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Laura Coates Live
Potential Break in Infamous "D.B. Cooper" Mystery; Zuckerberg Meets Trump In Mar-A-Lago; The DOGE List: Elon Musk Targets Government Workers By Name; Poll: Majority Don't Want To Talk Politics This Thanksgiving; Laura Coates Interviews Jaleel White. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired November 27, 2024 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00]
LANCE TROVER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Hope you're not watching out --
AUDIE CORNISH, CNN HOST AND CORRESPONDENT, PODCAST HOST: Well, where are you from?
(LAUGHTER)
COLEMAN HUGHES, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, CONTRIBUTOR AT THE FREE PRESS, PODCAST HOST: No turkey, no oysters.
CORNISH: Maybe you're thinking stuffing?
TROVER: Yes, stuffing, of course.
CORNISH: Yeah, the whole stuffing dressing term but, yeah, I guess no on the oysters.
TROVER: I'm no on the oyster.
CORNISH: All right.
PATRICK MCENROE, FORMER PROFESSIONAL TENNIS PLAYER: My turkey is brining as we speak.
CORNISH: Good.
MCENROE: Getting ready.
GEOFF DUNCAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER GEORGIA LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR: Maybe I should try your turkey.
UNKNOWN: I'll try. I'll bring you some.
DUNCAN: Okay.
CORNISH: Yeah. To Lance's stepfamily, it's all him.
(LAUGHTER)
Happy Thanksgiving, everyone. Thank you for being here, and thank you for watching "NewsNight." Please stay with us. You can also listen to more conversation with me. My podcast is called "The Assignment," and you can get that wherever you get your podcast. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Tonight, a friend request from Mark Zuckerberg to one Donald Trump. The two meeting in person down in Mar-a-Lago. So, what is this all about? Plus, the other billionaire, Elon Musk, putting federal workers on edge tonight after he publicly named some employees that he wants to fire, apparently. Is this how DOGE is going to work? And later, a trip down memory lane, the days of "Family Matters." Guess who's here? Steve Urkel AKA Stefan Urkel and Jaleel White join me for a special conversation you will not want to miss. Tonight on "Laura Coates Live."
Good evening. We're going to get to all of those stories in just a moment, but we are going to begin tonight with a potential break in one of the greatest mysteries in all of American history. I'm talking about the hunt for the true identity of D.B. Cooper. Now he is the infamous airplane hijacker who jumped out of a plane back in 1971 with $200,000 in cash never to be seen again. His identity is a mystery to this very day. But tonight, my next guest says that he has found that parachute that D.B. Cooper used, and that it could actually end the mystery once and for all.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAN GRYDER, RETIRED PILOT AND YOUTUBER: We just solved it. Literally. Literally.
(LAUGHTER)
Literally. This -- this is -- this is the rig because they know what rig he used when he jumped that night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Now he says it belonged to a man named Richard McCoy, Jr. Now look at the side-by-side comparison. The parachute was found on the McCoy family property about two years ago. Now he has always been a rumored longtime suspect and was killed in 1974 after pulling off a similar heist but there has never been any proof linking him. Now bits of money have been recovered in the past. There have been literally hundreds of tips and leads over the years that have gone exactly nowhere.
But according to my next guest, his discovery of the parachute caught the attention of the FBI, who then visited the home and took the parachute into custody. Now we asked the FBI about this, and they wouldn't confirm nor deny. Hmm. They would only point us to a 2016 statement that basically says they've stopped wasting resources on this because they've gotten nowhere.
But they say something very interesting at the end of that 2016 statement. Quote -- "Although the FBI will no longer actively investigate this case, should specific physical evidence emerge -- related specifically to the parachutes or the money taken by the hijacker -- individuals with those materials are asked to contact their local FBI field office."
Well, joining me now is the man who helped uncover the parachute, Dan Gryder. He is a retired pilot, a YouTuber, and a D.B. Cooper sleuth. Dan, great to have you here tonight. Tell me about how you found that piece of evidence and why you believe that that belonged to D.B. Cooper, who you believe is actually Richard McCoy, Jr.
GRYDER: That's correct. Hi, Laura. Thanks for having me on. Yes, we found that parachute. It was the description of the parachute that was used that night was very, very specific and that it was modified. So, all these years, for 20 years, I've been looking for this green military highly-modified parachute, and when we stumbled upon it by accident, I pulled it out and I took one look at it, and I could instantly see the modifications.
COATES: But what were these modifications? How could you recognize, say, one parachute from another?
GRYDER: Well, in the parachuting world, it's -- it's very easy to tell. You take one look at where the ripcord housing is and -- and all the modifications that were done to the front side of that. I knew -- I knew what I was looking for when I pulled that out of there and it -- it was -- it matched exactly. On first glance, I already knew this -- this is it. It was found in McCoy's mother's possessions deep in her storage with all of her prized possessions. She was a grandmother not related to aviation or skydiving, and she had the parachute, the canopy, his log book.
