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Laura Coates Live
Suspected CEO Killer Captured and Charged with Murder in New York; Daniel Penny Acquitted in Death of Jordan Neely. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired December 09, 2024 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00]
PETE HEGSETH, TRUMP DEFENSE SECRETARY NOMINEE, FORMER FOX AND FRIENDS WEEKEND HOST: It was fully investigated at the time years ago. And I was completely cleared. And that's why, Sean, you know what I look forward to? I'm looking forward to the FBI background check.
(LAUGHTER)
I look forward to the actual, under-oath conversations with senators as we go through the process because, again, this is what the left does, Sean. It's the anatomy of a smear.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AUDIE CORNISH, CNN HOST AND CORRESPONDENT, PODCAST HOST: I want to thank you all for being with us, for watching "NewsNight." You're now going to be treated to a special edition of "Laura Coates Live." That starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): The suspect in the killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO is now in custody.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): He has been identified as Luigi Nicolas Mangione.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): The suspect was in a McDonald's.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): My partner and I recognized him immediately.
DEREK SWOPE, DEPUTY CHIEF, ALTOONA POLICE DEPARTMENT: He became visibly nervous, kind of shaking.
BLITZER (voice-over): The note said -- quote -- "These parasites had it coming."
UNKNOWN (voice-over): An untraceable ghost gun put together with 3D printed parts.
BLITZER (voice-over): Luigi Mangione was valedictorian.
R.J. MARTIN, LIVED WITH LUIGI MANGIONE: Unfathomable, knowing the kind, you know, person that I saw and knew.
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST (voice-over): Leased to Pennsylvania with plenty of cash or weapons. What was next?
UNKNOWN (voice-over): Likely, there was more on his agenda that he wasn't done.
GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO (D-PA): He is no hero. Justice will be delivered in this case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: More than five long days after it began, the manhunt for the CEO killer is now over. But now that we know the man behind the mask, the investigation tonight seems to just be beginning. Good evening and welcome to a special edition of "Laura Coates Live."
Police say they have their man, captured inside of Central Pennsylvania McDonald's, of all places, on the very same day that his alleged victim, UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson, was laid to rest. Once again, our reporters, law enforcement analysts and profilers are live with me tonight for the next hour tracking every single part of this arrest and what happens next.
But first, we're learning a whole lot more about the Ivy Leaguer suspected of the crime. Right now, you're looking at a mugshot taken today. His name? Luigi Mangione. And just moments ago, New York prosecutors officially charged him with murder.
He is a 26-year-old whiz kid with an impressive education who had never seen the inside of a jail until tonight when he was arraigned near Altoona, Pennsylvania. That's where he was picked up by police probably after 9:00 this morning at a McDonald's that looks like, frankly, any other McDonald's. It's about 280 miles from the scene of the crime in New York City.
And we're told Mangione was just sitting there eating when a customer recognized him. That customer then told an employee who then called police. This is what Mangione showed them when they got there. It's a fake I.D. The same one police believe he used in New York City. And then this happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SWOPE: He had asked the suspect if he had been in New York City recently. And that really invoked a physical reaction from the suspect. He became visibly nervous, kind of shaking at that question. And he didn't really answer it directly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Well, you also have this gun and a suppressor. Now, it's a ghost gun, meaning it's untraceable. And police say it was made through 3D printing. And it lines up with the weapon that was used in the murder.
And then there's the evidence that's giving us the biggest clue in the suspect's motivation, a multi-page, handwritten manifesto that rants against the health care industry. It appears to reference UnitedHealthcare and suggests that violence is the answer. Among the lines -- quote -- "These parasites had it coming."
The allegations, let alone the manifesto, coming as a complete shock to those who knew Mangione's upbringing. He comes from a very prominent Baltimore family, was the high school valedictorian at one of the city's most prestigious private schools, went on to graduate from the University of Pennsylvania, and working as a software engineer. And if you ask his friends, they say they're stunned.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: It's unimaginable. I was roommates with him, friends. Hype, went to yoga. He, you know, did his best to be athletic and unfathomable, knowing the kind, you know, person that I saw and knew.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: The story only beginning tonight. Let's go to CNN's Brian Todd in Hollidaysburg, Pennsylvania where Luigi Mangione was arraigned today. Brian, we're hearing from the Mangione family for the very first time. What are they telling us?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right, Laura, we have this just in from the Mangione family, this statement issued by Nino Mangione, who is a cousin of the suspect. Nino Mangione is also, by the way, a state delegate in the state of Maryland.
[23:05:01]
The statement reads in part this: Quote -- "Our family is shocked and devastated by Luigi's arrest. We offer our prayers to the family of Brian Thompson. We ask people to pray for all involved. We are devastated by this news."
