Return to Transcripts main page
Laura Coates Live
Trump Hammers Harris On Inflation With Grocery Props; Biden, Harris Campaign Together For The First Time Since Biden Exited Campaign; Project 2025 Co-Author Caught On Hidden Camera; Five People Charged In Matthew Perry's Ketamine Death; Could Colin Kaepernick Return To The NFL? Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired August 15, 2024 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AUDIE CORNISH, CNN HOST AND CORRESPONDENT, PODCAST HOST: Two presidents and the vice president take their message to the people. But is it personal attacks that the voters want?
Plus, five people are charged over the death of Matthew Perry, including someone referred to as the Ketamine Queen. We are going to look at the rise and the dangers of the drug that killed him.
And is an NFL return for Colin Kaepernick in the works? His former coach says it is possible but it may not be in the position you would expect.
Welcome to "Laura Coates Live." I'm Audie Cornish, in for Laura tonight. And we're going to talk about this inflection point for the two presidential campaigns. Kamala Harris shares the stage with the person she replaced at the top of the democratic ticket.
GOP nominee Donald Trump breaks out the binders as he tries to talk policy while behind the scenes tries to shake up his campaign. His Republican allies have been all but begging him to ditch the insults and go after Harris on the issues. And at first glance, it looked like he may have gotten the message. There he was with his table full of grocery props and eggs and Cheerios. And forget a teleprompter, he had a binder and actually looked down to read it, pitching to voters his plan to double down on tariffs and eliminate taxes on Social Security benefits.
You know where it felt like vintage Trump was when he veered into false claims, exaggerations, and insult or two for good measure. Here's how he responded when CNN's Alayna Treene asked him about allies urging him to stop personally attacking Harris.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think I'm entitled to personal attacks. I don't have a lot of respect for her. I don't have a lot of respect for her intelligence. And I think she'll be a terrible president. I mean, she certainly attacks me personally. She actually called me weird. He's weird. It was just a soundbite. And she called J.D. and I weird.
What's the last name of Kamala? Nobody knew. It's Harris. Nobody knew the last name. I don't even use it because nobody knows who I'm talking about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: None of that surprised the Harris team. Even before Trump's remarks, her campaign put out a statement before he stepped on stage, preemptively slamming it as -- quote -- "another public meltdown."
Now, the vice president has her own tightrope to walk, appearing with President Biden for the first time since he dropped out of the race. And it's a crucial moment for her right before she delivers a speech outlining her own economic vision. And that's happening tomorrow. But this may have been a taste of how she plans to campaign with Biden and his record.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There's a lot of love in this room for our president.
(APPLAUSE)]
And I think it's for many, many reasons, including few leaders in our nation have done more on so many issues, including to expand access to affordable health care, than Joe Biden.
(APPLAUSE)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Folks, I have an incredible partner. The progress we've made, she's going to make one hell of a president.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: So, President Biden showed he doesn't have much to lose on the campaign trail anyway, freely taking a few digs at Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: The guy we're running against, what's his name?
(APPLAUSE)
Donald Dump or Donald -- whatever. Let me tell you what our Project 2025 is.
(APPLAUSE)
Beat the hell out of them.
(APPLAUSE) (END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Joining me now, senior political correspondent for "The Wall Street Journal," Molly Ball, former senior communications advisor to Senator Tim Scott's presidential campaign, Matt Gorman, and CNN contributor and "The New York Times" reporter and podcaster, Lulu Garcia-Navarro. Welcome to all of you.
Um, so, a binder that would make Mitt Romney proud, I think.
MATT GORMAN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, FORMER SENIOR COMMUNICATIONS ADVISOR TO SENATOR TIM SCOTT'S PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: Yeah. He has some crap for that, but yeah.
(LAUGHTER)
CORNISH: I know it's silly to poke fun of it but, you know, it is remarkable because he is a person who believes himself to be great off the cuff, right?
[23:05:04]
Can give these like long stemwinding speeches. And he made this crack this week about being asked to give intellectual speeches by his campaign. So, what did you think of that attempt today?
GORMAN: I mean, look, it's probably as good as you're going to get when it comes to kind of sticking to pure policy from Trump. I mean, that's just a fact. It was.
CORNISH: Did it feel like pure policy?
GORMAN: Well, the first eight to 10 minutes were pretty on the ball, and then he asked questions here and there, but that's probably as good as you're going to get if you're a Republican, whether it's Kevin McCarthy, Vivek Ramaswamy, Nikki Haley recently, who've been the ones really pushing a lot of this advice on Trump, if you will.
