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Laura Coates Live

Trump Loses Appeals To Delay Criminal Trial; Laura Coates Interviews Senator Raphael Warnock; Trial Begins In Bizarre Idaho "Zombie" Murders; Tiger Woods: I Hurt Every Day. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired April 10, 2024 - 23:00   ET




LAURA COATES, CNN HOST: Well, Donald Trump is 0 for 3 with New York appellate judges. He may be taking the whole, if at first you don't succeed, thing a little too far. I'll explain.

Plus, Democratic Senator Reverend Raphael Warnock is also here. We'll talk abortion, the election, and Donald Trump's claim that Election Day ought to be Christian Visibility Day.

And does Tiger Woods have one more magic master's moment in him? His former coach joins us live on the comeback story, "Brewing in Augusta." Tonight on "Laura Coates Live."

So, remember when Donald Trump said he was going to win so much, you'd get tired of it?


DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're going to win so much, you're going to get tired of winning. You're going to say, please, Mr. President, I have a headache. Please, don't -- don't win so much, this is getting terrible.


COATES: Are you tired yet? Former president, he's not exactly piling up on the wins, is he? Clearly, the third time is not a charm because for the third time in three days, a New York appeals court judge has denied his attempt to delay, delay, delay.

Now, he is just five days away from becoming the very first former president to go on criminal trial, accused of falsifying business records to cover up an alleged affair with adult film star Stormy Daniels.

Now, he wanted to stop the New York trial from going ahead so he could appeal a lower court's ruling on presidential immunity and have the judge off the case through recusal. It only took the appellate court judge a few minutes to say, nope.

It's about how long it took Trump to respond as well, by the way, because just today, he launched into a rant on social media, calling Judge Juan Merchan, and I'm quoting him here -- quote -- "highly conflicted and corrupt," in all caps because it's got to be in all caps. He also claimed his -- quote -- "hatred for me has no bounds."

Now, you've heard me say this before, but it does bear repeating tonight. In the realm of good ideas, insulting the judge who is watching and presiding over your trial, it ain't one of them, especially when that trial is set to begin on Monday, April 15th, Tax Day. Forget the letters IRS. Come Monday, it's all about the DA.

Joining me now is CNN legal analyst and former House Judiciary special counsel on Trump's first impeachment trial, Norm Eisen. He's also the editor of a brand-new book and it's out today. It's called "Trying Trump: A Guide to His First Election Interference Criminal Trial." Norm Eisen, how do you do it? The book is so timely --


-- as in days away, to have the first criminal trial. Let me just start with this idea of the third time being the charm here. Another motion was denied. The trial is set to start this coming Monday. But you have been a defense lawyer. You still are one. What are the last- minute delays that you are going to anticipate between now and Monday?

NORM EISEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I think that they shot three arrows out of the quiver, Laura. The last thing that Trump can probably do, um, defendants are sometimes known to have an illness, I don't think that that will go over very well.

COATES: So do high school students before a big test.


COATES: Uh-huh.

EISEN: The dog ate my subpoena, Your Honor. Um, I think that probably the last thing he could try, but it won't work because the law is very bad for Donald Trump on this delay tactic in New York. Fire your lawyers. Say, judge, I have a conflict, I have to fire my lawyers.

But that has been tried before in New York and rejected. And the thing we have to ask ourselves, and it's the core issue that I analyze in trying Trump, why is Trump so afraid of this case? And I think the answer is in the case summary, Laura, that the judge has announced he's going to read to the defendants.

He says that this case is about an agreement alleged to unlawfully influence the 2016 presidential election. Election interference. The judge is lifting this up as a case that's not about see me, tawdry, hush money. That's part of it.


But the headline, election interference, and that's why I put that in the title of the book. COATES: Another headline. Um, they have made 11 motions, 11 motions to delay or dismiss this case alone. There are, obviously, many other cases we're talking about here. But look at this litt1e chart here. I mean, most of them came in March and, of course, this month as well. You had that whole period of November, December, January, nothing happening. This tells me something about the last-minute flurry. What does it tell you?

