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Laura Coates Live
Trump-Backed Candidate's Porn Site Comments Unearthed; Laura Coates Interviews Mayor Rob Rue; Harris Reunites with Oprah for Star- Studded Campaign Event; Diddy's Inner Circle Draws New Scrutiny as Probe Widens; Kentucky Sheriff Charged in Murder of Local Judge; Lucky Loser: Inside the Story of Trump's Financial Gains and Falls. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired September 19, 2024 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00]
(LAUGHTER)
UNKNOWN: He said, put children in their own play.
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: There's nothing wrong with kids.
UNKNOWN: I love that.
UNKNOWN: You don't.
PHILLIP: As soon as you have a child, you'll understand why the only appropriate response when you see a child acting up in public is empathy for both the child --
UNKNOWN: And parent.
PHILLIP: -- and for the parents.
UNKNOWN: Over real? (Ph)
(LAUGHTER)
UNKNOWN: No compassion, man. Zero.
PHILLIP: Okay. All right, everyone, thank you very much for watching "NewsNight: State of the Race." "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
UNKNOWN: Okay. All right.
(LAUGHTER)
LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Tonight on "Laura Coates Live," scandal strikes Trump's choice for governor in a swing state over uncovered comments about being a Black Nazi. Could it end Trump's undefeated run in the key battleground state?
Plus, threats against Springfield, Ohio. They refuse to slow down over false claims about immigrants eating pets. Now the mayor is giving himself emergency powers. He's my guest tonight.
And the grand jury that indicted Diddy, here's for more witnesses. Is pressure mounting on his entire inner circle, including the person known as his right-hand woman?
Donald Trump has called him Martin Luther King on steroids. No, I have no idea what that even means, but I know it's not true. And a major scandal involving a GOP nominee for governor has everybody balking at the audacity of even the initial comparison.
I'm talking about this candidate, Mark Robinson, the current North Carolina Lieutenant Governor. Now, he is the Trump-backed choice for the state's top post. And Republicans are now asking themselves tonight, forget about his own chances at the governor, but will this new bombshell hurt Trump's chances in North Carolina come this November?
Now, that bombshell is, and mind you, this is the kind of story that makes you kind of cock your head to the side, scan the headlines twice, just because you actually read it all right, a CNNK file investigation that unearths incredibly disturbing comments that Robinson made on a porn website more than a decade ago.
Now, some of it, we can't air. But here's what we can: In one, he described himself as a Black Nazi. In a thread discussing then President Barack Obama in 2012, he wrote -- quote -- "I'd take Hitler over any of the shit that's in Washington right now." He talked about slavery, saying -- quote -- "Slavery is not bad. Some people need to be slaves. I wish they would bring it back. I would certainly buy a few."
He bragged about peeping on women in public gym showers as a 14-year- old and suggested that he still fantasized about that as an adult, writing that he liked watching transgender porn, adding -- quote, "that's effing hot," while calling himself perf. That one is noteworthy because Robinson bills himself as a social conservative. Case in point?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK ROBINSON, LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, NORTH CAROLINA: There is no reason anybody anywhere in America should be telling any child about transgenderism, homosexuality, any of that filth.
The transgender movement in this country -- if there's a movement in this country that is demonic and that is full of the spirit of Antichrist, it is the transgender movement.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Now, I know what you're thinking. Now, how do we know it was actually Robinson that made all these posts? Well, CNN's KFile connected the dots, and there were many, many dots. Robinson used the same username across other platforms. And stories told on the porn forum match his biography, including where he's from, that he married in 1990. The account on Nude Africa used phrases Robinson mentions elsewhere online like -- quote -- "frogs, fat ass, and dunderhead." Now, Robinson denies that he said any of this, and he is also vowing to stay in the race. And he suggests that something else entirely may be to blame. Artificial intelligence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBINSON: There has been over $1 million spent on me through A.I. by a billionaire son who is bound and determined to destroy me. The things that people can do with the internet now is incredible. But what I can tell you is this: Again, these are not my words. It's just like Clarence Thomas said years ago, this is a high-tech lynching. And, you know, back long years ago, they used to use rope. Now, they're using cable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Well, the Trump campaign is out with a statement tonight touting its efforts in North Carolina -- touting their efforts in North Carolina. It doesn't actually mention Robinson.
[23:05:01]
And CNN is learning that despite efforts to distance Trump from him, there have been no efforts to pressure him to drop out at all. Time will tell if it stays that way. But one thing we do know for sure, the internet never seems to forget.
Joining me now, Republican strategist Jonathan Bridges. He served as campaign manager of former Congressman Mark Walker in a race against Lieutenant Governor Mark Robinson for North Carolina's governor.