At the end of the day, he's 78 years old. He's not going to change, especially now, you know, with some of these changes in his campaign, especially folks from past campaigns who are more likely, I think, to probably enable that let Trump be Trump side of it.
CORNISH: Yeah. Lulu?
LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR, JOURNALIST FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES, PODCAST HOST: I was about to say that I think they should let Trump be Trump. I mean, the fact is that this is a man who is of a certain age and he is able to connect with people. We just saw a recent poll that saw him actually his favorability ratings going up to 42% in the Pew poll from 38%. People like Trump who like Trump. People who don't like Trump don't like Trump.
CORNISH: Right.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Trying to make him sit there and read a binder. It sounded like the worst sort of high school presentation that you could get. It wasn't the kind of Trump that people buy into. So, I think the advice is misplaced.
MOLLY BALL, SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: But you can't win an election with 42%. And so, in order to win the election, he has to, in some way, get the votes of people who don't like him.
And so, I think the purpose of this advice -- you know, I understand that Trump doesn't necessarily believe in, you know, the professional political advice, he always disregarded that in his career, he thinks he wins when he fights, but the reason for this strategic advice is that he can't win unless he gets some of the votes of people who don't already like him, some people beyond his base, and the thought is that the way he's most likely to get them, particularly considering how unpopular this administration and its policies are, is by making the case on the polls.
CORNISH: Molly, let me jump in, because I think it's interesting that you're making this point as the Trump camp expands with some new hires, bringing back some folks from 2016 like Corey Lewandowski, for example, who was like the original campaign manager. Can you just briefly talk about if that is a significant moment? People have also talked about Kellyanne Conway maybe coming back. What does -- is this a sign of panic? Is it just a perennial Trump firing and shakeup? Like, what are we looking at?
BALL: Well, I don't think we know yet exactly what else he might do in terms of shaking up the campaign, if this is a preliminary round or if this is all he plans to do. But Corey Lewandowski literally wrote a book called "Let Trump Be Trump," to Matt's point. So, this is definitely, you know, him going back to the type of advisers who are going to indulge his sort of basest instincts, if you will, and not try to rein him in, not try to get him to be more disciplined.
CORNISH: Especially since he thinks he's entitled to it. I think that doesn't help. You know, there was a moment where that stuck out to me, where he's like trying to attack the Democrats' clean energy policies. And in the process, it kind of goes in a very Trumpian direction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You got windmills all over the place and you have birds. You want to see a bird cemetery, just go under a windmill, you see thousands of birds dead. The bald eagle, if you kill an eagle, they put you in jail for years. And yet these windmills knock them out like nothing. And nothing happens to the people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
CORNISH: I don't know what to do with that, like, help me out on a policy perspective.
BALL: (INAUDIBLE) against electric vehicles. You've got to think Elon Musk is wondering what's happening.
(CROSSTALK)
CORNISH: We are talking about Elon Musk.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Elon Musk clearly didn't have the impact.
CORNISH: Can I jump in?
GORMAN: Yeah.
CORNISH: Is this actually a reflection of this tricky walk of being economic populist, right? Like that J.D. Vance was supposed to bring this kind of like ideology and policy together. But Trump has really never been the policy guy.
GORMAN: I think it's a couple things. Number one, the simplest explanation is he needs a crowd. He's better with a crowd that's reacting to his riffs and laughing. We were laughing right here talking about bird cemeteries. He needs a crowd to kind of play off. It's like when you hear a comedian in silence a little bit. I think that's number one.
Number two, I wouldn't go that deep on it. I think he needs a little bit of a crowd. And you're right, when he came on the scene in '16 or when he was kind of saber rattling a run in '12, he has certain themes. China and trade, especially, are ones that he really can care about. Taxes, where he gets in the weeds on. Some of these other things he'll know just enough to be dangerous and be fluent enough on it, but he won't want to go in the weeds.
CORNISH: Yeah, but it means he's vulnerable to the Harris-Walz campaign who can pluck out the lines like this or a thing about, you know, the Hannibal Lecter joke or something about sharks.
[23:10:05]
Like it makes you vulnerable in this scenario in a very edit-clippable internet election.
GORMAN: Vulnerable. What I would push back on is vulnerable how. I want to meet the person who's going to, who's thinking about Trump and not going to vote for him because of a Hannibal Lecter reference or a bird-cemetery reference.
CORNISH: Right.
GORMAN: I think it's a little deeper.
