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CNN Live At Daybreak
Interview of Saeb Erakat, Daniel Shek
Aired April 01, 2002 - 05:34 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: As we told you a little earlier, we want to head back to the Middle East right now. Ariel Sharon has declared war on the Palestinians. And joining me now, Israeli Senior Government Spokesman, Daniel Shek, who is live in Jerusalem -- thank you for joining us this morning, Mr. Shek.
DANIEL SHEK, ISRAELI SENIOR GOVERNMENT SPOKESMAN: Good morning to you -- good morning.
COSTELLO: Good morning. Ariel Sharon says it is war now. Does that mean he will step up even more militarily?
SHEK: It's war, but it's not war on the Palestinians. It's war on terrorism. You may call it a war of independence, because Israel wants to live independently of terror.
COSTELLO: How can you not say it's a war on Palestinians, when Israeli troops are going door to door and rounding up so many Palestinian men?
SHEK: Well, they are rounding up people who are connected one way or another with the terrorist operations. They are gunmen, they are people who are armed, they are people who are either organizing, perpetrating, inciting, gathering illegal arms, gathering explosives. Those are the people that are being routed out, not innocent bystanders, who, if you ask me, should be counted among the victims of terrorism. I think that the general population of the Palestinians is paying a price for what the leadership and the terrorist organizations are doing to Israel.
COSTELLO: The last time Israel went and rounded up Palestinian men, did it really yield much?
SHEK: You know, war against terrorism is not a quick fix thing. It's something that -- it's an ongoing effort. There is a lot do, unfortunately. And I think the situation going on in Israel proves it, that suicide bombings go on and on. This effort will continue until we reach the successes that we need. Because the idea that Israel will continue to live under the threat of terrorism, that Israelis will not be able to lead a normal life in the city centers in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and Haifa, this is simply not an option. And everyone who has anything to do with this should understand this very well and very quickly. COSTELLO: The goal of the Israeli military is to isolate Yasser Arafat. I think a lot of people have trouble figuring out what the term isolating Yasser Arafat really means.
SHEK: You know, quite truly, I'm not really concerned about Yasser Arafat. I think he's not the main issue here. This is not -- I was asked, you know, "Aren't you contributing to the popularity of Yasser Arafat?" Quite honestly, that is of no concern to us. His popularity doesn't matter. We are not -- this is not a popularity contest. We are talking about dozens and dozens of people, Israelis and Palestinians, who are losing their lives for no good reason simply because the Palestinian Authority and the Palestinian leadership refuse to do what they are expected to do according to the Oslo accords, which is to pursue terrorists instead of endorsing and encouraging them.
If they can't do it and they are not prepared to follow the suggestions of an American envoy that they have asked to intervene, General Anthony Zinni, who tried for two or three weeks to bring about a cease-fire -- he met on the Israeli side, a lot of help and a lot of encouragement. Israel made a number of one-sided actions, but on the Palestinian side, only a stone wall expected him. So if that doesn't work...
COSTELLO: OK, Mr. Shek, I want to interrupt you for just a second.
SHEK: ... then we will have to do other measures.
COSTELLO: I understand. I want to interrupt you for just a second, so we can bring in Saeb Erakat, who is a senior Palestinian negotiator. Mr. Erakat, are you with us?
SAEB ERAKAT, CHIEF PALESTINIAN NEGOTIATOR: Yes, I'm with you.
COSTELLO: Have the Palestinians -- can the Palestinians root out the terrorists? There seems to be an unending supply of suicide bombers.
ERAKAT: Well, all I can say to the Israelis and to Daniel is, please, live and let live.
COSTELLO: What do you mean by that?
ERAKAT: They are the last occupying power on earth. They are occupying 3.3 million Palestinians who are subjugated against our will. We are confined to our towns, villages, refugee camps. Caged like animals without food, without water, without medical supplies. And we said to the Israelis, you know, "Please implement Oslo." Implement -- Oslo was all about ending the Israeli occupation.
How many settlements did Mr. Sharon build in the last eight months in the West Bank and Gaza? Thirty-four new settlements. This government is trying to sustain the occupation, maintain the occupation. This cannot work. The shortest way to save lives with Israelis and Palestinians is to end this Israeli occupation. We have recognized the state of Israel. We have...
COSTELLO: Mr. Erakat, though -- Mr. Erakat, there have been five suicide bombings in the last five days. Many people have been killed. Why can't that kind of thing stop?
ERAKAT: That's precisely -- first of all, we don't condone the killing of Israeli civilians. But that's precisely the point. I think this question should go to Sharon. If you go with your tanks, your guns, your siege, your...
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: But, Mr. Erakat, may I interrupt once again?
ERAKAT: You aggress Arafat, and yet -- and yet you have these suicide bombings happening. Maybe you should reverse course. Maybe you should focus on one thing: that a resumption of a meaningful peace process is the answer to provide security and peace for Palestinians and Israelis. And as far as General Zinni is concerned, we have exerted every possible effort. We are willing, and I'm on the record saying we are willing to implement 100 percent of Tenet and Mitchell recommendations as they were written. And this is the positive answer we gave to General Zinni. So please, don't speak on our -- on our behalf about what we did with General Zinni.