Good morning, Jonathan. Good evening. What time of day is it? I don't know. Jonathan, good evening to you right now. I guess reading some of what I have read tonight makes me a little bit dizzying in some respects. These posts are shocking. You are calling on Robinson to resign. Why have you decided to speak out now?
JONATHAN BRIDGES, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, FORMER CAMPAIGN MANAGER FOR MARK WALKER'S NORTH CAROLINA GUBERNATORIAL CAMPAIGN: Well, good evening, Laura. And yes, it has been a long day with this October surprise. Look, you know, the comments are egregious. Whether or not Trump actually said it, whether it's A.I., it's certainly --
COATES: You mean -- you mean whether Robinson said it?
BRIDGES: -- something that cannot be swept under the door.
COATES: Excuse me, you mean whether Robinson said it?
BRIDGES: Correct.
COATES: Okay.
BRIDGES: Correct, whether Robinson said it. It's got to be addressed. And whether or not Robinson's team does that is left to be seen. COATES: You know, the North Carolina Republican Party has said tonight, and I'm quoting here, "Mark Robinson has categorically denied the allegations made by CNN but that won't stop the left from trying to demonize him via personal attacks." What does that say about the state's party that they are willing to stand with Robinson and really accuse KFile, it seems, of destroying the truth?
BRIDGES: Yeah, you know, that story, that statement probably came out around an hour or two hours ago. And, you know, that's the GOP's prerogative, to stand by Robinson. But the truth of the matter is, and we saw this with Carolina Journal's latest poll today, our Republicans are slightly behind the Democrats for council of state up and down the ballot. We've got to move to the center. We've got to hit moderate swing voters. And the question is, can Robinson and other candidates do that?
COATES: Will this scandal that doesn't seem to be going anywhere yet, will this cost Trump North Carolina?
BRIDGES: You know, before this week, I initially said no, Trump was fine, people know Trump, they've seen him in action as president, and Trump would be fine. But after today's poll, after today's scandal that came out, call it a scandal at this point, Trump is actually neck-and-neck with Kamala Harris in North Carolina. That says a lot in the state that previously carried Trump.
So, I think now he's worried, his campaign is worried. Trump is a president that closely looks at poll numbers. He looks at public opinion. The question remains to be seen whether the Trump camp puts out a statement or -- and they stay behind Robinson or not.
COATES: We shall see how this all unfolds. Something tells me there is going to be some legs with this. Jonathan Bridges, thank you so much.
BRIDGES: Thank you.
COATES: Let's continue the conversation with Republican strategist Liam Donovan and CNN political commentator Karen Finney. Glad to have both of you guys on. First of all, I'd say just in reading the things that were reportedly said, it's pretty mind blowing to think about and hypocrisy seems to be a part of this conversation. But also, he is defiant. He's not stepping down. He says, I never said any of these things.
And he has been making, frankly, inflammatory comments for a long time, Liam. This type of calling him from a Black Nazi, though, or slavery, not good. I see your eyes bugging out because you share the disbelief.
LIAM DONOVAN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, FORMER NATIONAL REPUBLICAN SENATORIAL COMMITTEE AIDE: I do. I think -- look, if you knew Mark Robinson's name before today, this probably doesn't surprise you. But even those phrases that you said, I mean, this is next level stuff.
Look, I think Mark Robinson is an extreme version of something that the Republican Party has had a problem with for more than a decade here, predating Trump, having an affinity of the base for flashing the pan candidates that say transgressive things and that being something that gives them a boost.
The problem is without a deep base of support like somebody like Trump has, when things get this hot, like, I mean, just saying outlandish things, when you get to a general election, that's not going to sell.
And look, even before today, Robinson was pretty much cooked. That was a race they were not going to win.
COATES: Interesting.
DONOVAN: North Carolina is very good at electing Republican presidents and Democratic governors. It happened when Bush won both times. It happened when Trump won in 2016. The question is, can they get enough of a separation from the ticket to allow Trump to not have to worry about being dragged down?
COATES: And that's really -- I think if the trajectory, as you described, is accurate, then really the question is whether it will impact Trump's campaign in North Carolina.
[23:10:02]
And, well, he has been pretty effusive in the past for Robinson. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is Martin Luther King on steroids. I think you're better than Martin Luther King. I think you are Martin Luther King times two.
One of the great stars of the party, one of the great stars in politics, Lieutenant Governor Mark Robinson.
I'm a great supporter of his. You're an incredible lieutenant governor, Mark Robinson.
This is a hot politician. He is a hot politician, Lieutenant Governor Mark Robinson.
A real star, great guy, friend of mine, Mark Robinson.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
COATES: Martin Luther King Jr. times two.
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Uh-huh.