EISEN: Um, it speaks to me of desperation on the part of Donald Trump. He and his lawyers are trying everything they can to block this case because the evidence is strong. New York law is very favorable to the DA on these issues of document falsification to, according to the judge, it's not me saying this, unlawfully influence an election, allegedly.

COATES: But Norm, is it --

EISEN: And the evidence is powerful.

COATES: But is it hesitation or procrastination? I mean, this is the last-ditch effort, 11 motions, many of which came in just the last month and a half alone. It's not as if this case was somehow, you know, dismissed or they had some inkling that it would be. Why now?

EISEN: A hanging focuses the mind wonderfully.


That's the old saying attributed, I think, to Dr. Boswell. And they -- Donald Trump is waking up and realizing, you know, he has lived a charmed legal life. He has dodged everything. Now, he's got a tough DA, strong law, not just a mere hush money case that's in it, but an important alleged election influencing case, kind of a gateway drug. Does this allegation sound familiar? Lying to voters to grasp power. That's also the pattern for 2020.

He sees that he could be convicted. And chapter eight of the book is a full sentencing memo like you used to do when you were a prosecutor. I'd pitch in the defense alternative. He faces a very serious prospect of a jail sentence if convicted.

COATES: This is why, I think, the book is important, but also this conversation, because, you know, in the -- in the in the world where we try to enlighten and inform, right, we have all these different cases that are on the -- on the docket. We keep calling it a hush money case. You're calling it the election interference case. The DA, Alvin Bragg, sees it that way as well.

EISEN: Alleged. That's the drama of this case, Laura. You and I talk about this. We do it on the air. We're friends. We talk about it off the air. Sometimes, you're the prosecutor and I'm the defense lawyer or we switch. This -- the drama of this case is going to be will Alvin Bragg persuade -- he has clearly persuaded the judge because in multiple papers, the judge is saying it's an alleged unlawful scheme to influence, to interfere with an election. Echoes of 2020. Will he persuade the jury of the seriousness of this and the court of public opinion?

COATES: This is where we want to go next, Norm Eisen. Thank you so much. Again, the book is called "Trying Trump."

So, again, just five days from now, potential jurors will be filing into a New York courtroom for jury duty. God, I wonder if they already have their summons right now. I'm wondering if this is the case we're going to be called for or not. We've already seen the pages-long questionnaire the jurors will have to fill out, including questions about affiliations with groups like QAnon, the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers or Antifa. And the questionnaire asks for potential jurors' opinions about whether a former president may be criminally charged in state court and about his treatment in this case.

Well, joining me now is jury consultant and body language expert, so I better straighten my spine, Susan Constantine. Nice to see you. We'll make eye contact so you don't ever think I'm lying. Here we go. Susan, let me ask you this.


COATES: Nice to meet you.


COATES: Who is the ideal juror if you're Donald Trump?

CONSTANTINE: If you're Donald Trump, what you want are those middle class or low income, middle class earners, blue collar, right? We want those blue-collar people, those that are law enforcement abiders, maybe bikers. These are hardworking people. And young African- Americans, you know, because they've been, you know, judged, wrongly accused in so many -- in so many situations. So, we're looking for egalitarians. So, overall, that's what we're looking for -- for Donald Trump.

COATES: Interestingly enough, when the idea of -- the law-abiding intrigues me on that because it might seem counterintuitive given the fact that he has been charged in across multiple jurisdictions. That might play very differently for those who believe that to be accused includes that you may have done something.


CONSTANTINE: Yes, this is very true, but yet look at what's happened, though, when, you know, we're going to look at Trump versus Biden, then all of this upheaval, and then crashing into the White House and so forth, that there are a lot of evangelicals and very strong, what I call middle class, hardcore, hard workers are -- were appalled.

So, in other words, they were storming in and they were -- and there was this big thing about law enforcement and law enforcement officers who were shunned. So, I think that they tend to favor more Donald Trump than they would, of course, with Biden. So, this is not the political part of it, but I think that this actually will play into it.

COATES: African-Americans, you also list in there, and that is something that Trump has said in the past, and to try to suggest that there is some camaraderie among those who have been judged and accused, I do wonder how that's going to play for him in New York in particular. But let me just ask the flip side. If you're the DA in this case, who is the ideal juror, do you think, for them?