We've also been gathering some information about Luigi Mangione's past. We found out that he was valedictorian at his exclusive all-boys school, Gilman, in the area of Baltimore. That was in 2016. He graduated from the University of Pennsylvania, an Ivy League school, in 2020. His family owns a nursing home chain in Maryland and also a country club there. His cousin, as I mentioned, is a state legislator. So, a fairly prominent family he comes from in the state of Maryland in the Baltimore area.
Also, we have kind of pieced together some information about where he has resided over the past few years. Among the places where we have found out that he has lived are the states of Maryland, Pennsylvania, and Hawaii. Now, one of his roommates in the state of Hawaii, where he'd moved fairly recently, apparently to seek treatment for back pain, this gentleman named R.J. Martin was on CNN earlier tonight. Here's what he had to say about his experience with Luigi Mangione.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: I first interviewed him before he moved in. I remember he said he had a back issue and he was hoping to get stronger in Hawaii. So, he's always focused on trying. Um, when he first came, he went on a surf lesson with other members. And unfortunately, just as basic surf lesson, he was in bed for about a week. Um, we had to get a different bed for him that was more firm. And I know it was really traumatic and difficult. He mentioned, oh, I need to go back to see my doctor, and then I'm going to have to have to agree.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TODD: And again, to reiterate the charges faced by Luigi Mangione tonight, we just found out that in New York City, he is being charged with murder and also criminal possession of a firearm, among other charges in New York City. Now, here in Pennsylvania, he is facing forgery, criminal possession of a firearm charge, and a couple of other charges here in Pennsylvania. He is being held at a state prison in Huntingdon, Pennsylvania. Laura?
COATES: Brian, we know a little bit about his family and about from the roommate. But what about his online presence? Have you had information about that?
TODD: We do have some information about that, Laura. It's pretty interesting. He went on the website Goodreads, which is a website for book lovers, and he wrote about the Unabomber's manifesto, the Unabomber Ted Kaczynski, who has been in prison for those bombings that took place between 1978 and 1995, and his infamous manifesto that Kaczynski wrote.
Well, Luigi Mangione did write on the website Goodreads about Ted Kaczynski and his manifesto. Here's a quote from what Luigi Mangione wrote on that website. Quote -- and he's talking here about Ted Kaczynski. "He was a violent individual -- rightfully imprisoned -- who maimed innocent people. While these actions tend to be characterized as those of a crazy luddite, however, they are more accurately seen as those of an extreme political revolutionary."
Also, apparently, Laura, on that website, Goodreads, he had expressed interest in wanting to get and read more and more books about having to cope with back pain. Also, we believe that he sought books on mental illness and things like that. So, just kind of a hint on that part of his online persona.
We also have seen messages to him on social media from friends and others who were wondering before this shooting took place in Manhattan. They were saying to him that they had not seen him in a while, were wondering where he was, telling him that his family was also looking for him.
COATES: Brian, how many pieces of the jigsaw puzzle will this investigation lead? We're in the very beginning. Thank you so much. I want to bring in John Miller, CNN's chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst. He was also a former deputy commissioner for the NYPD. John, you and I were there on day one wondering how long it would take before they were able to discover this person's whereabouts, let alone the identity. Now, he has been captured on the day of the funeral, no less, and he has been charged with murder, among other counts in New York. What stands out to you?
MILLER: Well, what stands out to me is where he was captured, how he was captured, sitting in a back table in a McDonald's, noticed by a patron, called in by a waitress who pointed police to the back table, a man wearing a mask, sitting there immersed in a laptop, don't know what he was looking at in that laptop but, you know, he had this -- he had this backpack with these other items, the gun, the silencer, and this manifesto. And you wonder what was the next step here.
Here he is. He's not in New York. He's not at home. Police tell us he's moving between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh. And this manifesto refers to, you know, these parasites had to be dealt with in plural with one murder behind them. So, was there a plan to strike again against another victim?
[23:10:00]
Was it another corporate head or a hospital head or a health care head? Was there a plan? We don't know. But the way that manifesto was written is almost in a manner of resignation. It's addressed to authorities. And it seems to be written on the assumption that when it is read, he might either be in custody or maybe not alive.
COATES: Hmm.
MILLER: So, think they are still looking for where is he going, what was he doing.
COATES: Right. You know, John, he's sitting in front of a laptop. And he hand-writes a multi-page manifesto. That seems to be on his person as well, just thinking about what his mindset may have been like at that particular point in time.
The document itself, again, multi-page, handwritten. Again, access to and literally in front of a laptop when he is confronted by officers. What do we know about the contents of that document?
MILLER: So, that document is about sorry, I apologize if I caused any trauma or any strife, but this had to be done. You know, these parasites had it coming. And then he goes on to mention United, which we are, you know, led to believe is a reference to UnitedHealthcare, the company that his victim in New York City ran, and talking about its size, its incredible growth --
COATES: Hmm.
