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Laura Coates Live

Trump Delivers Shock Waves Over MAGA Cabinet Picks; Governors Launch New Fight Against Trump's Policies. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired November 13, 2024 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: And that's because Trump insisted that he won the election and refused to hold it.

Thank you very much for watching "NewsNight." "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.

LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: You know what occurred to me tonight? That we may be seeing the cabinet edition of -- what do you call it? Donald Trump's weave. Starts off with traditional picks, Rubio for state, people follow along, then all of a sudden, it's a former veteran and Fox News host for DOD. And the squinting begins.

But then he's off to the attorney general. And this one, this one has even members of his own party struggling to follow along. He has tapped Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz to be his next attorney general. Process that.

Now, we know Trump has promised retribution, hasn't he? And this pick, well, it certainly shows that he wants to deliver some aspect of it. Gaetz is a MAGA loyalist through and through, and he is no stranger to this department, but he has now been tapped to run.

The DOJ, if you remember, investigated him for three years over alleged sex crimes. It ultimately chose not to pursue charges against him, but that didn't save him from an ethics probe in Congress.

That, of course, was ongoing until today, ending when Gaetz resigned to prepare for his A.G. confirmation battle, and it likely will be a battle even though he has denied any wrongdoing on that front.

The announcement, actually, it came as a surprise to many, one that some could not suppress. At the DOJ -- quote -- "the shock is intense." At the U.S. attorney's office here in D.C., where I was a prosecutor, absolute disbelief. In the room where House Republicans were meeting for their leadership elections, there was an audible gasp. In the halls of the Capitol, Republican senators totally blindsided. Susan Collins saying that she was shocked.

But here's the thing. The blindsided senators might want to revisit this once the initial shock wears off because how big of a surprise is this, really? I mean, what is the Trump rubric? Is he a 100% loyal? Check. Does he hate the DOJ? Check. Is he good on T.V.? Well, Trump would say check. And does he sound like Donald Trump? Check. See for yourself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): We try to convince ourselves that the Department of Justice is different, that they're somehow exempt from the rules of Washington that say, help my friends and punish my enemies. They aren't. They're probably the worst.

January 6 last year wasn't an insurrection. No one has been charged with insurrection. No one has been charged with treason. But it very well may have been a Fed-surrection.

I think that the FBI has morphed into a political opposition research organization and a political activism organization more than a law enforcement organization.

Listen, I believe that Donald Trump won the 2020 election.

Our America is not for the illegal aliens who leave our nation poorer, dirtier, and less safe.

(APPLAUSE)

They have made a mockery of our laws and illegal aliens have destroyed some of the most critical monarch butterfly habitat in the world.

These people are odious on the inside and out. They're like 5'2", 350 pounds, and they're like, give me my abortions or I'll get up and march and protest. And I'm thinking, march? You look like you got ankles weaker than the legal reasoning behind Roe versus Wade.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Feel free to pause, rewind, and play that back again several times to really understand the weight of this nomination. It's a fraction of what might come up at his Senate confirmation hearing.

The Senate majority leader, John Thune, he has promised that it will vet all of Trump's nominees, except there's maybe one little problem with that. He also said that he's willing to back Trump's demand to use recess appointments to bypass the confirmation process. And if that happens, well, here's how Democratic Senator Chris Murphy put it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): Well, I mean, that -- that would be, you know, the end of the United States Senate. If the Senate chose to end its power of advice and consent and just allow the president to choose without any input, confirmation process or approval, his cabinet -- I don't know why we would continue to show up for work. That's not a democracy anymore.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[23:05:04]

COATES: Joining me now, Democratic congresswoman who always shows up, Jasmine Crockett. She sits on the House Oversight Committee, and she's certainly here tonight. Thank you for joining us.

I have to exhale as a former alum of DOJ and thinking about what my colleagues are thinking tonight and wrestling with. You don't think Matt Gaetz is qualified to be the attorney general. Tell me why.

(LAUGHTER)

REP. JASMINE CROCKETT (D-TX): The list is long. First of all, you know, let me just say I thank you for your service, and I think that when you sign up to do something like work at the DOJ, it really is just that, like, you guys aren't paid a ton of money, you can go out and make so much more money in private practice, and it's really about standing up for the United States.

And so, the idea that you're going to have someone that is charged with going into court on behalf of the government, someone who has historically been trying to tear it apart from the inside, remember, this is the guy that made sure to kick out our first speaker. You know, this is a guy that I don't know if he has ever really practiced law. I had to Google to find out if he even had a law degree because I was, like, wait a minute, what are we doing?

