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Laura Coates Live
Suspected Killer Defiant As Police Uncover Alleged "To-Do" List; Daniel Penny Breaks Silence. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired December 10, 2024 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00]
REP. RICH MCCORMICK (R-GA): You are responsible for the fall of the postal service and the lack of accountability.
LOUIS DEJOY, U.S. POSTMASTER GENERAL: No, this Congress is responsible for the fall of the postal service. I am trying to fix -- I am trying to fix the postal service.
MCCORMICK: On your watch, with all the A.I. --
DEJOY: On my watch, the same stuff happened --
MCCORMICK: With all the A.I., with all the computer systems, you're worse than if I took a horse --
DEJOY: You're talking to yourself.
MCCORMICK: -- and picked up the mail and delivered it two miles down the road. That's you.
(LAUGHTER)
I hope you got that on camera.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AUDIE CORNISH, CNN HOST AND CORRESPONDENT, PODCAST HOST: DeJoy told Congress that he would give the postal service an A, which McCormick disputed, to say the least.
We want to thank you so much for watching tonight. We appreciate you joining the conversation. "NewsNight." "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN (voice-over): The murder suspect, Luigi Mangione, is fighting extradition.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Yelling out to reporters and struggling with police.
LUIGI MANGIONE, SHOOTING SUSPECT: An insult to the intelligence of the American people! It's lived experience! THOMAS DICKEY, ATTORNEY FOR CEO SHOOTING SUSPECT LUIGI MANGIONE: I haven't seen any evidence that says that he's a shooter.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST (voice-over): The to-do list for killing as well as notes justifying those plans.
UNKNOWN: I have received some threats against our officers.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): The Robinhood that we never knew that we needed.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): The banner above I-83 with the words deny, defend, depose.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): Investigators are looking at a possible back injury.
UNKNOWN: Whether or not the insurance industry either denied a claim from him or didn't help him out.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): The fact that he went after the insurance industry is curious because he comes from an affluent family.
UNKNOWN: This is one of the last people you think would do something like this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: That infamous smile turns to a menacing scowl. As police say, the killer penned a chilling blueprint for the murder of CEO Brian Thompson. Good evening and welcome to a special edition this evening. I'm Laura Coates for this special hour of "Laura Coates Live" right from New York City, where authorities are busy building up their murder case against one Luigi Mangione.
Our team of reporters and attorneys and law enforcement experts will be with me for the next hour dissecting what we know right now and what comes next. This is calm as Mangione was during the alleged killing? Well, it seemed to be anything but today. The 26-year-old Ivy League suspect showing up shackled in an orange jumpsuit outside a court in Pennsylvania. Defiant, ready to fight the push to get him extradited back to New York City. He went in, shouting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MANGIONE: It's completely out of touch and an insult to the intelligence of the American people! It's lived experience!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: It was a very different scene when Mangione came out after he was denied bail. No words to reporters, straight to the police car. His lawyer says he told Mangione in court to stay quiet. He also says this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DICKEY: I haven't seen any evidence that says that he's a shooter. The fundamental concept of American justice is the presumption of innocence until you're proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. I've seen zero evidence at this point.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: He claims he hasn't seen the evidence. But there is some video showing UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson being gunned down. There is a gun. There's a backpack, too, not to mention a manifesto. And tonight, we're learning investigators say they're looking at handwritten pages of a spiral notebook that Mangione kept. They say it includes a to-do list of tasks that need to be completed to carry out a killing. He writes about the Unabomber, saying using a bomb could -- quote -- "kill innocents" and that's just shooting would be more targeted. He also muses about what could be better than to -- quote -- "kill the CEO at his own bean counting conference."
But police are also honing in on this, a potential back injury Mangione may have suffered in July of 2023. He posted an image online of an X-ray showing the aftermath of a spinal surgery. Did he run into problems with the health insurance industry or the health insurance more broadly? That's what police want to know.
And what we do know is that Mangione dropped off the grid about six months ago or so. Friends were looking for him. His family was, too. "The New York Times" reports his own mother filed a missing person report in San Francisco back on November 18th, just six days before he showed up here in New York City.
CNN senior crime and justice correspondent Shimon Prokupecz starts us off tonight. Shimon, where do investigators stand tonight with the evidence collected in this very case?
SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, there's a lot, Laura. As you just went through in your list of evidence, much of it right now is focused in Altoona, Pennsylvania. And let's look at what there is in Pennsylvania. So, you have the gun. That's -- this is where they found the gun. There was a laptop that he was sitting in the McDonald's with. And then, as you said, there is this spiral notebook. In his -- in his own words, written, police say, are these words.
