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Laura Coates Live

Biden Insists On Staying In The Race; Biden Campaign Tests Harris's Strength Versus Trump; Laura Coates Interviews David Sanger. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired July 11, 2024 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST: Just to be very clear, this was the 1960s.

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PHILLIP: And thank you for watching "NewsNight." "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.

LAURA COATES, CNN HOST: President Biden takes the test, but will it matter? Tonight on "Laura Coates Live."

All right, zero tolerance, no room for error, no mistakes. Decides in any which way you want. That seems to be the standard that Biden has to not only meet, but exceed every time he speaks. And even then, it might not be good enough. The question is whether tonight's high stakes press conference was good enough for him to live to fight another day. He certainly thinks that he will.

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JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I always have an inclination, whether I was playing sports or doing politics, just to keep going, not stop. I just got to just pace myself a little more. I'm determined on running. But I think it's important that I relay fears by seeing -- let them see me out there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: But how ever Biden performed tonight or how he does next week or the week after or, let's be honest, the day after, the hour after, it may not matter to those in his own party who have their minds made up that anything is maybe a day late and a dollar short.

Three more House Democrats came out right after the press conference to say that he should go, right after that press conference. Now, we're up to 17 in all. And even before the press conference, sources said more were ready to come out, but they were waiting for the NATO summit to end.

Now, last week, the president said only the Lord Almighty could convince him to step aside. Now, tonight, he offered a slightly different answer. When he was asked what he would do if he saw polling that shows Vice President Kamala Harris doing better against Trump, well, he said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: If your team came back and showed you data that she would fare better against former President Donald Trump, would you reconsider your decision to stay in the race?

BIDEN: No, unless they came back and said, there's no way you can win. Me. No one is saying that. No poll says that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Some people say that. Oh, I'll talk louder. Some people say that. Well, now the president did misspeak right out of the gate in his first answer. And by the way, I have misspoken. Then again, I'm not running for office. But therein lies the problem for this president because his critics now scrutinize everything he does, every slip up he makes, no matter whether the average person will do it or maybe the average candidate.

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BIDEN: Look, I wouldn't have picked Vice President Trump to be vice president if she was not qualified to be president.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Earlier you misspoke. In your opening answer, you referred to Vice President Harris as Vice President Trump. Right now, Donald Trump is using that to mock your age and your memory. How do you combat that criticism from tonight?

BIDEN: Listen to him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Listen to him talking about Trump. Okay, well, we can do that because the president does have a strong point. The former president, Donald Trump, he misses all kinds of names as well.

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DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: All of the evidence, everything, deleted and destroyed all of it. All of it because of lots of things, like Nikki Haley is in charge of security.

Victor Orban, did anyone ever hear of him? He's probably like one of the strongest leaders anywhere in the world. He is the leader of -- right, he's the leader of Turkey.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: No, he's actually the leader of Hungary. But gaffes aside, those are just a few of them. Where are the leaders of the Democratic Party right now? The ones who could have the talk with the president or the ones who could maybe say it is time to rally around him or vice versa?

Well, tonight CNN has learned that President Barack Obama and former Speaker Nancy Pelosi, they have talked in private about Biden. We're told they've expressed concerns about the path forward and neither is quite sure what to do. Not sure what to do, then what would you have voters do?

(COUGHING)

Besides cough on live television. Hold on.

[23:05:00]

(COUGHING)

Not today, Satan. Hold on.

(COUGHING)

Excuse me. Now see, if I were running for president right now and this happened to my voice, would you say that I was no longer qualified? If this were happening and I was a candidate --

(COUGHING)

-- for office, would I be completely inept? Would you judge me differently than every other anchor who may have sneezed on air or cleared their throat differently? Would you look at it as a one-off or episodic in some way? Would you say to yourselves, this, my friends, is the very reason this person can no longer be trusted or would you say that maybe you'll have to wait and see how her voice performs for the rest of the show?

Now, I didn't use that example willingly to make sure that you got the point and drove it home. My voice did, in fact, give out. But that's sometimes what happens. But again, as I mentioned earlier, I'm not the one running for president and you don't have the same standard for me. But I'll tell you, there are people who have followed this very closely. People who have watched a number of gaffes. People who have watched a number of coughs and sneezes and vocal clearings and everything else and mispronunciations of names.

And joining me now is White House reporter for "The Wall Street Journal," Annie Linskey, former Democratic congressman Joe Crowley, and pollster Frank Luntz. Glad you're all here with me right now. Anyone want a cough drop?