MILLER: -- and his claims that it is -- of its greed and how it is not treating its consumers or patients well. So, it's a bit of a rant in that manner. But he also, you know, mentions in the document that, you know, my electronics are fairly locked down, indicating to police that this --that this note is probably what you're going to get.
COATES: Hmm. A good point, especially thinking if he believes, as you say, he may have been resigned to capture and perhaps not even surviving that encounter. Having it out and in front, people to be able to readily access it, access is an interesting point here. But talk to me about what else he had or other evidence authorities may be used and getting to recover from him.
MILLER: Well, that's critically important to this arrest, which is he has the firearm. It is a 9-millimeter semi-automatic, which makes it normal in gun terms. But it's a ghost gun, which means it is a self- manufactured firearm. And what makes it even a touch more exotic is it appears that the low receiver, which is the bottom part of the gun where the handles attached, where most of the mechanics are, was manufactured by a 3D printer.
Now, we're talking about a guy who has got a master's degree in engineering. The top part, the slide, which you see pulled back in this photograph, seems to be purchased probably online. And the other piece you see is the magazine, which has six rounds in it. Now, that's a magazine that probably holds 12 or 14 rounds, depending on the particular model. But we also know that in the New York shooting, they recovered six rounds.
So, with the additional ammunition, that comes back to he had that gun, he had that gun loaded, and thank goodness for those police officers, he did not have that gun on his person. It was in this backpack as they approached.
COATES: John Miller, thank you so much. I want to bring in Josh Skule, who is a former FBI senior executive and president and CEO of Bow Wave, Eric Fenton, he's a former detective sergeant for the Metropolitan Police Department, and Katherine Schweit, she is a former FBI agent.
Look, you, guys, I have to -- we have to chew over what we've just learned because after five days, we now know this person has been captured. But the idea that it's a citizen, just a civilian in a McDonald's, who happens to see this person and says, I know this person, contact authorities, they come. What does it tell you that he was really in plain sight, out in the open?
JOSH SKULE, FORMER FBI SENIOR EXECUTIVE, PRESIDENT AND CEO OF BOW WAVE: Well, I didn't think he feared for getting caught. He was well- distance from New York City. He was -- Altoona is a little bit more rural. It's out there. Hollidaysburg, I'm familiar with it. It is not a well-populated area. But I also would point out that this is not the first time a crime of significance has been solved by common citizens. It happens routinely. And law enforcement needs the public's help.
COATES: It's a good point, especially the reason they want that image out there immediately. This was not kept that close to the vest in terms of his appearance, etcetera. They wanted the help.
Katherine, during the hearing today, the only time he spoke up, I found fascinating. I mean, when prosecutors argued he should not be granted bail because of his criminal sophistication, citing a bag that he had on his person that could block cell signals, he spoke up to say, no, I just bought it because it's waterproof. Of all the things to speak about --
KATHERINE SCHWEIT, FORMER FBI AGENT: Right.
COATES: -- that was the moment of contention? What does that mean?
SCHWEIT: Yeah, he's a little lost in minutiae.
[23:15:01]
But, you know, you can only hold somebody -- you know, as a former prosecutor, I'll say, obviously, you can only hold somebody if they are a flight risk or if they're a danger to themselves or others. He meets both criteria. So, the fact that he would even bring that up, it seems useless. I mean --
COATES: The minutiae of it is really fascinating. That's exactly where detectives have to go now, though, right?
ERIC FENTON, FORMER DETECTIVE SERGEANT, METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPARTMENT: Yes.
COATES: Thinking why that bag, why the backpack, why the manifesto? All the questions actually begin at this moment.
FENTON: Absolutely. Our investigation starts now, actually. Once he's arrested and charged, the investigation actually starts, I believe. And as stated earlier, the items, yeah, it appears that he wanted to do another crime. He is away, 280 miles. He could have gone farther --
COATES: Yeah.
FENTON: -- in the days that he had. So, I believe --
COATES: That is the fear of every law enforcement --
FENTON: Absolutely.
COATES: -- like getting him quick enough.
FENTON: Absolutely. And I think he had time to -- either he had another target or he had time enough to get away further from law enforcement.
COATES: Almost 300 miles away from the scene of the crime. They thought he left by bus, righ? They thought he came from one location. He ends up -- I think Pennsylvania is not that far away from New York compared to where he possibly could have gone through a bus, road or otherwise. Had the same fake I.D. on him? Initially cooperative. Now, not. What's that signal?
SKULE: Well, we don't know whether he was cooperative post arrest at all. And law enforcement appears to have spent a good amount of time with him before his initial appearance. We know that he was nervous when he was approached. So, initially, not combative. I don't know that he was cooperative. He had made mistakes, though. You know, he was giving them a fake I.D. for whatever reason. If he had given them his real I.D., they would have been able to match it to the hostile, which is where they matched that fake New Jersey license.