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Quote -- "To kill the CEO at his own bean counting conference." He also talked about in that spiral notebook that he didn't want to use a bomb because he -- quote -- "did not want to kill innocents." And all of that is part of the evidence that so far, we're told, police have recovered in Pennsylvania.
But then the gun. The gun is a key part of this. And in any case, law enforcement, prosecutors always want the gun that was used in the crime. And now, police believe they have it. It is this weapon here, the photo that CNN obtained. It is a 3D gun, a ghost gun, so there's no way to trace it. One of the key things that investigators are going to be doing is looking if they could match bullets, shell casings from the scene to this gun, which would give them direct evidence tying Mangione to the crime, potentially tying him to the murder if they could link, directly link this gun to that scene, to the crime scene, Laura.
COATES: Well, that's the evidence they found in places like Pennsylvania, right? What about the evidence that we learned about in the infancy of this entirety when you had things gathered here in New York?
PROKUPECZ: So, there's a lot also here in New York. As we've talked about, the backpack. That backpack is so key because he is seen in surveillance video allegedly wearing the same backpack that police would eventually search for and find in Central Park.
They also have a cell phone. They have not yet directly linked it to him, but there is a fingerprint on that cell phone. So, police are looking to match that to see if his fingerprints match to the fingerprint on that cell phone.
There is also a water bottle that police believe he purchased at a nearby Starbucks. There is a smudged fingerprint, we're told, on that. They could potentially link that smudge fingerprint to him, and we'll see if that happens.
And obviously, the surveillance footage. He is seen in surveillance -- surveillance footage all over Manhattan. Police say that is a key part of their investigation. It is how they were able to track him.
COATES: It seems like a treasure trove in a way, although if one of those things doesn't line up, prosecutors have a problem on their hands. What are the outstanding questions the investigators still have?
PROKUPECZ: So, one of -- look, a big part of what they're trying to figure out is he was here for 10 days. What was he doing here for those 10 days? Who was he talking to? Were there potentially other targets? And what was his movement? They really want to know what his movement was during that time period.
The other thing, the key thing that they have not been able to find so far is the electric bike that he is seen allegedly in video riding around Manhattan. He's caught on surveillance video. He's fleeing, allegedly fleeing the scene of the crime in it. They have still yet to find that bike.
And the other thing in all of this is what was he doing in Pennsylvania where police ultimately caught up to him after they received the tip of him sitting in the McDonald's. That is a big part of this investigation now in Pennsylvania.
Look, this investigation is stretching all over the country. He has connections to Maryland, to obviously now Pennsylvania, Hawaii. The other big question now is they're going to go back. They want to look as far back as they possibly can to see what was going on in his life. So, a lot more to do here for investigators, certainly, Laura.
COATES: In many ways, when they find out who they believe is the man behind the mask, the real investigation begins. Shimon Prokupecz, thank you so much.
We're also learning more about the suspect and his powerful and wealthy family. CNN's Brian Todd is live in Cockeysville, Maryland outside one of the country clubs the Mangione family owns. Brian, we are learning more about how back pain may have impacted Mangione's life. What do you know?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right, Laura. Well, according to his former building manager in Hawaii and his friend there, R.J. Martin, the suspect, Mangione, did suffer back pain in recent years and underwent surgery for treatment. Now, according to a now deleted Reddit account that closely matches his biographical details, that account says that Mangione aggravated this back injury following a surfing incident last year. Here's what R.J. Martin told CNN earlier about the suspect's back injuries.
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R.J. MARTIN, FORMER ROOMMATE OF LUIGI MANGIONE: I think that pain is something that can change our brain chemistry. You know, I think it's something that changes our thoughts. And I don't know because I don't have firsthand knowledge from him of how much pain he was in or what he was dealing with, but I do know, you know, from personal experience and from other friends and family, that when somebody is suffering, the way they think about themselves and the world gets warped drastically.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TODD: Now, according to the New York Police Department's head of their detective division, Joseph Kenny, investigators are looking at whether this back pain, these back injuries, might have been a factor in this murder.
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Kenny is saying that they're looking at whether the insurance industry might have either denied Mangione a claim or maybe just did not give him help to the fullest extent. Laura?
COATES: Now, all of us are wondering the why. I suspect investigators are thinking more about the how as well. In fact, family, you're outside of one of the family's exclusive golf clubs, just how influential is this family in this Baltimore area?