(LAUGHTER)

No? We're good? Okay. Annie, let me begin with you here because the number of lawmakers that are now calling on Biden to step aside is actually growing tonight.

ANNIE LINSKEY, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: That's right.

COATES: Now, the number is not 9 or 10. It's now 17.

LINSKEY: Yeah.

COATES: That's significant. But there are 213 Democrats in Congress right now on the House side. So, how should Biden view this and what do the next 48 hours look like?

LINSKEY: Well, my reporting is that the next 48 hours are incredibly important for the president. The way the president's team is seeing this time period is a time which, you know, they have to be able to withstand the pressure for the next 48 hours because after that, in their view, the attention and the focus of the political world and really the world moves to the RNC and the convention.

And they feel that if they can withstand the pressure that they've had, you know, if they can just hold on for 48 more hours, then they're going to have some relief. They're also looking at a calendar where, you know, if there's going to be sort of a change of some kind, it has to be done sooner rather than later. But they're looking at these 48 hours importantly.

And, you know, the president is going to be in Rehoboth Beach over the weekend. I was with him last weekend in the pool, traveling with him on Air Force One to his various stops around the country, and he was out and about. But this weekend, he's not. He's going to be down this weekend in Rehoboth. And I think it's a time that he typically spends with his family. I'm going to be there as well. But this is going to be a time that I think there's going to be a lot of reflection or that's the sense that we are getting from people who are close to the president.

COATES: I mean, Joe, he has said he is staying in this race. He has been emphatic about it. He has been defiant about it. Tonight, he was a little bit different about it, but still nonetheless saying that he intends to stay in this race. People are not taking that for at face value. And there's also this moment that he said that he would only reconsider his decision if they told him that he could not win.

Listen to -- I mean, when you think about how he has said this and not winning, you can find the polls that would suggest there is reason to be pessimistic. But what is the ultimate test for him? What would be the moment he would say, aha or I've heard enough?

JOE CROWLEY, FORMER NEW YORK REPRESENTATIVE: Well, I think the fact that only 17 people so far, members of Congress, have come out and said that he should step aside for someone else. And I think one of the things why that's the case, some of the polling that came out recently that showed they're still virtually tied in many respects. And I think what that really says, we all know that there are people who are die-hard Trumpites, die-hard Bidenites, et cetera, but I also think it is because it's about character.

COATES: Hmm.

CROWLEY: One person has it. The other one is a character. And they're really completely different in that regard. And that's why I think it's so close. I think it gave pause to some of these members to say, you know, he had a pretty good night tonight, it wasn't as -- you know, he had a couple of flops, but he did really well, especially on control of the issue of foreign affairs and some very complex issues.

So, in terms of what he has, I think he has to continue to do this. I think it has put a lot of pressure on him because before the debate, I don't think he saw every day, every word he was going to say was going to be under a microscope, but it will be now.

COATES: I mean, that's -- that's the sort of the rub of being a candidate, right? And being somebody who is known as the leader of what we call the free world. And I want you, Frank, to listen to for a second what a group of pro-Biden supporters, who were speaking tonight in the battleground state of Michigan, a state that people talked about as the uncommitted vote, what are you going to do about it, and this is what they told CNN's Gary Tuchman about the president's news conference. Listen.

[23:10:10]

UNKNOWN: Relieved. I think he should stay in.

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So, your opinion has changed?

UNKNOWN: Uh --

TUCHMAN: -- from not sure to he should stay in?

UNKNOWN: Yes. Uh-hmm.

TUCHMAN: Okay. And how about you? How do you feel? You weren't sure. How do you feel now?

UNKNOWN: Same. I think he's the logical choice.

TUCHMAN: Okay. Now, you thought he should pass the torch. How do you feel right now?

UNKNOWN: I still believe he should pass the torch.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Now, we can often talk about what happens inside the Beltway and then what happens outside the Beltway. You and I have talked about a kind of a tale of two parts of the country. How do you see this?

FRANK LUNTZ, POLLSTER: Well, there are two Joe Bidens. And we saw tonight the Joe Biden that was reading off the teleprompter and delivered a very powerful speech. We saw that today after the debate, when he was the Joe Biden of 10, 15 years ago.

But then when he has to do it off the cuff, it's a completely different experience. And yes, candidates make mistakes. And by the way, you covered for your situation really well. I've seen it happen before. You mastered it. He doesn't do it as well. And I don't think that our expectations are too high. I do think that both candidates are flawed. And, in fact, my only conclusion here is to make everybody angry, which is he was good enough to survive for another day, but not good enough to put this behind him.