But more importantly, this is someone who has been under investigation with the DOJ. This is someone who decided that he was going to resign today because on Friday, our ethics committee was going to vote on whether or not to release this report and potentially proceed just like they proceeded against George Santos. Now mind you, this is an investigation that has gone on since 2021 --

COATES: Uh-hmm.

CROCKETT: -- where they have subpoenaed so many documents, and they finally reached a culmination, and for some reason, he decided to get out right before that report came out.

COATES: Is that gone? Will we not see that report ever, you think?

CROCKETT: I don't know. I mean, right now, because he is leaving Congress, because he resigned, then the ethics committee has no jurisdiction over him. So, it's a matter of, you know, if he runs for the seat later, then this can absolutely come back. We don't know because maybe he won't get confirmed or maybe they'll skip over the confirmation process. I mean, we are just in uncharted territory.

But if anybody is surprised, then I say you haven't been paying attention, because the reality is that we have someone that is not qualified, morally or otherwise, to be president of the United States. So why would his appointments be qualified? These are people that have railed against diversity, equity, inclusion, trying to say that diverse candidates are somehow not qualified.

But the reality is that what they want to do is more of this, is put people that are not qualified in and say, well, you know what, because he's my homeboy, he is qualified.

That's not enough. That is what the good, old boy system has always been about, and it's why we have not ever reached our maximum potential, because we do take the real qualified people out of the running because they don't bend the knee or because, culturally, their background is a little different.

COATES: How do people view him in Congress? You -- of course, you have mentioned -- we've all seen --

CROCKETT: Uh-hmm.

COATES: I mean, I -- I think I know the answer. I remember how Speaker McCarthy viewed it and even --

CROCKETT: Oh, yeah.

COATES: -- the quest to become the person to hold that gavel.

CROCKETT: Oh, yeah.

COATES: We saw that throughout the wee small hours of the morning. How do you think he's viewed in light of his loyalty to Trump and his -- frankly, his promises about what he wants to see happen to the DOJ?

CROCKETT: In -- in reality, I think a lot of his colleagues are probably happy that he's gone.

COATES: Really?

CROCKETT: Oh, absolutely.

COATES: Even to a role like this? This is a very esteemed --

CROCKETT: They're just happy to be done with him. I'm sure. I am sure of that. There are certain people that have been thorns in the side for Republicans, potentially even more than Democrats. And Matt Gaetz is one of those people. And so, they don't really care where he goes. It means for them that maybe they can go ahead and start to govern a little bit better. I don't really see it. I think that they still have plenty other thorns left --

COATES: Hmm.

CROCKETT: -- that are going to cause them problems. You know, I don't think that this is a really serious post, though. I think that he's probably going to try to get someone else through the confirmation process who's probably pretty bad. But when you compare him to Matt Gaetz, you're like, well, he's not that bad. No. He's probably still going to try to get -- he knows that Matt Gaetz -- I don't see Matt Gaetz making it through. I really don't.

COATES: Now, that's fascinating, the idea of what's happening in the periphery, what one must pay attention to. We'll have to see what happens. Congresswoman, a very astute point. Thank you for joining us as always. CROCKETT: It's good to see you.

COATES: If Gaetz is to be confirmed, though, he's going to have to convince Senate Republicans. And by the sound of it, it might be very hard.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R-ME) (voice-over): I was shocked that he has been nominated.

[23:09:55]

If the nomination proceeds, I'm sure that there will be an extensive background check by the FBI and public hearings, and a lot of questions asked.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: I'm having trouble.

(LAUGHTER)

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: What about Matt Gaetz?

UNKNOWN: We have a confirmation process.

I don't know yet, I'll have to think about that one.

RAJU: I mean, do you have any concerns about it?

UNKNOWN: We'll see.

RAJU: Do you think Matt Gaetz is confirmable?

UNKNOWN: We'll find out, won't we?

RAJU: Senator Kennedy, what do you think of Matt Gaetz as attorney general?

SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R-LA): Happy Thanksgiving.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN (R-OK): I completely trust President Trump's decision making on this one. But at the same time, he's got to come to Congress and sell himself. There's a lot of -- to the Senate and sell himself. There's a lot of questions that are going to be out there. He got to answer those questions. And hopefully, he's able to answer the questions right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: I want to bring in CNN senior reporter Edward-Isaac Dovere, former Obama State Department spokesperson Nayyera Haq, and CNN senior political commentator Scott Jennings as well is here. Thank you all for being here.

Look, the reaction has been quite fierce and quick, frankly. Even "The Wall Street Journal" editorial board is saying, Scott, and they're saying this about Gaetz, "This is a bad choice that would undermine confidence in the law. The attorney general has to make calls on countless difficult questions of whom to investigate and indict. Gaetz's decisions simply wouldn't be trusted. He's a nominee for those who want the law used for political revenge, and it won't end well."