CORNISH: Okay. I want to turn to Harris because people have been saying, when are they going to roll out her economic vision? Will it look different from the Biden campaign? And we have heard some things, right? She's bringing up a federal ban on price gouging, a four-year plan to lower housing costs, first-time homebuyers would actually get a tax credit under a Harris proposal, and pushing for the construction of three million new homes. Is this as detailed as people wanted? Does this kind of answer the concern that she was not putting out enough?
BALL: I think it depends where you're coming from, right? I think from the point of view, I think, especially of a lot of economic experts, this is all kind of gimmicky and likely to be counterproductive, actually, like rather than bringing down inflation, things like price controls and homebuying incentives are only likely to push prices further up or make the problem worse.
On the other hand, she is offering details. She is offering actual plans, which for all the -- you know, the Trump campaign has been pushing this theme of, you know, where -- what is she actually offering, where are the specifics. He hasn't been giving a lot of detailed plans either.
CORNISH: Right.
BALL: So --
CORNISH: But it's different from saying like at least there's the Reduction Act or, you know, yeah.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: These are Biden's plans. I mean, these are very progressive plans. The idea of greedflation. This is the idea that what she's trying to propose here is that it was, you know, all these companies that were during the pandemic really driving up prices when there were all these problems and taking advantage of the consumer. That is a very common progressive idea that has been championed by a lot of people.
And so, these aren't new ideas that she's pushing out here. These are ideas that are pretty common on the left. Now, whether you agree with them or you're not, that's a subject of a lot of debates or actually economists who might agree with her. So, I don't know that it's exactly that. The problem that she has is the more specifics she gives, the more people can come out and say, no, we don't like it, no, it's wrong, you know.
CORNISH: Isn't that the point? I mean, just because it's a truncated campaign doesn't mean you're not going to be understood.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: No, I agree that she has to do it, but the bigger problem for her now is that she has been riding this wave, and I think we're about to see that wave crest and coming down to her.
GORMAN: Yeah.
BALL: I think you're exactly right, that as long as she doesn't give specifics, people can sort of see whatever they want in her.
GORMAN: Absolutely.
BALL: And her campaign can say, oh, she's going to pivot to the center. But when the rubber hits the road, we see that, actually, she's proposing these quite progressive ideas and she really is positioning herself on the left side of the party.
CORNISH: One more thing. I love talking policy, but it's hard to ignore the fact that everything is personal.
(LAUGHTER)
With this group of people, you had Trump kind of seeming a little bit upset about being called weird, like he keeps coming back to it. And in the meantime, you had President Biden come out and actually sort of take a crack at this, so to speak, using the term Donald Dump. We're long from the era of Michelle Obama's when they go low, but where are we?
(LAUGHTER)
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Dead silence. Dead silence.
GORMAN: If I -- yeah --
CORNISH: Is this a good trajectory?
BALL: This is modern politics, right?
GORMAN: It's even before that, right?
BALL: I mean, Biden also, when he did manage to string a sentence together in that debate, Biden spent whole time calling Trump a sucker and a loser. So --
GORMAN: Look --
BALL: -- it's not exactly new for him to be doing name-calling either.
GORMAN: And I remember when I worked for Mitt Romney, he was going to -- Mitt Romney is going to put people back in chains, according to Joe Biden, too. So, again, this predates, I think, the Trump era, too. I think history didn't start in 2015 --
(CROSSTALK)
BALL: Joe Biden started.
GORMAN: No, I'm saying in general.
(LAUGHTER)
GARCIA-NAVARRO: You can see Trump. It bothers him. I mean, you saw with him talking about the weird thing. It bugs him. And you know that when things bug the opponent, you're going to lean in.
CORNISH: I'm still shocked that there's not a real nickname for Kamala Harris. There's this constant talking point of butchering the pronunciation of her name. There is still a way of trying to take her name away from her. But does it say something that Trump's old playbook that he used on, like, his Republican challengers or whoever, like, he just doesn't have the juice for that here? GORMAN: I don't know. I don't think about it that in-depth. I'll be completely honest with you. But, look, I think it's one of those things where it's less about a nickname and more about a brand. I think Republicans need to figure out how we brand her. I think, as we saw from Joe Biden's research and books written about the 2020 campaign, the flip-flopper is probably the most productive one. But we'll see what they come up with.
CORNISH: All right. Stay with us because we're going to talk more. Thank you, everybody. Because President Biden is actually beginning a farewell tour of sorts, like, the crowds are chanting his name during his appearance with Kamala Harris.
[23:15:01]
So, we want to talk about what his role could be with her campaign going forward. We're going to do that with Joe Biden's biographer. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: And today, we take the next step. Thank you, Joe. Forward in our fight.