TODD: Hugely, wealthy, and influential, Laura. You really can't overstate it. The Mangione family is very powerful. I mean, they own this country club behind me and a series of very high-end houses that are within the grounds of this country club. We're excluded from even going in there. The security all over this place is keeping us out of that vicinity. So that's just kind of one example of their power and influence here. But also, we spoke to an attorney, Thomas Maronick, Jr., who is an attorney here. But he is also more pertinently -- he was a radio talk show host, WCBM Radio. That's an A.M. radio station, a very conservative radio talk show station. He hosted a show there for 20 years. This is a station owned by the Mangione family. He talked about how powerful and influential they are.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THOMAS MARONICK, JR., FORMER RADIO HOST FOR MANGIONE FAMILY-OWNED STATION: The Mangione family is one of the prominent families of Baltimore County. They own a lot of real estate. They own golf courses. They're just a very well-respected name, and they treated me incredibly well during my time at WCBM.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TODD: Right, Maronick said that while he was at that radio station, uh, you know, he had kind of centrist views when he hosted that talk show, and even though the Mangione family was fairly conservative and other hosts at that station were conservative, he was very complimentary of the Mangione family, saying that they never tried to influence his content, never tried to kind of sway his political views more to the right. He said they treated him very well and that they were very generous with all the employees. Laura?
COATES: So much more to unpack. Brian Todd, thank you very much. I want to bring in David Sarni, a retired NYPD detective and adjunct professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice, Joey Jackson, CNN legal analyst and defense attorney, Arthur Aidala, a criminal defense attorney, and Tom Verni, a retired NYPD detective.
There's a lot to unpack, Arthur, in just the last few days, few hours, frankly, and you know as well as anybody that while investigators are trying to figure out all the hows, the court of public opinion is on top of mind for the defense attorney. When you look at what has come out right now, what comes to mind for you?
ARTHUR AIDALA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, what's in the top of my mind is this kid's parents and his grandfather, especially after you're hearing what the radio show host just said about this family. They came up from nothing. I know they did because I did a little research, and grandpa built this whole thing up. And they must just be home devastated.
And in the line of work that I do, that's who sits on the other side of the desk, right? The defendant is in prison, and I have the crying hysterical family in front of me. And you try to come up with answers. And in this case, it's not -- you know, the answers are not that easy to come by. People have mixed feelings. It is interesting, his defense attorney, said, I haven't seen any of the evidence.
COATES: But, of course, he wouldn't. He has not discovered.
AIDALA: Right, exactly. So, he's -- you know, he's playing (INAUDIBLE). I did speak to the chief of patrol of the NYPD, John Chell. I got a little low down on what's going on. And they feel very confident that the evidence that they have is going to secure a conviction in this case if it goes to trial.
You know, as a defense attorney, you just got to pick, pick, pick away, but also you just have to make sure everybody's rights are protected, that no -- any search warrants that are going to be done, because I'm sure they will be done, are done properly. Any time they're going to try to do any investigatory means that they use, anything they need to ask for a judge, the defense attorneys just stand and make sure everything is being done by the book.
COATES: And, of course, Tom, you know that very well, right? You know that these are the things that the defense attorney, like my esteemed colleagues here, are going to attack first. If you can't attack the evidence, you've got to attack the way it came in. So, knowing that, how does the investigative team get ahead of it?
TOM VERNI, RETIRED NYPD DETECTIVE: Well, I mean, this investigation is not over. Right? This is going to go on for quite some time because you're talking about multi-state investigations, not just -- this went beyond New York City. Right?
COATES: It means cooperation between these two jurisdictions.
VERNI: Cooperation between a lot of different moving parts here. We're talking about cooperation among different police departments in different cities in different states. This young man, as has been reported, took a bus out from Atlanta or was on a bus that left from Atlanta, then came here, and then at some point left here, went to parts unknown, but then somehow finds his way to Altoona, Pennsylvania. So, there's a lot of missing pieces here still.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
VERNI: And, you know, the one thing that we want to try to do is maintain a good chain of evidence to make sure that that, you know, is intact. That the prosecutor can, you know, connect all these dots that we've connected, take all these bits of evidence.
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Make a good, solid case, too, where there is no doubt, beyond reasonable doubt, that this is the person that we are looking for, that committed this horrible act right in the middle of a sidewalk in broad daylight in Manhattan.
COATES: They're going to do that. But I also hear now that the Altoona Police Department is also working on the case. Again, death threat. So, you've got this idea of trying to get this done, trying to find the book. You know, people like Joey Jackson and defense attorneys are going to be watching everything that's going on. And yet they've got this new pressure of in the public spotlight and death threats.
DAVID SARNI, RETIRED NYPD DETECTIVE, ADJUNCT PROFESSOR AT JOHN JAY COLLEGE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE: Yeah, this is something, unfortunately, we're seeing a lot in social media, the keyboard warriors that are out there. And the people who are or putting this perpetrator, the defendant in this case, on a higher pedestal, haven't realized the fact that he shot somebody in the back cold bloodedly, he planned it, he plotted it, he made decision, he writes in his documents what he was going to do. This is not someone to praise. This is not someone to say this is okay.
