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CNN Live At Daybreak

Defense Secretary Rumsfeld Says That Pakistani Forces Will Do Heavy Lifting in Catching Al Qaeda Fighters Escaping from Afghanistan

Aired December 20, 2001 - 05:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CATHERINE CALLAWAY, CNN ANCHOR: We now have the complete, exclusive interview with American Taliban John Walker that was given right after he was captured. Now, initially Walker expressed some reluctance to be taped. But with the camera rolling and the lights on he told his story to CNN's Robert Pelton. And in this part of the interview, Walker speaks about how he came to be the with Taliban and the events following his capture by Northern Alliance forces inside northern Afghanistan.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN WALKER: When we withdrew from Takar (ph), we walked by foot maybe more than 100 miles. Afterwards, I was very sick for the whole period, until we came to Mazir-i-Sharif. I was just, I wasn't really in any condition to be able to be able to research these other things.

BOB PELTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Were you with the Taliban all that time or were you doing something else?

WALKER: No, the Taliban have a separate branch in the army for the Afghans and they have the non-Afghans. I was with a certain branch for the non-Afghans.

PELTON: What is the non-Afghani branch called?

WALKER: It's called Ansar. It means the helpers.

PELTON: Is that the same as the 055 Brigade?

WALKER: I'm not familiar with that.

PELTON: That's a term -- I was with the Taliban in 1995.

WALKER: Really?

PELTON: Yes, and they were explaining that they had the 055 Brigade and then...

WALKER: It has, yes, they have a number name. I don't know remember the number.

PELTON; You have a slight accent. Do you have a... WALKER: I haven't spoken English with native speakers in several months. I've been speaking Arabic. So -- I've been living overseas for about two years also.

PELTON: Really? And how did you get to Afghanistan? Because some friends of mine fought in Chechnya.

WALKER: Really?

PELTON: Did you go through the Mudjh trail (ph) or did you just come here and volunteer?

WALKER: I was a student in Pakistan studying Islam and I came into contact with many people who were connected with the Taliban. I lived in a region, in a northwest frontier province. The people there in general have a great love for the Taliban. So I started to read some of the literature of their scholars and the history of the movement. And just, my heart became attached to them. I wanted to help them one way or another. So I had the opportunity to come.

PELTON: Do you have any military skills or were you just sort of...

WALKER: No, I don't.

PELTON: Did you attend any of those camps where they train you?

WALKER: Several training camps.

PELTON: Because a friend of mine was American and they had to hide him from the Secret Service all the time. And he want to fight in Kashmir

WALKER: In Pakistan? Yes, that's how it is. They always hide the foreigners.

PELTON: I mean after this is all done, how do you feel? Do you feel like you were sort of, you did the right thing or -- well, do you feel now after there's been a number of losses on the Taliban side...

WALKER: With regard to this particular incident you mean?

PELTON: Yes.

WALKER: This was all the mistake of a handful of people.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CALLAWAY: Stay with us. Coming up in just a few minutes, we will hear from the man who conducted that interview, Robert Pelton.

Well, meanwhile President Bush is still considering recommendations on charges against John Walker. One option is to charge Walker under a federal law that bans assisting terrorists and terrorist organizations. Those charges carry a sentence of up to 10 years in prison for each count. Charging Walker with treason, which carries the death penalty, may be a less popular idea in the Bush administration. Officials believe the case may be difficult to prosecute and Walker could become a "media martyr." A final decision on charges could come this week.

John Walker is the subject of the latest CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll. Sixty-four percent of those questioned say they consider the American Taliban a traitor. Fourteen percent describe him as a prisoner of war and 17 percent think he is misguided.

Well, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld says that Pakistani forces will do what he calls the heavy lifting in catching al Qaeda fighters escaping from Afghanistan.

And as CNN's David Ensor reports, that heavy lifting leads to border tensions.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Tensions are high along the Pakistani border after a group of about 100 mostly Arab al Qaeda fighters arrested trying to leave Afghanistan staged a revolt and a shoot-out with Pakistani security forces.