CROWD: Thank you, Joe! Thank you, Joe! Thank you, Joe!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Those cheers mark the start of the long goodbye from voters to President Biden. For the first time since dropping his bid for reelection, the president was side-by-side with Vice President Kamala Harris at a campaign rally. Harris hugged her boss, then Biden took the mic and spoke for some 20 minutes, doing exactly what he had been doing before his V.P. vaulted to the top of the ticket, vowing to do everything he could to beat Donald Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: You may have heard about the MAGA republican Project 2025 plan.
(BOOEING)
Let me tell you what our Project 2025 is.
(APPLAUSE)
Beat the hell out of them.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[23:20:00] CORNISH: So, we are watching in real time the burnishing of Biden's legacy, a 50-year political career with this chapter, at least, ending in a single-term presidency.
Here to discuss, biographer Chris Whipple. He's the author of a great book. It's called "The Fight of His Life: Inside Joe Biden's White House." Chris, that is an evergreen title.
CHRIS WHIPPLE, AUTHOR: Good to be with you.
CORNISH: Good to be with you.
WHIPPLE: I had no idea how apt it would be.
CORNISH: Yeah, yeah. You know, I was just talking about burnishing the legacy, and we'll get to that in a moment. Can I just get your reaction to what it was like seeing Biden out there being, as you called it, kind of the wingman to Kamala Harris?
WHIPPLE: Yeah, I thought they were really effective today. I mean, where was that Joe Biden three weeks ago? You know, they weren't -- it wasn't Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers, but they sure did not put a false foot forward. And so just think about what -- how -- how far Joe Biden has come in the last few weeks.
I mean, here's a guy who stepped away reluctantly from a second term as president or at least the possibility of it, practically at gunpoint, and here he is a short time later acting as the gracious wingman for Kamala Harris, cracking jokes like Rodney Dangerfield. I mean, they were pretty bad jokes, but the whole thing was, I thought, effective and charming, particularly in contrast to what somebody called the, you know, the tired Nickelodeon rerun of Donald Trump. So, I thought -- I thought that was a good performance today.
CORNISH: He's set to speak at the Democratic National Convention. We heard those chants of thank you, et cetera. Sources tell CNN that he's actually not planning to take part in any other events. So, what do you think the mindset is going into this week?
WHIPPLE: Well, his legacy really begins with his speech on Monday. I have little doubt that he will rise to the occasion. You know, I think that barring some really unexpectedly disruptive protest against Gaza, which could happen, I think this is nothing but upside for Joe Biden.
I think he goes in there and he -- first of all, he basks in the adoration of his party, which is something Lyndon Johnson never had, by the way, in 1968. He couldn't go anywhere near Chicago during the Vietnam War. And then he can -- he can celebrate his accomplishments, which are considerable, tee up Kamala Harris's presidency.
And I think he, you know, then has to basically underline the -- what he calls the existential threat that's on the ballot in 2024, represented by Donald Trump and autocracy. And if he can do all that with a sense of humor, without getting too dark, I think he wants to, you know, maintain this spirit of joy that --
CORNISH: Yeah.
WHIPPLE: -- Kamala Harris is running on.
CORNISH: And I don't want to undermine what you're saying here but there -- of course, there has been so much reporting about the rifts between him and, for instance, the former House Speaker, Nancy Pelosi. And fundamentally, he didn't leave because he wanted to, right? He left because he was being told he couldn't win. Are there still hurt feelings there? Is that something you're encountering as you're still doing reporting?
WHIPPLE: Well, look, undoubtedly, there's a really fraught dynamic going on between Biden and Pelosi. She has talked about it. She said that she prays that their friendship will somehow survive this. I think it will. He'll get over it. I don't think that's going to be a problem for Joe Biden in Chicago next week. Nancy Pelosi, I think, will not be the issue.
And I think that one thing is really clear. Joe Biden made this difficult decision on his own in the end. I mean, his inner circle was willing to go out and die on that hill with him. He made this courageous decision. And it's clear that he really has nothing but goodwill toward Kamala Harris. He doesn't blame her for anything.
CORNISH: Well, the situation may be unusual in terms of how she came to be at the top of the ticket. It's not unusual for a vice president who is running to be president to have to, like, bob and weave around the record, right? Like, how do you deal with the shadow of the guy next to you? How do you look at this compared to some of the kind of comparative experiences?
WHIPPLE: Well, it was disastrous for Hubert Humphrey, the Democratic nominee, in 1968 after a horrible Chicago convention when blood ran in the streets. I'm old enough to remember that. I was a kid watching it in shock. For Kamala Harris, I think it's a much easier proposition, which is not to say that it's simple. But I -- look --
[23:25:00]
CORNISH: I'm even thinking of an Al Gore, right? Or, like, it just feels like there are other kind of moments we can look back to and say, yeah, how do you -- how do you make this person an effective messenger?