[23:05:03]
She had all that stuff tucked away in her private possessions that hadn't been seen for 53 years.
COATES: That's unbelievable to think about. And the modifications, I would assume, would have facilitated the ability to do the very highest that people have been fascinated with. But you also say that the FBI asked for a DNA sample from one of McCoy's children. What are they going to do with that?
GRYDER: Yes. Well, you know, I've been tracking this thing for almost 20 years. And over that 20 years, the McCoy children have never come out. They've never spoken to me. I tried like crazy to get these kids to talk to me, and they would not talk to me until both their mother and their grandmother died. Their mother, Karen McCoy, was an accomplice in both hijackings.
And what most people don't know is that there were actually two hijackings. There was a first one, the D.B. Cooper one. And then the same guy, Richard Floyd McCoy, he went back and did the exact same thing five months later, April of '72. It's the same guy.
But none of the kids would ever talk to me about this until they were both dead, and then they felt relieved that their mother was no longer in danger of going to prison as an accomplice in the D.B. Cooper heist. COATES: That's incredible to think about, that they may have, according to you, believe that their family was somehow connected to any of this. There was not a charge for the mother, I understand. But you say McCoy's family, they also found a log book. What was in that?
GRYDER: The log book was a parachute jump log book. It showed 39 previous military static line jumps accomplished by McCoy in the military. He served two terms in Vietnam. He was a helicopter pilot, a fixed wing pilot, and a military-trained jumper.
But the log book showed eight practice jumps leading up to the D.B. Cooper jump, and then nothing. This was his first free fall parachute jump, civilian-style log book. So, he logged 39 previous static line jumps, and then eight practice free fall jumps in -- in anticipation of doing this hijacking, and then nothing until right before April '72. He went back and did one more practice jump prior to his April '72 parachute jump, and he logged that one.
All those jumps are in there. They're -- they're signed, they're in his ink, they're -- they're symmetrical. Everything matches. Larry Patterson's (ph) logbook matches Richard Floyd McCoy's logbook. They're a perfect match.
COATES: Wow. And what would have given the children an indication that either of their parents, they believe, to have been involved in this?
GRYDER: Well, they knew. They grew up with this deep family secret. This is one thing that the kids will tell you. They're not giving any interviews right now. But -- but they -- they will -- if they could, they would tell you. They're not -- they're not talking, and they've lived a lifetime of knowing that they cannot talk about this.
COATES: Hmm.
GRYDER: That -- that was their family mantra. They could not talk about what their mom and dad did. Their mom and dad were both complicit in both hijackings, and they knew it.
COATES: Wow. I mean, you say that the FBI contacted you after -- after you released your evidence video on YouTube. I got to know what that was like, talking to them and the fact that they were leaning in and intrigued by what you found after all these years.
GRYDER: Well, the FBI did call. You know, it's interesting. We've never contacted any media, we've never contacted any authority, and we have never contacted any FBI in any way. The FBI contacted us after watching my two YouTube videos. They were convinced, and they wanted to see what I had found. They knew specifically exactly what they were looking for.
They told us upfront, we're going to look at it, we're going to meet with you, we'll meet with you at your location under your specifications. If it's not what we're looking for, we'll give it back in seven days, because we know exactly what we're looking for. That has been a year ago. COATES: So, I'm led to believe that perhaps they are going to keep it in custody because they believe that you're on to something? Maybe everything?
GRYDER: They're keeping it in custody because of the DNA. The FBI cannot go by circumstantial evidence, they're going to go by a DNA link, and they're trying -- they're trying their hardest to make a solid DNA link between all the artifacts that will tie Richard Floyd McCoy. That's the only way they can close it, with a solid DNA lock. They're going to keep this. Everything that I found is at Quantico, the FBI laboratory. Everything I found is in one storage location at Quantico right now, and their efforts are purely DNA-related.
COATES: Wow. Dan Gryder, this feels like a movie that I want to see, and yet it could be the solution to the mystery that everyone has been watching since the 70s. Thank you so much for joining us.
GRYDER: Thank you.
COATES: Let's discuss this more with journalist and author Geoffrey Gray. He literally wrote the book on this very story. It's called "Skyjack: The Hunt for D.B. Cooper." Geoffrey, good to see you. What do you think about this? I mean, could the parachute be the key?
Meghan Hays, JOURNALIST, AUTHOR: You know, great to be here, Laura. I got to say I've been spending, you know, a lot of my life on this case, and I am -- honestly, I'm blown away with this little discovery of the parachute.
[23:10:08]
COATES: Hmm.