Will it end well in the Senate? Will they confirm him?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRESIDNET TO PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: I think of the things we've seen come out. He's got the hardest road. There's no question. I mean, based on what I've heard tonight, he starts under the line --

COATES: Hmm.

JENNINGS: -- of confirmation, whereas I think Hegseth and even Gabbard have more than a fighting chance along with most everyone else that has already gone up. So, there's no question he -- he starts below the line and would have to fight -- fight to get it. That then raises the question of whether he would try to do it through a recess appointment. And I'm skeptical that they're going to go along with that, too. I don't know. And obviously, there's a lot of road between here and there.

But it -- it -- he is -- Trump is definitely laying down a marker here, which is to say, he's feeling his oats. and I'm the president- elect, I'm the biggest star in this party. And he's -- he's laying down a marker. And he's going to bet, trying to make the bet that these Republicans are ultimately going to lay down.

I mean, this is the honey badger transition. Honey badger don't give a "F." And -- and it's kind of interesting to see Trump be so decisive and wield that influence and that power the way that he is. Remember, the first transition, you know, was a little shaky.

COATES: Yeah.

JENNINGS: And -- and -- and the kinds of ways he ended up accepting certain kinds of people, none of that exists now.

COATES: Yeah.

JENNINGS: It is a fully confident Trump, that he can pick these fights and win. I don't know if he's right in this case, but that's what's happening.

COATES: Well, people believe he would be emboldened and empowered, not only because he has already been the president of the United States, but he has sort of bucked the system of listening to the people who told him what ought to be and has taken a different course.

But what about what congresswoman, you know, did just told us just now and the idea of, well, maybe this is something about dangling this shiny object, and there's something in the periphery, or the idea of, to Scott's point, this is the hardest of them, so maybe you have a compromise later and say, okay, not him, but the other two, fine?

NAYYERA HAQ, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, it could be a two for one, right? He could be doing a solid for Matt Gaetz, who certainly ousted a speaker that Trump was having personal challenges with in his own agenda. And, as well, you know, if -- if Gaetz does make it through, this is somebody who'd be deeply loyal, politically loyal, and use the law towards Trump's benefit.

This would no longer be a Department of Justice that is about rule of law or about a series of case studies and case law precedents. It would be about what does Donald Trump want the law to say and to do to protect him rather than the people.

COATES: But what about -- I mean -- and again, I was here sitting at this desk, I believe, in the wee small hours, but you may have been here with me, actually, when we saw the moment when McCarthy all of a sudden turned on a dime on the House floor trying to get that gavel -- Oh, well, here it is -- and confronts him. Let's play for a second what this looks like and what happened that moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEVIN MCCARTHY, FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER, UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES: And I'll give you the truth why I'm not speaker. Because one person, a member of Congress, wanted me to stop an ethics complaint because he slept with a 17-year-old. An ethics complaint that started before I ever became speaker. And that's illegal, and I'm not going to get in the middle. Did he do it or not? I don't know. But ethics is looking at it. There are other people in jail because of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: So, we saw the first part, then, of course, we saw the aftermath of him talking about it. He's really not in Congress anymore, lost that gavel. I wonder if he'll be a part of the administration. But Isaac, when you look at this, he, Gaetz, is well known for his theatrics.

EDWARD-ISAAC DOVERE, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: Yep.

COATES: He's well known for his battle with people like McCarthy. He's not the most loved member of that party. What will be the turnout in terms of support for him given that he is Trump's pick?

[23:15:01]

DOVERE: He is Trump's pick and like what we've seen, to your point, over the course of the and certainly the last part of the campaign, is Donald Trump seeing how far he could go. And he -- the -- the answer was as far as he wanted to. He's the president-elect. And this is now the latest thing that he's throwing down here, and to say to the Senate Republicans, are you going to go with it? Right? There are a lot of Senate Republicans, as Scott said, who -- enough who don't want to vote for Matt Gaetz to be confirmed as attorney general. And -- and will they go along? Right?

JENNINGS: They're different -- they're different than House members. They don't run every two years. Some of them will be retiring. Some of them just got elected. Some of them sort of exist in a plane where they, you know, they kind of make a living disagreeing with their own party sometimes. There are more than enough people in those votes that would drag him below the line.

Now, I personally think the president-elect deserves to build the government that he wants to build, and I think these people deserve a chance to compete in confirmation hearings. That doesn't guarantee you anything. But if this -- if they see this through, he's going to go up there and get a chance to make his case just like anyone else would.