I think you're right about this weekend. I think Monday is going to be the key day, both in terms of his interview that night and in terms of having spent two days with his family, truly assessing where things are. There are going to be a few more Democrats in the next 24 hours. They're going to be frustrated with him.

And you can't say that referring to the vice president as Donald Trump. That's really major, significant. I watched with a group of students and everybody reacted to it. It is a big deal.

COATES: Well, talking about Monday, I mean, Monday puts you that much closer to the DNC, puts you that much closer to a presidential election. And by the way, it's the first day of the RNC convention. And if you're trying to distance yourself and change the narrative to talk and focus on what's going on there, including a vice presidential running mate, Annie, that would put that Lester Holt interview smack dab in the middle of the conversation.

So, it's a little bit head scratching, about the timing, and that's why I was curious about your reporting on Biden's aides that are restricting his public appearances or that there's choreography behind his preparation. What is that telling you?

LINSKEY: Yeah, I mean, one of the things that has become clear in the last few weeks and since the debate is that the Joe Biden that we saw in the debate is one that many, many people have seen behind closed doors. And at "The Wall Street Journal," we reported on that in June. We reported on it in early June, weeks before the debate, in a story that took us months to put together.

And since that story was published -- and in that piece, we interviewed people who spent time with the president behind closed doors in unscripted meetings, and the picture that came from that was that his performance was very uneven. He would lose his train of thought. It would -- he would pause for long periods of time. He would say the wrong word. He had struggles with the details of policies. But at other times, he was fine and he was completely on it and was completely with it.

And, you know, since we wrote that and since the debate, we've just had more and more stories come -- more and more people come forward saying very, very similar things.

And so, I think that led us to look at, like, how is it that so many people were surprised by this debate and how was it that this was such a surprise to so many people? And part of it is this very stage- managed presidency. Now, of course, every presidency is -- every president is in a bubble, but this bubble is just much thicker than other presidents.

COATES: Well, I was going to say, I mean, I think most American voters would assume, I mean, that there is going to be distance and there is going to be a sort of do not touch aspect of a presidential candidate, let alone actual incumbent. But you hear about a former president. Former President Barack Obama and former Speaker Nancy Pelosi, probably huddling together in some fashion to figure out what is the best path forward. And Congressman Jim Hines was warning that democracy may not avert a second Trump presidency.

You served in House leadership. What do you make of these conversations that are happening and not in front of the camera?

CROWLEY: Well, it's natural, when I think they're confronted, as they perceived to be, by the performance of the president two weeks ago and the fallout ever since. So, the -- especially from the people of the hustings. The people out there on the frontline districts, you know, they're the most vulnerable Democrats. And they're talking to the leadership. It's the job of leadership to listen to these folks, gather that information. They're looking at the polling. They're looking at DCCC polling, looking at DSCC polling.

[23:15:01]

They're begging the White House to give them more information. And they're looking at the media and the polling that they're doing as well. They're gathering all that. I think Hakeem Jeffries is doing that. I think Chuck Schumer is doing it. I think Nancy is doing it, obviously, too.

And, look, both Barack Obama and Nancy Pelosi, they are two stalwart leaders of the party right now. Even though they don't hold the titles any more than they once had, they are still behemoths when it comes to their ability to persuade.

LUNTZ: The key is the future, and this is something that was not addressed by either candidate during the debates. The public doesn't want to know what happened over the last four years. They want to know what you're going to do over the next four.

And every time they keep focusing on the future for Biden, they're wondering if this is how he is today, how is he going to be two months from now at the next debate? How is he going to be four months from now at the election or even four years from now? And neither candidate is spending as much time as they should be.

And I'd be critical, if I was a Democrat, I'd be critical of how Biden has been handled. You should have gone out the day after and engaged people live, not through a teleprompter.

COATES: He was in North Carolina, in that rally you're talking about.

LUNTZ: Yes, but it wasn't the true give and take. He never put himself in jeopardy. He waited 15 days. And you can't do that. You can't -- if he needs that much protection, then he's not going to make it.

CROWLEY: That's a fair observation.

COATES: Well, we'd say a plain devil's advocate. There were mistakes made by the former President Donald Trump at that debate, and we didn't see him for like 10 days or more.

LUNTZ: Which is smart. In his case --

CROWLEY: They weren't mistakes, they were lies.