And to see threats against police for doing their job, let me tell you, when you walked up to an identified perpetrator, a possible identified perpetrator who may have a gun, and these two cops did a fantastic job by diffusing the situation and getting this guy into custody while he has a firearm on him, so to see that happen is -- it's egregious on every level. And as a detective, it's sad to see how people will vilify the police for doing their job.
COATES: Joey, you know, look, take up -- put on your defense counsel hat for me. You see the vilification people are talking about, but you also see a lot of the praise that he has been receiving. I mean, he is -- it's like the hell in the face that launch a thousand ships is the person who launched a thousand memes in support of him. How do you A, use that to the advantage as a defendant, and B, what we're seeing now, this transformation going from, you know, the person with the mask coming down to now the angry person in the jumpsuit?
JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yeah. You know, when you talk about vilification, Laura, you look and you see the vilification of the health care industry.
COATES: Yeah.
JACKSON: First and foremost. And you understand that there's a significant problem with the industry, you understand people's frustrations, you understand people who are dying and they're not getting covered by the industry, you understand people's fights about their claims that are legitimate. However, that being said, this person who was shot and killed, right, is a face of a larger, larger problem. So, you ask yourself, I defend unpopular people from time to time, my friend, Arthur, does the same, should we be taken down as a result of the people who we stand up for and represent? Answer, no.
And so, at the end of the day, you hear and you listen and you look on social media. This guy is a hero for taking -- are you kidding me? And so, you have to look and determine. Yes, there's frustration. Is this the best, most appropriate way to deal with it? Answer, no. What I was struck by is the fact that his attorney has indicated that there are people saying that they would cover his fees for this.
COATES: Yeah. He didn't say who was paying me, by the way. First of all, what was that about? What -- why don't we know who's paying his bills?
AIDALA: I don't -- I don't think he needs to worry about that. To Joey's point, though, that's what doesn't make sense in this whole puzzle. This kid --
COATES: Is that the one thing? AIDALA: Well, there is a lot. But this kid has got the money. And the family owns country clubs. I could see someone having the motivation, who needs that back surgery, who's in agonizing pain. And look, back pain is maybe the worst pain. And he can't get it because insurance denies him. He doesn't have family money. So, he's living in pain and now he's going to get revenge. This is a valedictorian at University of Pennsylvania. He's got this whole world in front of him, his whole life in front of him --
COATES: But yet --
AIDALA: -- and he had the operation.
COATES: Well, before you say that, I have heard this conversation. In fact, I was hearing it throughout the day. People were saying, well, if he had the money, he can do it. Then why would he be the person who would feel as though he was entitled? I'm using that term lightly to do so. But then they're talking about the access to the system more broadly, even having the funding and being denied. Now, all of this goes into the why, why him.
Are investigators focusing on that part or are they focusing on how, how did you elude capture for five days? How did you end up in Pennsylvania? Where were you? Who were you on the phone with? Did you have help? Who gave you $8,000?
VERNI: Yeah. I mean, look, there's no doubt that this was methodically planned out. We're seeing that in the documents that have already been found, in his backpack, amongst all things. He took great lengths to conceal his identity and did it pretty well. You know, there was a debate that was going on at the beginning of this, whether he was a professional hitman versus someone who had --
COATES: Yeah.
VERNI: -- some sort of grievance against the UnitedHealthcare or the CEO. And I wasn't leaning on the hitman part because a professional hitman would have been a ghost. You never would have saw this guy either coming to or leaving the scene and wouldn't have left behind a treasure trove of evidence. So, that's one thing. Clearly, he thought about this quite a bit.
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And at some point, he is, you know, more cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs than we can imagine because he snapped. Something about this kid snapped. He's a smart kid, very well read and whatnot. But something either about his back operation, something about having to deal with the insurance company. Maybe other people joining in saying, you know what? I had a problem with that insurance company, too. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who hasn't had an issue with an insurance company.
JACKSON: But to take it to this point --
(CROSSTALK) COATES: To be clear, right, the why is for our conversation. For the prosecution, they got to prove the case. They got to prove what happened when he did it and was he the right person. We have more to unpack. Stand by, everyone.
Still ahead tonight, shock setting in for those who knew Luigi Mangione, the smiling Ivy League whiz kid with the -- was that a happy meal next to him? Now charged with a sensational assassination that has rattled the communities that he once called home. One of his former U-Penn classmates standing by live with his perspective tonight. And later, the one line from the alleged manifesto that might give us the clearest picture yet of how the suspect sees himself.
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COATES: Tonight, those who knew the family of Luigi Mangione praised them as the pinnacle of success.