COATES: Which might suggest that he has not been following how closely this has been, according to the press. That was known, that he had a fake I.D. at that hostel.
SKULE: That is true.
COATES: He had the fake I.D. back.
SKULE: It is true. Now --
SCHWEIT: It would be surprising to think that he wasn't watching the news.
SKLUE: I would be surprised as well.
SCHWEIT: It would be very shocking to think that he's not watching the news.
FENTON: Agree.
SCHWEIT: He is all about information right now and getting his message out there.
COATES: And why is that so important to him? The message itself. Because that manifesto, I keep going back to the handwritten manifesto. He's in front of a laptop. He's not waiting to type it. He's not sending it. He has it on his person. As a prosecutor, what do you do with that?
SCHWEIT: Oh, it's gold. It's gold because it is handwritten. There's no question that he did it. It's his handwriting. You can match it. And also, it really -- when you handwrite something, it's emotion. You're writing with emotion. And when you're typing it and you're printing it out, him handwriting something, he has been traveling around for 15 days or more. He needs to handwrite. But who knows when that was written? It could have been written -- it could have written a month ago.
COATES: Yeah. And one point on this. When they approached, they asked him, have you been in New York City recently? That was the moment he began to shake. You're a homicide detective. Imagine what that moment would look like. Walk us through how that would feel.
FENTON: The body just starts moving uncontrollably. We can't stop those things. It just happens. So then at some point, that's your -- almost your admission to guilt. I'm the person that was in New York, I'm the person that did this, and what am I going to do next?
COATES: And you would lean in completely on that. Stand by. We have more to talk about this. Still ahead tonight, those who know Luigi Mangione reacting in shock today, shock, including my next guest, a high school classmate of the suspect who says this is all surreal.
And later, a former FBI profiler joins the conversation with his unique insights into the alleged shooter and the evidence. The monopoly money, the real money. And the big question tonight, was the gunman considering striking again? Tim Clemente, who helped break a D.C. sniper case, standing by with his perspective.
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[23:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COATES: Breaking tonight, friends and family of Luigi Mangione shocked to find out that he has been charged with the murder of UnitedHealthcare CEO, Brian Thompson. Joining me now is a former prep school classmate of Mangione, Freddie Leatherbury. Freddie, thank you for joining me. For you, you knew him in high school. When you saw his picture, when you heard he had been arrested for this crime, what was your reaction?
FREDDIE LEATHERBURY, WENT TO HIGH SCHOOL WITH LUIGI MANGIONE: Well, thanks for having me. I thought it was a joke at first, to be honest. I could not believe this based of everything that I knew about Luigi from sixth grade on through 12th grade. It was just so surreal to hear.
COATES: You've known him for that many years. He's -- frankly, he's only in his 20s right now. What was he like then? Tell me about him.
LEATHERBURY: Well, he was everything you could want in a high school student. He was smart. He was driven. He was sociable, athletic. He was in all kinds of clubs. Top of his class, of course, he was a valedictorian. So, he really had everything going for him. But he wasn't really snobby. He was humble. He was unassuming and easy to approach. I wasn't personally terribly close with him, but I knew a lot of people who were great friends with him. I was friendly with him at any given opportunity. He was a good kid.
COATES: And your school, relatively small compared to a lot of high schools. And thinking about an all-boys atmosphere, as well the idea of proximity, was he political back then? Did you ever hear about him having very strong stances, particularly discontent?
LEATHERBURY: You know, that was just not who Luigi was. He was a guy who could have a conversation with go with the flow. But you couldn't tell which way he would vote or anything like that.
COATES: Was he an athlete and did he have or suffer from injuries that you could recall?
LEATHERBURY: He wasn't athlete. If my memory serves me right, both track and field and soccer, which are two really tough sports, of course. During his time at Gilman, I can't remember any injuries, to be honest.
COATES: He comes from a prominent family, I understand, in Maryland. What do you know about them?
LETHERBURY: The Mangiones, everything I've heard about them are really wonderful people. They're serving the community. They're involved in their causes in their community.
[23:25:00]
I believe they own a couple of country clubs in the area. I feel so heartbroken for them, to be honest. They're good people from all accounts. It's just such a tough time for them.
COATES: Take me into the group chat that you have, Freddie. I know you do with your classmates and other alum. All of you, I'm sure, are pretty shocked. Is there anyone who's revealing less shock than you?
LEATHERBURY: To be honest, no. Um, we had a class of about 130 people. He was probably number 130 on the list of who you would think could create something like this. My friends are all as surprised as I am. I had a hard time believing it at first. It's just a sentiment that's shared across everybody that I know. It's just pure shock.