WHIPLE: Well, I think she started to do that already. She certainly did on the subject of Gaza when right after Benjamin Netanyahu was here, she went out, not Joe Biden, but she went out in front of the cameras and she said quite forcefully, I will not be silent.
So, she has already started to strike out on her own in that respect, and I think she's also going to be talking a lot about bringing prices down, something Joe Biden was reluctant to acknowledge, the fact that, you know, prices are high. So, I think we're already starting to see that. I think -- I think she's going to be able to distance herself enough so that she will be her own person.
CORNISH: Chris Whipple, thank you so much for your insights. We appreciate your time.
WHIPPLE: My pleasure.
CORNISH: Now, Donald Trump has repeatedly tried to say that Project 2025 has nothing to do with him. But new secretly recorded video shows that one of its key authors was talking about preparing for a second Trump term. We have that footage, next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUSSELL VOUGHT, FORMER CABINET MEMBER, TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, PLATFORM POLICY DIRECTOR FOR THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE: I expect you to hear 10 more times from the rally, the president, you know, distancing himself from the left's boogeyman of Project 2025.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): Yeah.
VOUGHT: Um --
UNKNOWN (voice-over): And you're not worried about that?
VOUGHT: No, I'm not worried about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You have the radical left and you have the radical right. And they come up with this -- I don't know what the hell it is. It's Project 25. He's involved in Project. And then they read some of the things, and they are extreme. I mean, they're seriously extreme. But I don't know anything about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Donald Trump has always denied being part of Project 2025. But tonight, secret video captured on hidden camera shows a co-author of Project 2025 linking Trump to it. The new video obtained by CNN shows Russell Vought speaking about this controversial blueprint for a second Trump term and saying Trump's disavowal of it, well, that'll be just politics. CNN's Kyung Lah has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNKNOWN: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed by thy name.
KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): You are looking at secretly recorded video of Russell Vought, a former cabinet member in the Trump administration. VOUGHT: This year has been predominantly now getting ready for a year five of a Trump administration. We've got about 350 different documents that are regulations and things of that nature.
LAH (voice-over): Vought, the platform policy director for the Republican National Committee, says he is building the plan for Trump's second term.
TRUMP: I don't know what the hell it is. It's Project 25.
LAH (voice-over): Trump publicly disavowed Project 2025, a conservative blueprint for his administration if he gets reelected. But in private, Vought said that's just politics. The details of the real plans are secret and based on Trump's own beliefs.
VOUGHT: Notwithstanding, I expect you to hear 10 more times from the rally, the president, you know, distancing himself from the left's boogeyman of Project 2025.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): Yeah.
VOUGHT: Um --
UNKNOWN (voice-over): And you're not worried about that?
VOUGHT: No, I'm not worried about it. And so, I see what he's doing is just very, uh, conscious, uh, distancing himself from a brand. He's very supportive of what we do. And -- and -- and know that we have all manner of things that we do that's, you know, even unrelated to Project 2025.
UNKNOWN: Sure.
LAH (voice-over): Vought has been a mastermind behind expanding the powers of the presidency, some of those policy proposals Trump has supported, two sources tell CNN. Trump even hosted a Mar-a-Lago fundraiser two years ago for the group Vought founded, the right-wing Center for Renewing America.
VOUGHT: He's been at our organization. He's raised money for our organization. He's blessed it.
LAH (voice-over): In this hotel suite, Vought thinks he's talking to family members of a wealthy donor. But one is a journalist, the other an actor working undercover for the U.K.-based Center for Climate Reporting. The center provided the video to CNN on the condition we blur their faces so they can continue their undercover work. The conversation covers a host of issues like abortion and how his position differs from Trump.
VOUGHT: He talks about rape, incest and life of the mother. All, I actually don't believe in those exceptions. I want to get to abolition. But I also -- we got to win elections. And so, I want to get as far as we possibly can.
LAH (voice-over): His view of who should be an American. VOUGHT: So, I want to make sure that we can say, "We're a Christian nation." And my viewpoint is mostly that I would probably be Christian nation-ism.
UNKNOWN: Hmm.
VOUGHT: That's pretty close to Christian nationalism. Can we -- if we're going to have legal immigration, can we get people that actually believe in Christianity? Is that something? Or do we have to have, you know, are we not allowed to have, ask questions about Sharia law?
UNKNOWN: What could we see America looking like, I guess, in an ideal world?