I think this is my judgment, based on what I've heard tonight, is that the level of skepticism meeting this particular nomination is far higher than what you even heard about Gabbard or Hegseth or anyone else. So, this one, I think, exists in a different category.

DOVERE: Because it's Matt -- it's Matt Gaetz.

HAQ: And it's also the Department of Justice.

DOVERE: Right.

HAQ: Let's talk about four faults (ph)- of Merrick Garland, he was a potential Supreme Court nominee. That's -- that's the type of understanding of the law --

COATES: He was a sitting appellate justice as well.

HAQ: -- and credibility within circuits of law. I mean, there's nobody from the legal community that's coming out saying Matt Gaetz is the one I want. I remember when the big scandal was White House general counsel. George Bush potentially nominating his White House general counsel to be on the Supreme Court. Everyone was horrified by that. This -- this -- at least, she was a practicing lawyer.

COATES: Remind us, though, about the charges that are likely to come up. Obviously, the ethics complaint going away. He doesn't have jurisdiction. But remind us the accusations.

DOVERE: Well, it's -- it's all these accusations of partying and having sexual encounters with underaged women or underage girls, I guess. And what we don't know is whether this ethics report will somehow see the light of day anyway. It may. But if he comes up for a confirmation hearing, certainly, that -- that material would be part of the questions if -- if from nobody else from Democrats.

JENNINGS: Let me give you one other perspective on this as I look at the whole cadre of picks. I mean, I'm -- I'm very supportive of -- of most of it, frankly. But some of these are clear indications that Donald Trump is absorbing his mandate from this election as one of, I'm going to do exactly what the Washington people don't want me to do because that's what my voters and that's what my people are expecting. Some of these things are like absolute --

COATES: Was that the mandate --

JENNINGS: -- thumbing the nose at Washington D.C. insiders. That's what Hegseth is. That's what Gaetz is. And we may see some more of those. And I think -- I think Trump, and he's probably correctly interpreting this, he got the turnout that he did from people who are sick and tired of the expected Washington stuff. They want somebody to shake up, break up, and rampage through Washington D.C. These kinds of picks are those kinds of things.

COATES: But I wonder -- hold on. I do wonder, though. I hear the word "mandate" used all the time.

HAQ: Yeah.

COATES: Was the mandate actually a universal truth that you're talking about or is there room for disagreement about what they were actually electing individuals for? Because --

JENNINGS: Yeah.

COATES: -- the economy was what I thought was part of it, Nayyera.

HAQ: Well, the economy and how you're talking to people and connecting and meeting them where they're at and their -- you know, understanding their role in the world, all of that is a messaging thing. I highly doubt that anybody voted for Trump because they're like, yes, I need to have this cabinet pick. Right? They -- it's -- it's not the individuals.

DOVERE: They did vote. I mean, a lot of them voted because they feel like the way that Washington was working --

HAQ: And the most inside type of people are congressmen facing sex scandals, like, there -- there's nothing more D.C. than that.

JENNINGS: I don't know. I -- look, I think -- I think the way Trump is operating here is he's interpreting the results as, I don't have to do what all the Washington people would have me do. It's not going to be business as usual.

Now, this may upset the Washington people who want him to do business as usual. But, obviously, he is saying to everybody up here, look, I'm -- I'm just -- I'm not beholden to you, I'm beholden to my people. I don't have to run again. I'm the king of the Republican Party, and they didn't send me up here to go along to get along.

HAQ: So, I would say one caveat to that, that it's not just Washington people. I think it was a message to the establishment and doing business as it has always been done. I also think that most people don't necessarily track the value of what the Department of Justice offers to rule of law and democracy of the country. And, you know, we'll find out.

DOVERE: And, like, is it the most Washington thing to have a congressman who ducked out of Congress just in time to not have an ethics report against him to get appointed to a promotion? That that's part of what's going on here. But I think it is certainly true that Marco Rubio as secretary of state, that's a pick that any Republican president might have made.

JENNINGS: Absolutely.

DOVERE: But Matt Gaetz as attorney general, only Donald Trump would have tried those.

[23:20:00]

COATES: Well, see, I thought different doesn't do a whole lot. Different in terms of better, I thought, was what the mandate was, but we'll see. Thank you, everyone.

My next guest might be one of the people that an attorney general, Matt Gaetz, would go after. Former FBI Acting Director Andrew McCabe live with me right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: Imagine, if you will, being inside the Justice Department today when your potential new boss is announced. Actually, you don't have to imagine it. A source telling CNN -- quote -- "the shock is intense," noting there was an audible reaction as soon as the news was heard. Another saying there was -- quote -- "absolute disbelief" following the announcement.