GRAY: Not only that the parachute, but the FBI has come to take it and is actually, you know, is swabbing for DNA evidence of a -- of a relative of a suspect. It's major news in this case. You know, the D.B. Cooper case is American history. It is one of the great hunts, the great -- the one that has gotten away literally --
COATES: Uh-hmm.
GRAY: -- from investigators for decades. So, the fact that they've come and taken DNA evidence is a big deal in this case. It's probably one of the biggest deals in 10 years, maybe more. And I got to give it up for Dan, who did all the work. You know, he flew to all these places. He, you know, knocked on all those doors. He found this parachute in the back of a garage.
Now, however, a parachute found in the back of a garage or this tobacco barn, you know, of Richard McCoy does not quite connect all the way --
COATES: Uh-hmm.
GRAY: -- to unveiling and unmasking the hijacker. And so, there are still some serious questions about Richard McCoy, as I always said. COATES: What are the holes that you see? What do you -- what would you need, since we've had so much research on it, to connect the dots?
GRAY: Yes. So, what we all need is a DNA match. Okay? We need something definitive. The problem is that there's not great DNA material in the case. They're scant, if any, at all. They could maybe find some hairs or something on a parachute, but what -- what are they going to really match it to? The best evidence that was collected on that night, Thanksgiving, right, this -- this night many, many years ago --
COATES: Uh-hmm.
GRAY: -- were these cigarette butts, these Raleigh filter tips cigarette butts that were collected on the plane. But really, they did not find -- at least in my reporting. The FBI has sort of -- those butts have gone missing. So, there's like a tie, there's a couple other things, but not really any great material. Okay, DNA. So that's problem number one.
Problem number two, for fans of Richard McCoy who like him as a suspect, is that he doesn't look really close to what I -- eyewitnesses that night thought D.B. Cooper looked like.
COATES: Hmm.
GRAY: Okay? And this is the big deal for me and why I have McCoy doubts. I wrote, you know, about McCoy extensively in "Skyjack," my book. And he just -- he's got blue eyes. You know, people thought the hijacker had brown eyes. And another critical, critical point is that the best eyewitness described Cooper as having Marcelled hair, like kind of curly -- like curly -- tight, curly hair.
And Richard McCoy, look at his hair. He's got the flattest, thinnest, like kind of like Gympie's kind of hair. It's not even close to being curly. He doesn't look even close to it.
So, those -- those are the hard kind of questions that D.B. Cooper sleuths like myself and Dan look at when we look at a suspect like Richard McCoy.
COATES: You know, I actually spoke to another investigator who pointed to another possible person in interest, Vince Patterson -- Peterson, at one point in time, and had some of the concerns that you raised about trying to piece together this -- really, I wouldn't call it an age-old mystery, but it's pretty difficult to solve a crime like this all these years later when someone literally jumps out of an airplane and goes away with the money. I mean, this is fascinating to me, and I'm glad that you were here with us today, Geoffrey Gray. Thank you so much.
GRAY: Thank you.
COATES: Well, up next, another fascination. Another billionaire spotted at Donald Trump's Florida resort. Guess who it was? Him. Mark Zuckerberg. So, what was he doing there? We'll dive into the Mar-a- Lago social network next. Plus, the DOGE brothers, yeah, it's a phrase now, they get ready to head down to Capitol Hill as federal workers worry about being singled out by Elon Musk. And later, my conversation with Jaleel White on his career-defining role, Steve Urkel. So, I thought Urkel, Steve Urkel, all of them apply.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COATES: Well, looks like the Silicon Valley billionaires just keep on walking through Mar-a-Lago. Tonight, it was Mark Zuckerberg's turn. The Meta CEO went down there to meet with President-elect Donald Trump. A Meta spokesperson confirmed it, said it was Trump who invited Zuckerberg, and that Zuckerberg was -- quote -- "grateful" for the meeting. Just remember, Facebook booted Trump off the platform after January 6th before then reinstating his account in 2023. The two have had just called a rocky relationship, to say the least.
Well, joining me now is CNN political commentator and Republican strategist Brad Todd and former special assistant to President Biden, Meghan Hays. Glad to see you both this evening. Brad, they've had a bit of a contentious relationship, Trump and Zuckerberg. Trump actually once threatened to have him jailed, if we can all recall that. So, what's it all about? Why this meeting?
BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: One -- one phrase and two numbers -- three numbers. Section 230.
COATES: Hmm.
TODD: Social media giants currently are protected from liability suits based on Section 230. Media companies could be sued if they say things that have defamed other people, but social media companies cannot.
COATES: Because they're a platform that just basically is like, I'm hosting you, but not responsible for what you say.
TODD: That's correct. That's correct. However, Mark Zuckerberg and many other platforms began curating people, as we all know. It's deciding what stays on the platform, what doesn't.
A lot of Republicans in Congress, people like Josh Hawley, think that that means they should be liable. If you're making decisions about the content on your platform, that means you're not just neutrally hosting it, then you should not have that special liability protection. With Republicans in charge, both the White House and Congress, I think Section 230 reform is on the agenda.
