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CNN Live At Daybreak

New Jersey Flooding; Mercy Killings?; Latest on Rebellion on Southern Russia; Natural Gas Prices Heat Up

Aired October 13, 2005 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Let's take a look at the Northeastern states now, because, as you say, Chad, they've been hammered by, what, seven straight days of rain. And we mean heavy rain. These pictures are from Newhaven, Connecticut from our affiliate, WTNH. There were flood warnings all day yesterday for most of northwestern Connecticut.
CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes.

COSTELLO: And there have been evacuations in, what, New Jersey and also in Long Island, New York.

MYERS: Well, it's all very localized, Carol. If you live near a creek or a stream, and at the headwaters of that creek or stream it rained a lot yesterday. Now all of the water is running downhill. And you get flooded in your creek or stream area.

And it's going to be localized like that again today. Some spots -- literally a county over, some spots will get six, the county over will get two. If you're the unlucky one that gets six, you have to be watching out.

COSTELLO: Yes. Speaking of unlucky ones, Heidi Collins met a bunch of them in New Jersey. So, let's take a look at that.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HEIDI COLLINS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Oakland, New Jersey, people are fond of nature, but there are times when enough is enough.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell the Army Corps of Engineers to fix the dam!

COLLINS: Lena Fricker (ph) doesn't even want to talk about it anymore. The Pompton Dam project has been in the works for three years and is supposed to help control flooding in these neighborhoods.

Instead, residents say it's pushing the water right back towards their homes.

WALTER VOLMER, RESIDENT: Yesterday, we had about four feet of water, and it was just a complete nuisance.

COLLINS: Walter Volmer cleans up what he can. But after more than 12 inches of rain in just six days, he and his neighbors know there is more to come.

THOMAS HANNAH, RESIDENT: It's ridiculous, because we've got so much water in our basement.

COLLINS: We caught up with 14-year-old Thomas Hannah after he got dropped off fairly far from home. His school bus couldn't make it through the flooded streets.

(on camera): And this is your house right here?

HANNAH: This one right here.

COLLINS (voice-over): He took us to his basement where everything was destroyed, and showed us where the water ruined baby books, pictures, valuables they couldn't save when they evacuated over the weekend.

HANNAH: Everything's ruined from the flood the other night, so it's all destroyed, and we didn't even get a chance to clean it fully up yet.

COLLINS: No time to clean up. And for his mom, no intention of leaving a second time.

LINDA HANNAH, RESIDENT: We're going to get evacuated, but we're not going to leave this time, because we already lost everything.

Heidi Collins, CNN, Oakland, New Jersey.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: Oh, but, Linda, you have your life. You should listen to those mandatory evacuation orders. It's what the experts tell us.

There is still much more ahead here on day. Coming up next, allegations that a hospital in New Orleans. What really happened there in the wake of Hurricane Katrina? It's a report you can only see here on CNN.

But first, let's take a look at how the international markets are faring this morning. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: We've all heard the phrase "desperate times call for desperate measures." That gained new meaning in the wake of Hurricane Katrina. That's when we sea people looting to live. But can those desperate measures go too far? And in New Orleans, did they?

CNN's Jonathan Freed takes a look at serious allegations at one city hospital. It's a story you'll only see on CNN.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JONATHAN FREED, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): There was no power. Patients and staff thought they were stranded in 110-degree sweltering heat. It was desperate.

DR. BRYANT KING, PRACTICED AT MEMORIAL MEDICAL CENTER: I was really upset that it had come to this. And we were -- we were a hospital, but we weren't really functioning as a hospital. We were functioning as a shelter at this point.

FRAN BUTLER, NURSE MANAGER, MEMORIAL MEDICAL CENTER: It was battle conditions. I mean, it was as bad as being out on the field.

FREED: They were running out of food and water. Workers carried patients into the parking garage to wait for evacuations, but there were too few rescuers and often too late.

KING: There's no electricity. There's no water. It's hot. I mean, people are dying. We thought it was as bad as it could get. All we wanted to know is, why aren't we being evacuated yet? That was our biggest thing. We should be gone by now.

