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CNN Live At Daybreak
Interview With Richard Butler
Aired November 07, 2001 - 07:32 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: The investigation into the source of the anthrax attacks appears to be hitting a dead end after yet another dead end. Now officials are saying that they really cannot determine which lab may have produced the anthrax which found its way into those tainted letters.
For his perspective now, we turn once again this morning to Ambassador Richard Butler of the Council of Foreign Relations, the former chief weapons inspector for the United Nations -- good morning.
RICHARD BUTLER, COUNCIL OF FOREIGN RELATIONS: Morning, Paula.
ZAHN: Welcome back.
First of all, your reaction to what Anthony Fauci has said -- of course he's the head of the National Institute...
BUTLER: Right.
ZAHN: ... of Allergy and Infectious Diseases -- that the anthrax threat, at least for the time being, appears to be over. What does that mean?
BUTLER: Great news. He's been terrific, I think, throughout this whole crisis, very clear, very credible. And of course, we should take heart from the fact that nothing more has shown up for a week or so.
The other part of the story, though, continues to be a mystery. To hear FBI testimony in the Congress that they don't even know how many labs in this country work with anthrax, I mean that's very disturbing.
ZAHN: Because yesterday there was this extremely heated hearing between members of the FBI's counterintelligence program and senators, like Senator Feinstein,...
BUTLER: Right.
ZAHN: ... who were outraged that the FBI couldn't give them better answers.
BUTLER: Well,...
ZAHN: How could it be that you don't know how many people...
BUTLER: Well,...
ZAHN: ... in this country have access to anthrax...
BUTLER: I don't...
ZAHN: ... of this particular strain that was in Senator Daschle's letter?
BUTLER: I don't know the precise answer to that, but I can give you a bit of background about, you know, how it may have worked. For some years now, if you were a registered scientist and conducting legitimate research work, you could actually contact a laboratory that had anthrax spores in its possession and ask them to provide you with some of it for your research purposes. Now...
ZAHN: And how would you get it?
BUTLER: Well oddly, you would get it through the mail.
ZAHN: Oh come on.
BUTLER: No, seriously, but it would be safely packaged and it wouldn't be weaponized in the way that the stuff that went to Senator Daschle was.
ZAHN: But it could potentially be dangerous, could it not,...
BUTLER: Not...
ZAHN: ... even if it wasn't the small, small particles, or not?
BUTLER: I think -- I'm not so sure. I think it was probably done fairly safely. I mean you've got to laugh when you think about it. We've got to have a little humor about the...
ZAHN: Well that's absurd.
BUTLER: But I think that laboratory still operates and I think the rules are probably still much the same that if you are a registered scientist, you can seek this stuff and get it.
I must tell you, too, Paula, that in the past that laboratory actually supplied anthrax, this is a dozen years ago before the Gulf War, actually supplied anthrax raw material to Iraq.
ZAHN: Among other...
BUTLER: Yes,...
ZAHN: ... countries that haven't been so friendly to the United States.
BUTLER: ... among other countries. So I think we need more and better information, obviously, but I agree that the first part of what Dr. Fauci said is good news, and let's hope it stays that way that we don't see any more of this stuff showing up for a while.
ZAHN: In the meantime, you have senators fighting to tighten the regulations...
BUTLER: Right.
ZAHN: ... governing how this biological...
BUTLER: Right.
ZAHN: ... material is transported and then how it's managed.
Let's move on to the issue of these very important state visits...
BUTLER: Yes.
ZAHN: ... by the Prime Minister of Britain...
BUTLER: Yes.
ZAHN: ... and the president of Pakistan.
BUTLER: Two absolutely key figures. The president of Pakistan, General Musharraf, who's coming here, having taken what, for him, has been a tough and difficult decision to support the coalition. He's leaving Pakistan and coming to the United States for a few days, a General Assembly of the U.N. and to see President Bush.
ZAHN: What does he want?
BUTLER: He wants support, he wants U.S. economic assistance in return for, you know, what he's doing for us. I think he also wants to stay in power, and that's the bit that worries me. There are forces inside Pakistan who are opposed to his decision on the war against the Taliban.
ZAHN: But so far they haven't mounted demonstrations of a great...
BUTLER: Right.
ZAHN: ... enough proportion...
BUTLER: Right.
ZAHN: ... that you would find him vulnerable in the near term, would you?
BUTLER: I think that's right, and let's keep our fingers crossed. He's taken an incredibly courageous decision. We need him. We need him to stay with us, and let's hope he gets back safely.
The other one is Tony Blair, another key figure. The Prime Minister of Britain on his way on a Concorde now, I think, coming to the Untied States. And interesting story there is that he's invested so much time in this, some people say a bit like Winston Churchill during the Second World War, you know, talking up the situation as strongly as he could, that he's neglected his political situation at home.
ZAHN: In fact, there have been (UNINTELLIGIBLE) headlines in the...
BUTLER: Yes.
ZAHN: ... -- in the home newspapers.
BUTLER: One of the tabloids in London today has a big sign that says Wanted: Prime Minister Blair. If you see him, send him home. Interesting about that, though, is that you know European leaders, I think, on the continent of Europe are a bit jealous of this special relationship that Tony Blair has got with the president of the United States, although the Germans, for the first time since the Second World War, are committing troops to an outer area task outside of Europe.
ZAHN: Which is a stunning change.
BUTLER: Incredible. But all of this suggest to me that Tony -- what Tony Blair's done has been fabulous, but he probably should attend a bit to things at home because we need Europe and we need him. We need it all to hang together, and he's got a domestic political base he needs to attend to as well I think.
ZAHN: But of course this comes at a time when President Bush has to lean on him enormously...
BUTLER: And has...
ZAHN: ... to continue to sell this action...
BUTLER: Absolutely.
ZAHN: ... to other nations in Europe.
BUTLER: Absolutely. So what are we saying? This is a complex picture. It's a big task this war on terrorism. We need help from many quarters, from Pakistan, from Europe, and so on. We're getting it form the Germans for the first time in 50 years, but it ain't over yet, and Tony Blair obviously needs to attend to public opinion a bit at home. You see it's a big task we've got on our hands, and it's very complex.
ZAHN: Yes, he has a job for a long, long time now.
BUTLER: Oh yes, five years.
ZAHN: He's got, what, five more years?
BUTLER: He just got reelected five years.
ZAHN: Yes, so those poll numbers can slide. He's got a lot of time to build those back up.
BUTLER: Well let's hope they can talk a bit about the Israel- Palestine thing because that worries me a lot, too. I think it's in a bad state.
ZAHN: We will bring you back later on in the week to address that.
BUTLER: OK, all right.
ZAHN: Richard Butler,...
BUTLER: Good to see you.
ZAHN: ... as always, good to have our ambassador in residence.
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