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JACQUES KELLY, BALTIMORE SUN REPORTER WHO KNOWS FAMILY OF CEO KILLER SUSPECT: They're wonderful people who gave back to Baltimore. Although they made a lot of money, they also wrote checks to hospitals, the Walters Art Museum, educational institutions. It just seems unthinkable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: And yet, he is the suspect in this case. Ivy League classmates of Mangione say that he was intelligent, kind, and even thoughtful. A standout among his peers. With me now, Isaias Jacinto, who lived in the same dorm as Mangione during the freshman year at the University of Pennsylvania. Isaias, you know, I'm so curious. What your reaction was when you learned that this alleged killer lived in your college dorm freshman year? Did you even recognize him when you saw the photos?
ISAIAS JACINTO, LIVED IN SAME DORM AS LUIGI MANGIONE: Of Luigi?
COATES: Yeah.
JACINTO: The photo circulating of him smiling? Yes, I recognized a smiling, happy, a vibrant Luigi. I think that's what he always was. I mean, it was freshman year of college, we were all starry-eyed 18- year-olds, and Luigi was no exception. He was brilliant. I always enjoyed every conversation that I had with him. And though we didn't get into politics much, he was always very thoughtful, and I feel like I left every conversation with him with some more -- some more thought.
COATES: How do you reconcile that person you remember with the person who's now really in an orange jumpsuit, a suspect in a homicide? JACINTO: It makes me sad. It makes me really, really sad to see someone -- and, you know, with all the information that has been gathered, my heart breaks for everyone involved. Everyone -- I don't think this should have happened. I think there's much to be said about the type of society that allows these kinds of things to happen.
I mean, I believe that if we had -- you know, if we live in Norway, this would have not been an issue, or in Sweden, because there's so much anger there. And I think that's probably a part of what you're seeing online with the defense. For him is that so many people empathize with, you know, being angry at insurance companies, angry at a system that puts profits over people.
COATES: You're referencing some European nations who have a different universal experience with healthcare or closer to that, certainly in the United States. We're learning though that Mangione may have had some personal health issues. Apparently, had serious back issues. "The New York Times" reports that Mangione wrote on Reddit that he suffered from brain fog during college. Did you ever hear him talk about any health issues?
JACINTO: We didn't really talk about that much. I feel like most of our hangouts were in groups, sometimes in his dorm, you know, every now and then. I don't recall any health issues from him that he would talk about.
COATES: Did you ever recall seeing him injured?
JACINTO: No, not that I remember.
COATES: I don't want to cut you off. I'm sorry. And I want to hear about -- I'm sure there are some group chats going on, Isaias, where alumni, former classmates, friends like yourself, are talking about the reality of what is now setting in. And undoubtedly, you saw him yelling to the press before entering court earlier today. What are you guys saying?
JACINTO: We're horrified. We're in shock. I think those of us who knew him are just like, wow, it really -- it's sad. It's just a sad situation.
COATES: Isaias Jacinto, thank you so much for joining us.
JACINTO: Thank you.
COATES: Well, every hour, police reveal new clues in the CEO murder investigation. Tonight, investigators revealing that they have a spiral notebook with handwritten notes from Mangione. That's in addition to that three-page manifesto that was found in this person when he was arrested just yesterday. And police say they're also looking into the back injury he reportedly suffered in July of last year. But there's still no clear motive as to why Mangione allegedly targeted Brian Thompson in particular last week.
Joining me now, Casey Jordan, an attorney, criminologist, and behavioral analyst. Casey, a lot is coming up. CASEY JORDAN, ATTONEY, CRIMINOLOGIST, BEHAVIORAL ANALYST: Hi, Laura.
COATES: We're learning a lot. Hello to you. What do you make of the alleged killer saying that he didn't want to use a bomb against his target because "it might kill innocents?" That was the quote.
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That it could be better to -- quote -- "kill the CEO at his own bean counting conference." That's according to a law enforcement source. What do you make of that?
JORDAN: Well, we have some snippets from the manifesto that was found on him when the police arrested him. Even though we don't have the full thing available to the public, what we know is that he saw himself as almost a superhero. You know, in his mind, he's a batman, you know, seeking vengeance against the evil people of Gotham or of the United States. He really does seem to have a delusional view of this. And the onset of that seems to be happening in the last six to nine months when he kind of fell off the face of the earth.
But his targeting of the CEO of an insurance company was, in his mind, a symbolic, if you will, sacrifice to raise consciousness nationwide about this, what he called parasitic insurance industry. What we're not clear on is where did he get that idea. Was it from his own personal experience? Was it from his own research? I know his family owns a series of elderly rehabilitation healthcare facilities. Maybe it came from that. But that is what we are eager to find out. Where did this come from?