[23:20:00]
Mark Zuckerberg, he doesn't want to be on the wrong side of that.
COATES: It's part of what the incoming FCC or nominee has focused on in previous writings as well, the idea of Section 230, and this accusation that there has been censorship by those who hold these platforms. So, what would stand out about Trump's having a friendly relationship with, say, Mark Zuckerberg? He already certainly has with Elon Musk.
MEGHAN HAYS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT BIDEN: I mean, I think this is a mutually beneficial relationship, right? Like, I think this is beneficial for Mark Zuckerberg, who go down there. They had a really tumultuous relationship in his first term. I think it's smart for him to go down there just for the reasons you're mentioning.
But this is a massive place of media for him. This is another way that Trump can reach voters where they are. But also, Zuckerberg needs him on his side. They need to get along. And so, I think this is trying to mend the relationship that they didn't have in his first term.
COATES: I mean, Congress has tried to do this, though. I mean, the idea of Trump talking to Mark Zuckerberg and that would solve the issue might be farcical to the members of Congress who've been trying to not only understand technology, but also to try to reform Section 230 and bring it up to sort of congressional code, so to speak.
Then you got people like Elon Musk, though, Brad, literally posting the -- and putting federal workers on notice on X, that he wants to fire some of them. He actually named, I think, four relatively unknown employees, examples of people that he actually does want to fire. Why would he do that as a way of promoting perhaps the DOGE department?
TODD: Well, of course, Elon Musk is not going to have any official authority in this White House. It's outside the government that DOGE is going to operate. I think, in the end --
COATES: True, though. He seems to have a lot of influence.
TODD: I think it's influence. Influence but not authority. Those are two different things.
COATES: Hmm.
TODD: I think he does have a lot of influence. And I think that in the end, the DOGE is going to end up focusing not on individual people, but on more structural reforms.
You know, for instance, we have spent $42 billion on Joe Biden's broadband program that hasn't signed anybody up on the internet. They spent tons to build 17 charging stations for electric vehicles. Those are the kind of wasteful government programs that are going to be either contracted out to providers who could do it or right sized or, you know, maybe even move some of those departments out of Washington. But I think it'll be macro picture --
COATES: Hmm.
TODD: -- before we -- before all said and done.
COATES: But macro would be what you said. The micro would be naming individuals. Why take that route then?
HAYS: I don't think he should. I think we've seen in the last 24 hours all of these people who have been swatted and who have had bomb threats at their house that are now public figure. I mean, they've been public figures that are being named. These are people who either are political appointees or civil servants that are being named in an unfair way.
They seem to have -- Elon Musk seems to have a vendetta or personal issues with them or what their offices are doing. So, it's -- it's not appropriate for him to be doing that. But I do agree that they should be looking at the government holistically and not on individual people.
COATES: By the way --
TODD: -- should be swatted. No one should be in the driveway. That should not happen.
HAYS: Oh, but that -- I mean, that is just about saying --
COATES: You know who agrees with that? Elon Musk thought that when they were tracking his flights. He was particularly perturbed about that and not having through privacy, which is -- it just -- it's befuddling to think of why he would do that.
But, also, you've got long time Trump ally, Steve Bannon, telling Puck's Peter Hamby that Musk was the deciding factor, the deciding factor in Trump's win, saying, to be brutally frank, it's the reason we won. Do you agree with that?
TODD: I agree with Steve Bannon on very little. But I -- I'm going to halfway agree with him on this. I think -- I think for -- that one of key demographics for Trump that he improved on versus last time was with younger men. And I think a lot of younger men see Elon Musk as a disruptor. And they see that he has changed a lot of industries that they find relevant to their life.
You know, John Fetterman, the senator from Pennsylvania, the Democrat, said that a lot of young men saw in him Tony Stark. You know, the Marvel hero. And so, Elon Musk is kind of that mysterious, you know, superhero person to some people. So, I think it was -- it was more important than endorsement than Oprah, and maybe a more important endorsement than Taylor Swift, in this presidential campaign. So, I might buy Steve Bannon's argument on this.
COATES: Well, I wonder why Robert Downey, Jr. then won't play him SNL --
(LAUGHTER)
-- if they ask David Harvey. I'm just -- just going out there for the Marvel people out there. Do you agree with how influential he is?
HAYS: I mean, I think he's more influential as a person showing up with Donald Trump on the stump than his money. But I do think that people notice when people put their money where their mouth is. And I think that Elon Musk did that. But I don't necessarily think his money helped the ground game. I mean, it's widely reported it was not a successful ground game, that he -- that it was not successful. But I do think him being on the stump with Trump helped him.
COATES: Because he resonates with younger people who see something --
HAYS: And see a disruptor. They see sort of a defiant attitude, they see people who are going to fight for them, and I think that was part of why Republicans won in this election.