CONSTANTINE: Yeah, so, what we're looking for is really strong, high- level educated people, managers, supervisors. These are people that are decision makers. And teachers. Teachers, they tend to be very authoritarian, be able to make decisions very swiftly. They tend to be more analytical in their thinking. So, that's what I would select for and look for in the opposite side.

COATES: Why teachers?

CONSTANTINE: Teachers are pretty judgmental sometimes. So, that's why I'm saying --

COATES: I remember that from my own schooling. You're right, Susan, they are judgmental. You're correct. Keep going.


CONSTANTINE: Yeah. So, you know, any time I've ever been in a case for, on the defense, we want to get rid of the teachers. That's not always true with everybody, but that's -- that's kind of the stigma that they carry.

COATES: I mean, it's -- it's in some respects guesswork to figure out if there is going to be the stereotype to suggest each of these different categories of people will have a particular leaning, and yet that is in many respects what can be used to go forward and figure out who might fit the mold that you're trying to persuade. But this is a very high-profile case, and I do wonder what are the most --


COATES: -- important things to look for in a juror in a case like this. I mean, some might be looking for their 15 minutes of fame. Some might be trying to be the disruptors, not the, you know, arbiters of the facts.

CONSTANTINE: Yeah, that's very true. So, the biggest deal, I think, that is going to be a problem here are those stealth jurors. That's what we need to look for. And you're going to -- there are going to be opportunity -- opportunistic jurors there. No doubt. This is a high- profile trial. Just imagine what they could gain from that.

But what we're looking for overall in reading out the jury is a stealth juror might be entirely very over vague or less engaging. They kind of hide or it's kind of hide and seek. You know, they want to be in the background. They don't pay -- there's not a lot of attention paid to them.

And those are the ones that are really scary because they're really thinking very deeply, but they're withholding their opinions.

Also, we're looking for those really over anxious ones and ones that are sitting up in their seat. They're leaning forward, they're smiling, and they're agreeable with everything. Yes, you know, I would be a great juror. No, no problem. I have 10 kids at home, no babysitter, no problem, I'll still be there. You know, these overly anxious. That's an exaggeration, but we have seen that. Those overanxious jurors want to get a jury. So, it's a competition.

But here's one of the things that I'm really more concerned about, too, is even though we see the jury, it's not jury selection, it's deselection, right? We know that. But on the other -- other hand of that, what we're -- we're looking for is that, you know, once we have a jury seated, what about all the maybe possible leaked information that kind of could -- we could lose some jurors along the way?

COATES: Oh, the idea of having alternates are going to be very important here. And also, I'm looking to see what -- what rules the judge imposes on these jurors. There is already a gag order in place with respect to Trump. Will this extend in many respects the jurors and, obviously, the privacy interests at stake?

But I agree with you there, Susan Constantine. If I had an overzealous juror who is so excited to be on a case, I mean, my ego might say, thank you. The other part of me would say, why do you want to be on this case?

Susan Constantine, thank you so much.

CONSTANTINE: My pleasure.

COATES: Well, Arizona's Civil War era abortion law bans nearly every abortion in the state, even in cases of rape or incest. I'll ask Democratic Senator Reverend Raphael Warnock what the Biden campaign is going to do about that. You know, he's here next.



COATES: Remember a few days ago when former President Trump was mum about whether he would endorse a national abortion ban? Well, now we've got his answer.


UNKNOWN (voice-over): Would you sign a national abortion ban if Congress sent it to your desk?



TRUMP: Well, what about the Arizona Civil War era abortion ruling? Does the former president think the state Supreme Court went too far? (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Yeah, they did. That'll be straightened out. And as you know, it's all about state's rights. It'll will be straightened out. And I'm sure that the governor and everybody else are going to bring it back within reason. And that will be taken care of right and very quickly.


COATES: This is in the mood for questions. What about whether doctors who perform abortions should face prosecution?


TRUMP: Those are the things that states are going to make determination about.


COATES: In the face of all of that, President Biden has a message for the people of Arizona.



JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Elect me. I'm in the 20th century -- 21st century, not back then.