COATES: I'm so glad you mentioned it. I've been thinking about that and this type of business. What did he see? Because he shouts back, it's lived experience. And that to me as a prosecutor thought, what is he referencing? Is he trying to signal something different? And how can that be, frankly, used against him in a court of law?
In the manifesto, Mangione described his plan as -- quote -- "fairly trivial" but that it took a lot of patience, he said. And taken issue with being called, though, sophisticated. So, what do you think he wants the public to believe about him and why?
JORDAN: Well, he is highly intelligent. We just know that from his background, private school valedictorian, two degrees, engineer, computer science. He is a highly intelligent human being. And yet he still made mistakes. He dropped the phone, he dropped the water bottle, he got caught at a McDonald's just like the Parkland shooter. I mean, at some point, there is no perfect crime. But he does seem to be highly sophisticated in the methodical carrying out of the act. The question is, if he still mentally ill as well as intelligent?
And what about the back injury? At first, I thought that could have been a ruse or a con. Did he really have back surgery? But his mother confirmed that he really did. At the same time, he comes from an affluent family. He would never have to worry about losing his home or being denied insurance coverage. He would never be put in the poorhouse because of his operation. So, he is intelligent, but I think he has gone down some rabbit holes reading about the insurance industry. Don't forget the three words that he wrote on the bullets. He thinks that he is a hero representing the people who are maligned by the insurance industry. The question is, where did he get that from? But he takes it very seriously. He does think he's a hero.
COATES: I want to bring in David back into this because, and my panel sitting with me, how he wants the world to see him could be very instructive in the investigation, right? To figure out what rabbit holes you would pursue, to figure out who is this guy, why did he do it, and were there others?
SARNI: Yeah, that's the whole thing about the process you've been going, the step by step, multi-faceted moment from the pre -- we always go with the shooting, and they work outwards, from the pre- shoot where he was and the post-shoot where he's gone. So, they've been piecing this together.
And you're seeing little more bits and bits and pieces of this because when you see the video, there is a lot of speculation on who this person is. He's a hitman. Did he practice in his mind a thousand times? Probably, in that. So, he knew what he was doing, probably, when the shoot took place. He had monopoly money in his bag. Was that going to be something he use as like another calling card to drop money there or something because he talked about a bean counter. So maybe that's why he had the monopoly money. We don't know.
But you're speculating. These are parts of the puzzle. And detectives are doing that. So, each piece of this is going to create documentation, the video surveillance, the extended video canvas. All this is going to get to where you need to be. And will we act -- and I was hoping he would actually -- when they sat down with him in the box interrogation, I was hoping they would actually talk because given the fact you write something on magic -- with his -- with a magic marker with the words on those bullet casings, he somehow wanted someone to make a statement. And there, I was hoping, when he -- when he got -- when the squad got there, that he would have actually said why he did.
COATES: Hmm.
SARNI: But now, we have the paperwork that kind of lead you to that, too.
JACKSON: So, what happens, Laura, as you know, you never have to prove motivation, right? As a prosecutor. However, inquiring minds always want to know. And I think that it's building up to, and you may hear a lot during the course of this trial, should it proceed that way, about the health industry, about his feelings about it, about his radicalization with respect to it, about his operation. Was there a connection? Did they deny him?
[23:34:55]
Did he think, although intelligent, although from this wealthy family, that he carried, right? This badge of honor that he was going to be the one, wealthy or not, to take them down by doing a deed that he thought may be heroic, right? Many people agree that it is. Most say, what are you doing? Right? Did other more appropriate ways to send a message. But I think we're going to hear a lot about motivations moving forward even though it's not required in a criminal case.
COATES: Look, he was captured yesterday. Someone tells me that was the beginning of the investigative story. Casey Jordan, thank you so much for joining us today. Also, to my panel, stick around, please.
Up next, what will Luigi Mangione face behind bars? And will the sympathies out there in the real world for him find its way inside those jail walls? A former Ivy Leaguer turned convict himself, turned prison consultant for the rich, joins me next.
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[23:40:00]
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COATES: The suspect in the killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO drawing stunning praise on social media. The internet turning Luigi Mangione into some kind of folk hero.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: This Ivy League hottie named Luigi is the Robinhood that we never knew that we needed.
UNKNOWN: I listened to Luigi's manifesto this morning three times, and I cried. Honestly, it's beautiful. And I agree with him.
UNKNOWN: At least he left a very powerful message, and he highlighted how terrible the healthcare system is in America. I think he'll go down as a hero in history.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Hmm. The question is, will that notoriety make its way to prison? My next guest has first-hand experience of life behind bars, spending 20 months himself in prison after pleading guilty to wire fraud and insurance fraud scheme. Today, he's a federal prison consultant, most recently helping Trump adviser, Peter Navarro, navigate his own incarceration. Sam Mangel joins me now.