COSTELLO: Mr. Arafat has asked for international forces to come into the mix. Would that help, Mr. Shek?
SHEK: Well, quite honestly, I don't believe so. I think that the United States is playing a very important role in bringing about a cease-fire. And, you know, I'm prepared to take Mr. Erakat's word for it. The only problem is that General Zinni didn't understand it that way, and he understood the Palestinian position as being a "No." That is also our impression.
International forces in the situation we are right now, I believe, would not be helpful. They have to come in the framework of an agreement. An agreement has to be reached first and foremost between the parties directly concerned with the help of a facilitator like the United States. We welcome General Zinni's mission. He is still here, it is still not too late to say "Yes" to General Zinni.
COSTELLO: You know, you both say that, that you want General Zinni to continue on in his peace-enforcing efforts, but it doesn't seem that the two sides can sit down and come up with any sort of compromise. It just seems that the violence keeps on escalating.
(CROSSTALK)
SHEK: I don't see what a compromise could be in the sense of a cease-fire. A cease-fire is a cease-fire. It is when you stop violence, when you consider suicide bombers not as heroes, not as role models for the Palestinian society, but rather as enemies of peace. There is nothing of that on the Palestinian side. So if the fire ceases...
COSTELLO: Mr. Erakat, can you address that?
SHEK: ... then we can get back to diplomacy.
ERAKAT: Carol -- Carol, I want to address that now. As you're talking to me, there are five explosions in the refugee camps of Amari in Ramallah and in Colombia (ph). Since then -- in the last three days, there are 32 Palestinians who were killed in Ramallah. Please see that.
But to Mr. Shek, I would say, we have resolution 1402. That's been sponsored by the United States. It has five elements: a cease- fire -- and immediate cease-fire, withdrawal, implementation of Tenet and Mitchell and political settlement. I am on the record, quote me. I am fully accepting this resolution on behalf of President Arafat and the Palestinian people. We are willing to abide by it.
Do you abide by it? Are you willing to sit immediately with General Zinni in order to implement the resolution 1402, which calls for an immediate cease-fire, for withdrawal, for implementation of Tenet and Mitchell. Enough wars, enough scoring points, enough speaking about you being the Americans in Afghanistan. The Americans in Afghanistan are rebuilding Afghanistan, building schools, allowing girls to go back to school.
You are destroying us. You're destroying our livelihood in your occupation. You're destroying our infrastructures, you're destroying our hospitals. Please, live and let live. We have recognized you in 78 percent of mandatory Palestine, and we want to establish our Palestinian state next to you on the remaining 22 percent of the land.
COSTELLO: Mr. Erakat -- Mr. Erakat, by saying that, if Mr. Arafat really wants that, why doesn't he come out and condemn these suicide bombings?
ERAKAT: How many times did he condemn the suicide bombings? I think President Arafat was the first to condemn the suicide bombings and the killings...
COSTELLO: Then why don't they stop?
ERAKAT: How can you ask this question? How can you ask Arafat to do anything when he's now confined to one room without running water, without communication. How can you ask this? This is ridiculous. Sharon has destroyed our communication centers, our command centers. He's arresting the policemen. On your TV you saw it.
He's arresting the same people he wants them to do the job. This is a pretext. Sharon's end game is to destroy the peace process, is to destroy the Palestinian Authority and is to kill President Arafat. Sharon is a man who believes ideologically that a strong and united Israel needs enemies at its borders and not good neighborly relations. Sharon is the prime minister who voted against the Egyptian-Israeli peace treaty, against the Jordanian-Israeli peace treaty.
COSTELLO: Allow me to interrupt for just a second so Mr. Shek can get a word in here. You'll have the last word. Can you respond to Mr. Erakat?
SHEK: Yes. Well, sure. First of all, I want everyone to remember that the last wave of violence, what the Palestinians call the second intifada, and that I call the second wave of terror, had nothing to do with Sharon. It started under Prime Minister Barak, who was the prime minister who made the most -- General, I beg your pardon. I didn't interrupt you.
ERAKAT: No, I'm reminding you it was Sharon who went to...
SHEK: No, don't remind me.
COSTELLO: Mr. Erakat, please.
SHEK: Please, please, I want to speak freely here as I let you speak freely.
ERAKAT: No, all I'm telling you is that Sharon...
(CROSS TALK)
SHEK: You had your moment, Mr. Erakat. Please, let me finish my sentence. Mr. Arafat opted for the road of violence not against Sharon, but against Barak. And he had ample time -- while he was free to move around the territories -- to move to the end of the world; he had ample time to condemn and to route out terrorism. He didn't do anything. Today, he is confined and isolated because he has shown no willingness to fight terrorism.
There is no point in asking him to do so, because instead of fighting terrorism he endorses it and he encourages it. That is the problem today. And, therefore, it is Israeli troops who will protect Israeli lives.
COSTELLO: And this is where we end it. Thank you both for joining us this morning. Saeb Erakat, who is a senior Palestinian negotiator, and Daniel Shek, who is an Israeli senior government spokesman.
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