COATES: Did you either recognize his picture as this person, Luigi?
LEATHERBURY: Not before the name came out. But after the name came out, I can look back at the security camera footage and definitely draw the connection.
COATES: Wow. Freddie Leatherbury, sounds like the community is very shocked. Thank you so much for joining.
LEATHERBURY: Thank you.
COATES: Well, police are racing to determine why Luigi Mangione allegedly killed UnitedHealthcare CEO, Brian Thompson. How did someone with so much promise, as we're being told, end up as a suspect in a murder case that has shocked this entire country?
Well, joining me now, former FBI counterterrorism agent, Tim Clemente, who helped capture the shooters in the D.C. sniper attacks. We all remember that manhunt involving two people as well. You talked to me, Tim. How did Mangione go from a high school valedictorian, Ivy League graduate, no one thinks he's got these grievances, to now a cold- blooded killer, allegedly?
TIM CLEMENTE, FORMER FBI COUNTERTERRORISM AGENT: Well, obviously, Laura, he was radicalized in some way. And if he idolized the Unabomber for reasons that we might not be aware of but, apparently, he did, if those writings that were online were, in fact, attributed to him, if this manifesto was attributed to him, he had a grievance, a grievance against Thompson and apparently other people involved in the health care industry because he, as John Miller mentioned, said "these parasites." Now, that's very specific wording. That's not a simple typo. It's handwritten.
COATES: Hmm.
CLEMENTE: It is not something that he didn't intend to say. So, I believe that John may be correct, there might have been other targets. And you mentioned the D.C. sniper case. We were going through this same thing, head scratching situation where random people were dying, you know, many of them, and everybody was at risk. In this situation, you have a single individual clearly targeted, but he may not have been the only target. So, thank God, NYPD and all the other law enforcement that worked so hard and diligently to get to where we are today.
COATES: And, of course, he is a suspect. He is charged with the crime. The presumption and innocence will still be there. The investigators have their work to try to put that puzzle together.
But I'm really intrigued, based on your background specifically with the D.C. sniper. There were a number of red herrings that were thrown out there by the D.C. snipers, hoping to cover up their ultimate goal and crime that they were hoping, I believe, to target a particular person. And everywhere along the way was a collateral damage and casualty. Did you suspect that there were red herrings similarly right now, or that things that are coming in might present that?
CLEMENTE: Yes, exactly, Laura. I mean, there was so much evidence pointing to a disgruntled customer, somebody that was angry at the healthcare industry, especially at Thompson and UnitedHealthcare, you know, writing the words on the shell casings. That just seemed like such an obvious --
COATES: Delayed, deposed, and yeah, denied.
CLEMENTE: Yeah. And, you know, obviously, it's most likely to have come from that book written in, I think, 2012 about the health care industry, and things have only gotten worse since then, apparently. And so, there's a lot of people. There's a huge suspect pool that would be disgruntled at a health care executive, especially one from the biggest health care company that is apparently denying more claims than any other company.
And so, you can imagine that suspect pool is tens of thousands, if not possibly hundreds of thousands of people --
COATES: Uh-hmm.
CLEMENTE: -- not to crack. But the fact that there was so much evidence pointing in that direction, it led me to believe that that's possibly a misdirect, and it was probably or possibly intended to direct law enforcement and the investigators in one direction when it might have come from another direction. In fact, that wasn't the case there.
COATES: Well, certainly, he is in custody. But that monopoly money, that backpack, that recognizable backpack that was being traced in that sort of steel ring of cameras in New York City, they found it, had monopoly money inside. Why the monopoly money, you think?
CLEMENTE: Well, I think most likely, and this is a guess on my part, but based on the fact that this is about the richest healthcare company in the world, one of the biggest companies in the United States and in the world, and so maybe it was just to mock them that, you know, Thompson is dead, and maybe he had all the money in the world, but where is he now? [23:29:58]
And so, you know, in reality, the guy he killed, the poor innocent victim, and I say innocent because he was truly innocent and didn't deserve to die, regardless of what his company might've been and their policies, but, you know, it might be saying that, you know, the rich people that rip off us poor customers end up with nothing in the end, fake money.
COATES: We'll see the investigation really now that we know the man behind the mask is the suspect. So, assumption of innocence, we'll have a lot more to investigate there. Tim Clemente, thank you so much.
CLEMENTE: Thank you, Laura.
COATES: My panel is back with me now. All right, listen, Katherine, you were talking about this in our conversation earlier. The fact that this was, by all accounts, targeted.
SCHWEIT: Uh-hmm.
COATES: The way that he was shot from behind, once in the leg as well. What did that tell you in terms of the assassin versus the amateur?