COATES: Okay. When you make sort of hyperbolic statements, there's obviously consequences. FINNEY: Yeah.
COATES: Accurate statements even more so.
FINNEY: Yes.
COATES: But can he control the damage here?
FINNEY: You're like, discuss --
COATES: I discuss, discuss. Talk amongst yourselves. The topic is this.
FINNEY: So here are couple things that I will put on the table. Let's also remember that Donald J. Trump has been found liable for sexual assault of a woman that -- and we've heard other, you know. So, there's a level of hypocrisy here in a Republican party that is supposed to be about family values and valuing people that were -- so, the top of the ticket in the gubernatorial race is someone who would say these things.
And even when he -- even before -- like you said, if you didn't know his name because of this today and you heard his name previously. It's not like this is the first time he said these horrible things. We really should not be surprised.
COATES: Hmm.
FINNEY: Clearly, somebody did not do their job in the oppo research department and the self-research. That's a whole other topic. But I think it is an indication of a Republican Party that is very much lost because remember in 2022 when a number of MAGA candidates made their way through the primaries and really were an embarrassment to the Republican Party.
And it was -- you know, there's this question, is Trump going to be a drag on them or are they going to be a drag on Trump? And I don't know if we know the answer to that because here's the thing, you know, Liam is exactly right, the Harris campaign is going to tie Donald Trump to this candidate over and over and over again over the next 47 days. This is his guy, right?
COATES: Yeah.
FINNEY: And that's his judgment. It's a judgment question as well. But I think the bigger question for the Republican Party is, when is it going to stop? When are you going to -- when are moderates in the party, true conservatives in the party going to stand up and say enough? We're not going to keep nominating people who are, you know, saying these crazy, racist, sexist, misogynist, dangerous things. When does that happen? And when does the -- when do the people who are in the middle stand up? Because the people who didn't vote in a republican primary, that's on you, that's your guy, you made that happen.
COATES: So, when you look at this, Liam, to Karen's point, about the red lines that are drawn or maybe not drawn -- I mean, if you put back on the screen those lists of controversial endorsements of Trump in the past, and every one, we can point to a story, that campaign strategists must be pulling their hair out when there's association.
And there is a town like Washington, D.C. when everyone is ready to take a 10-foot pole and extend it any time you season correctly. They don't want to be tied to anything bad. Why do you think the Trump strategy, though, is to be dismissive of the criticism of these people?
DONOVAN: We'll have to see what happens with the Trump people. They've been pretty quiet here right now. It sounds like they're trying to work behind the scenes --
COATES: Yeah.
DONOVAN: -- to get him out if that's possible. It's like we're really at the 11th hour in terms of getting him off the ballot or however that works with state law. One thing I would note about that cast of characters, that "Star Wars" bar that you had up on the screen there --
(LAUGHTER)
-- on a number of them, those were Trump picks. Trump put a thumb on the scale, he decided who they'd be. The unique thing, and the tie that I saw on that screen was Roy Moore. Roy Moore was not a Trump pick. Roy Moore was the pick of the Republican base --
COATES: Hmm.
DONOVAN: -- against Trump's pick. What, to your point, Trump did was, when the chips were down, he backed Roy Moore to the hilt, despite all the things that we know about Roy Moore. So, the question is here: Does Trump, in his style, as he has wanted to do, often kind of double down? In this case, Robinson is so toxic, it doesn't seem wise. There's really nothing in it for Trump.
One thing that I would note, though, I think in terms of the Harris approach here, the shift in Harris's rhetoric from the Biden strategy of casting Trump as this existential authoritarian figure, the twist to these guys are weird, I think that comes into play here because Mark Robinson is nothing if not weird. These comments that you mentioned are nothing if not deeply, deeply weird. The question is, does sitting next to that weirdness make Trump look normal? This is about the only thing that can possibly make Trump look less threatening than someone else.
[23:15:01]
And I think as a foil, actually, that's the one way I would say maybe doesn't matter that much.
COATES: But the connective tissue -- really quick on this point. The connective tissue seems to be that he's saying, look, this -- he says artificial intelligence, all these comments about a decade ago or so. But the idea of saying that a system has been weaponized against him and that it's all false and coming from the left and the mainstream media, etcetera, that tactic has been successful at least to galvanize in the base for Trump. I think Robinson is trying to seize on that.
FINNEY: He probably is. That's exactly what it seems like, and his rhetoric was very Trump-esque on that front. We've seen other Republican candidates try that. It did not work for them the way it works for Trump because they're not Trump. I think that's the problem.
COATES: We'll see. Real quick?
DONOVAN: It's so obviously him. I mean, look, I think this stuff, the base might get there, but that's not going to get you to 50% in a state like North Carolina. Just not.