VOUGHT: In an ideal world, I mean, I think we could save the country in a sense of, you know, the largest deportation in history.
LAH (voice-over): And even pornography.
VOUGHT: We'd have a national ban on pornography if we could, right?
LAH (voice-over): But the most striking of Vought's statements has to do with presidential power.
VOUGHT: George Floyd obviously was not about race. It was about destabilizing the Trump administration.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): Right.
VOUGHT: It's the left's belief that structures in society are the problem. Pulling society down for purposes of revolution is exactly what they want.
[23:35:01]
And what you're seeing at college campuses is a part of that as well. The president has, you know, the ability both along the border, uh, and elsewhere to maintain law and order with the military.
LAH (voice-over): A major part of Vought's plan is turning thousands of career federal jobs into political appointments, meaning workers could be fired if they're not sufficiently loyal to Trump.
VOUGHT: Eighty percent of my time is working on the plans of what's necessary to take control of these bureaucracies. I want to be the person that crushes the deep state. I think there's a lot of different ways to do that. It is defunding it. It's impoundment, the ability to not spend money.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): Yeah.
VOUGHT: It's getting rid of their independence.
LAH (voice-over): Even as Vought talks about the so-called deep state, he claims his group is forming its own to take over on day one. VOUGHT: We are trying to create a shadow Office of Management and Budget, a shadow National Security Council, and a shadow Office of Legal Counsel.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): Yeah.
VOUGHT: These are the main organs in government that you need outside to create the battle plan.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): And you're not going to publish those?
VOUGHT: No.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): They go straight to --
VOUGHT: Yeah, they're a very, very close hold.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LAH (on camera): We are hearing from both the Trump campaign and Russell Vought's organization in response to the video. A spokesperson for Vought's group is downplaying the video, saying Vought has spoken about these same topics publicly, telling CNN -- quote -- "Thank you for airing our perfect conversation emphasizing our policy work is totally separate from the Trump campaign." The Trump campaign says only President Trump and the campaign represent policies for the second term. Audie?
CORNISH: Kyung Lah, thanks so much. Now, ahead, charges against five people in connection with the death of Matthew Perry: Doctors, dealers, and an assistant. Prosecutor say they all took advantage of the actor's addiction issues. We'll have more on that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CORNISH: Nearly 10 months after the death of actor Matthew Perry, five people are now charged in connection with the overdose that took his life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN ESTRADA, U.S. ATTORNEY: These defendants took advantage of Mr. Perry's addiction issues to enrich themselves. They knew what they were doing was wrong, they knew what they were doing was risking great danger to Mr. Perry, but they did it anyway.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: In today's announcement, investigators revealed that they uncovered an underground network of drug sellers and also suppliers that they allege are ultimately responsible for distributing the ketamine that killed the "Friends" star. The defendants include two doctors, Perry's live-in personal assistant, and a person referred to by authorities as the Ketamine Queen. Three of the five have reached a plea agreement.
Perry was found floating face down in a jacuzzi at his L.A. home, this was last October, and an autopsy showed that he died of -- quote -- "acute effects of ketamine and subsequent drowning."
So, joining me now for some context, Dr. Bankole Johnson. He's a biomedical sciences professor at Larkin University in Miami. And New York Times national correspondent Ernesto Londono. He's the author of "Trippy: The Peril and Promise of Medicinal Psychedelics."
So, first, I want to start with you, Ernesto, because when we talk about psychedelics and ketamine, where is ketamine on that spectrum of sort of considerations for effectiveness?
ERNESTO LONDONO, NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Sure, there's been a lot of really interesting research into the therapeutic use of ketamine as a psychiatric drug. What -- what researchers have found is that for many patients who have not responded to conventional treatments such as antidepressants, one dose of ketamine or a handful of doses of ketamine can really be transformative in a really short period of time. These can be really fat-acting drugs.
However, this whole field has been a little bit of a wild west because this drug is not approved by the FDA as a psychiatric intervention. So right now, physicians are prescribing it off label and the cost remains high. And what this means is that some patients who get a taste of ketamine therapy in a clinical setting then go on to sell Medicaid, acquiring it on the black market where things can go wrong.
CORNISH: Dr. Johnson, I want to come to you, but just for a little bit of context connected to what Ernesto said. You know, at one point, Matthew Perry actually kind of denounced ketamine in his memoir, saying that it wasn't for him, and that in the end, you know, he thought -- he described it as being hit in the head with a giant happy shovel.
Do people understand the risks of addiction or do you think that there is a world of doctors who are not truly forthcoming about them?