Sam, thank you for joining me. Listen, Mangione, he is still in custody in Pennsylvania. We've seen the scene of an outburst outside the court today. Do you think he's experiencing at this point in time -- how can I put it? -- a kind of state of shock or defiance at this hour?
SAM MANGEL, FEDERAL PRISON CONSULTANT: When you first enter prison, it's surreal, so when he first went in there through the sally port and was in a single cell. At this point, I don't think he has any clue what's ahead of him. Right now, he's in isolation, he's not around other inmates, and he's really trying to portray this image of bravado of himself.
Until it's my experience with every client, I don't care what your offense is. It's not until that judge reads a number that it really sinks in. And for somebody like Mr. Mangione, that number might very well be life, and the implications are going to be staggering.
COATES: So, what -- give us a sense of what life for Mangione will be like behind bars. Right now, again, in Pennsylvania looking to be extradited, not voluntarily, to New York where he may very well end up at Rikers Island.
MANGEL: I heard you in an earlier segment talked about how it might turn into a federal matter. And this is one of the few instances where a defendant might pray that it does turn into a federal matter. Because if he winds up going to a New York State prison for the rest of his life, first of all, until he gets to prison in Rikers, chances are he'll be held in protective custody. So, he'll be somewhat segregated and protected from the other inmates.
COATES: Because why?
MANGEL: When he gets to --
COATES: Why would he be -- is it because --
MANGEL: Well, because he's so high profile.
COATES: High profile. Got it.
MANGEL: And also, he's probably on suicide watch. So, somebody like him, they're going to want to make sure he gets the trial, he gets the sentencing. I don't think Rikers needs another black eye, same as Brooklyn MCC. They're not looking for another high-profile incident. And if something happens to him, whether on his own volition or through another inmate, that just causes, you know, a whole number of problems ancillary to him.
Once he gets sentenced, and whether he's sentenced to New York State prison or hopefully to a federal facility, he's going to be in general population. If he's not in general population, if he's in New York, he'll be in protective custody, which is a shoe environment where you're in a one-man or two-man cell, locked up 23 out of 24 hours a day. Imagine spending the rest of your life in a 6x9 box where you get out one time a day for an hour, three showers a week. It is no existence.
They can't let him into general population because, given his background, he's not going to be like a peacock strutting their feathers about what he did and people will look up to him. He's not a political figure. He's not a high-profile financier or sports figure or a music star. He's somebody with very wealthy parents.
COATES: So, he won't be seen as a hero inside of jail, the way he's being portrayed on social media.
MANGEL: Absolutely not. He will be a number inside jail. He will be a target inside jail. He will be somebody's money bag inside jail or many people. And they will extort him. Less so in a federal maximum- security facility, which has better -- and I use the word accommodations carefully, but certainly more security. It's more structured. It's probably safer for him. They're probably better accustomed to higher-profile inmates on life sentences. Like him, there are certain facilities in the federal system that are geared towards him.
[23:45:00]
But in the state system, he's a target. And he, with the notoriety of his parents' wealth, will be extorted and used for the rest of his life.
COATES: Sam Mangel, thank you so much for joining. We'll see what's ahead. Of course, he is and does reserve and have the presumption of innocence as the suspect in this case. We will follow along. Thank you.
Up next, we'll break away from our special coverage because Daniel Penny, he is speaking out for the very first time since the jury cleared him in the death of Jordan Neely. The former Marine veteran now explaining why he said he had to act. The panel is back with me for that conversation next.
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COATES: Daniel Penny speaking out for the first time since his acquittal and the chokehold death of Jordan Neely on a New York City subway last year. Here's a preview of the interview set to be released tomorrow.
[23:50:00]
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JEANINE PIRRO, FOX NEWS'S "THE FIVE" CO-HOST: What in you caused you to want to get involved?
DANIEL PENNY, FORMER U.S. MARINE CORPS VETERAN, ACQUITTED IN DEATH OF JORDAN NEELY: I mean, I'm not a confrontational person. I don't really extend myself. I think this type of thing is very uncomfortable. All this attention and limelight is very uncomfortable. And I would prefer without it. I didn't want any type of attention or praise, and I still don't.
The guilt I would have felt if someone did get hurt, if he did do what he was threatening to do, would never be able to live with myself. And I'll take a million court appearances and people calling me names and people hating me just to keep one of those people from getting hurt or killed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Back with me now, retired NYP detective David Sarni, CNN legal analyst Joey Jackson, criminal defense attorney Arthur Aidala, and former NYPD detective Tom Verni. Tom, let me turn to you. I wonder what your reaction is to his first statement about the attacks that he has received verbally, but also the motivation.