FREED: Nine days after the hospital was finally emptied, there were dozens of bodies -- in the morgue, in the hallways and in the chapel. In all, hospital officials now say 45 bodies were found at Memorial.

Some patients, already near death when Katrina hit, may have succumbed to their ailments. Others may have given in to the terrible conditions.

(on camera): But a CNN investigation reveals that doctors and nurses grew so desperate that some of them openly and repeatedly discussed euthanizing patients whom they believed would not survive their ordeal. So desperate, there was talk of mercy killings, talk of mercy killings by health professionals as a serious option at an American hospital.

BUTLER: My nurses wanted to know, what was the plan? Did they say to put people out of their misery? Yes. Did they say to actually -- they wanted to know how to get them out of their misery.

FREED (voice-over): To be clear, Butler says she did not see anyone perform a mercy killing. And she says, because of her personal beliefs, she never would have participated.

But at least one doctor there, Bryant King, is convinced it went beyond just talk.

KING: Most people know that something -- something happened that shouldn't have happened.

FREED: What Dr. King says he witnessed is a key element of an investigation by the Louisiana attorney general. The state constitution expressly forbids euthanasia. And prosecutors say charges could include manslaughter.

In exclusive interviews with CNN, Dr. King says he was approached at about 9:00 a.m. on Thursday in the despair three days after the hurricane by another doctor. According to King, that doctor recounted a conversation with a hospital administrator and another doctor, who suggested that patients be put out of their misery.

KING: I mean, you've got to be (EXPLETIVE DELETED) kidding me, that you actually think that that's a good idea. I mean, how could you possibly think that that's a good idea?

And she said, well, you know, we talked about it, and this other doctor said she'd be willing to -- she would be willing to do it. And I was like, you're crazy!

FREED: King says, at the time, he dismissed the talk, because the doctor who had told him of the mercy-killing conversation indicated that, like him, she opposed it.

(on camera): Then, about three hours later, King says he noticed an uneasy quiet. The triage area, where he was working, on the second floor had been cleared of everyone, except for patients, a second hospital administrator and two doctors, including the one who had first raised the question of mercy killing.

(voice-over): King says the administrator asked if they wanted to join in prayer, something they hadn't done since the ordeal began.

KING: Well, I looked around. And one of the other physicians, not the one who had the conversation with me, but another, had a handful of syringes. I don't know what's in the syringes. I don't know what's -- and the only thing I heard her say is, "I'm going to give you something to make you feel better."

I don't know what she was going to give them. But we hadn't been given -- we hadn't been giving medications like that to make people feel better or any sort of palliative care or anything like that. We hadn't been doing that up to this point.

FREED: King says he decided he would have no part of what he was seeing. He grabbed his bag to leave. And he says, one of the other doctors hugged him.

King says he doesn't know what happened next. He boarded a boat and left the hospital.

As for nurse manager Fran Butler, she says she never saw any patients euthanized. However, she said the physician who had expressed opposition to euthanasia to Dr. King also spoke to her about it.

BUTLER: She was the first person to approach me about putting patients to sleep.

FREED (on camera): Were you stunned?

BUTLER: Just kind of -- I kind of blew it off because of the person who said it. But when this doctor approached me about that, she made the comment to me on how she was totally against it and wouldn't do it.

FREED (voice-over): Tenet Healthcare, the company that owns Memorial, told CNN that many of the 45 patients who died were critically ill.

Tenet said, as many as 11 patients who were found in the morgue had died the weekend before the hurricane. Twenty-four of the dead had been patients of a long-term acute care facility known as LifeCare that rented space inside Memorial.

KING: And there was only one person that died overnight. The previous day, there were only two. So, for there to be -- from Thursday to Friday for there to be 10 times that many just doesn't make sense to me.

FREED: Earlier this month, King repeated his account to investigators from the attorney general's office. At the request of the attorney general, coroner Frank Minyard is performing autopsies and drug screens on all the Memorial dead.