I want to bring in former FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe. You'll remember he was terminated in 2018 by then-Attorney General Jeff Sessions. McCabe says he believes he was fired because he -- quote -- "opened a case against the president of the United States."

Andrew McCabe, good to see you. I am dying to know your reaction to all of this, frankly.

[23:24:58]

Steve Bannon saying that, on a podcast earlier this year, you should personally be worried. You should be worried, he said, if Trump takes the White House. Are you?

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: Well, I -- I don't worry about Steve Bannon. That's for sure. But I'll tell you, Laura --

COATES: Today (ph).

MCCABE: -- today, yeah. I am worried about the Department of Justice. I'm not worried about me. I'm worried about the people who work there, and I'm worried deeply about the work that they do. I'm worried about what this pick means. I think it's a very clear signal. In -- in a way, I think it answers a question that we've been debating throughout these many months of the campaign.

You know, half -- half the country was concerned about the things that Donald Trump was saying he wanted to do if he won back the White House, the revenge tour, politicizing the Department of Justice and turning it into a tool of his political revenge. Well, I think this pick is a very clear signal that that is exactly what he's going to do. And as always, we should take Donald Trump at his word. I think this pick is a part of the execution of that plan.

Matt Gaetz is a disruptor. He's someone who does not understand the department, doesn't respect the work that they do, doesn't respect the people who do the work there. He has made that very clear in his many statements, negative statements about the department. So, he's really, from my perspective, only going in for one reason, and that is to disrupt things.

COATES: He has been explicit about his views of DOJ, about the FBI. I mean, you -- you didn't just serve under one attorney general. You've been under every attorneys general. What was your initial reaction knowing that he'd be the pick, and what you think the department and the FBI, frankly, will believe based on his nomination alone?

MCCABE: Yeah. So, I served and actually interacted pretty closely with five different attorneys general, all very different people. You know, people -- some of whom I agreed with on some policy issues or case or operational issues, some of them I didn't. But I have to say that each one of them brought an incredible breadth of experience and skill and knowledge of the law to the job and a deep respect for the mission and the people of the department.

You can't say any of that about this pick. Matt Gaetz is wholly unqualified for this job. He is, as you mentioned, someone who has repeatedly attacked the department and the FBI. He has made statements about the fact that they should be obliterated or at least defunded. He has been a recent subject of investigation, which should raise other questions about his fitness to serve. So, it's -- he's really the antithesis of anyone who should be considered for that role.

And I'm not saying that because he's a hard-right conservative or he's some other political stripe. That's not a standard for who -- who would be or might be a good attorney general, but a level of proficiency, of knowledge, of decency and of character. Those are the sorts of things we should be looking for. None of those are, you know, present in this candidate.

COATES: Precisely what a confirmation hearing is supposed to evaluate and look at. That's forthcoming. Matt Gaetz is very loyal to Trump. What is your prediction for how he would deal with what he believes are Trump's enemies?

MCCABE: I think he'll deal with them in exactly the way that Donald Trump tells him to deal with them. Matt Gaetz is there to execute or would be there if he's confirmed to execute Donald Trump's wishes. Not to ensure that the president understands and abides by the law, not to oversee the vast criminal investigative role of the department and the FBI, not to protect the national security of the United States, but rather just to be there as Donald Trump's tool.

And, you know, there's -- there's something, I think, worth mentioning here, Laura, about the national security role as well. Whether -- considering whether or not you think Matt Gaetz is qualified for that role, put aside for a minute the exposure to all the information, the secrets, the things that people think about, I think, firsthand, from my perspective, from many, many, many hours in policy meetings in the White House, you see that the attorney general is the linchpin of some of the most monumental national security decisions.

The role of the attorney general is to tell the rest of the cabinet members what is lawful, what is -- what is decent, what is moral, how to interpret the law, understand the scope of the president's powers, what falls within those -- those guidelines and what may be outside of it. And the idea that Matt Gaetz could fill that role is preposterous. He's a guy without even the most basic modicum of legal experience.

[23:30:00]

Nonetheless, the wisdom and experience that it takes to pull off that job.

COATES: We'll see if the senators agree with you. Andrew McCabe, thank you so much.

MCCABE: Thanks, Laura.

COATES: Well, this may sound like the political version of "The Avengers." Democratic governors assembling and uniting to push back against Donald Trump's expected agenda. The two leading the charge, Governor JB Pritzker and Governor Jared Polis, both with me next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: From Trump 2.0 to the resistance 2.0. Tonight, Democrats are laying out how they plan to challenge a second Trump administration. States frequently took the first administration to court -- we remember all that -- starting just days after Trump took office. Democratic-led states sued him over the ban on people arriving from predominantly Muslim countries.