FINNEY: That's right.
COATES: We'll see. North Carolina seems to be in play. Who knew? Liam, Karen, stand by. Kamala Harris tonight getting the Oprah treatment and saying something that she thinks her staff might have to clean up. That moment is coming up.
Plus, Springfield, Ohio braces for a visit by Donald Trump as the city's mayor assumes emergency powers back to deal with the threats in his own city. Should Trump abandon his visit? I'll ask the mayor, next.
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[23:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COATES: The mayor of Springfield, Ohio today granting himself emergency powers. This in the face of threats to the city, threats that started after the former president said this about Haitian immigrants.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: In Springfield, they're eating the dogs, the people that came in. They're eating the cats. They're eating -- they're eating the pets of the people that live there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Now, since that false claim was spread to nearly 70 million people, Springfield has had to contend with dozens of threats of violence. Those threats led to the closures of schools, government offices, a cancelled festival, and fear amongst the community.
CNN caught up with a Haitian immigrant here legally on a green card who wants to now move out of Springfield because he's fearful the residents there hate Haitians. He says -- quote -- "I cannot get any new customers because if they talk to me, they know I have an accent, and they find out I'm Haitian. They think I eat their cats, you know, it's crazy. And that's the reason why I want to move."
Now, I want to bring in the mayor of Springfield, Ohio, Mayor Rob Rue. Mayor Rue, thank you for joining us. I understand that Trump says he'll be visiting your city within the next two weeks, even though you have been vocal about neither candidate coming to Springfield. Now, his campaign surrogate, Vivek Ramaswamy, held actually a town hall in Springfield tonight. I know that you were able to speak with him. Did you ask him to pass along the message?
MAYOR ROB RUE, SPRINGFIELD, OHIO: I thank you for having me on. No, that conversation didn't come up about him talking with the candidate coming to our community.
COATES: How do you feel about Trump coming to your city?
RUE: Well, I mean, I've expressed a few times that I think it's going to be an extreme strain on our infrastructure. He announced last night that he's going to come to Springfield. We will work with the Secret Service and the state officials and the local law enforcement that are here. You know, I just continue to underscore the strain that it will put on our infrastructure. If he -- if he chose to change his mind to maybe reroute from coming to Springfield, that would be a huge message of peace to Springfield as I see it.
COATES: You've given yourself temporary emergency powers because of the violent threats that your city has been receiving. Can you give us an updated number of just how many threats you've gotten as of tonight?
RUE: Well, thank you. I mean, we've had well over 35 different threats, bomb threats and personal threats, to leadership within the community, and it just continues to become more random at times. But the threats continue. We have to address each one safely and to make sure we're securing the community.
COATES: How will your emergency powers then help your residents?
RUE: If I could clarify, the emergency proclamation helps the city government move in a way to be able to serve the community during a time of crisis. We're not in a state of emergency. We are in a declarative proclamation state where we can secure contracts to better secure our city or to better communicate these emergency responses that we need to take care of.
COATES: "The Wall Street Journal" is reporting that a staffer for vice presidential nominee, Senator J.D. Vance, called up your city manager, Bryan Heck, on September 9th. And that day is important because that's the day that Vance first posted about migrants eating cats and dogs. And I'll quote from the article in this moment. The staffer says that -- quote -- "He asked point blank, 'Are the rumors true of pets being taken and eaten?' I told him no. There was no verifiable evidence or reports to show that this was true. I told them these claims were baseless."
Now, mayor, the very next day, was the presidential debate where Trump repeated the claims. Can you corroborate that that call took place and the campaign was told these rumors were not true?
RUE: Oh, not to go on about that rumor that was spread but, yes, that call was made, the answer was given, and what has happened since then has happened in the entire -- the national stage has seen that.
But it unfortunately takes away from the real argument, which is the need to look at immigration, the need to look at immigration reform for cities like ours. That can be where the real conversation needs to surround as we find ourselves in this debate spotlight. That's what we're looking for federal legislators to do, to pay attention to what's going on and how they can best serve their country by looking at immigration and border policies.
[23:25:00]
COATES: Mayor Rob Rue, thank you so much for joining us. I know this has been a particularly stressful time for yourself, your members of community, and even reporting that 200 of 500 kids were absent from a single school because of security concerns recently. Is that true? And do you have a sense of what impact this is having on the youngest populations in your community?
RUE: Oh, I'll give you a personal story. I have a seven-year-old, we're getting ready to go to school, and he asked me, why is this being said about our community and what's going on? And he's saying -- he's asking questions. It's just like why is my little seven-year-old like -- you know, we're even trying to like keep him from hearing everything that his mom and I are talking about, but at the same point.