SCHWEIT: Oh, I think it can't have been -- I think early on, all of us who work in law enforcement said it can't be an assassin. I know people are talking about it being an assassin, but it can't be an assassin because, first of all, the first shot that went down into his leg is kind of an indication of an amateur, firing a gun, so he may not really have had as much experience.
He did great things, like he cleared the gun. He clearly practiced. He knew how to clear when it jammed and discharge the extra round. But assassins do things like -- we were just talking about at the break about assassins. They don't walk past the subject they shoot without plugging them in maybe again, or they turn around and walk away. There was nothing that really indicated this was an assassin.
COATES: He also kept the gun. I mean, he kept the gun. Why?
SKULE: That's a good question. He seemed to cover his tracks all the way along, was very meticulous, clearly did pre-planning surveillance, had a planned escape route, went into Central Park, less cameras, all the way along, and then kept the gun. The only thing I can come up with is it's (INAUDIBLE) or more likely scenario, he wanted to use it again.
COATES: There are people online right now who are looking at what has happened and the word hero is being used for this individual. Now, Governor Josh Shapiro had a very different take. He said he's not a hero, he is a coward, and we actually want to play for you all what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SHAPIRO: In America, we do not kill people in cold blood to resolve policy differences or express a viewpoint. He is no hero. The real hero in this story is the person who called 911 at McDonald's this morning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: This seems to be more than just ideological, that there is maybe an eye towards preventing anyone from becoming a copycat.
FENTON: Yeah, and then we have the other side of it, where this is going to ignite some more people to come out and do what he just did. If you look online, there's so many people that follow him. They have the same story of healthcare that has been denied and ignited a whole bunch of other people and having the same experience that he did. And now, I think it's a security risk for all executives in the healthcare.
SCHWEIT: We saw hero worshiping with Columbine.
FENTON: Absolutely.
SCHWEIT: We saw hero worshiping with Columbine and other shooters. We don't need any of these copycats.
FENTON: Absolutely.
COATES: I mean, the Boston bomber was on the cover of Rolling Stone, wasn't he? I mean, there was that moment. And there was a lot of conversation about that very thing as what that said about society. That was years ago. And here we are speaking about it again.
SKULE: I think it's atrocious that somebody would think that it's okay to commit murder because of -- they don't feel like they're being heard. That is not how we as a society, he will get what he has coming to him. I think we need to tamp down rhetoric. I think there's an acceptance, more acceptable behavior going on these days that allows people to believe that violence is the only answer.
COATES: Hmm.
SKULE: And I think we need to do more to push that down.
COATES: Katherine, I think about this from a prosecutor standpoint. You've got a jury you've got to convince ultimately. If he is sympathetic to people online, there is the potential you've got a juror who might feel that way.
SCHWEIT: A juror or the whole jury, right? I mean, he's going to want a trial so he can have his day in the court of public opinion. Very likely -- less likely that he might plead out if he's charged and found guilty. But even if one juror -- but what if the whole jury, he could have all of the evidence that goes against him, and it could be jury nullification, meaning that the evidence is there. They really believe he's guilty, but they're going to find him not guilty because they're sympathetic to his position. COATES: Who keeps this case? In New York, they charge him with murder. But you could see some federal charges possibly with the -- across state lines, or you having it in other ways?
FENTON: Absolutely.
SKULE: Absolutely.
COATES: So, who wants it? I mean, you're New York, you want the case.
SKULE: The murder charge takes precedence.
FENTON: Yeah.
SKULE: And so, if they want to -- as we saw, they've charged, made some initial charges, one being murder in New York.
[23:35:02]
More charges are coming.
FENTON: Yeah. New York did all the work. They did all the --
SKULE: Absolutely.
FENTON: They did absolutely great detective work. And this is how he got caught. He put all the information out to the public. And it's the sheer work of the detectives to get him out here and how he got caught.
COATES: Well, stand by, everyone. There's so much more. Ahead on this day of capture, the alleged murder weapon believed to be a ghost gun and potentially even 3D-printed. But how? And why would a gunman choose that kind of weapon? Our firearms expert, Stephen Gutowski, has been analyzing the photo and is standing by to join us next.
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COATES: New revelations tonight about the weapon, the one that was found on the suspect in the murder of UnitedHealthcare CEO, Brian Thompson. Investigators say the firearm is a so-called ghost gun.
[23:40:01]
They say Luigi Mangione had a backpack on him when apprehended, containing -- quote -- "a black 3D-printed pistol and a black silencer." He also had ammunition.
Joining me now, CNN contributor, gun safety instructor, and firearms reporter for thereload.com, Stephen Gutowski. Also, Josh Skule, Eric Fenton, and Katherine Schweit are back with me as well. All right, walk me through, Stephen, the parts of this gun that were 3D-printed and what were not.