COATES: Well, if only these ballots had, after the bubble, the word because, then we would know what the mandate was, and why people voted for people. Brad Todd, Meghan Hays, happy Thanksgiving eve. Thank you both for being here today.
All right, are you -- are you dreading politics coming up at the Thanksgiving table? And how should you handle those political hot takes? Well, Scott Jennings and Van Jones, they've got some pro tips for all of us.
[23:25:00]
Plus, the man you knew and loved at Steve Urkel, Jaleel White. He is my special guest tonight, him and that smile.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: I just wish you weren't a liar.
UNKNOWN: I wish you wouldn't call me a liar.
UNKNOWN: Don't raise your voice at me.
UNKNOWN: I am not raising my voice.
UNKNOWN: You do not talk to me like that.
UNKNOWN: You're angry.
UNKNOWN: You don't talk to me like that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Okay, so, that's what you want to avoid tomorrow at the Thanksgiving table, particularly if the topic of politics comes up. And let me tell you, this year, it's going to be extra tense given that we are just a few weeks removed from the election.
[23:30:00]
Now, the majority of you, according to this CBS News poll, want absolutely nothing to do with talking about politics tomorrow. Seventy-one percent say they're going to try to avoid it. Certainly, hear you on that. But 29% will actively try to talk about it. Twenty- nine percent? So, odds are even if you don't want to, there's going to be someone in your circle who is going to engage and eagerly. So, if that happens, we've got you covered tonight.
With advice from two of the best who do this for a living, CNN senior political commentators Scott Jennings and Van Jones. Gentlemen, I'm glad you're both here. We have put together a list that we're calling Thanksgiving topics you definitely don't want to talk about, but just might have to thanks to a crazy uncle or aunt. So, here's this kind of jeopardy category for you all.
I'll begin with you, Scott. Um, someone says Trump doesn't have a mandate to carry out what he wants to because he got under 50% of the popular vote. Give us the Jennings's response at that table.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRESIDNET TO PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Oh, please. Donald Trump has gotten more votes every time he has run for three straight elections. He won the national popular vote for the first time for Republicans since 2004, and his party won the House and the Senate. The American people have given him a mandate to govern. They want the Republican Party to take an action.
And you, sir, bringing this up to me at the table would be wise to tell your party, don't be obstructionist, because I don't think the American people are going to like it.
COATES: Oh, he is not getting the last crescent roll. All right, Van Jones, what's your take? Go ahead.
(LAUGHTER)
Hmm.
VAN JONES, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, first of all, yeah, he has a mandate, but for what? Because he says so many different things, and people who voted for him said, well, I'm voting for him because I believe he's going to do this, but not the nine other things he said he's going to do. So, all we know is that people didn't like the status quo.
He barely squeaked out, this win. We have -- we're two votes away from majority in the House. He did not get the popular vote. And it's clear he has a -- he has a mandate to not beat Joe Biden, but it's not clear he has a mandate to do, in fact. And a lot of stuff he's going to try to do when it comes to tariffs, his own base is going to reject. So, he has no mandate, and he should be the one who is careful and doesn't overreach.
COATES: Now, this is the moment when somebody fights over the canned cranberry sauce or the one that someone made homemade and everyone is like, yeah, sure, thank you for making it. Here's one for you, Van. Another candidate besides Kamala Harris would have won in that same 100-day stretch. What's your response?
JONES: Well, look, my response is we don't know, we'll never know, but to the extent that that's meant to be some kind of slight against Kamala Harris or some kind of put down of Kamala Harris, I think it's very important to remember that, you know, there are two numbers. Thirty-nine, which is the percent of approval for Joe Biden historically, catastrophically low, and 55, the number of people who wanted a new direction for America. So, she had to go up against those two numbers in 100 days, and she closed the gap in the swing states in a way that was very, very impressive.
And so, you know, we've never had a female president before, so she was trying to bang against a glass ceiling, maybe a concrete ceiling, and she acquitted herself very, very well. Anybody who's criticizing her now would have to say, if you'd asked six months ago, would she do as well as she did? You said, no way. She had Donald Trump scared right up to the very end. I think we should be proud of Kamala Harris.
COATES: Scott, I'm passing you the mashed potatoes proverbially here. Go ahead.
(LAUGHTER)
JENNINGS: Yeah. Well, I can see why you're down on Kamala Harris. I mean, she was one of the worst Democratic nominees of our lifetime. And presidential campaigns have a way of revealing the talent levels of the people who were in them. And I think we found the ceiling she bumped up against. If you hadn't remembered it from 2020 or 2019, she'd make it to 2020. Now, you really have seen it on display, and maybe she'll try it again in four years from now.