He confirmed to CNN that state officials have told him they think euthanasia may have been committed.

DR. FRANK MINYARD, CORONER, ORLEANS PARISH: Well, they thought that someone had -- was going around, injecting people with some sort of lethal medication, yes.

FREED: Minyard says that because of the condition of the bodies it may be difficult to determine why so many patients died at Memorial.

In early October, Tenet Healthcare said that the state had executed search warrants of Memorial Medical Center records and at the independent LifeCare facility operated inside the hospital.

Over the course of several weeks, CNN has reached the three people King says were in the second-floor area with him at the time he saw the syringes. The hospital administrator told CNN, "I don't recall being in a room with patients or saying a prayer," later adding that King must be lying.

The doctor King identifies as having first broached the subject of euthanasia with him said she would not talk to the media. The doctor King alleges held the syringes spoke by phone with CNN on several occasions, emphasizing how everyone inside the hospital felt abandoned.

"We did everything humanly possible to save these patients," the doctor told CNN. "The government totally abandoned us to die, in the houses, in the streets, in the hospitals. Maybe a lot of us made mistakes, but we made the best decisions we could at the time."

When told about King's allegation, this doctor responded that she would not comment either way.

Nurse manager Fran Butler says that, while some nurses did discuss euthanasia, they never stopped caring for the patients.

BUTLER: The people who were still there, they really and truly took and put their heart and souls into every patient, whether that patient lived or died.

FREED: For his part, King regrets leaving the hospital and wonders whether there was anything he could have done.

KING: I'd rather be considered a person who abandoned patients than someone who aided in eliminating patients.

FREED (on camera): The two health care companies we mentioned in this piece both chose to give CNN prepared statements.

Tenet Healthcare Corporation said, "In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, the physicians and staff at Memorial Medical Center performed heroically to save the lives of their patients under incredibly difficult circumstances."

The statement goes on to say: "We understand that the Louisiana attorney general is investigating all deaths that occurred at New Orleans hospitals and nursing homes after the hurricane. And we fully support and are cooperating with him."

Now, LifeCare, the long-term acute care facility, said: "LifeCare employees at Memorial Medical Center during that week exhibited heroism under the most difficult of circumstances. LifeCare is not aware of any discussions involving euthanasia at Memorial Medical Center."

Jonathan Freed, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: And joining me now from Philadelphia is noted bioethicist Dr. Arthur Caplan of the University of Pennsylvania.

Good morning, sir.

ART CAPLAN, BIOETHICIST: Good morning.

COSTELLO: We heard from Jonathan's report that there were conversations about mercy killing. Should there have even been conservations?

CAPLAN: Euthanasia means involuntary killing. It means the patient hasn't asked. It means there has been no request from a competent person. It's absolutely illegal.

The only situations I can think of where it might, might be ethical is if you've got someone who is suffering horribly, nothing else to offer them. You know that they're going to die for sure. And you don't want them to be there suffering. That's not actually really euthanasia. It's trying to control pain and risking death.

COSTELLO: And by that...

CAPLAN: That may be what the discussions were.

COSTELLO: By that -- because I want to make it clear. By that, you mean if you administer a certain kind of drug -- I don't know. I don't know what...

CAPLAN: Morphine. If you use morphine.

COSTELLO: Morphine, right? As opposed to something else, which would automatically kill the patient, that's different.

CAPLAN: Right. So you might...

COSTELLO: Explain.

CAPLAN: You might -- when you've got somebody in terrible pain. Viewers will be familiar with cancer, and it spreads out to the bones, and people suffer horribly. You may be in a situation where you have to push so much morphine to control that pain that you think these people may die. This patient may die if I do that. But you're going to risk it.

In looking at the report, you wonder was somebody thinking, we've got people on ventilators. If the power goes out, if there is no more power, they're going to suffocate to death right in front of us, because they're on these machines. Would we then push pain-relieving drugs upon them, knowing they're so frail they might die?