STEPHEN GUTOWSKI, CNN CONTRIBUTOR, GUN SAFETY INSTRUCTOR, FIREARMS REPORTER FOR THERELOAD.COM: Yeah, so, in the picture that we have from the police, what you can see, and we've got a great graphic for you here, all the parts in red are what's actually 3D-printed. The frame of the pistol, as it's called, and the other parts there in white that we've outlined, those are made in a factory and you can buy them as individual parts, and then assemble them into a working firearm. That's and it appears what happened here.
COATES: How long will it take to 3D-print a gun like this? It just sounds shocking to many people that that has the capability.
GUTOWSKI: Yeah. So, you only have to print the plastic parts, right? You can't print the metal parts. But it would probably take a couple hours on a decently modern 3D printing platform. And it's not honestly that hard to do. You have to have some level of knowledge about it. It is a bit of an enthusiast thing still for somebody to 3D-print these parts.
COATES: As opposed to a kit or something.
GUTOWSKI: Yeah. Usually, if you're the police recovering on serialized guns like this, that's why they're called ghost guns, because they can't be traced by their serial number, by the ATF. That's -- and so, that's where the nickname comes from. But most of them are made from kits where a company has made the plastic part for you but has only finished about 80% of it. You have to finish the rest of it yourself and put the gun together.
However, you can go this path. It's more of an enthusiast path to actually 3d print it if you know something about 3D printing and, you know, you can get the same end result, although the gun may not work quite as well as a factory-made gun. We kind of saw that in the video of the actual shooting as well.
COATES: Because it seemed to malfunction.
GUTOWSKI: Uh-hmm.
COATES: He was able to correct it.
GUTOWSKI: And he seemed to know that it was going to malfunction. Interestingly -- perhaps even more interestingly than the frame being printed is that the silencer, according to the affidavit, is also printed, which is, I think, even rarer thing, to see somebody actually do it is possible.
But I don't know that I've ever even heard of a 3D-printed silencer being recovered in a crime like this. It's very niche, sort of enthusiast thing to do. But you can do it and seems like he has done that. We don't have a picture of it so we can't quite verify it.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
GUTOWSKI: But, you know, I don't see any reason to doubt that that could be the case. He did 3D-print the frame for that gun. So, he certainly had the ability and the technology to do it. So --
COATES: Now, I mean, the use of a ghost gun or in this manner that can't be traced suggests at least some element of premeditations that you could not be detected.
SKULE: Well, for sure. I think we're seeing a lot of premeditation, not just with the ghost gun, but that certainly went before he got to New York. But let's be clear, law enforcement has been concerned about ghost guns for many years. When the 3D printing became real, they were starting to recover them at the scenes of shootings and murders and other things. They weren't as prevalent as they're going to be as they are today or where they're going to be in the future, but it's a huge concern for law enforcement.
COATES: And without the use of ghost guns in particular, that is sometimes the best evidence to try to trace it, to try to link it to somebody else.
FENTON: Absolutely.
COATES: If you have that untraceable feature of it, it can stymie the investigation.
FENTON: Absolutely. It makes it much more difficult for you to backtrack the gun, find out where it came from, the origin of the gun, calibers. Those things, it makes it extremely difficult.
COATES: So how do you use the fact that this is the type of weapon in the guiding of an investigation, ultimate prosecution?
SCHWEIT: If you tell the jury there's a reason why he's using this. He doesn't want to be traced. He doesn't want anybody to know it's him. He doesn't want anything to stop him from committing the act that he was going to commit. And part of that was going another way to get the gun. Instead of getting perhaps denied, having somebody else see it, he secretly went someplace to get it because he wanted to have every advantage beforehand so he could finish his crime.
COATES: We'll see how all of this plays out just less than 12 hours away from when he actually was even caught and suspected and arraigned. Thank you so much, everyone.
Still ahead tonight, the other major crime story getting a lot of national attention. Daniel Penny is now a free man, off the hook and acquitted in the chokehold death of Jordan Neely. But tonight, the legal fight may not quite be over. The attorney representing the Neely family live with me next for his first CNN interview since that verdict.
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[23:45:00]
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COATES: The jury has spoken. Daniel Penny found not guilty of criminally negligent homicide in the chokehold death of Jordan Neely in a New York City subway last year, prompting a round of applause as the verdict was read aloud, followed by an emotional response from Neely's father, Andre Zachary, an audible outburst with expletives. He was immediately escorted out of the courtroom. Now, outside court, he expressed his disappointment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDRE ZACHARY, FATHER OF JORDAN NEELY: I just want to say I miss my son. My son didn't have to go through this. I didn't have to go through this either. It hurts. Really, really hurts. What are we going to do, people?