So, that's my son. I can't imagine what all the other children are hearing and what they're having to process. It's very sad and very difficult to deal with, honestly. We want the best for our kids. We love our kids as a community. We want the best for them.
COATES: Mayor Rob Rue, heartbreaking to hear that. Thank you so much.
RUE: Thank you.
COATES: Vice President Harris tapping into Oprah's star power to boost her campaign, highlights from the night, and the one moment when Harris let her guard down.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: My staff will deal with that later.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OPRAH WINFREY, TALK SHOW HOST, TELEVISION PRODUCER, ACTRESS, AUTHOR, MEDIA PROPRIETOR: Please welcome Kamala Harris!
(APPLAUSE)
So welcome to --
HARRIS: Oprah!
WINFREY: Hello!
(LAUGHTER)
Madam Vice President, hello.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Madam Vice President Harris getting the Oprah treatment tonight as she joined the queen of daytime talk shows for a live stream campaign event meant to be part rally, part town hall with a whole dash of Oprah sprinkled throughout.
The Harris campaign hoped tonight's "Unite for America" event in the suburbs of Detroit would have the same impact of an Oprah episode. Intimate but informal. Even the set invoke motions and memories of the iconic show, a mix of politics and personal stories. And Harris showed some surprising glimpses of that tonight, like when she talked about gun ownership.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WINFREY: At the debate when you --
HARRIS: I'm a gun owner. Tim Walz is a gun owner.
WINFREY: I did not know that.
(LAUGHTER)
HARRIS: If somebody breaks in my house, they're getting shot.
(LAUGHTER)
WINIFRED: Yes, yes, I hear that. I hear that.
HARRIS: Probably should not have said that.
(LAUGHTER)
My staff will deal with that later.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COATES: Liam Donovan and Karen Finney are back with me, and Karen is the co-founder of the group "Win with Black Women," which organized tonight's Oprah Harris event. Let me start with you. I wonder, I mean, do you think if the goal was to see a separate side of Vice President Kamala Harris, with all of the criticism about not having accessibility for interviews, I mean, this is the (INAUDIBLE) of interviews, many would say, do you think that answers like that showed the type of side of her that will widen the tent?
FINNEY: I do, actually. And a couple -- and not just because I'm part of "Win with Black Women" --
COATES: Uh-hmm.
FINNEY: -- but because in addition to that moment, there was also a moment where she was talking with different Americans from different parts of the country about the issues and the challenges they're facing. In this instance, she had talked to a young woman who had been actually was shot herself in the most recent school shooting. She was there with her mother and her father. And her mother talked about the trauma of not being able to reach her daughter on her cell phone when she had heard there had been a shooting at the school.
And so, part of what I think was so powerful about it, they touched on a number of different issues. They brought -- they made them very personal and real by telling people's personal stories. She then had conversations with them about her policies and how that would fit into addressing these different issues.
I think that's very effective and that's part of why the campaign, I think, is choosing to do more of that than direct interviews, because they're wanting to spend as much time as possible directly having conversations with voters and having voters have an opportunity both to hear Kamala Harris's vision, but also get to know a little bit more about her.
COATES: And Liam, there was a particularly personal moment. Many would look at what could be more personal than a story about one's bodily autonomy, reproductive rights, their family planning. And one of the guests was the family of a woman named Amber Thurman. And she is a woman who died in Georgia, where there is a six-week abortion ban, as you all know. And she suffered a rare complication when she was taking abortion pills and died after waiting 20 hours for surgery. Her mother was there. Now, listen to what she had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHANETTE THURMAN, MOTHER OF AMBER THURMAN: I wanted to go through in silence, but I realized that it was selfish. I want you all know Amber was not a statistic. She was loved by a family, a strong family.
HARRIS: And the courage that you all have shown is extraordinary. Amber's mom shared with me that the word over and over again in her mind is preventable.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COATES: Liam, women voters extraordinarily coveted as a non-monolith but incredibly powerful demographic more broadly.
[23:35:00]
Voters look for moments to understand who a candidate is and how they react. What does a reaction like that do in terms of women voters?
DONOVAN: Well, I think just thinking back to the debate, her strongest moment and the -- where that authenticity showed through, her single strongest answer was on that abortion question. So, I think when you're in a situation like this where -- I mean, this is an incredible stagecraft, they really rebooted the Oprah show, but it's -- it can -- the risk is it comes off as synthetic. So, having powerful moments like this, that's what good TV is. I think they got what they wanted out of this. And clearly, it was playing to the audience, you know, both the women element, the Oprah audience. I mean, this was sort of right in the sweet spot of what they were looking to do. Obviously, she needs to build --
COATES: How about with men? I was going to ask you that question. Obviously, Oprah is universally lauded for her skill and her charisma as an interviewer and beyond, but the Oprah audience had largely been at some point suburban women. Men also, obviously, fans of the show, but did this go enough to appeal to men as well?