COSTELLO: And, you know, when you're trained to be a doctor, everything goes against that. So, tell us about the agony that those doctors and health care professionals were feeling at that time.

CAPLAN: Well, you've got very frail people. They're dependent on technology. The power is going out. You know as a physician, as a nurse, that your duty is -- you're duty bound to do no harm. That's the core ethical principle of medicine, and it's the first principle of medical ethics.

Yet, it may be that the only option you can think of, if these people are going to be left, as I said, suffocating, hungry, gasping for breath, because there's no power. Nothing can run their equipment. You don't want them to suffer.

So, the tension is, is it part of my ethic ever to do something I know is illegal, I know I could be punished for, to help hasten their death if there's no way to wave them?

COSTELLO: So, if this happened, and Louisiana investigators are investigating this, and those doctors who might have done this might be charged with manslaughter, what else might happen to them? And if that's the case and they -- well, I don't know. How could you not charge them?

CAPLAN: Well, you have to charge them. I think that if you've got suspicious deaths, the state, the attorney general absolutely must investigate. It has to be established if something was done to hasten or cause the deaths of these people.

From a prosecution point of view, though, if there really was some mercy killing involved, I will tell you this: The only person I know of in the United States who has ever been put in jail for a clear-cut mercy killing, trying to help someone not suffer, is Jack Kevorkian. In general juries, in general judges, have some sympathy when a doctor says I just couldn't stand the suffering. I couldn't stand this horrible pain. They were going to die inevitably. I tried to control the circumstances.

Now, I don't know if the New Orleans situation will get anything close to that. But if it does, that's a tough case to get more than probation, community service. People generally have some sympathy for those rare instances where it looks like the only thing you can do is to help make death painless.

COSTELLO: Well, we're going to continue to follow this story and see what happens. Dr. Caplan, thanks for joining DAYBREAK this morning.

CAPLAN: My pleasure.

COSTELLO: We'll be back with more after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: We've been telling you a bit about this story all morning long. There is fighting going on in southern Russia between rebel forces and police, and perhaps the military. It's been very difficult for us to get information out. But now we have word that hostages have been taken, and people have been killed.

Ryan Chilcote is in Atlanta. He is usually in Russia. And he's managed to call up some sources to find out more information for us.

What have you found out, Ryan?

RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol.

Well, what we know at this point is, just within the last few minutes, the Russian president's envoy to southern Russia has said that militants have taken hostages at a Russian police station in that southern Russian city of Nalchik.

What we do not know from the presidential envoy in that area is exactly how many hostages are inside of that police station, and whether they are policemen or whether these are civilians that have been brought there.

This is just the most recent episode, the most recent event in the fighting that has been taking place in this city all day. It is now afternoon in Nalchik. The fighting began this morning. Russian forces saying that some 60 to 300, depending on who you listen to, militants attacked several government institutions in that city at daybreak. They have been there all day.

Russian forces saying -- that at this point, the presidential envoy is saying that 17 people have been killed. About half of those -- more than half of those, civilians among them, are five policemen.

The presidential envoy is also saying that the militants that are behind this attack have also suffered some very serious losses, estimating that perhaps dozens of them have been killed.

Russian forces saying that these militants are Wahhabis, followers of a conservative Islamic sect that have been operating in that area. They are saying that this is a response -- the Russian government is saying this is a response to their crackdown on Wahhabis' illegal activities in that region -- Carol.

COSTELLO: All right. Ryan Chilcote, thanks for filling us in. We appreciate it.

Are we going to take a short break? Yes? Yes, we are. We're going to take a short break. We'll be back with how you can save money on your natural gas prices this coming winter. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Hurricanes Katrina and Rita hit hard in so many ways, including energy production. And government researchers now say we could see some heating costs up nearly 50 percent this winter.

With 55 percent of homes using natural gas, owners can expect to pay nearly $1,100 more this season if the weather is typical. Now, if it's much colder than predicted, expect to pay an extra $1,200.

For some ideas on what we can do to save money, let's check in with David Kolata. He's the executive director of the Citizens Utility Board, which is based in Chicago.