COATES: Well, joining me now to discuss this and much more, a Democratic senator from Georgia, Reverend Raphael Warnock. Senator, thank you so much for joining me today. It's good to see you.

SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK (D-GA): My pleasure. Good to be here with you.

COATES: You know, let's start here because Trump was saying today that he would not sign a national abortion ban. What's your reaction, and do you believe him?

WARNOCK: Well, my reaction is that when we look at what just happened in Arizona, Donald Trump set all of this in motion. Uh, he is the one, and he wanted to make sure we gave him credit for it, who appointed these judges to the Supreme Court. They overturned a constitutional right that women enjoyed for nearly half a century. And he said no -- no one was able to do it, he got it done, and I think we ought to give him credit for doing that come November.

COATES: Well, there's credit, and then there's responsibility for it, right? It is the intimation. Let me ask you, though, what did you make about the fact that he didn't want to address the punishment of doctors?

WARNOCK: Look, I think that here's a man who has been all over the place on this issue. If there's anything Donald Trump is guilty of, it's certainly not having a moral compass. And you could hear the craven way in which he approached all of this from the beginning. You know, when he said this is about getting elected, you got to get elected. And so, he's all over the place. I don't think he has an answer to all of this.

But, you know, I'm really focused on the women --


WARNOCK: -- and the families who are at the center of all of this. Um, you know, this is bigger than the culture wars. This is about people's actual lives. This is about women in many cases who want to have children and have found themselves in terrible medical situations. And the hands of their doctors are literally tied. They don't know what to do with fear of prosecution. This is not a joke. This is serious business and it reminds us that elections matter, and we've got to do everything we can to get women their power back.

COATES: He seems to suggest that this is the will of the people, to return issues to states. I wonder if you have concerns as a senator about the insecurity that women and others are facing when it's a state by state issue. It's a locality by locality in some areas. How does that feel in terms of not having consistency for people to feel as though they know what to expect and can plan their families accordingly?

WARNOCK: Well, I can tell you, as the pastor of Ebenezer Baptist Church, where Martin Luther King Jr. served, I always get nervous when people like Donald Trump start talking about states' rights. Those were the very arguments that were made in opposition to what Dr. King and others were doing. States' rights arguments were no friend of civil rights, no friend of voting rights, and we're seeing it play out again with respect to reproductive rights.

If we had listened to the so-called states' rights governors during the civil rights era, we would have been back to a pre-Civil War era in terms of Black people's rights. And we saw it yesterday, where they literally used a 160-year-old law to say to women, you don't get to decide your future, you don't get to decide the future of your families, you don't get to make decisions regarding your own body, a law that's older than the state of Arizona itself.

And, you know, I have to tell you that it's interesting to me that we would pretend that we don't know any more in 2024, medically and biologically, than we knew in the 1800s. I mean, if we're going to go that far, why not use leeches? I mean, this -- you know, to deal with bodily and medical concerns, this is -- this is an era prior to the advent of modern medical science as we know it.

And so, as we watch all of this chaos unfold, as it spills over out of the chaos party, we're reminded that elections really do matter, and we've got to do everything we can to use our power to give women their voices back. Joe Biden has said that if he is reelected and if we hold a Senate, flip the House, send him a bill, that he will codify Roe v. Wade. I continue to believe that a patient's room is too narrow and cramped a space for a woman, her doctor, and the United States government. I think that's just too many people in the room.


For me, the issue is who gets to decide. And again, we, as I listen to these young women and women who are literally bleeding out in the parking lot and with their doctor's hands tied, this has real world consequences for people.

COATES: This issue is ripe for debate, is it not? I mean, you think about issues of states' rights or one nominee saying what they will do versus the other. You know, the electorate likes to hear from both candidates, from Trump, from Biden. There is not yet a solid debate that has been set. Should there be a debate between these two candidates?

WARNOCK: Oh, I think one of the great characteristics of a democracy is that you get to see contrast. That's what elections are about. They are about a choice. And I think that you will -- you know, look, I'm not in the Biden campaign, I'm not a member of the campaign, but I think you'll hear -- you will hear a debate. I certainly would like to hear one because, quite frankly, the more Donald Trump talks, I think the better off we are, that is politically.