[23:35:02]

This time around, the governors of Illinois and Colorado are forming a new coalition, GSD, Governors Safeguarding Democracy. Their goal? Quote -- "To fortify democratic institutions in the states and ensure the rule of law serves all people."

Joining me now, Democratic Governor Jared Polis of Colorado and Democratic Governor JB Pritzker of Illinois. Governors, thank you for joining tonight. I'll begin with you, Governor Pritzker. I have to get your initial take on this A.G. nomination and nominee of Matt Gaetz becoming the attorney general. What's your reaction?

GOV. JB PRITZKER (D-IL): Well, I have to say it's almost disgraceful. This is somebody who, you know, has frankly publicly lied. He's somebody who people do not have faith in. Remember, the job of an attorney general is to make judgment calls and advise the president on what's legal. And so, to have a guy who's frankly a politicized version of an attorney general would be terrible for preserving democracy, which is something that, as you know, Jared and I are working very hard with other governors to do.

COATES: Governor Polis, on that point, when you two are teaming up to defend democratic institutions, and I -- I wonder, when you look at these incoming Trump administration cabinet members, potentially, what do you identify as the biggest threat of his administration more broadly?

GOV. JARED POLIS (D-CO): Well, look, I mean, you see a mixed bag. You see good, the bad, and the other. I mean, I was happy to see somebody in Marco Rubio's -- Rubio's caliber elevated for secretary of state. The secretary of defense is just one of those, what is that ones.

And then Matt Gaetz is in that other category, and that's just out of left field. I knew Matt Gaetz in Congress. I like the guy personally. I got along with him. But what a -- what a bizarre pick.

And it undermines the importance of the governors and the states in protecting our democracy because we truly don't know what to expect from any administration but particularly this one.

And we want to make sure that the American people can be certain that the elections are safe, that the separation of the courts and powers is safe, and that governors exert the powers that we have as states to make sure that we can protect freedoms and make sure that no federal government can get in the way of our constitutional rights.

COATES: Speaking of that, one big concern throughout the election and, of course, still now has been the issue of immigration. Both of your states have grappled with this issue. Governor Pritzker, Trump's choice for border czar, Tom Homan, says that he'll go after illegal immigrants everywhere, sending two ICE agents to those states that don't cooperate, and he told Democratic governors to -- quote -- "get the hell out of the way" -- unquote. What's your response?

PRITZKER: Well, it looks like they're planning to do things that are, frankly, against federal law. You heard today or yesterday that they're thinking about using red state national guard to go into blue states to raid restaurants and places of business --

COATES: Hmm.

PRITZKER: -- to try to take people away. The truth is that there's no chance that that is legal. We're going to defend ourselves against that. It's something that governors across the country would agree with me about. And so, we've got a lot to defend against.

And this issue of immigration, look, we can all have discussions about what comprehensive immigration reform ought to look like, what border security ought to look like, but what we shouldn't be doing is threatening people, many people who've been here for decades. They've been paying taxes and working. They -- they live peacefully. They're not committing crimes. We need to safeguard them. And, obviously, when it comes to violent crime, if there's somebody who's undocumented and committing a violent crime, we ought to hold them accountable and, frankly, we ought to turn them over to the feds.

COATES: Governor Polis, Trump singled out Aurora, Colorado, claiming it had been overrun by migrants. We've spoken to the mayor, who confirmed that was not indeed the case. But this proliferated as a -- as a conversation. How will your state respond to an influx of ICE agents?

POLIS: Well, again, you know, as Governor Pritzker said, it depends what they do when they get here. If they want to help our law enforcement arrest and deport criminals, and -- and that includes criminals who are Americans or criminals who are foreign-born and need to be deported, we are excited to help them because one of my goals as governor is to make Colorado one of the 10 safest state states. We've invested in police and law enforcement to do that, and we value our federal partnerships with ICE and the FBI.

If what they do instead is -- is go into schools and, you know, go after dreamers and hardworking Coloradans, who are important part of our agriculture industry, our construction industry, then, no, of course, we're not going help them in any way because they're hurting our economy, they're hurting our neighbors, and they're hurting the American people.

[23:40:02]

COATES: When you look at this, of course -- I mean, you've heard from Kate Bedingfield, who is a former Biden White House communications director. She's also a CNN commentator. She is warning Democrats about reflexively -- reflexively fighting Trump's policies. In fact, listen to what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KATE BEDINGFIELD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR UNDER PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN: I think for Democratic governors to knee-jerk, take a position of, you know, we're going to fight this, is -- is not smart. I do -- I think Democratic governors need to be responsive to what people said on Tuesday. That does not mean they need to wholeheartedly embrace family separation and mass deportation.