We'll never know if another Democrat could win, but I'll tell you this: Joe Biden and his administration and what Kamala Harris helped him do have tainted the Democratic Party, it delivered Republican majorities in Washington D.C., and now their party is in the wilderness trying to figure out what went wrong, and the American people are expecting Republicans to lead us out of this morass, this malaise, if you will, that we've been in for the last four years.
COATES: Something tells me that Scott is not making it to dessert at Van's house. I see his head shaking.
(LAUGHTER)
Someone is getting thrown out. I don't know whose house it is right now. But I'm a -- I'm a go on the next one right now because, whew, Scott, okay, this one is for you, and it's probably sure to come up. Trump is only about loyalty, himself, and is stacking his entire cabinet with yes men and yes women. Scott?
JENNINGS: I mean, honestly, are you -- are you complaining that a president of the United States is appointing people to his government that, oh, my gosh, supported his election campaign, that support his agenda?
[23:35:00]
That's unheard of. We've never heard of this before. That's crazy talk. Every president appoints people to the cabinet that supported them, that supports the things they want to do. I mean, my goodness gracious. Joe Biden ended up appointing Pete Buttigieg as secretary of transportation because he said, well, you know, I like trains, choo- choos are fun.
This is a great cabinet. This is great picks. These people are going to shake up Washington D.C, and so what if they're loyal to Donald Trump? That's what you -- that's what the American people voted for, a government that's going to follow Donald Trump's agenda that he ran on. That's what they voted for. That's how he won. The people should execute his agenda.
COATES: Van, you're choking on that wishbone right now. Go ahead and tell me --
(LAUGHTER)
-- what your reaction is, before you have to have the Heimlich maneuver, my friend. Go ahead.
JONES: It's -- it's a nightmare bone.
(LAUGHTER)
No wishes here. Listen, no, I 100% disagree on this because, yes, people wanted a change of direction. What they didn't want was a train wreck. They didn't want a clown car. They didn't want a circus next to, you know, a forest fire. Like, you can have people who support your agenda who are competent. You can have people support your agenda who are not literally punch lines.
When -- when you are -- when you are announcing people for your cabinet and people aren't sure if it's an episode of "The Onion" or if it's real, when you have to, like, triple check because these -- these things are so ludicrous, that is not what anybody voted for. Nobody voted to destroy America's government. And a lot of these picks have no qualification at all except loyalty, and that's the problem.
COATES: All right, well, I'm going to end on food because I feel like this might be the ties that bind or it might be just the nail in the coffin. I have two quick questions for both of you. Do we call it stuffing or dressing? And is it a pumpkin pie or sweet potato pie? Go, Van.
JONES: We call it stuffing.
COATES: Hmm.
JONES: And -- and for me, it's sweet potato pie.
COATES: And Scott? Is it dressing or stuffing?
JENNINGS: Well, I'm putting my -- I'm going to put -- I'm going to put my -- I'm going to put my pilgrim hat on because this is where -- this is the real debate and I --
JONES: Please don't. JENNINGS: I just want to say I'm going to -- we're not MAGA tonight. We're MAPA. We're going to make America pilgrim again. And I'm going to disagree with Van. I would -- I do like sweet potato pie. I would opt for the pumpkin pie. We do call it dressing. Some people in my family call it stubbing, but majority dressing. So, once again, Van and I cannot seem to find common ground at this Thanksgiving table, but I will send you your Pilgrim hat, my friend.
(LAUGHTER)
JONES: But if --
COATES: I don't think --
JONES: Please do. I need another trash can.
(LAUGHTER)
COATES: Oh, okay. Well, at this point, I say it has been so nice to have you both at my table. The door is over there. You can't stay for games. You can't. Van, Scott, who has brought not only a bucket of chicken on my show before, but now a Pilgrim hat --
JENNINGS: That's true.
COATES: -- I'm going to call you later. I'm going to call you later. Van, I'll shake my head with you. Van, Scott, thank you both so much. Happy Thanksgiving.
JENNINGS: Happy Thanksgiving.
JONES: Happy holidays, brother.
(LAUGHTER)
Happy holidays, brother.
JENNINGS: Thank you. See you, guys. Love you both.
COATES: Up next, a very special guest on this Thanksgiving eve, the one and only Jaleel White on growing up as Steve Urkel and, of course, Stefan Urkel. Look at Jaleel. I mean, I'm telling you, listen, growing up as Laura in the era of "Family Matters" --
JALEEL WHITE, ACTOR: Laura, sweet, thank you for having me on your show.
COATES: Please tell me you got that. Please tell -- that's my -- that's my new ringtone. Hold on a second. I got to do it. We'll be right back. Hold on. Nope. He said it. He said it. That's it. I'm done.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(LAUGHTER)
WHITE: Look what you did.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Steve Urkel AKA Jaleel White did that and so many more quotable moments and lovable chaos throughout the nine seasons of "Family Matters," one of the most iconic family sitcoms of the 90S.