VERNI: Well, anyone that ever acts in a situation like this, back in the day, we had Bernie Goetz on the subway, right? The subway shooter. So, any type of vigilantism is always going to get a higher level of attention than anything else.
We've all probably been in a situation where we've been on a subway and someone is acting irrational and potentially even dangerous. And then we're all thinking to ourselves, oh, what -- should I do something? Is that guy going to do something? Is that lady going to do something? Because we're all now in a state of fear on different levels as to, is that person not going to harm me or somebody else?
So, I understand the fascination with this case because, again, for those of us that have ridden the subways in New York City, where there's a lot of mentally ill people hanging out in the subways these days, we all have to think about things like this.
He decided to take actions, you know. And, you know, the question is, was he overzealous in the action that he took? I don't think he meant to kill him. I don't think that's what his intent was. He meant to subdue him. But in the course of subduing him, you know, we have someone who died. So, that's the back and forth.
COATES: There is a point in the interview, and I want to play this clip, where he talks about why he felt he couldn't release Jordan Neely during the course of that chokehold. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PENNY: He was just threatening to kill people. He was threatening to go to jail forever, go to jail for the rest of his life. And now, we're -- I'm on the ground with him. I'm on my back, in a very vulnerable position. If I just would have let go now, he turns --
PIRRO: Why is that a vulnerable position?
PENNY: If I just let him go, I'm on my back, now he can just turn around and start doing what he said to me.
PIRRO: Killing.
PENNY: Killing, hurting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Arthur, what do you make of that?
AIDALA: Well, um, you know, I was with Daniel Penny yesterday. I was with his whole legal team right after the verdict. And what you see right there is kind of how he is. He's a pretty soft-spoken guy. I mean, I don't know how much weight he has lost from last May until now, but he's very slight as well, Daniel Penny. He's definitely not like a buff, big guy. He clearly would love to turn back the hands of time. And got involved, but let go earlier, and not cause the death of another human being.
COATES: Did he say that to you?
AIDALA: That was obvious. I've been in touch with him and his legal team throughout the whole thing. And he -- and even the night that it happened or the day that it happened, when he was interviewed, he didn't even know anyone died.
So, I mean, there was -- look, the jury heard all the evidence. They heard from the people on the subway. They heard the fear for the third party that he was trying to protect. And they came -- they came to their conclusion that it was the lowest count, it's an e-felony, the lowest one, that he wasn't even careless in what he did. He did -- the defense of justification worked. And it was interesting because, Laura, there was a big decision whether to put him on the stand or not.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
AIDALA: And Tom Kenniff and Steve Raiser are his lawyers. They did an excellent job. Ultimately, decided not to do it. And so, the jury never heard what Jeanine Pirro just heard.
COATES: There was a video that played right after he was detained by officers. But, Joey, would you put him on the stand or that would be enough?
JACKSON: So, I think you know, again, Tom Kenniff, Steven Raiser, great attorneys, and I think they made the right call. It's always a crap shoot when you put a defendant on. Things can fall apart very quickly. But he did testify. Right? Let's be clear. What do I mean by that? Through the video, he testified and the jurors got to see who he was. His demeanor, his comportment, how he -- you know, what he really felt about it.
I think, at the end of the day, there were two things that really meant a lot. The first thing was, I think the jury concluded, often mentioned justification. It's what we call self-defense, right? If you've been on a subway, you raise the issue. There are people -- I'm going to kill somebody, what's going on?
[23:55:00]
And I think people really felt that he was acting to protect others. And the people and witnesses who were there said as much. So, I think the jury was really wedded to the notion that he was defending people and he was doing it in a reasonable way.
The other thing, Laura, that I think came out during the trial, was whether or not he really caused the death, right? Remember, there was inconsistent testimony. You had the medical examiner.
COATES: The battle of the experts.
JACKSON: Correct. Right. The prosecution puts on the medical exam and they say, oh, the choke caused it. And then, of course, the defense saying, wait, it didn't cause, it was, you know, the synthetic marijuana in the system, it was a schizophrenic, it was the other thing. There was a lot of reasonable doubt in the case.
At the end of the day, though, I think people can relate to what he did in this case. And there are a lot of people, Laura, who felt that it shouldn't even been prosecuted, right? But what you feel, it should have been or should not have been, at the end of the day, we respect the jury system. Even though I know his father is very hurt and said it was, you know, a scam or some such thing, but this is our system of justice.
COATES: We will see how justice continues with another very important matter happening this week as well. Thank you to everyone for joining tonight. And thank you all for watching. "Anderson Cooper 360" is next.
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