BANKOLE JOHNSON, CEO AND FOUNDER OF CASA PRIVEE, PROFESSOR OF BIOMEDICAL SCIENCES AT LARKIN UNIVERSITY: Thank you for having me on your show. I think the first thing I'd like to make a slight correction to is that ketamine is approved for the treatment of depression. And also, individuals get ketamine for the treatment of anxiety, for pain, and for other disorders. In fact, it has been used experimentally to even help people withdraw from even more powerful drugs.
I think that the concern about ketamine has been the unregulated use of ketamine. And in that way, I believe Ernesto is right and that there have not been enough steps to be able to regulate the licensing of clinics to be able to use ketamine properly.
[23:45:07]
And I think that the death of Matthew Perry was, obviously, a terrible tragedy for us all, but I think that there are important lessons to be learned.
CORNISH: I want to talk about those lessons because what's interesting about this case is, as far as I can see from the reporting, he was going to a clinic at a certain point. They stopped or refused him having more of the drug, and then he went and pursued access to more.
So, what is this gray area of doctors, I guess, who are prescribing in this way, Dr. Bankole?
JOHNSON: I think that the most important lesson is that ketamine has to be provided in a medically-supervised environment. And in clinics that usually give ketamine, they're very careful or most of the ones that are licensed are very careful.
And if a patient then starts to use ketamine surreptitiously, that means they start to order ketamine or go to get ketamine outside of the clinical practice and the doctors are aware of it, they really need to stop the ketamine administration and take it seriously as a deepening addiction.
The problem that occurs is that, sometimes, the doctors are not supervising the patients carefully enough or they're not paying attention or they're rather a little bit (INAUDIBLE) because, you know, ketamine is a Schedule III drug --
CORNISH: Uh-hmm.
JOHNSON: -- and it's generally (INAUDIBLE). And that lack of attention to patient care is one of the important lessons to be learned from the Matthew Perry case.
CORNISH: Ernesto, you know, in your book, you chronicled your personal journey with psychedelic therapy, but what was really fascinating about it is how you kind of got into the world of middling oversight. What's significant about this particular investigation by authorities?
LONDONO: Well, I think the FDA has been sending some pretty consistent signals in the past couple of years that they're concerned about the shape of this emerging ketamine medical field. So, I think they're trying to pump the brakes on the hype that we've seen around not just ketamine, but the broader landscape of mind-altering drugs in the context of mental health treatment.
I think the biggest takeaway for people may be interested in this is, you know, if you're seeing advertising and if you're seeing claims that sound too good to be true, they probably are.
And although these compounds and these interventions can be very effective for people who are suffering, I think the crucial piece is what kind of support and what kind of therapy comes alongside these trips. And that, I think, is where many people, you know, take a shortcut in thinking that the experience in and of itself is going to land them in a better place when, in fact, healing takes a lot of work and a lot of attention.
CORNISH: Well, I want to thank both of you for giving us this context, for sharing your expertise. Bankole Johnson and Ernesto Londono, thanks so much.
Next, Colin Kaepernick hasn't been on the NFL field in eight years, but his former coach has opened the door for him to return, although not in the way you might imagine. We'll explain that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CORNISH: Could Colin Kaepernick be making a comeback to the NFL? Well, his former 49ers coach, Jim Harbaugh, hopes so. In a new interview with USA Today's Jarrett Bell, he reveals that he offered the quarterback a coaching gig earlier this year. ESPN's Stephen A. Smith had some colorful commentary on whether the proposal has any legs. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN A. SMITH, NBA ANALYST FOR ESPN, YOUTUBE HOST: I think Colin Kaepernick would be a good coach. I think that Colin Kaepernick, if he wants the opportunity, should be the coach. What I would say, however, is I don't want to hear shit about him being a quarterback no more. That ship should have sailed. Not only has it sailed, it should have sailed. I know some people don't want to say it. I will.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Okay. So, what does Kaepernick think? We're going to ask the reporter who got the scoop, NFL columnist for "USA Today," Jared Bell. Jared, this is a great scoop, so just props to you for that. Can you just give us a little context? How did this conversation even come about?
JARRETT BELL, NFL COLUMNIST, USA TODAY: Well, you think back to Jim Harbaugh being a big supporter of Colin Kaepernick. Obviously, their connection with the 49ers back in 2011, 2012. You know, Jim Harbaugh still has a lot of love for Colin Kaepernick.
And I was out at Chargers training camp last week and just thought I'd ask him to check his pulse in terms of whether or not he'd been in touch with Kaepernick, whether or not he wanted to do anything in terms of bringing him in in some capacity, because when Harbaugh took the job with the Chargers earlier this year, there was rumblings back at that point that, hey, maybe Colin Kaepernick would be a guy he'd try to bring in.