RASHID QURESHI, PAKISTAN ARMY SPOKESMAN: One civilian and five security personnel died, and six to seven of these non-Afghan fighters were also killed.

ENSOR: At the Chaman border crossing, guards man their heavy guns and incoming vehicles are carefully checked, as seven battalions, thousands of additional Pakistani troops, are aided by intelligence officers on the ground and U.S. aircraft overhead, searching for additional al Qaeda stragglers who might try to slip into Pakistan after their defeat in nearby Tora Bora.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: The Pakistani army is doing a good job along the border of Afghanistan. They have captured a very large number, hundreds.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We could not have asked for better support from the Pakistani government than we are receiving.

ENSOR: Top of the most wanted list, of course, is Osama bin Laden. Pakistan's long border with Afghanistan could be crossed by the terrorist leader, analysts say, but he would not likely be safe there for long:

RICK INDERFURTH, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE: First of all, he's six foot five inches tall. It's going to be very difficult for him to blend in. He's also a recognizable figure, even if he shaves off his beard. So I think that at some point, if he has gone over to Pakistan, somebody will spot him and turn him in.

AHMED RASHID, AUTHOR, ``TALIBAN'': I think they will immediately turn him over to the United States. I think nobody in Pakistan wants to hold onto bin Laden, you know, or to open up any kind of trial of bin Laden on Pakistani soil, certainly, because it would just open up a can of worms.

ENSOR (on camera): Though there are bin Laden sympathizers in the tribal areas along the Pakistani-Afghan border, both U.S. and Pakistani officials argue that most Pakistanis would like to see an end to al Qaeda. And then there is that $25 million reward. So most analysts argue that despite the defeat in Tora Bora, bin Laden would likely survive a little longer if he remains in the caves and mountains on the Afghan side.

David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CALLAWAY: We're going to get now the latest on the border patrol and what's going on in Tora Bora.

We're going to go to the Pentagon and speak this morning with CNN's Bob Constantini. Good to see you this morning. What's the latest word from the Pentagon?

BOB CONSTANTINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, good morning, Catherine.

With the war on terrorism in a manhunt phase, officials here are starting to question whether local anti-Taliban fighters are strong and disciplined enough to complete the cave by cave searches in the Tora Bora region. Military leaders are considering the idea of increasing U.S. special forces presence in the mountains where cave entrances have been clogged with rubble from days of heavy bombardment. And there are signs many al Qaeda fighters have fled toward Pakistan, but Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld says the terrorist organization is still a threat.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUMSFELD: I would think that it would be a mistake to say that the al Qaeda is finished in Afghanistan at this stage. They certainly aren't functioning well. They're running and they're hiding and they're having difficulty communicating with each other. But a large number of them seem to behave in a fanatical way and I suspect that we'll hear more of them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CONSTANTINI: The U.S. has halted all bombing in the Tora Bora region to allow the searches of those caves to go on.

Now, as for the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden, Secretary Rumsfeld would only say -- he was peppered with questions by reporters during Wednesday's briefing and he would only say that bin Laden may be dead inside one of those caves or he might have escaped -- Catherine.

CALLAWAY: And before we leave, I want to ask you a question about Walker. A lot of discussion about John Walker today and I'm just various if there's been a lot of deliberation going on about how he should be treated. Anything from the Pentagon on that?

CONSTANTINI: Well, military leaders are going to have some say and they are making recommendations to the president. But the ultimate decision will be up to President Bush. And he is taking recommendations not only from military leaders, but from the Justice Department and from experts in this field.

And as we've reported before, CNN has learned that those recommendations are leading away from charging Walker with treason which, of course, would carry the death penalty, but more or less they would like to charge him, perhaps, with aiding terrorist organizations and each of those counts would carry a maximum of 10 years in prison.

Again, we are told by White House sources that Mr. Bush could have a decision by the end of this week -- Catherine.

CALLAWAY: All right, we look forward to that. Thank you.

CNN's Bob Constantini at the Pentagon this morning.

Thanks, Bob.

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