COATES: Okay.

CROWLEY: That's different.

LUNTZ: In his case --

COATES: Let's not argue.

LUNTZ: The less he speaks, the better he does. And I realize that his people are going to hate hearing that. For Joe Biden, you have to come out and be heard. For Donald Trump, be silent.

LINSKEY: Yeah.

COATES: Well, Lin Manuel Miranda said that Aaron Burr said, smile more, talk less. Thanks, everyone, so much.

Let's continue this conversation right now with former Democratic governor of New York, David Paterson. He is skeptical that President Biden will, in fact, be the victor come this November. Governor Paterson, thank you so much for joining me this evening. I wonder, governor, did President Biden dispel any of your concerns or doubts about his political viability in November?

DAVID PATERSON, FORMER NEW YORK GOVERNOR: Well, I think that he demonstrated a lot of contrition this evening, even referring to some of his gaffes in the debate as stupid mistakes. And I think that -- that sacrifice that he made ignited a passion, I think, for him from the audience. You wound up rooting for him because he was really trying to be honest about himself.

But the real interesting aspect of this is it has been two weeks and an hour since the debate ended, and yet Donald Trump was leading in the polls by one percentage point at that time. He's now leading by two percentage points. So that tells me that most Democrats are so afraid of what President Trump would do to the country that they would probably rather vote for Joe Biden in any form rather than risk the consequences.

COATES: Well, that in some ways echoes a sentiment of George Clooney's op-ed yesterday about this thought that -- he's saying that leadership should stop telling 50 million people they did not see what they saw. And yet he has been out almost 20 times now without similar moments of concern as the debate raised. Now, different ones have happened.

But, governor, you know firsthand what it's like to face public and private calls from your own party to step aside, and you chose to end your own reelection campaign because of the distraction it potentially posed for your administration. What are the lessons that you think President Joe Biden ought to take from your political experience? PATERSON: I think that you have to put, in my case it was the state, in his case it's the country, ahead of your own thoughts. And it was disappointing to see that when he was on "Morning Joe" three days ago, when they said that they were powerful House Democrats and Senate Democrats who were worried about his ability to win, he said he didn't care what they thought. That's when I realized that he had over- personalized the situation, in other words, that it was getting to him.

And the worst thing also is that the people who are supporting him, the people, his inner circle, are just making one mistake after the other between whether or not he saw a doctor, whether or not he got any rest, how he had jet lag even though the last time he'd been on a plane was 11 days before. And then the worst one of all, he had a bad night. I've heard that so much I don't even know what that means.

Hundred and fifty years ago, General Custer had a bad night. Now, that's a bad night, but I just don't think that President Biden is really focusing on what the best end would be to this for the country.

[23:20:00]

If he believes that Trump is so dangerous, he's got to reconsider what he's -- what he's doing right now.

COATES: So, do you think that reconsideration should result in him stepping aside?

PATERSON: Well, once again, even when he talks about stepping aside, he says only the almighty God could make him step aside. I didn't know that he was so much better than the rest of us. And these are the kind of statements that you don't -- that it demonstrates that the person is not actually in touch with himself. It makes it harder for them to be honest with other people. That's why I really was pleasantly surprised that he was hard on himself in his remarks tonight and answering the questions to the media.

COATES: Former Governor David Patterson, thank you so much for joining me this evening. It's interesting to think a man like President Biden who has said, judge me not by against the almighty, but by the alternative, your take is really, really quite astute. Thank you so much.

PATERSON: Thank you.

COATES: President Biden insisting that he won't exit the race. And we've heard this a number of times. And he has said it. But reporting tonight says a group of Biden aides have come up with a plan to convince him to drop out. Can he be persuaded? A Biden biographer joins me next.

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[23:25:12]

COATES: So, what is motivating President Biden to stay in the race besides all the delegates? Well, he was asked that very question tonight. Listen to his response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY CORDES, CBS NEWS CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Have you spent time thinking about what it would mean for your legacy, which you've worked decades to build, if you stay in the race, despite the concerns that voters say they have, and you lose to someone who you yourself have argued is unfit to return to the Oval Office?

BIDEN: Look, I'm not in this for my legacy. I'm in this to complete the job I started.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Well, now, I want to bring in someone who knows about Biden's legacy more than most. Chris Whipple, the author of the Biden biography, "The Fight of His Life." What a prescient statement that is, Chris, these days. Let me bring you --

CHRIS WHIPPLE, AUTHOR: I had no idea.