CORNISH: Right.
BELL: So basically, I was just trying to find out what Harbaugh was thinking. And then he told me, he says, hey, we talked about it, and I told him that the door is open, and if he wants to go into coaching, then there's a spot here for him to proceed with that.
[23:55:05]
CORNISH: Now, I don't want to create unnecessary suspense, spoiler alert. He hasn't gotten a call back yet.
BELL: That was the thing that Harbaugh also told me. He says, hey, they talked months ago, Kaepernick was going to think about it, and that they never reconnected since then. So, the way I left the conversation with Harbaugh was thinking that it is still a possibility. If not now, maybe in the future. And the thing that Jim Harbaugh was adamant about was saying, hey, I know this is a big decision for him. If this is the path that he wants to take, then I'm here for him.
Also, think about this too, Audie. When Kaepernick, who was, let's face it, blackballed from the NFL and was in the process of still trying to play, and as he said recently to Sky Sports, the London- based TV network, he still wants to play. So, there's that bridge that's a little bit separate from this but --
CORNISH: Yeah.
BELL: -- and that was the thing that Stephen A. so eloquently addressed. But the point being that when Kaepernick was out in the wilderness, if you will, Jim Harbaugh had him at the University of Michigan. He had an open workout for him.
CORNISH: He did.
BELL: He just showed nothing but support and love for Colin Kaepernick.
CORNISH: And we should say Harbaugh actually has a couple other ex- players who are coaching staff as well. He's very loyal in that way. You know, Kaepernick, as we know, has not played since the 2016 season when he began this very high-profile protest against police brutality and racial inequality, famously bending his knee during the national anthem.
And I tend to think of his story as this kind of unfinished business, not just the athletics, but of, like, the NFL's disinterest in talking about those issues. How do you see it?
BELL: I think that's a good point, especially when you think about the issue that Colin Kaepernick lost his career over -- really kind of manifested itself on a larger scale not long after that with the murder of George Floyd.
And the NFL, after the George Floyd situation, really, you know, kind of came out and said, hey, we need to listen more to our players and really embrace them and some of the efforts that they have and some of their concerns. And the NFL actually took steps to try to, you know, bridge some of those gaps with its players, with all except for Colin Kaepernick. Colin Kaepernick had a collusion case against the NFL. It was settled at an undisclosed amount, but it did not result in him getting another opportunity. Although there were several teams that thought about it, there were several teams that --
CORNISH: Right.
BELL: -- kicked the tires on it, it never happened, it never materialized. I think that's the thing that has to be so frustrating to Colin Kaepernick, especially, Audie, when he looks to see some of the mediocre quarterbacks out there in the NFL, especially in your backup positions.
CORNISH: Yeah.
BELL: I think the one thing --
CORNISH: But let me jump in here because I think for those of us who, like, don't follow it as closely, we also see players who are a little bit older, who are getting more time out on the field. It's not so far-fetched, but is it? Like, is it basically kind of fantasy at this point? Just because sports guys always, like, are very strident in their opinions about these things. But has the ship -- quote, unquote -- "sailed?"
BELL: Yeah, I guess the thing that I would love to see as a longtime observer and journalist, I'd love to see him just get a shot. Now, that's not saying that some team, the Chargers are the team that we're talking about right now, would say, okay, you're going to come in and be our quarterback. No, we're not talking about that. But we see quarterbacks come off the couch and help a team in an emergency situation.
The NFL last season had more backup quarterbacks start games because of injuries than at any point in NFL history. So, we're talking about the most important position. We're talking about a position that definitely has a high injury rate. So, why not take a look at Colin Kaepernick if you think that he can help you in a certain situation?
On the other side of the coin, Kaepernick would have to be willing to go into that type of situation --
CORNISH: Yeah.
BELL: -- just to get back on the field. But this whole idea about maybe joining the coaching staff of the Chargers, I think if Kaepernick, and I don't know because we haven't heard from Kaepernick on this particular issue --
CORNISH: Uh-hmm.
BELL: -- whether or not he'd even be interested in it because, Audie, it's tough to go from being a player to a coach, the long hours coaching.
CORNISH: Yeah. BELL: You really have to have dedication for that. So, don't know where Colin Kaepernick stands on that level.
CORNISH: We'll see if the phone rings for the coach. Jarrett Bell, thank you so much for your time. Great scoop.
[00:00:00]
And I want to thank all of you for watching. Stay with us. "Anderson Cooper 360" is next.