DONOVAN: I don't think it was meant to. I mean, this accomplished what it set out to do. You know, I think this is a campaign coming out of the debate that feels confident, but they don't want to take big risks. They like the way the polling is going. They're playing it safe. This is safe. It's savvy. I don't know that it's sufficient.
And it goes to that question that you raised, which is what about men? They're trying to build a firewall with women. They know that's going to be their sweet spot. You have to be able to do both. And I think the question is, as she builds her comfort level -- because that was the key that came through here. She was comfortable there, in part because it's a safe audience. You don't have an interviewer that's trying to get a gotcha.
But I think at a certain point, it makes sense for the campaign to turn her loose a bit because she's getting good at this. And with people that just need to see more, I think seeing her in an environment where she can sort of be herself is all positive.
FINNEY: Yeah, I really love the town hall format. I didn't realize they were going to do that. And again, it's about, how do you bring policy into day to day life? I think that's critically important.
The other thing, though, that I would say is, you know, when you do these kinds of things, when you're dealing with very intense emotions, it is a little risky. I mean, there were a couple moments where it could have gone a couple of different ways because the individuals, the stories they were telling were so gut wrenching that you are kind of just had to sit there with their pain for a minute, for a beat or two. That is something Oprah is brilliant at and the vice president was brilliant at, just letting them have that feeling and have that moment. And I think that's also very powerful.
COATES: Well, town hall settings are one that I think a lot of voters look to as the unscripted nature and they can get a better feel for the candidate. We'll see if there's opportunities in the future for both Trump and Harris to do the same. Liam, Karen, thank you both.
A shocking crime in Kentucky tonight. A sheriff, a sheriff now under arrest, accused of murdering a local judge in his chamber. What exactly happened? Plus, Diddy spending night number three in jail while investigators are busy on the outside building their case against him. And now, we've learned of a new male witness set to testify. Plus, one accuser calls her Diddy's Ghislaine Maxwell. So, who is she?
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[23:40:00]
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COATES: The federal criminal charges, the music mogul Sean Diddy Combs faced tonight, could be just the tip of the iceberg. CNN has learned the grand jury that indicted Diddy is still interviewing witnesses. They are expected to hear from a male sex worker in the coming days. And sources say that the allegations brought forth by witnesses who have met with federal agents go beyond the charges outlined in this week's indictment that was unsealed against Diddy.
And that indictment laid bare what prosecutors believe was a sprawling enterprise allegedly involved with helping Diddy perpetuate and perpetrate these crimes. That includes high-ranking supervisors, security and household staff, assistants, and other Combs business employees. Now, none of them have been charged. Just Diddy.
Some of them have been named in the litany of other lawsuits that Diddy faces. And one of those employees is drawing some new scrutiny. Diddy's chief of staff, Kristina Khorram. She does not face charges nor was she named in the indictment. But she was sued, along with Diddy, by music producer Rodney "Lil Rod" Jones earlier this year. Now, Jones claims that Diddy groomed, abused, and drugged him for more than a year while working on a project. And Lil Rod says that Khorram was Diddy's right-hand woman, ordering assistance to keep Diddy on drugs, finding sex workers for Diddy, and ignoring alleged abuses by Diddy against Lil Rod.
Now, Diddy denied the allegations and is trying to get the lawsuit tossed. Khorram has not responded. But Lil Rod's attorneys are doing the talking for her, going as far as calling her -- quote -- "the Ghislaine Maxwell to Sean Combs."
With me now, Neama Rahmani, former federal prosecutor and president of West Coast Trial Lawyers. Neama, thank you so much for joining. I mean, what would be the importance of someone like Kristina Khorram in a case like Diddy's? Could prosecutor pressure her to be a cooperator in some way, to flip her in some way in a criminal prosecution? NEAMA RAHMANI, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, PRESIDENT OF WEST COAST TRIAL LAWYERS: Laura, Khorram is extremely important. She's Diddy's right-hand woman. Obviously, we both worked for the DOJ, but when I was a prosecutor, my two best sources of information were always exes, husbands, wives, boyfriends, girlfriends, and employees.
[23:45:04]
They know where the bodies are buried. So, she has a lot of criminal exposure. So, I expect the feds to lean on her, make her flip, and cooperate in the trial against her boss, Sean Combs.
COATES: The lawsuit claims that people like her helped keep Diddy on drugs. Could Diddy then argue, based on that, that since he purportedly was on drugs, that he was not as involved with a conspiracy or leading a criminal enterprise as prosecutors say he was?