COATES: You had no idea how prescient that title was going to be, right? But listen --

WHIPPLE: And by the way, happy birthday.

COATES: Thank you so much. I appreciate that. Someone didn't wish me well, but I thought through. Listen, the ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee was on CNN tonight. And, you know, he was explaining why he thinks Biden should step aside. And one of the reasons he gave was legacy. He says that Biden is now gambling with his by staying in the race. What do you think about that?

WHIPPLE: Well, look, I think it should be no surprise to anyone that Joe Biden wants to run for a second term. I mean, who -- the last time a president walked away from a second term voluntarily was Lyndon Johnson in 1968. And Joe Biden has, like every other president, reserves of ego and ambition and desire to do good things as well.

But there's one other thing that drives Joe Biden, and that is the thing that shocked him more than anything else as president was the lasting power of Trumpism. He thought it would be in the rearview mirror by now.

COATES: Hmm.

WHIPPLE: And I think he genuinely believes that he's the guy to beat Trump.

COATES: You know, there is some reporting tonight and CNN is reporting that former President Obama and congresswoman, former Speaker Nancy Pelosi are huddling about Biden's chances at reelection. And they're concerned about those chances. And that's after "Politico" reported that former President Obama didn't object to George Clooney publishing his op-ed when he calls on Biden to step down. Do you think these two leaders are souring on Biden's campaign or they're assessing the continued reaction?

WHIPPLE: Well, I think they're probably the latter. I think they're assessing things. You know, 24 hours ago, Laura, I would have said when Nancy Pelosi said on -- on "Morning Joe" that the president needs to decide what he wants to do --

COATES: Uh-hmm.

WHIPPLE: -- I thought she had opened the door to a possible intervention that would have been maybe a long shot. It would -- it would have required her and Hakeem Jeffries and inner -- the Biden's inner circle and even some of his family. And, by the way, I've been told that two family members are a little bit wobbly about Joe running again and don't want him to be --

COATES: Which ones?

WHIPPLE: -- and don't want him to be hurt.

COATES: Which ones? Do you know?

WHIPPLE: I can't say.

COATES: Oh, now, that's a cliffhanger.

WHIPPLE: But in any case, I think that tonight, Joe Biden closed the door on that intervention. I think that he was -- he was in command. He was fluent on the issues. He was coherent. He did what he had to do, I think, in barring some catastrophic repeat of that debate performance which, obviously, could happen. He'll be the nominee.

COATES: You know, Jon Lovett, the pod "Save America" host and former Obama staffer, says that there are -- there are two Bidens, the hero and the fool. And he writes, "It's hard to deny that in the two weeks since the debate, it's the arrogant and small Joe Biden we've seen most -- hanging on, bragging, defensive, angry, weak. Who else but him? He wonders aloud. Only God could change his mind, he tells us."

Now, of course, this is somebody who is a staffer and that was a Biden -- excuse me, Obama-Biden administration. How have you seen this? Have you seen this side of Biden? Does this version that they're describing exist?

WHIPPLE: Oh, it's absolutely true. You know, Joe Biden carries a chip on his shoulder. He has always felt that he was the guy from Syracuse law and all the Yale and Harvard guys looked down on him.

You know, when he first came to Washington, he was summoned to -- to see Averell Harriman, of all people, who was the -- the railroad tycoon and ambassador to the Soviet Union for FDR. And Harriman, who was a Yaley, grilled Biden. He never got over it. He still talks about it. He says, who is that railroad guy, that rich guy?

[23:30:00]

He's still -- he's still angry about it. So, Joe Biden carries grudges. There's no question about it. And -- and frankly, you know, although he and Obama certainly had a bromance, they're also very competitive. So, it makes this whole -- you know, the reports that Barack Obama was talking about finding an exit for Joe, a pretty fraught subject.

COATES: It would be interesting. Their legacies are intertwined, having served together in the same administration. And now, of course, won, the president of United States. But, you know, on that legacy question, I want to check this out from NBC's Chuck Todd. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHUCK TODD, NBC NEWS CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): Everything that I've learned, it has made me want to rethink a lot of the Biden biography. I still can't believe he ran for president in the first place given that his family was in crisis in 2018. I think the entire narrative on Joe Biden is going to change and that he was, he has always been, everything has been about his ambition and his ambition comes first.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Well, tunes are certainly changing right now. And you've written the book on Biden. What do you make of what Todd has said?