Good morning.

DAVID KOLATA, CITIZENS UTILITY BOARD: Good morning.

COSTELLO: So, we're hearing -- I mean, there are reports everywhere. But we're hearing in the Midwest, the price for natural gas could go up as much as 77 percent. That just seems crazy to me.

KOLATA: Yes, it's going to be a tough winter for consumers. It was -- we were at record highs already before the hurricanes hit. Then after the hurricanes, it made a bad situation worse.

So, this is going to be a very tough winter for consumers. And, you know, we need all the help we can get to make sure we can pay our bills.

COSTELLO: But, you know, David, we hear about the rising, you know, price of oil. And we know the oil companies are making all of this money. Couldn't we say the same of the utility companies come this winter?

KOLATA: Well, it's absolutely true. I mean, on the one hand, there are some legitimate reasons for the price spike. More of our natural gas is being used to generate electricity. So, demand has increased, raising prices.

But the last time prices spiked about four years ago, at the time the utilities said, hey, there is nothing we can do about it. It's simply the laws of economics. And lo and behold it turned out that there was the Enron scandal and a whole bunch of market manipulation going on.

So, consumers have reason to be skeptical of these high prices. And, you know, we hope that the federal government will do everything in its power to make sure that...

COSTELLO: Well, what can...

KOLATA: ... the markets have integrity.

COSTELLO: What can the consumer or the federal government do?

KOLATA: Well, let me start first with federal government. After the Enron scandal, there was -- they set up a market monitoring unit at the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. We hope that the market monitoring unit will take a proactive stance to ensure that, in fact, customers are paying a fair price, to look at the system ahead of time instead of retroactively to make sure no one is gaming the system.

As far as what consumers can do, I think there are two big tips. First, most utilities have a budget plan. And now would be a good time to sign up for that. This won't save you money over the course of a year, but it will even out your payments, which will help the family budget.

COSTELLO: OK, pause right there...

KOLATA: Second, if...

COSTELLO: Pause right there, because I know that Chad had a question about exactly that thing. Go ahead, Chad.

KOLATA: Sure.

MYERS: You know, also you can lock or you can float. And right now, it's about the same price, about a buck 75 a therm. I also want to know from you, what is a therm? I can get my hands around a gallon. I can get my hands around a barrel.

KOLATA: A therm is...

MYERS: But it's 100,000 BTUs. What does that mean?

KOLATA: A therm is simply a unit of heat, a unit of consumption, a measure of energy.

MYERS: How do I know when I've used one?

KOLATA: Well, you know, the utilities are coming out. They read your meter. And that shows up on your bill. So, certainly this would be a good time for people out there if you've ever thought about investing in energy-efficient technology, now would be a good time to do it. The typical home can save about 25 to 50 percent on energy bills simply by investing in new insulation and high energy-efficient windows.

So, it's a little more expensive right now, but the payback, given the high energy costs, this winter will be very quick.

COSTELLO: David, let's go back to the therm, because I have heard -- you know, the gas company comes out and it will read your meter every three months or so, right?

KOLATA: Sure, yes.

COSTELLO: But because energy prices are going to be so high this year, isn't it better to have them read your meter every month? Because if you're doing energy-saving things, you want to reap the benefit in your savings month to month, right?

KOLATA: Absolutely. And in most states, you can request the people come out and actually do a meter visit. And we would encourage consumers to do that.

We would also encourage consumers to call their attorney general or their consumer advocate organization in their state if they have any questions about their bill. Sometimes, especially when prices spike, we see there are billing errors. And if you go to our Web site, www.citizensutilityboard.org, there will be contact information for all attorney generals and consumer advocates in all 50 states.

COSTELLO: OK. I'm sure everyone is writing down that Web site. And we'll get it to you. Just send us an e-mail, and we'll get it to you. David Kolata, thank you so much. We appreciate it.

Oh, we're over. From the Time Warner center in New York, I'm Carol Costello along with Chad. "AMERICAN MORNING" starts right now.

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