RAHMANI: It's an argument, but not a good one. Voluntary intoxication, including drug use, generally is not a legal defense. And if he's going to point the finger at others, we know that, at least allegedly, he's the head of the criminal enterprise. So, I don't think that's going to be an effective argument.
I think the issue will be is all the co-conspirators, they're on the hook. They're liable for the crimes committed in furtherance of the conspiracy. So even if someone like Khorram or someone else didn't actually participate in the sex acts, they could be charged and could be convicted of sex trafficking if the feds decide to go that route.
COATES: And, again, there has only been one person criminally charged in this matter, and that's Diddy. Other people have maybe been sued or named in a civil lawsuit, but we'll see what happens in the future, if anything. What do you make and glean from the news that the grand jury that indicted Diddy is actually still interviewing witnesses?
RAHMANI: Well, U.S. Attorney Damian Williams said the investigation is ongoing and that appears to be the case. Reportedly, one of the commercial sex workers is scheduled to testify before the grand jury and potentially other witnesses. This is going to be important because, as we've discussed, it's important to lock in that testimony before trial. We know that this defense case is going to be based almost entirely on cross-examination.
The argument will be that these sex acts were consensual. There was no force, fraud, coercion. So, people are testifying under penalty of perjury that they were forced. It's going to be a lot harder for them to change their testimony when we go to trial.
COATES: And, of course, the secrecy of a grand jury proceeding is such that they want to protect the testimony and protect the intimidation that could possibly occur, which goes right to a heart of the matter the judge was dealing with in this instance. A judge keeping Diddy in jail, saying that he's concerned Diddy may tamper with witnesses. And the indictment, of course, details the length Diddy went to silence people, allegedly. How do prosecutors then ensure the safety of these witnesses knowing that normally, in the average case, you're not going to know who's going in and out of a grand jury, but the high-profile nature of this is not happening?
RAHMANI: Grand jury proceedings are supposed to be secret. But there's some very good reporting and there's folks that are outside the U.S. Attorney's Office that are watching who enters and who exits. But I agree with you, Laura. I think it was Diddy contacting potential witnesses' victims. I think that was one of the determining factors for him being detained without bond, despite that very aggressive bond package that the defense put together.
Obviously, in Dawn Richard's case, the allegation was he contacted her 58 times, phone and text, over a four-day period. That, of course, could be potential obstruction, tampering, everything that you mentioned. And it really goes to the heart, really the integrity of our criminal proceedings. So, I think the government was successful in arguing that the safest thing for Diddy and everyone involved in this case is for him to be locked up until trial.
COATES: You better believe I'm going to stay on this story. Neama Rahmani, thank you so much.
RAHMANI: Thanks, Laura.
COATES: Breaking tonight, an argument inside a judge's chamber leading to a deadly shooting and the arrest of a sheriff. Here's what we know. It happened at the Letcher County Courthouse in Whitesburg, Kentucky. The sheriff, Shawn M. Stines, and district judge, Kevin Mullins, were arguing inside of Mullins's chambers. Shots then rang out.
A preliminary investigation says the sheriff shot the judge who was then found dead at the scene. The sheriff turned himself in without incident. He is now facing one count of first-degree murder.
But questions remain. Here's Kentucky State Police Trooper Matt Gayheart.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MATT GAYHEART, KENTUCKY STATE POLICE TROOPER: We know that it was an argument between the two that led up -- but what exactly transpired prior to the shots being fired? That's still things that we're trying to get answers to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: We will keep you updated on this and this story and more as we get more information.
Ahead, Donald Trump is facing a $2 billion question. Cash out or hang on to his Truth Social shares. Two reporters who know all about Trump's finances and who wrote a book about it, a new one at that, join me next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COATES: Decisions, decisions. Former President Trump now able to tap into his nearly $2 billion in Truth Social stock just as the shares hit a new low today. A dicey proposition for a person who has long been infatuated with money and status.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I'm very rich. I've built an unbelievable company.
I've been successful in every business I've been in, if you think. Real estate, one of the most successful. Television, "The Apprentice."
Nobody is bigger than me.
(APPLAUSE)
Nobody is better than me.
(LAUGHTER)
I'm a ratings machine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: That's actually him. I'm used to impersonations. That was actually him in that one. And now, a new book revealing the truth behind the former president's business empire and how exactly he got his money.
I want to bring in the authors of "Lucky Loser: How Donald Trump Squandered His Father's Fortune and Created the Illusion of Success."
[23:55:00]
"New York Times" investigative reporters Susanne Craig and Russ Buettner are both with us, who in 2018 revealed tax data about then President Trump that detailed widespread tax dodges. Glad to have both Susanne and Russ with us this evening.