WHIPPLE: Yeah, no, I think that's harsh. I really do. I think that -- no question about it, that Joe is, you know, he spent his whole life wanting to be president. He has thought about he either run for president or thought about it every four years. But his family has been all in every step of the way. And certainly, Beau was. Certainly, Hunter was and is. And -- and Jill Biden is, of course, all in on this race as well. So, I think that's harsh.

COATES: I think it's intriguing that people are judging and criticizing the ego and ambition of a politician. When? Well, pot, meat, kettle. Chris Whipple, thank you so much.

WHIPPLE: My pleasure.

COATES: Next, the spotlight turns to Vice President Kamala Harris. Would she fare better against Trump than Biden? Well, new reporting suggests the Biden camp is trying to find out the answer to that very question. But first, how do everyday voters feel about Biden's news conference tonight? It turns out the verdict is mixed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: I saw you and your friend react when he said, for example, Vice President Trump.

UNKNOWN: It happens. Okay? He's 81.

UNKNOWN: I think he conveyed more defensiveness versus confidence, and I think we are really craving to be able to be confident about the candidate that we carry into the November election.

UNKNOWN: You don't think he should drop out?

UNKNOWN: No, he shouldn't drop out. Keep pushing. Too late. Are we in July going to August trying to switch to a new candidate? I think it would be -- I think it would be foolish.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:37:17]

COATES: Tonight, President Biden trying to put to bed concerns about his candidacy, including touting the full ticket with Vice President Kamala Harris.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: I thought she was qualified to be president from the very beginning. I made no bones about that. She is qualified to be president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Well, some critics have hinted that Biden isn't dropping out because he thinks that Harris isn't ready. It's not what he said, of course. And as you heard, Biden says that that is not the case. And tonight, "The New York Times" is reporting that the Biden campaign is testing Harris against Donald Trump should Biden decide to bow out of the race. And that's a big if.

Now, it comes on this very same day. A new poll shows Harris holds a slight lead over Trump in a hypothetical matchup. But the state of the race is essentially unchanged. And Biden insists that polls like that will not change his mind.

With me now, CNN national politics reporter Eva McKend, who is in Greensboro, North Carolina where Harris held a rally today. Also, here, CNN political analyst Ron Brownstein. Thanks to both of you. And by the way, he has been digging deeper into Harris and her effort to bolster her image in a brand-new piece out for "The Atlantic."

Eva, let me begin with you, my friend, because you attended Harris's rally today and other events that she has held, frankly, since the debate. And at times, the vice president has been criticized for not appearing authentic. How are voters reacting to her now during this very critical moment for the Biden campaign?

EVA MCKEND, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, Laura, she has spent the past week crisscrossing the country, really making the case to key parts of the democratic coalition. So, these, by and large, are audiences that are thrilled to see her. The Essence Festival in New Orleans, the Alpha -- Kappa Alpha convention in Dallas. She, of course, herself an AKA. Asian-American voters in Las Vegas, Nevada. And today, at a historic Black high school in Greensboro, North Carolina, they are very receptive. What struck me, though, is in my conversation with older Black voters, there is a real resistance to pushing Biden aside in this late hour of the game. They are very supportive of Harris, but they don't necessarily think it's the right strategy to push President Biden off of the ticket.

Younger Black voters have more of an appetite to see Harris ascend to the top of the ticket, but they also don't necessarily think that Biden should be forced out. They think that it's a decision that he should arrive at on his own.

Take a listen to what we're hearing from voters on the campaign trail.

[23:40:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DENNISA THOMAS, MISSOURI VOTER: She's supportive of him staying on the ticket, and I trust her judgment. So, if he needs to stay, he needs to stay. I think that people are more concerned about the aesthetic of what it means to be president. But Kamala Harris and Joe Biden have been working since they got into Congress. And I think we need to make sure that the people who are in office are the people who are doing the work.

LOVE LEMON, NORTH CAROLINA VOTER: I believe it would be a good thing to do. I think that Kamala Harris is more than ready for that work. And I believe in the power that she has to take this country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCKEND: So, that last woman that you heard from there, she is an entrepreneur in Winston-Salem here in North Carolina, and she said that she would be more excited to vote for Harris come November, but if Biden rides this controversy out and is still on the ticket in November, she would support him as well.

So, what you're seeing from Black voters is really a pragmatic approach and a pragmatic look at this contest. They recognize that they're voting for the democratic ticket and are not sort of caught up in this controversy over President Biden's fitness for office. They have an understanding that they are voting for a set of policies, whether they choose Biden or Harris or another Democrat.