COATES: You know, I call you senator, as you should be. I also consider you reverend, as you should be as well. I know this is a deeply personal issue and deeply personal in terms of how you are guided by your own life. I can't help but wonder what you have made of the decision of the former president to market the Bible --


-- to he wants to now say that November 5th Election Day will become Christian Visibility Day. What do you make of the way that religion is being used --


-- in this campaign?

WARNOCK: Well, you know, the scripture talks about that, too. You know, the folks who cry Lord, Lord, but their hearts are far away from the God that they -- that they proclaim. Listen, I -- I watched the former president put forward the Trump Bible. I don't know what a Trump Bible is. It strikes me as a kind of oxymoron in the worst way.

I will tell you this. The Bible does not need Donald Trump's endorsement. And it's not surprising to see him engage in this kind of behavior. This is the man who's always trying to sell us something. If he's if he's not trying to sell us steaks, he's trying to sell us ugly sneakers, in my opinion. If he's not trying to sell us sneakers, he's trying to -- now he's trying to sell us the scripture. And in a real sense, he's trying to sell us a bill of goods. I don't think the American people are going to fall for it this time. COATES: What do you make of the fact that he is trying to call November 5th Election Day a Christian Visibility Day? What do you think that is about?

WARNOCK: I don't -- I don't know. You'd have you'd have to ask him. But --

COATES: Does that trouble you?

WARNOCK: I am deeply troubled by the weaponization of religion. I don't use my faith as a weapon. I use it as a bridge. And I think that we are in these intense cultural wars in our country where faith just becomes one more tool in the arsenal for some people. And I think that's quite unfortunate because for me, making my faith visible is about feeding the hungry.

It is about healing the sick, which is why I've fought so hard to expand Medicaid in Georgia, to get us to fully embrace the Affordable Care Act, because I preach every Sunday morning in honor of one who healed the sick. Even those with pre-existing conditions, that's what leprosy was, a pre-existing condition, never billed him for his services, who said that he came to preach good news to the poor and to set the captives free.

I like the words of St. Francis of Assisi who said, preach the gospel at all times, and when necessary, use words. And so, if -- if people want to make their faith visible, show up for your neighbor.

I'm a Matthew 25 Christian. I heard the words of Jesus when he said, I was hungry and you fed me, I was in prison and you visited me. And folks ask, well, when were you in prison? When were you sick? When you were hungry? Inasmuch as you've done it unto the least of these, the most marginalized members of the human family, you've done it also unto me.

That's how my faith shows up in the public square. And so, I'm not impressed by the size of -- of anybody's Bible. I'm impressed by the size of your heart.

COATES: Senator, you're so engaging. I'm loving our conversation. I'd be remiss if I did not ask you, though, about Georgia and the Fani Willis case because everyone was very intensely tuned in to what was going on in that courtroom in the disqualification hearing.


She is, of course, found to still be qualified under the judge to remain as the head prosecutor in that case. Do you have any pause about her ability to do so?

WARNOCK: You're the lawyer. I'm a preacher. I'm going to stay in my lane.


But seriously, look, I have seen partisan actors in my state try to put their hand on the scale on this case. I'm not going to pile on because for all of its challenges --

COATES: Uh-hmm.

WARNOCK: -- and flaws, every human system is flawed, I believe in our system of jurisprudence. I believe that nobody is above the law. That includes Donald Trump. And I think that he deserves a trial before a jury of his peers. And in this case, these are people of Fulton County that I'm proud to represent as a United States senator.

COATES: Well, Senator Raphael Warnock, thank you so much for joining me this evening.

WARNOCK: Great to be with you.

COATES: Thank you. Well, up next, a bizarre triple murder trial that's unfolding in Idaho. It involves a man with doomsday religious beliefs and zombies. We'll explain next.




UNKNOWN (voice-over): My mom has spent her whole life protecting us kids.

UNKNOWN: She was a good mom, was very important to me, and a good wife.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Honestly, Lori and Charles looked like they had the ideal marriage. But her beliefs had become a lot more extreme. After she met Chad Daybell, she changed.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Who the hell is Chad Daybell?