Russ, I'll begin with you if we can. Trump has built an entire persona as one of the wealthiest, the most successful, savviest businessmen in the entire world. And you've done extensive reporting into his finances. What is the truth about the former president's success?
RUSS BUETTNER, CO-AUTHOR OF "LUCKY LOSER", INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES: Well, the pattern we noticed, Laura, was that he had this massive secret sort of pots of money that came his way throughout his life. First, about a half a billion dollars from his father, then about a half a billion dollars from "The Apprentice" and licensing deals from that, then later, about another several hundred million dollars from an investment he was pushed into against his will.
And he spent that money trying to create sort of a facade of being a successful businessman, buying businesses, buying buildings. A lot of those buildings went broke. And that's the cycle of luck and loss that we're writing about in this book throughout the course of his life.
COATES: I mean, Susanne, look, Trump is irked by questions about his wealth, to say the least. I'm sure that even the title alone is going to really tick him off. I want you to watch this moment from the debate after Vice President Kamala Harris drew a contrast between what she described as her middle-class upbringing and Trump's privilege.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: Not everybody got handed $400 million on a silver platter and then filed bankruptcy six times.
TRUMP: First of all, I wasn't given $400 million. I wish I was. My father was a Brooklyn builder, Brooklyn, Queens, a great father, and I learned a lot from him. But I was given a fraction of that, a tiny fraction. And I built it into many, many billions of dollars. Many, many billions. And when people see it, they are even surprised.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: So, Susanne, what did he inherit and how did he handle all that money?
SUSANNE CRAIG, CO-AUTHOR OF "LUCKY LOSER", INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES: It's interesting to hear that because he inherited hundreds of millions of dollars but he just won't let go of the idea that -- you know, he just keeps saying he came up from kind of nothing. His father was this outer borough guy and, you know, it's -- Kamala Harris really knows how to get under his skin.
And what did he do with it? I mean, he -- you know, Russ mentioned that he also made a lot of money from "The Apprentice." It was sort of the second windfall in his life. He has largely invested it in businesses that haven't done well over the years. It's sort of a squandered fortune, both the money that he inherited and the money that he made off "The Apprentice."
COATES: I mean, Russ, to that point, I mean, he has declared bankruptcy six times. He has had some very public failures. And then, of course, as you articulated, then comes "The Apprentice," this star- making machine that came to transform Trump in the early 2000s. And you write about, frankly, how shocked producers were in their first meeting with Trump at Trump Tower. Tell me about that.
BUETTNER: So, the producers had been working on "The Survivor" for years, on Mark Burnett's other show called "The Survivor," where they were filming in jungles and they were very used to focusing on signs of danger to give that show drama. They walked into these offices looking for signs of wealth because that was going to be the thematic center of this show. And they stepped off the elevator on the 26th floor at Trump Tower. And the first thing they noticed was that the carpet smelt. There was just this musty stink to everything that followed them around. And then they noticed all the furniture was chipped. They noticed all of it seemed to date back 20 years to when Donald Trump had opened that building and set his office in that room.
And they realized they were going to have to create an entirely fictional universe of Trump Organization and also have to recreate, remake the image of Donald Trump into something approaching a successful businessman, which is what they needed for the show.
COATES: And indeed, that image, for so many people, Susanne, has been their singular, you know, point that they reference --
CRAIG: Right.
COATES: -- as to his wealth. And obviously, the magic of television can add a lot. But you also write, Susanne, about Trump's unpredictability on the show. I mean, an "Apprentice" producer revealed to you that there were great lengths that producers would actually go to try to fix Trump's mistakes. I'll read one part of it, saying -- quote -- "Our job then was to reverse engineer the show and to make him not look like a complete moron" -- unquote. What was that all about?
CRAIG: Right. Well, the idea that he's even unpredictable, you know, you don't want that in a CEO. And all the things that Donald Trump sort of had on the show were great for television, but not really good qualities that you would want in a businessman. But it's interesting because when the producers saw how unpredictable he was, they knew that they had TV magic.
And Russ and I have often talked about the opening scene of "The Apprentice," which I think a lot of people know. I mean, I'm a billionaire and there's helicopters.
[23:59:56]
You know, Trump's flying over Manhattan and that incredible scene on top of Trump Tower where they make him out to sort of be, you know, the king of New York. It's one of the greatest political ads ever, it rehabilitated his image, and I think, you know, really convinced so many Americans that he was, you know, the real deal and helped lead them to the White House. There's no question about that.
COATES: Well, this book is so interesting in that it's kind of a which came first, the chicken or the egg, his true success or the perception of it. Susanne, Russ, thank you both so much.
CRAIG: Thank you.
COATES: Their book again is called "Lucky Loser." Well, thank you all for watching. "Anderson Cooper 360" is next.