But the Democrats put forward a very aggressive border bill, by the way, in the last year that any Democratic governor would be smart, I think, to embrace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Well, let me ask both of you to respond quickly to that. Governor Pritzker, do you agree with the idea that this might be knee- jerk or that it would not be smart for the voters to think of this? PRITZKER: Well, knee-jerk reaction, absolutely agree. There shouldn't be. That's not what this is. This is about governors being able to talk to one another, you know, in a -- an organization where we can share interesting and new ideas about how to push back on policies that, you know, we think may be coming. If they don't come, great.

But we've already heard some very strange things out of this administration. And we know that we're going to have to -- they're going to dismantle public health. Think about this: This is the president we know, who probably caused a half a million deaths because of his inaction in the pandemic. Now, what happens if something happens again and he's getting rid of all of the federal support related to that?

We need to protect ourselves. So, what ideas do each of us have that we could share with one another to protect our people and our states? That's really what this GSD is all about.

COATES: Obviously, both -- both of you are here today. Governor Polis, is there a sense that there is widespread interest among other governors in this nation to join in this endeavor?

POLIS: Look, we look forward to working with the next administration however we can. And, again, if there's a constructive policy to help us track down and deport aliens who've committed crimes, we're on board. Right? If there's permitting reform to open up the energy economy and assist with renewable energy and transmission, we're excited to work with the Trump administration just as we were with the Biden administration.

But at the same time, it's important that we collaborate as governors to protect the people that we're sworn to represent. In the same election in Colorado, that Kamala Harris won our state, Donald Trump won the presidency, Colorado voters put the right to choose into our state constitution reproductive health decisions for women. They also eliminated the definition of marriages between a man and a woman in our state constitution.

When I took office, I swore to defend the Colorado constitution, and that means protect a woman's right to choose, protect the right to marry who you love against any threat, whether it comes from the federal government or whether it comes from the courts or anybody else, because it's part of our state constitution and what our what Coloradans want.

COATES: Governor Pritzker, I asked Congressman Dean Phillips who the leader of the Democratic Party was now, and his answer to me was, we really don't know. Do you see the governors now as, well, the collective leaders?

PRITZKER: I do see many of the governors as people who are leading the party and have been. And, look, I -- you know, I want to echo something that Governor Polis said. We also had an election where Kamala Harris won in our state. But interestingly, Donald Trump cut that margin in half, as compared to Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden. And the result, though, a down ballot was not what you would expect. We actually elected more Democrats all across the state of Illinois. I mentioned that because, you know, we -- look, we want to work together with this White House. But they also need to respect that each of our states has different goals, ideas that they should be working with us on economic growth, jobs. Those are things that actually we've been pretty good at in the last year or two, revving up our economic growth.

But I -- I think that we all need to focus on how we're going to get from here to there. It's the Democratic leaders in the governor's offices across the country that have really been putting forward really solid, you know, policies that I think the broader Democratic Party should continue to follow.

But we have great policies. I just want to make this point: We have great policies. I don't think that the messaging in this last election reflected how good the policies are.

COATES: Governor Polis, last question. Do you -- will the two of you, Governor Pritzker and you, still be friends in 2028 should you run against each other for some open office?

[23:45:03]

POLIS: Well, you just had to ask that, Laura.

(LAUGHTER)

Look, I've known JB for many years. I have so many friends who are governors. I'm just focused on doing what I can here. And frankly, governors safeguarding democracy will enhance the ability of all the governors who partake.

We welcome our Republican colleagues to join as well in making sure our democracy is there to have a free and fair election in 2028, to have a free and fair election in the future. That's what's important more than any other issue, is to make sure that we can continue to grow our democracy in the United States of America.

COATES: Governor Pritzker nodded along with you. Governor Polis, Governor Pritzker, thank you both.

PRITZKER: Thanks, Laura.

COATES: Up next, her supporters say she'll be great as the director of National Intelligence. Her critics call her a national security risk. So, how did Tulsi Gabbard get here? That conversation is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: All right, in the head-spinning day that is Wednesday, one of Donald Trump's cabinet picks may have been overshadowed. Tulsi Gabbard, the Democrat turned Republican, is Trump's choice to be the next director of National Intelligence.

