of the Soviet Union now 10 years ago. The Russians never had a clear picture of exactly how much bomb grade material they made. I'm not making that up. It's incredible.
The Soviet ...
(CROSSTALK)
BUTLER: ... the Soviet economy kind of ran on automatic pilot up to a point. They kept churning out plutonium and they don't know to this day exactly how much they made. Secondly, it wasn't kept very safely. Thirdly, with the collapse of their scientific infrastructure, the collapse of the Soviet economy in many respects, as you know very well criminal groups ...
ZAHN: Sure. BUTLER: ... came into existence, in fact, some people say that criminal groups basically still run the Russian economy. They, it is thought, have gotten hold of some of that plutonium and maybe even some small nuclear weapons -- fully fabricated nuclear weapons and have sought to offer them for sale.
And there is a nuclear black market, so I think that's what the International Atomic Energy Agency is saying first and foremost, that that's a new phenomenon and that's dangerous.
ZAHN: And against that backdrop, there is much concern about the safety of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal --
BUTLER: That's right.
ZAHN: Even Colin Powell said it in his conference not long ago that the United States would aid the Pakistanis any way we could to make sure that their nuclear weapons stay out of the hands of the wrong people.
BUTLER: That's terribly important.
ZAHN: How secure do you think their nuclear arsenal is?
BUTLER: At the moment, relatively secure. I'm not, you know, entirely convinced of that, but so long as the government is stable and has adequate control over its scientific and military establishment -- hear what I'm saying, these are big considerations.
ZAHN: Sure.
BUTLER: If those things are in place, then relatively secure. But Paula, they're exactly the things that are in some measure under threat now because of what is going on in the region in Afghanistan and so on. The government has its opponents. There are Pakistanis who think that the General is doing the wrong thing in helping the United States.
ZAHN: Although the demonstrations so far ...
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: ... not been loud, have been small.
BUTLER: They have, and I think that's an encouraging thing. The scientific establishment, we learned that a couple of retired and I think they were forcibly retired, scientists have crossed the border and talked to the Taliban. These are men who do know the physics of making nuclear weapons. That's, I think, a matter of great concern.
ZAHN: Let me bring you home for just the next 30 seconds -- your reaction to this unspecified threat that Gray Davis made more specific yesterday talking about the potential suspension bridges ...
BUTLER: Right.
ZAHN: How would someone knock a bridge down? I mean what kind of weapons are we talking about here? Are we talking about bombs ...
(CROSSTALK)
BUTLER: A variety of things, obviously, by explosion is a bomb and there were suitcases found near the bridge, The Golden Gate Bridge and obviously a bomb would be the first way. But as we saw here in New York, you can do it remotely. You can fly an aircraft towards an object. Nuclear, maybe, I'm not sure. I actually feel a bit uncomfortable going into that Paula because I don't think we should talk too much in public about, you know, to aid these people.
ZAHN: Well a hypothetical, but the fact is ...
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: The governor feels that his state might be under siege.
BUTLER: Yes. I think one of the highlights is the extreme importance of intelligence. We've known this and Governor Davis knows this -- these plans because we're listening -- we're listening in to the telephone calls of the terrorist groups.
We got to continue to do that. I think we've got to try to deter them by saying we know what you plan -- right and as you know, I think that's a very important part of these public announcements. Going further and trying to work out how they would do it, I feel a bit uncomfortable with that, but the bridge can be patrolled, et cetera. But what we have to worry about is a remote attack. Flying something into the bridge and I think that's the tough one.
ZAHN: Ambassador Butler, good of you to join us as you do every morning at this hour. Our ambassador in residence Miles.
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