[23:50:00]
What's going to happen to us now? I've had enough of this. System is rigged.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Meanwhile, Daniel Penny and his attorneys raising a glass to celebrate his not guilty verdict in Neely's death. Kyle Rittenhouse, who gained notoriety for his acquittal in a high-profile shooting case in the wake of George Floyd, taking to social media to applaud the acquittal.
I want to bring in attorney for the Neely family, Donte Mills. Donte, how is the family feeling about the verdict? What are they telling you?
DONTE MILLS, ATTORNEY FOR JORDAN NEELY'S FAMILY: They're devastated. There was a conversation, Laura, that I had with them where you always go in and say, there's a chance here that we get justice. There's a chance that Jordan, who simply wanted to be heard, wanted to be seen during his life, would be seen in his death.
And that didn't happen in the courtroom. And it was very hard for the family to take. And, in fact, Andre Zachary, Jordan's father, did have an outbreak in the courtroom because not only two rows behind him, someone was clapping that the person who took his son's life would not be held responsible. And that, to me, shows just a disregard.
We have to care about each other. Everyone here is important, whether you're homeless, whether you have mental issues. And one thing that I keep hearing, Laura, that I just want to talk about briefly is, a lot of people say, well, where was his family then? That's not how life works. Sometimes, people go through things and they have demons. Andre's mother was killed when he was a teenager in the house, and her body was put in a suitcase and left on the side of the road. He had demons he couldn't get over.
That didn't mean his family didn't love him because he couldn't be around people. It didn't mean that he didn't have people that cared for him because he did. The Neely family is full of love. But we all have family members that go through things. That doesn't make their lives less valuable. And that was the feeling they got when that verdict was announced, especially with that reaction in the room.
COATES: Unbelievably tragic, with his mother and, of course, his own demise. Just heartbreaking for the family, what the father must be going through. And then there's the family of the defendant, Daniel Penny. And Donte, his attorney, is issuing a statement, speaking about what has happened to his client, saying, "For over 18 months, our client has lived under the weight of a criminal indictment, all the while guilty of nothing more than trying to protect his fellow New Yorkers from a psychotic madman with a history of violence" -- unquote.
I wonder what your reaction is when you hear Jordan described in that way.
MILLS: Well, this shows a lack of compassion and empathy. And it's not a realistic statement because when you break it down, there was no way for Daniel Penny to know about Jordan Neely's history. He didn't speak to him at all. And, in fact, the entire incident only took 30 seconds. Within 15 seconds of Jordan being on that train and screaming at people and making people afraid, Daniel Penny came from behind him and took him down. The train arrived at the station 10 seconds later. Thirty seconds later, after Jordan nearly got on that train, everybody was off the train, the threat was over.
And Daniel Penny continued to hold him and choke him for five and a half more minutes when people were screaming, let him go, you're going to kill him. I got his hands, you can let his neck go because you're going to kill him. That is what Daniel Penny did wrong. We're not saying he's racist, we're not challenging, and we applaud people that step up when they feel people are in danger, but you can't take it too far. And if you do, you have to be held responsible, and that's all we're saying.
COATES: The jury didn't see it that way. Why do you think that is?
MILLS: Well, there was a question, right? They believed, for the manslaughter charge, they were hung. They could not decide. And the expectation was if that top charge was removed from the table, that they would come back with a decision on that second charge. They came back with a not guilty, which I don't understand, because how could someone who's trained, has military training, he has a brown belt and military karate training and trained with CPR, how could it be that he did not know that if you choke someone for six minutes straight, they would die?
That's the question the jury had to answer. That's the question they struggled with, but ultimately came back on the lesser charge with a not guilty verdict. And I just don't know how to explain that to the family because if they believe Jordan's life mattered, you would have to say, you would know if you choke someone for six minutes straight, they are going to die, and that's simply taking it too far.
COATES: Well, you're filing, I believe, pursuing a civil suit against him. What are you seeking?
MILLS: We started it already. We started the civil suit. And we started it last week when we heard all of the evidence. Once the evidence was in, once we knew that the jury was out deliberating and they were on their second, their third day, it was clear to us that there was enough evidence in this case for us to move forward with the civil case. [23:55:04]
We have the right in this country to bring a wrongful death action when someone dies at the hand of another. And the jury will have the opportunity to hold Daniel Penny accountable for his actions in that civil case, and that's what we expect. This fight is not over. We are going to stick up for this family. We're going to make sure Jordan's voice is heard. He came on that train initially asking for food, and he was ignored and put in a chokehold. We are going to step up and continue this fight and make sure that his voice is heard and Daniel Penny is held responsible.
COATES: Thank you so much for joining us, Donte Mills. I understand the family must be reeling at a moment like this. Thank you.
MILLS: Thank you, ma'am.
COATES: I want to thank you all for watching this special edition of "Laura Coates Live." Our coverage continues.
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