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Laura Coates Live
Trump's Sweeping Tariffs Spark Chaos and Recession Fears; Far- Right Activist Got Trump to Fire Nat Sec Officials; Judge Eyes Holding Trump Officials in Contempt; Pentagon Launches First Probe into Signal-Gate; Obama Photobombs Family's Cherry Blossom Photoshoot. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired April 03, 2025 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00]
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: -- Snow White.
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know? I --
UNKNOWN: Well played.
UNKNOWN: It's a soft side, Scott. I didn't know you have soft side.
PHILLIP: Yeah.
JENNINGS: Yeah.
(LAUGHTER)
Great film. I think it could be done.
UNKNOWN: Well played. Well played.
PHILLIP: The live action stuff, I think, is -- is very tricky. It's hard to make that stuff work with classics. So, that's -- that's all I got to say about that. Everyone, thank you very much. I'm going to go watch some movies tonight, apparently, because I have a lot to see.
Thanks for watching "NewsNight." You can catch me any time on your favorite social media platforms X, Instagram, and TikTok. "Laura Coates Live" is right now.
LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Ouch. That's the feeling tonight for anyone with a 401K. Because let's face it, the markets, they got beat up today. The economy, it got rattled. And companies, well, they got the wind knocked right out of them.
Trump's massive tariffs delivered the bruising as, frankly, many had predicted that it would. And depending on who you ask, it could have been worse. You're saying something because the Dow, the S&P 500, and the Nasdaq, all of those faced their worst day since 2020. Two and a half trillion dollars wiped out. Here's how one trader on the New York Stock Exchange described it. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETER TUCHMAN, TRADER, NEW YORK STOCK CHANGE: The mood was really -- it's not that often that you really get a sense. I would think the last time was probably the beginning days of COVID, where you just sort of had a darkness around the room. And today was clearly that. It was just nothing but, you know, blood in the streets, in my opinion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Companies, they're also feeling it. Just listen to the head of Restoration Hardware who saw his company shares plunge during an earnings call.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GARY FRIEDMAN, CEO, RH (voice-over): Oh (bleep). Okay. I just looked at the screen. I hadn't looked at it. You know, it got hit when I think the tariffs came out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: That's a real reaction. But the president's reaction? Well, he's not sweating it. For him, that ouch, all that red, all that OS moments, it's going to get better from here. In his view, America is a patient that just got rolled out of the operating room.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: It was a sick patient that went through an operation on liberation day. And it's going to be -- it's going to be a booming country. The operation is over. And now, we let it settle in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: He's even throwing out a timeline for how long it's going to take to heal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Well, let's say it's a two-year process. Remember, there are no tariffs if you build your plant or you build your product, make your product in the U.S. And so, a lot of people and then there's going to be a transition period because they're going to be building instead of paying tariffs to some other place.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: That's a luxury. You have two years for your finances to stabilize. Well, not only that. He says the surgery equipped the US with a powerful weapon, leverage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Every country has called us. That's the beauty of what we do. We put ourselves in the driver's seat. For instance, with TikTok, as an example, we have a situation with TikTok where China will probably say we'll approve a deal, but will you do something on the tariff? The tariffs give us great power to negotiate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: The power to negotiate. I wonder. He's even suggesting that tariffs could be dropped if the deal is right. But others on Trump's economy, well, a very different message.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETER NAVARRO, WHITE HOUSE SENIOR COUNSELOR FOR TRADE AND MANUFACTURING: Let me -- let me make this very clear. This is not a negotiation. This is not that. This is a national emergency.
SEC. HOWARD LUTNICK, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF COMMERCE: The president is not going to back off.
PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: So, he's not going to back off on what he announced yesterday.
LUTNICK: He's not going to back off.
BROWN: That's cemented.
LUTNICK: He is not backing off.
BROWN: Nothing could change that.