Now, as a Democrat, she was elected to represent Hawaii in Congress back in 2012, the first female combat veteran ever elected to the House. Four years later, meeting with Donald Trump, spurring questions about her political future, running for the Democratic presidential nomination, of course, in 2019. And today, five years later, she says she hasn't recognized today's Democratic Party, and she joined the GOP just last month.

CNN senior reporter Isaac Dovere is back with me now. And you have profiled her before, in fact. Talk about her evolution from Democratic congresswoman and, of course, candidate for president, to now possibly serving in a Trump administration.

DOVERE: It has been a very strange trip. When she got into Congress, there was -- not only was she a new rising star Democratic member of the House, but they made her a vice chair of the DNC. And then, she grew into this presence. Then she started going on Fox News and criticizing the Obama administration and Obama's second term.

And then when she ran for president, it was this really strange campaign in terms of who she's reaching out to. A lot of people that I think were in the last year feeling in touch with the RFK campaign. But it was like Bernie Sanders types, some peaceniks, some conspiracy- minded people, I would hear, at her events. Lots of that sort of stuff going on. And she played into it with all of them and would say that all she was concerned about was stopping the wars and getting peace and all that.

But meanwhile, she had already gone to meet with Bashar al-Assad and disavowed or cast out, I guess, on Syria's role in gassing their own citizens. So, it's -- it's a bizarre mix of things that you get with Tulsi Gabbard.

COATES: I mean, she grabbed a lot of attention of her views about Russia and foreign policy, by the way, and her stance is on foreign policy. And when Russia actually invaded Ukraine, I'll remind people this is two years ago, more than almost two years ago now, she posted on X that that war could have been prevented or avoided if Biden and NATO acknowledged Russia's -- quote -- "legitimate security concerns" -- unquote -- about Ukraine joining the group. How will the intel community view those statements?

DOVERE: Well, it's not just that. She also tweeted about the biolabs that were around Ukraine, which is propaganda that started in Moscow. Right? So, this is someone who, at least in her pre-director of National Intelligence life, was buying into conspiracy theories and propaganda that were being produced by Russia.

COATES: So, is Russia like this appointment?

DOVERE: Let Russia speak for itself, but it seems like that throughout her last five or six years, there has been a real interest you can see among the Russia state media outlets in Tulsi Gabbard. When she was running for president in 2019, there were -- there were articles about her candidacy all the time. Not a lot of people were paying attention to her candidacy. RT, the Russia, the TV station, others were.

I remember asking her campaign about it at the time and asking her about it at the time. They said, oh, I don't know what this is, I don't know why they're interested in us. But, clearly, Russia sees something in Tulsi Gabbard that they find interesting.

COATES: What could it be? We'll have to wait and see. I'm glad you have that profile. I'm glad you're here. Isaac, thank you so much.

Up next, in case you missed it, new testimony under oath that sounds straight out of the X Files.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: So, in case you missed it, Peanut the Squirrel might have died for nothing. Now, if you're asking, Laura, Peanut the Squirrel, what are you talking about? Well, let me remind you. On October 30th, the pet squirrel, who was also Instagram famous, was seized from an Upstate New Yorker's home after complaints were filed. It took on a whole political life of its own.

Now, during the seizure, the squirrel bit the hand of a wildlife biologist through two pairs of gloves. That incident necessitated rabies testing, which apparently can only be done on a dead animal. So, they euthanized him.

But today, we got the results from the rabies test. Apparently, he did not even have rabies. This is starting a whole different rabbit hole for people.

Also, today, Kansas City Chief star Patrick Mahomes speaking out about the burglaries of both his and Travis Kelce's homes. Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PATRICK MAHOMES, QUARTERBACK, KANSAS CITY CHIEFS: Obviously, it's -- it's frustrating. It's disappointing. But -- I mean, I can't get into too many of the details because the investigation is still ongoing. But, obviously, something that you don't want to happen to really anybody but, obviously, yourself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Authorities say $20,000 in cash was taken from one of their homes. Kelce has not commented. Thankfully, no injuries were reported.

And finally, a former Department of Defense official, Luis Elizondo, testifying under oath today before Congress that -- quote -- "We are not alone in the cosmos." They didn't stop there. He also said the U.S. and some of our adversaries are actually in possession of unidentified potentially alien technology. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: Has the government conducted secret UAP crash retrieval programs? Yes or no?

LUIS ELIZONDO, FORMER DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE OFFICIAL: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Okay. Were they designed to identify and reverse engineer alien craft? Yes or no?

ELIZONDO: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Elizondo went on to say that some of those UAPs he mentioned are -- quote -- "monitoring sensitive military installations around the globe." You're leaning (ph) in now, aren't you?

[00:00:00]

Thanks for watching. "Anderson Cooper 360" is next.