COATES: Ron, let me bring you in here, because your new reporting, it focuses on efforts to boost the image of Harris by a liberal advocacy group called Way to Win. And this group wrote in a strategy memo, and I'm quoting here. "The reality is Kamala was tapped by Biden as his partner on the ticket and a new standard- bearer for the party, and her role as the VP on the current ticket is more critical than ever, so investing in her is a no-brainer."

So, how do they shape her image now? We're talking almost four years in and she was a senator before --

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yeah. COATES: -- that and she was an A.G. in California before that. How do you do that without igniting concerns about Biden's health and ability to remain on the top of the ticket?

BROWNSTEIN: Well, look, the predicate is that Harris is going to loom larger in the vote, whether or not Biden steps aside, even if he remains at the top of the ticket. There are obviously a lot of voters who are concerned about his ability to do this for four more years in a second term. And the prospect that she might have to step in at some point before 2028 is not theoretical to a lot of voters.

But I also think there are, you know, a -- I've talked to a broad range of Democratic strategists, donors and local officials over the last week or so, and there is growing interest, I think, in replacing him with her. It's not that people are, you know, obtuse to the obstacles she would face.

You know, I don't have to tell you, as a Black woman, you know, in American society, it may not be easy to get elected president. She has roots in San Francisco. She has vulnerabilities on the border.

But Harris offers the opportunity to shuffle the deck. You know, her -- one -- one Democratic consultant said to me, her floor may be lower than Biden's, but her ceiling may be higher than Biden's.

And I think that there -- there is a sense among many Democrats that if you could turn the page, you would have a nominee who is younger than Trump. Suddenly, he would look like the old guy who is losing a stamp, who has the potential at least to deal with the biggest problem Biden has from 20 to 24. The decline in his support among younger nonwhite voters, that is the biggest change we've seen since his standing in 2020.

And you could elect -- you could potentially have a ticket that has Harris and Gretchen Whitmer. That would be historic and potentially electrifying. Obviously, a gamble, but along that same line of potentially shaking up a race that now seems heading to a pretty solidly preordained result.

COATES: Well, you know, Ron, on that point, one of the common drumbeats I heard, particularly early in their tenure in the administration, I've interviewed her myself several months ago, people wanted to see a lot more of Vice President Kamala Harris.

BROWNSTEIN: Yeah.

COATES: Even before now, they were chanting MVP every time she would come into a room. They wanted to hear more from her. And now, the question was, why hadn't they? Was it a matter of strategy? Was it a matter of her being set aside?

But I want to go back to "The New York Times" reporting, that the White House is testing Harris's strength versus Trump. I know you talked about a different ticket. But what's that tell you about where things stand right now? That despite Biden saying he's in this race, unless he's convinced he can't beat Trump, there now -- they're talking about that unless part?

BROWNSTEIN: Yeah. Well, look, people aren't sure whether they're doing that because they want to show Harris is stronger, because they want to show Harris is weak. Polling -- you know, polling today had her doing better than Biden. There's other polling that had her doing worse than Biden. I don't think any of that polling means very much at this point until -- you know, Harris's position would look very different, maybe for better or worse, once she steps into the spotlight as an actual potential successor nominee.

[23:45:00]

You know, multiple Democrats I talked to use the phrase to say that she is essentially a cipher to voters at this point, that the negative attacks from Republicans haven't really stuck in the sense that voters are kind of, you know, don't have that, that isn't the first reaction they have to her name, but there really isn't anything positive associated with it either.

And, you know, when you look at her standing with the public, it very much tracks Biden's at this point, which suggests she doesn't have much of an independent identity.

And regardless of whether she is going to be a stand in or a potential successor, that reality that there isn't much on the blackboard at this point is what convinces groups like Way to Win that they have to fill in the picture before Republicans do because, you know, you're certainly going to have the argument next week at the Republican convention, like the ad that Donald Trump ran immediately after the debate, vote for Joe Biden today, get Kamala Harris tomorrow.

And regardless -- as I say, regardless of whether she's the top or the number two, Democrats have to bolster her to deal with that potential line of attack from Republicans.

COATES: Eva, Ron, thank you both so much. I'll be curious to see what voters think. Do they identify her as the vice president and remember her during these past couple of years or identify her as the real firebrand senator who would take control of those Senate judiciary hearing meetings?