LUTNICK: But countries can fix their tariffs, their non-tariff trade barriers, which are much, much rougher.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Now, I'm no doctor, but I think it's safe to say that a patient might feel more at ease if the surgical team was all on the same page. And as far as bringing back manufacturing to mend America's wounds --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD QUEST, CNN ANCHOR: Those are jobs that he's hoping to bring back that should not come back to the United States. Why? Because the U.S. is now a digital economy. AI, it needs to have a new skill set of advanced economics and advanced industry, not those older jobs of manufacturing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: You know, economists aren't even buying the numbers behind the tariffs themselves. You know that chart that President Trump held up yesterday with the new tariffs? Well, the former treasury secretary, Larry Summers, who called out the Biden administration on inflation, that same one, he said it's clear that Trump's team computed the numbers without using actual tariff data. [23:05:08]
He calls it the economics equivalent of what creationism is to biology. Even people who are pro-tariff and against free trade, well, even they are bashing Trump's plan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM CRAMER, CNBC HOST: I feel like a sucker tonight because I am not a free trader, and I do not believe in free trade. And I was just as tough, if not tougher than his people, but they screwed it up. This is what they came up with. Jeez, come on! Have some gumption. Have some math.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Have some math. With me now, Barry Ritholtz, chairman and chief investment officer of Ritholtz Wealth Management. Also, David Gura, anchor for Bloomberg News. Glad to have you both here while we're taking a kind of a postmortem, although I'm not sure we're in the beginning or the middle or totally not the end.
But, David, let me ask you this. The president says the healing, the healing has begun. He thinks it's actually going well. It would seem to many that that's just not the case at all. Can you give us a sense of how bad today was?
DAVID GURA, ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT, BLOOMBERG NEWS: Hugely dramatic. And I recall being on the floor of the New York stock Exchange back in 2020, the peak of COVID, and feeling that dark mood that Peter (ph) was describing just a moment ago. And this was analogous. We hadn't seen this precipitous as steep a drop as we saw today since -- since then. This is the biggest drop we've seen in stock since 2020, the height of the COVID crisis, and that was not a manufactured crisis as this one is.
And so, listening to the president talk about the situation here in a clinical term about this patient and the surgery that's underway, we're definitely in medias res. This is not anywhere near over.
You know, take it at face. He's saying, don't worry about it, the indications are good. Obviously, you look at the markets in the U.S. and around the world, there's no indication that that's the case. You can look at stocks trading in Asia overnight. The selloff continues. That extends to bonds and metals and currencies. None of that is looking good. And then you look at the kind of the economic indicators and what economists are saying about the prospects here. Laura, that's very grim as well.
I mean, all the predictions by and large from a mainstream economist, the consensus prediction is this is going to have a dramatic effect on the U.S. economy and the global economy as well. There's a lot more talk about the prospects of being a recession here in the U.S. There were many fragile economies around the world, Europe in particular. This puts them even more up against the ropes now as this uncertainty looms. COATES: Barry, I know you're nodding along as you're listening to what David is saying, but I want you to listen to what the commerce secretary, Howard Lutnick, had to say today. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LUTNICK: Let Donald Trump run the global economy. He knows what he's doing. He has been talking about it for 35 years. You got to trust Donald Trump in the White House. That's why they put him there. Let him fix it.
BROWN: Right. I understand --
LUTNICK: Okay? It's broken. Let him fix it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: How do you think that message lands with, say, investors or business owners? I mean, is there a reason to certainly trust him and give him the benefit out or really maybe give him that leash?
BARRY RITHOLTZ, CHAIRMAN AND CIO, RITHOLTZ WEALTH MANAGEMENT: There -- there's so much stuff to unpack with that. First, the economy is broken. Donald Trump inherited a very robust economy with strong wages and -- and very low unemployment and robust consumer spending. And what we've seen happen is that -- the -- the goals of the tariffs are sort of ambiguous. We've heard a bunch of different explanations over the past year, and it seems to be constantly morphing. And the way it has been implemented, at least thus far, has been very clumsy and chaotic and opaque.
And so, what they've done is freeze consumers in place, freeze corporations in terms of their long-term spending, their CapEx spending in place. And right now, what -- this is showing up and is all soft data. Meaning, we do sentiment surveys, we look at plans to spend, plans to hire, things like that.