And despite the fact that when Jaleel White first appeared as Steve Urkel, he was just supposed to be a one-off guest star, but he was an immediate hit. He helped boost the show's ratings. We all fell in love with him and his character. Here's his first scene with, hmm, Laura Winslow.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WHITE: Hi, Laura.
(LAUGHTER)
I hear you can't get a date for the dance. So, you want to go with me?
UNKNOWN: Well, take a hike, Urkel. She'd rather eat worms.
WHITE: Okay. Some other time then. Did I mention my dad knows Wayne Newton?
LAURA WINSLOW, ACTRESS: Make him go away.
UNKNOWN: Get out of here, goat face.
WHITE: Excuse me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
COATES: A number of times I've heard, Laura, my sweet, over my life. I'm Laura, and I definitely do not want you to go away. Jaleel White is here with me. His new memoir, "Growing Up Urkel," is out right now. I am so excited to have you here.
[23:45:00]
I have been such a fan of your work. In fact, my kids, 12 and 10, they also watch "Family Matters." They know you so much that my son was you for Halloween. WHITE: I love it.
COATES: Well, listen. I got to tell you, people underestimate the ability to be a comedic actor. I mean, really, to be able to do that at such a young age, to be able to be consistent. You started on "Family Matters" as Steve Urkel when you were just 12 years old. You were 21 when the show wrapped. This is a very formative period in your life. What was that like growing up as people -- they knew as Steve, but also Jaleel?
WHITE: You know, it was -- it was amazing. You know, the number one thing I like to share with people is, at least through the book, is that I attended public school the entire time --
COATES: Really?
WHITE: -- I was on that show. Yeah. The entire time, I was in public school. My mother was insistent. And it was a time before smartphones when you could somewhat get away with it. But it still didn't come without its drama. I kind of see my -- my maturation on the show in -- in chapters. You know, when you're in middle school, it suddenly makes you really popular at school. And when you're in high school, you know, you're still popular, but things are changing. Stefan saved my life. We could talk about that whenever you want to. But then by the time you get to college --
COATES: Oh, Stefan Urkel?
WHITE: Yeah.
(LAUGHTER)
COATES: We can talk about that. And when you came in for the cooling, you with baby face, yeah, we can we can talk about that.
WHITE: Yeah. But then when you finally get to college and, you know, you got the east-west rap beef (ph) going on and the image of a young Black man is changing in America, you know, it was -- it was weight on my shoulders during -- during my college years. But I survived those. And by the time my daughter got here, I was really able to appreciate the work that I've done.
COATES: Well, I want to talk about that because I've often wondered -- I mean, you are so -- to many people -- we're so synonymous with the character. It must have been hard for people to differentiate you as an actor from the real person. How did people treat you in your college days and beyond when you had probably been quite pigeonholed?
WHITE: You know, I -- that's the stereotypical reaction, and I respect it. But I've done over 400 episodes of episodic television --
COATES: Hmm.
WHITE: -- and, you know, much of that came after "Family Matters." It's a challenge for any actor, Laura, to move on from one sitcom or one well-known show to the next big opportunity that lands as big as that show. And it's tougher to do these days because not everybody is watching the same thing anymore.
COATES: I'm so glad you said that because I often think about that probably contributing to a lot of the division we have when we don't have those common threads. Like, we don't have everyone knowing the catchphrases. They don't have -- I make my kids watch all the shows I used to so they know that mommy is funny and know my catchphrases because they got to have some commonality. Their friends have no idea what they're talking about. But I want to play for everyone some of Steve Urkel's most famous catchphrases.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WHITE: Got me cheese.
UNKNOWN: I'm falling. I can't get up.
(LAUGHTER)
WHITE: Can I do that? Can I do that? Can I do that?
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: How do you feel when you watch yourself back at that age?
WHITE: It's -- you know, during pandemic, I actually spent some time watching all the episodes I wasn't in and picking out certain episodes that I just wanted to, you know, reconnect with. It's an out of body experience for me. It really is.
COATES: Hmm.
WHITE: You know, I tell everybody I don't hide it. It was paid schizophrenia. So, I really did create somebody who is very similar to me actually in a lot of awkward ways growing up but very different for me in mannerism. So --
COATES: How did you navigate the fact that -- I mean, obviously, you were not intended to be the star of the show, but you are, I think, one of the most recognizable figures from that show. There couldn't have been all wine and roses behind the scenes. You're right about that.
WHITE: Yeah, it wasn't always roses behind the scenes. And, you know, it was definitely bumpy in the beginning. I think that has been well documented. I don't like to beat up my former costars, though. We eventually really did become quite the family.