Ahead -- thank you both so much for joining me today. Ahead, a complicated question to President Biden that was not related to calls for him to step down. Was it a test? Well, the person who asked it, David Sanger, joins me next.

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[23:50:38]

COATES: President Biden tonight peppered with questions about his candidacy. He was asked if he would be willing to take a cognitive test. He was asked what he thinks about Democrats calling for him to step down. He was asked if he's the most qualified to beat Trump. And you'd be forgiven if you thought he did not get a single question about policy. But he did, including a couple from CNN political and national security analyst David Sanger. Here's one of them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST (voice- over): I'm not sure you answered on whether you would be ready to go deal with Putin and Xi two or three years from now.

BIDEN: I'm ready to deal with them now and three years from now. Look, like I said, I'm dealing with Xi right now. I'm in direct contact with him. I have no good reason to talk to Putin right now. There's not much that he is prepared to do in terms of accommodating any change in his behavior. And -- but there isn't any world leader I'm not prepared to deal with.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: David Sanger joins me now. David, good to have you here. You know, before that exchange, you had asked Biden a pretty complicated foreign policy question about Russia's relationship with China. And I wondered and some people did wonder about the motivation compared to some of the other questions that were a little bit more elementary about his campaign. Were you trying to test his flow of information?

SANGER: Yes. Look, this is -- the question that I asked, which was just before the one that you showed on the clip, was this, that during his presidency, we have seen a remarkable thing happen, which is that China and Russia have begun to come together, act together in partnership, and just yesterday, pushed by his administration, NATO came out and condemned the Chinese for giving the technology to the Russians. It's rebuilding their military and enabling them to fight in Ukraine.

So, my question to him was, are you prepared to disrupt the Russia- China relationship? I didn't say whether they would disrupt it overtly, covertly. And it's a subject that is debated in the Biden White House every single day. It's one he has never talked about, but I knew he knew about it in great length. And I've written a lot on this topic.

And so, what I wanted to see was, I figured everybody will have asked by the time he got to me, if he got to me, are you leaving the ticket? Are you staying and all that? What I wanted to do was just watch him pace through a complex but daily, not obscure foreign policy problem involving our two biggest superpower rivals. And he wound around a bit but, you know, he did address it and hit all of the major points. I had to sort of step in and say, are you trying to disrupt it? And he said at one point, yes, but I'm not going to tell you how.

COATES: Were you satisfied to think that he was responding to you off the cuff with a basis of understanding from the briefings that you were aware that he'd be receiving?

SANGER: Yes. Yeah. I mean, I knew that he was discussing this topic with his aides, you know, very frequently. It's the biggest foreign policy problem in many ways that they face, the most complex and long lasting. And I just wanted to see how he dealt with it. The question that you showed, Laura, which was, are you prepared three years from now to sit down and see Putin the way he did in 2021, his one meeting, or with Xi Jinping, was an effort to get him -- this did not work as well to address whether he thinks he would be in good enough shape three years from now to go, you know, one to one with Vladimir Putin. He interpreted it somewhat differently and basically said, I'm dealing with Xi now, I'll always be ready to go deal with them --

COATES: Uh-hmm.

SANGER: -- but I'm refusing to talk to Putin. It was an interesting answer. I was just trying to get him away. Every time you ask him how he's going to be in the future, he tells you what he has done in the past.

COATES: Uh-hmm.

SANGER: And I was just trying to -- to see if I could get him to talk about the future.

COATES: Frankly, quite indicative of the pivot that many politicians do every single day --

SANGER: Yeah.

[23:55:01]

COATES: -- but obviously viewed differently these days. But there is a split screen that's happening while this was going on and while he has been dealing with NATO and the summit. You've got the split screen of Trump meeting with Victor Orban at Mar-a-Lago. And I'm wondering, what -- what is that meeting about and how are you seeing that split screen?

SANGER: So, Trump has a fascination with Orban. You know, Trump could be trying to meet in advance with the leaders of Germany or France or -- or the new leader of Britain. Instead, what he's doing is meeting with Europe's sort of sole remaining strongman, a member of the EU and -- and of NATO. But you're sort of wondering here why it is that Orban is -- is still in the midst of NATO, right? The answer is there's no way to expel him. But he's the only one who Trump really likes because he admires him for his authoritarian tactics.

COATES: David, really fascinating to think about how all this is unfolding, not only through your own mind, but those of the voters as well. David, thank you so much.

SANGER: Great to be with you.

COATES: And thank you all for watching. "The Source" is next.

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