COATES: Well, we're about to answer that question because that was the trailer for the Netflix docuseries, "Sins of Our Mother." It chronicles one of the most bizarre cases I've ever come across. I mean, it involves sex, money, power, and murder.

But wait, there's even more. We've also got doomsday prepping, dark spirits, and zombies. Yes, I did say zombies. Frankly, it all sounds like complete and utter fiction, but sadly, it's all too real.

This is Chad Daybell. Opening statements in his triple murder trial started today in Boise, Idaho. He is charged with killing his first wife and two stepchildren. So how did we get here? Well, he met a woman named Lori Vallow at a religious conference back in 2018. Both Daybell and Vallow were married to different people at the time.

Now, here's where it starts to get really bizarre. Prosecutors say that Daybell became obsessed with Vallow. They allegedly had an affair and that Daybell's then wife along with Vallow's two children were -- quote, unquote -- "obstacles that stood in their way." The prosecution says that this is what happened next.


ROB WOOD, PROSECUTOR IN CHAD DAYBELL TRIAL: Two dead children buried in the defendant Chad Daybell's backyard in September of 2019. The next month, his wife is found dead in their marital bed. Seventeen days after the death of his wife, Tammy Daybell, this defendant is photographed laughing and dancing on a beach in Hawaii at his wedding to Lori Vallow.


COATES: Now, the state says those killings were no accident and that Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow justified the murders with extreme doomsday religious beliefs.


WOOD: Any who opposed them were labeled sometimes as dark spirits or even zombies. This narrative gave them the pretext to remove people from this world for their own good.


COATES: As for Daybell's defense, well, his attorney claims that he was manipulated by Vallow.


JOHN PRIOR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY IN CHAD DAYBELL TRIAL: Lori Vallow comes in the picture, Miss Texas. You'll hear testimony about this beautiful, vivacious woman, very sexual person and very manipulative. And she knows how to get what she wants. And she drew Chad Daybell into a relationship.


COATES: Now, to make it even more complicated, the defense is pointing the finger at Vallow's brother, who they say had a history of violence. Now, Lori Vallow was convicted last year of the murder of her children and of conspiring to kill Daybell's wife. She got life in prison without parole. Chad Daybell, well, he could face the death penalty if he is convicted.

Joining me now is Skye Borgman. She is the director of "Sins of Our Mother" and knows this case very well. Skye, thank you so much for joining. Just trying to wrap my mind around all the different ins and outs of these cases and the people who are involved is really just mind boggling and bizarre. And you've been following this case for a very long time. We have now finally come to the day of Chad Daybell's trial. Can you help me understand what were your biggest takeaways today from the opening statements?

SKYE BORGMAN, DIRECTOR, "SINS OF OUR MOTHER": Well, I think for a long time, we've been thinking, what is Chad's defense going to do? And I think it was answered today, that they're really looking at pinning the blame on Lori and her brother, Alex Cox, and really saying that Chad was taken in by this woman, was taken in by this woman and her brother, and it was -- it was the two of them that were really behind these -- these three horrible murders that happened.


And I think based on the opening statements today, that's -- that's definitely how it's going to play out.

COATES: I mean, Daybell was connected to a movement of religious doomsday preppers. And what exactly did he believe, Skye? How do prosecutors think that those beliefs are connected to the deaths of his former wife and also the Vallow children?

BORGMAN: So, from what I understand about his beliefs is that he and -- and eventually Lori would rate people on a scale of darkness to lightness. And if somebody was a dark spirit and they were high on the scale of darkness above, I think the number was something like 2.5, then they could never come back to being light, and that person then would become kind of not of this world anymore, and they needed to -- to rid this world of this person, of this dark, white person. If somebody was in the light scale, above a 2.5, that person would always be light. Chad and Lori were both very high on this darkness and lightness scale.

What's interesting about the scale that they went by is people changed all the time. We saw a number of different pieces of paper, slips of paper that just had these numbers sort of typed out on them. And sometimes people were dark and sometimes they were light. So, I don't know that there was any real method to figuring out who was dark or light. I think it was more sort of an emotional thing for both of them to kind of put these people on this dark and light list.

COATES: And were the Vallow children somehow assigned these numbers?

