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CNN Live At Daybreak

Authorities Looking for Security Flaw at O'Hare; Interview With Mary Schiavo

Aired November 06, 2001 - 08:11   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Despite all the increased security measures, a huge lapse at Chicago's O'Hare Airport. Over the weekend, a man with knives and other weapons got through a United Airlines security checkpoint. Chicago bureau chief Jeff Flock is at O'Hare where officials are trying to find out what went wrong.

Good morning Jeff.

JEFF FLOCK, CNN CHICAGO BUREAU CHIEF: That's a good question Paula. Indeed they are trying to figure that out this morning. That security checkpoint is back behind me somewhere. In fact we've got another camera placed, gives you a more up-close and personal look at that security checkpoint. It is what took place there over the weekend. It has everybody concerned and here's the latest this morning.

The transportation secretary calling on United, perhaps, to be fined for what took place at the security checkpoint. New security procedures now have been implemented at the location that you're now looking at. If anything suspicious comes to the attention of the screeners over there, immediately you get a full search of your person as well as any bags that you are attempting to carry on to the aircraft.

We've got some pictures from this checkpoint just a couple of weeks ago. Let's roll those now because at that time those procedures were not in effect if - for example, you went through there and the magnetometer set off a knife that you were carrying, for example or you declared that you had something like a knife, nothing else necessarily would happen.

Now those new security procedures in effect because of what took place here on Saturday. That is a man - 27-year old man from Nepal, a former college student here in the U.S. came through that security checkpoint carrying seven knives in his bag, as well as a taser gun and got through security, and the scary thing is that he wasn't apparently even trying to do so.

He got all the way to the gate area before another check of his bags and his person turned up those seven knives and the taser gun. Obviously, a big concern about what took place there. He now is in a federal lockup in downtown Chicago facing a federal count of carrying a concealed weapon aboard the aircraft. He faces $250,000 fine and 10 years in prison, but a spokesman for the U.S. attorney's office in Chicago telling me that apparently, no nefarious purpose in bringing that stuff through security - apparently didn't - either wasn't aware of the prohibition on it or had forgotten that those knives were in there.

In any event they don't suspect that he had any sort of terroristic motive, nonetheless he did apparently, according to the government, break the law. Big question that you asked at the outset, how did it happen. We can report this morning that eight security personnel that worked at that security checkpoint back there behind me have been suspended. Some suspicion or suggestion, though, on the part of the contracting company that operates the checkpoint for United, that perhaps there was a problem with the x-raying machine.

Why else, they ask, would seven knives and a taser gun not show up on the x-ray machine. That's a good question - still being asked this morning Paula.

ZAHN: All right Jeff, we will stay with you until you get an answer to that question. We are going to move on now and talk more about the Chicago breach that has so outraged the Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta says, as Jeff just reported, fines may actually be levied against United Airlines.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

NORMAN MINETA, TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY: I consider the O'Hare failure a case of dramatic dimensions, and I am recommending that the FAA begin enforcement actions, which could lead to a substantial fine against United Airlines.

In addition, we are requiring United Airlines to conduct a retraining of all O'Hare screeners, and I have asked the FAA to supervise that training.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

ZAHN: Mary Schiavo has been an advocate for airline safety and an outspoken critic of the FAA. She is the former inspector general for the Department of Transportation who now works as an aviation disaster attorney. She joins us from Columbus, Ohio. Welcome back, good to have you with us this morning.

MARY SCHIAVO, AVIATION DISASTER ATTORNEY: Thank you. Thank you.

ZAHN: So if you were in charge, would you be fining United Airlines or firing Argenbright, the security firm that allowed for this to happen.

SCHIAVO: Well actually both. I think it's important obviously to send a message to the airlines that under the new bills - under the House bill, for example, United Airlines and other airlines will be out of the picture, and there were special exceptions carved out to leave companies like Argenbright to continue to have contracts even under the new plan. So I think it's very important to send not only a message to United, but also to the actual security company and in this particular company they have indeed a troubled record.

ZAHN: Well, let's go through that. Let's talk about what happened in Philadelphia. Wasn't the FAA auditing Argenbright because they were hiring people with criminal pasts to work there and there was another situation at Dulles Airport because they were hiring people that didn't speak English.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: What does it take to - what does it take to make the system work here?

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: Taking out the whole firm?

SCHIAVO: Exactly. You have made the point exactly. The problem is enforcement actions have been few and far between. Usually it does come down on the screeners - when I was inspector general, we had a big push to hold somebody accountable for this. In the end the screeners can have a few failures eventually getting fired, but in the case of a company that has repeated failures and remember some of this investigation was criminal at Philadelphia - not only hiring people without the proper background checks, but I believe the allegation was actually saying that they had done the checks.

That's an offense. So this is a very serious violation and literally they could be decertified. Airlines that use them literally could lose their ability to fly if they don't meet the security and this company clearly isn't.

ZAHN: Well the transportation secretary talked about retraining some of these screeners. Is that going to be enough to save Argenbright?

SCHIAVO: No and actually, like I said, under the new House bill that just passed last week, there's a special exception to allow international security companies - companies that aren't even owned or a total U.S. company, even though the screeners have to be citizens, those companies can still keep their contracts.

I really think that the message that United is going to get the hammer and with maybe further looking at the security companies. I don't think that's the issue here, but it is very important to hold someone accountable because otherwise we have the same thing. We have had these problems in the system for well over a decade.

Many government agencies have reported - my old office, office of inspector general, GAO, the General Accounting Office has found these same problems and no one is ever held accountable.

ZAHN: Well I got to tell you, any potential traveler out there that's listening this morning has got to be scratching their head saying what the heck is going on and you know, they continue to tell me to fly and resume a normal life. But does this give you much confidence in the system?

SCHIAVO: No it doesn't and that's an important point because we continue to rely on the same system and in particular this shows another failure that no one's really talked about yet and that is the fact that in place is this computer assistance passenger screening program, which was supposed to - they have told us - the government has assured us would flag persons exactly like this.

Persons with - we can't forget to mention also had knives in a checked bag, knives on person, knives on a carry-on. This is what this supposed computer program was supposed to screen out and tell us who among us might be packing like this, and the computer system also failed the screening. So our computer system failed, our screeners failed; and finally United on a random check got them. The random check - the lowest tech thing in our system, open the bags of random people, worked.

ZAHN: Is it the random check or is it as we have reported that in fact the CAP system in the very end did work. At the end of the line where this guy was finally at the gate and they searched him because he was, in fact, flagged by the CAP system.

SCHIAVO: If that's the case, that is very good because the CAP system should have flagged him because he was traveling on a one-way ticket, but what's important here is the CAP system does not get to the screeners. The screeners who look at people going through the x- ray checkpoint, they're sort of a disconnect in the system. They stand there, they screen people, but they don't have the intelligence information and the information in the system.

For example, we had to wait until after arrest to learn about this person. The reports differ on whether it was a random search or the CAP system. But again the person is clear to the gate, already had weapons through the system and already unfortunately what we call contaminated the sterile area - already had weapons in the sterile area.

ZAHN: Well we appreciate your insights as the government ...

SCHIAVO: Thank you.

ZAHN: ... still tries to get a fix on exactly what transpired in Chicago over the weekend. Mary Schiavo, as always, good to have you with us, appreciate your time.

SCHIAVO: Thank you.

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