I talk about, you know, in the book also, when we got a chance to travel to Paris together as a -- as a -- as a cast. We're the only black show that has ever shot episodes in Europe, and I'm really, really proud of that. You know, it's -- it's like anything, man. Like, the Bulls won a lot of championships, but trust me, they didn't get along all the time. And -- but it's important that you look back fondly and with respect on the people that you worked with. COATES: Oh, I got to go back and watch "The Last Dance" again. Scottie, Michael. We'll see what's really going on there. I wonder, though, you mentioned the differentiation and how some things you resonated with and some things were like you were not. Did you ever feel like you were growing out of Steve Urkel?
WHITE: Oh, yes. See, to me, that's the more interesting story, the slow, inevitable, and obvious me growing out of the character, which I have to laugh at even myself.
[23:50:02]
You know -- I mean, I literally did the character from age 12 to 21. Stefan saved my life. You know, I really underestimated how much people needed to see Stefan Urkel, needed to see that I had -- I had more range than that. And it really, really did save my life. So --
(LAUGHTER)
COATES: I want to play for everyone to remind people, I always think about the white suit, Stefan Urkel. Listen to this.
WHITE: Hey.
(LAUGHTER)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WHITE: Steve. Steve who?
(APPLAUSE)
UNKNOWN: Steve Urkel.
WHITE: No, no, no. There is no Steve here. I'm Stefan, sweet thing.
(APPLAUSE)
Stefan or kiss (ph).
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: I love it. I remember watching this when this actually came out. I'm still smiling. Me and my friends talked about it the next day, Jaleel.
WHITE: Laura, that's a time that we will never be able to revisit again in American history because when you saw it, what did you do? You hopped on the phone and you start calling everybody. And guess what? All the phone lines lit up after that. It's so hard to create programming like that in this day and age that will trigger someone like yourself at your tender age, calling your friends to be, like, girl, are you watching this? COATES: But you said it saved your life. If -- you know, at that point, especially the timing of it and the, frankly, the stereotypes, some positive, others negative -- I mean, you went from being, you know, the noted nerd and genius to somebody who was smooth and had the debonair qualities. Where did that come from? Was that you initiating that because you wanted to show range or was that the network saying we got to see more?
WHITE: No. I can't even give the network credit. David Duclon, my former executive producer, and our writing staff, you know, they always saw more in me than I saw in myself. The highest compliment David ever paid to me as our head writer was, Jay, I can give you anything and you pull it off in four days of rehearsal.
COATES: Hmm.
WHITE: So, it was by the grace of God, really, that their own creative juices went in this direction, and ultimately, for a lot of women like yourself, you know, you got a chance to see the real me or something closer to the real me. I didn't even think it would be entertaining. So, you know, I'm happy to have been wrong.
COATES: You were wrong. It was very entertaining. Still is, Jaleel. Let me ask you though on this. It was considered a crossover success. Of course, both Black and white audiences loved it. At a time when you really had people almost having a segregated watching experience of the shows they selected and leaned into and appreciated, what was it like straddling that line, especially when the writers' room at that time was mostly white and male?
WHITE: You know, I think that's the thing that presented -- that presented the greatest obstacle for me going forward in my career. I was used to a white budget. I was used to a certain level of professionalism. I was used to a certain platform that was as big as ABC on an 8:00 on a Friday night.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
WHITE: And suddenly when that show was done, I -- you know, I kind of got reduced to a smaller platform and less budget. And, oh, you know, we're going to put you in an urban box. And it's, like, what does that mean when I've been able to do a show that translates all the way to Italy and Australia and Germany and Spain and France? And I'm like -- I'm looking at the checks coming from these places. So, suddenly, the bean counters are seeing my value differently.
COATES: What was that like going from, you know, having this TGIF experience to having to fight as an adult who's still very much into production, still an actor, still wanting to be a part of and so obviously a host now and continued success. What has it been like that transition post 21?
WHITE: It was a real, real, real, personal challenge that really forced me to look within to avoid being bitter and jay (ph). At the end of the day, I've been afforded an incredible life. I love inspiring people. And the thing I'm actually most proud of with "Family Matters" is how well the show has traveled around the globe.
So, I've just always known in my heart that God will continue to kick me back to that where I can affect people from all walks of life, no matter what color they are. Yeah. And that's a tough thing to pull off in TV these days where they just want to kind of keep you in a box with one, what's your target audience? I'm like, man, I don't have a target audience, man. That's not -- I'm here to affect people in the world.
[23:55:00]
COATES: That's a beautiful incentive, to continue to create art, and I appreciate that so much. I love it, and I'm so loved talking to you. The book is phenomenal. It's called "Growing Up."
WHITE: Thank you.
COATES: I did not spoil everything for everyone. It is a really great read, to get to know you in this way. Thank you.
WHITE: Laura, you rock.
(LAUGHTER)
COATES: Thanks for watching. Happy Thanksgiving to each and every one of you. "Anderson Cooper 360" is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