BORGMAN: Some on some lists, yes, and on some lists, no. So that's why I think it's a little bit hard to tell what the -- what the rationale was for -- for these lists and how these lists were created, but there were definitely times where both of them were on the list.

COATES: I mean, Skye, what is your sense of how Daybell's attorneys are going to construct his defense? He essentially is saying, it's not me, it's -- it's Lori, I was taken in, I was manipulated.

BORGMAN: I think it's their best hope, honestly. I -- it's very different from -- from what Lori's trial was like. I mean, she did not essentially sort of go after Chad. Her defense didn't go after Chad. And so, I think, really, they are looking at their best-case scenario and that if they can blame Lori and if they can blame her brother, Alex, for sort of seducing Chad into these behaviors, that they are the ones that brought this religion into his life, then I think that's -- that's their best shot.

COATES: You know, Alex Cox, you mentioned, who officials say shot and killed Lori's former husband, Charles, in 2019, he might factor into this as well? BORGMAN: Well, it's difficult with -- with Alex because Alex passed away in December of 2019. And funnily enough, when he passed away, it was the day after Tammy's body had been exhumed and they were looking at Tammy's body to find the cause of death. And then he passes away from blood clots in his lungs. And it wasn't ruled a mysterious death at the time, but when you sort of go back and in hindsight kind of look at it, it seems so bizarre.

The timing of it is -- is very strange. His wife at the time even said the night before that he died, he said, I think they're going to make me their fall guy. And I think that's honestly what Chad's defense is trying to do.

COATES: I mean, your Netflix miniseries, "Sins of Our Mother," I mean, it debuted on Netflix back in, I think, 2022. A lot has happened, obviously, since that, including, as you mentioned, Lori's conviction. I wonder, has your perspective, Skye, on this changed at all since making that documentary?

BORGMAN: It hasn't actually changed that much. We -- we have most of the information -- I mean, everything that is in the doc, we've sort of gotten throughout the course of making the documentary. I know, when I was sort of following Lori's trial, there were a few -- a few more instances of information about -- really more about the children and how their bodies had been found and how the remains were found that -- that we didn't know about. And Tammy's autopsy results weren't released at the time where we were making the film.

But for the most part, the information that came out in the trial and in the time leading up to the trial and after the trial is -- is we knew most of it. So, there were certainly revelations. But I feel like -- I feel like we've got a pretty good sense of how this ends (ph).

COATES: Well, I have been riveted by not only the documentary, but also now that this trial has begun. Skye Borgman, thank you so much.

BORGMAN: Thank you.

COATES: Well, up next, can he win one more green jacket? Tiger Woods is back out there in Augusta. But to win the Masters, have to master the pain.


TIGER WOODS, GOLFER: Some days, I just feel really good, and other days, not so much.




COATES: Well, if there's one thing America loves, it's a comeback story, right? And tomorrow down in Augusta, Georgia, well, we may just get to witness one. Enter Tiger Tiger Woods, as they say, looking to make the cut for his 24th straight Masters appearance. Now, you hear the saying, play through the pain in a whole lot of sports. Well, tomorrow, Tiger will be a walking manifestation of just that.


WOODS: I hurt every day.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): No.


WOODS: Yes. I ache -- no, I ache every day.


COATES: Now, indulge me in some math here. So, Augusta National Golf Course is 7,550 yards.


That's about 4.28 miles. Remember, there's no carts for the players. And if you make the cut, you are walking that four times. That's about 17 miles in four days.

Now, for Tiger, who has made it and had at least what, 12 surgeries by our count and is in constant pain? Well, he thinks he's got one more green jacket in him.


WOODS: If everything comes together, I think I can get one more.


COATES: Joining me now is Tiger Woods's former swing coach, Sean Foley. He coached Tiger for four years, from 2010 to 2014. Sean, thank you so much for joining us this evening. I mean, look, you know Tiger personally. What do you think is behind this -- this drive to compete? I mean, even, frankly, through the pain?

SEAN FOLEY, FORMER SWING COACH FOR TIGER WOODS: Yeah, I think, look, these are, you know, Tiger, Tom Brady, Wayne Gretzky, Messi, Jordan, LeBron, depending on whose side you're on. Look, these are ordinary men who do extraordinary things. And I think that there is -- there's ambition in society where people do something to attain something, and then there's just aspiration, which is to become the best version of yourself.

And I think for Tiger, you know, his father was massive influence on him. His dad was a Green Beret in Vietnam. So, Tiger had been raised quite structurally, and it was quite military in how he went about his processes and how he planned and how he adapted and got ready to prepare for tournaments.

So, the thing about golf is that it has so many different skills sets and, of course, one of them is power and youth and speed. But the wisdom and course management and short game, that's something that, with age, you continue to be good at.

So, the thing about Augusta is not only is it 17 miles, it's also built like on a -- on a semi-mountain. So, it's a very difficult walk as it relates to walking a golf course. It's quite hilly. And then a lot of the times, where the ball sits, you know, you'll be on an uneven line. So, that changes the mechanics of balance and how you create force. So, it is challenging if you're healthy, to be honest with you.

And golf is not obviously a sport like sprinting or other things, but the demands on the body is quite heavy. I just think that when he says he aches every day, that -- that's a casualty of success and the amount of repetitions, the amount of time that he has put into it. There's not a human body on the planet that could withstand that much torque and force and at 47 years old be healthy. So, I think, to him, it was worth it.


FOLEY: And I don't think you have it any other way.

COATES: Well, Sean, I mean, just to that point, I mean, his career has been riddled with injuries and -- and surgeries that have forced him to adapt and change his game. You've been his swing coach. You're describing what it was like -- what it was like to be on this Augusta course, among others. How difficult is this to have to change your swing time and time again, adapt to those injuries?

FOLEY: Well -- well, the good thing is, you know, a lot of his injuries have been to, you know, his knee, his lower back, and then obviously from the car accident, his right leg. So, the thing is, golf is played with your hands and arms. Of course, our legs are there to support us. So, basically, your legs create stability against the ground so you can create speed against it.

Just like Nolan Ryan in baseball had a great arm, Tiger Woods has great arms and great hands. So, as long as he has his hands and arms, I will never be surprised if his name is at the top of the leaderboard. The difference now is so many of the names at the top of the leaderboard are people that he inspired. They looked at what he did, and they did the same thing. So, you know, the competition he has now, he is almost responsible for it because he inspired all of them.

COATES: That's a beautiful sentiment as well. I mean, thinking about it, I mean, he's -- he's a legend, Sean. I mean, he won the Masters in '97. His first major golf went at just 21. I mean, since then, he has gotten four more green jackets, 15 major tournaments. He's got 82 PGA Tour wins, which ties for, by the way, for the record of the most wins in history.

But it's not just the wins. I mean, you talk about the inspiration. There's something about Tiger. What is it about him despite everything that has happened? Sean, what is it about him despite everything that's happened that had people rooting for him?

FOLEY: You know, I just think when we see people do things, whether it's Jesse Owens or whether it's Usain Bolt or Tiger Woods or Caitlin Clark, you know, when you see someone do something that special, there's just something within us.


And maybe there's no data or there's nothing we can measure to point to this, but I think what it does is it shows the connection that we have and to see pure greatness --


FOLEY: -- within our lifetime. It's that, it's an aura, but it comes from competency and it comes from sacrifice. And look, to be a GOAT is probably, you know, it's got its moments, but there's a lot of downsides to it. So, it's a big sacrifice to your personal life and to how you live as a human being. And to be able to, one, be friends with Tiger, and two, to be able to witness since I was 14 years of age, you know, this incredible --


FOLEY: -- this greatness and resolve has been special.

COATES: Well, Sean, do you think he's going to don that green jacket one more time in this weekend?

FOLEY: I mean -- I mean, at plus 10,000, I think you got to put a tenner in there. I mean, you just -- you just must.


Look, would I be surprised if he didn't? Of course not. Would I be surprised if he did? Of course not. I just -- I just don't think that -- you just can't look. You can't be surprised when he has every record in the book.

COATES: Sean Foley, of course, we can't. Thank you so much. Nice to talk to you.

FOLEY: Nice to be with you.

COATES: Thank you all for watching. Our coverage continues.