And we're seeing a big downtick in the soft data that is starting to bleed into the hard data. When you see companies like Delta say, hey, we are seeing a decrease in bookings down the road, and when they preannounce a profit warning and lower guidance, hey, that means this sentiment is starting to show up in actual economic data.
When you see FedEx says, we're shipping less packages because consumers are buying less goods and services, what started out as a, hey, we don't know how this is going to work out, this seems a little chaotic, has kind of frozen the corporate sector and the household and consumer sector in place. Hey, I don't know if I'm going have a job six months from now. Maybe it's not the best time to book our trip to Disneyland.
COATES: You know, David, speaking of the corporate sector, you have the automaker, Stellantis, and they are temporarily laying off some 900 workers at five different U.S. plants in response to these tariffs.
[23:10:08]
How much risk is there now for companies to feel this squeeze and to cut jobs if these tariffs stay in place?
GURA: Well, picking up on what Barry said, I think we're already starting to see companies adjust and prepare for what this is likely to mean. So, Stellantis is doing that at its plants in Canada. And, of course, you look at the auto industry. So many cars are manufactured in the United States, Canada, and Mexico. There aren't really that many cars manufactured here completely. So, these companies are beginning to adjust.
And I think listening to the commerce secretary, Howard Lutnick, today, he did a round of interviews, there was this element of distance, picking up on what Barry said about what the goals of this are going to be. But he also talked about his vision for what this is going to mean, that we're going to have factories with a lot of robots doing work that might be done elsewhere, and that's going to be a way that we take advantage of advancements in AI.
I struggle to understand how doing that is going to employ Americans and bring these jobs back to America if that's the kind of manufacturing that he envisioned. So, you know, I think that the market was worried about uncertainty going into this. And now, that persists. You know, what's the uncertainty going to be with the market and the economy? There's this added uncertainty about sort of what the plan is going forward here.
So, to hear Donald Trump -- President Trump in that plane going to Florida talking about a two-year time horizon here, that's a very long time. That's a very long-time horizon. And yet it takes so long to build factories in the U.S. And to kind of implement what he wants to do in real terms is all but an impossibility. And so, I think that's the major uncertainty now. What happens next? Where do we go from here?
COATES: Barry Ritholtz, thank you. David Gura, you as well. Thank you both. I want to talk more about this with White House correspondent for Reuters, excuse me, Jeff Mason, CNN political commentator and Republican strategist Brad Todd, and former Harris-Walz campaign senior spokesperson, Adrienne Elrod.
Let me begin with you, Jeff, on this. And I -- first of all, I keep having that number two years in my mind for the average person, how long it takes to build up wealth, let alone 401K investments and beyond, and to see the downturns. That seems particularly out of touch to suggest people have either the ability to wait, not just the emotional patience. But Trump officials are out in force, and they are saying overwhelmingly, trust Trump, trust him. He's not backing down. But there are some conflicting messages from the White House. What are you hearing?
JEFF MASON, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, REUTERS: All right, so a couple of things. One, to your first point, think also of seniors.
COATES: Yeah. MASON: You know, senior citizens who are looking at their retirement benefits and retirement accounts. It's different if you're not retired or got some time to see your accounts kind of --
COATES: Right.
MASON: -- come back. It's -- it's not the same if you need that money now. Secondly, I'd like to just look at the politics. Two -- two years is his timeline. Well, guess what? The midterms are in about 18, 19 months.
COATES: Sure.
MASON: So, that's less than two years. If by the fall of 2026, we're in 2025 now, right, he doesn't have -- the economy is not in -- if it's in a recession or if it's not in a recession, if these tariffs have not come up with some of the benefits that he has promised, then he's going to have a hard time politically holding on to the House and holding on to the Senate. And that fear is making its way through the Republican hallways right now.
COATES: Well, in one of those hallways is Senator Ted Cruz. And he is a staunch Trump ally. There's no doubt about it. But he had this to say today, rejecting any kind of spin on what tariffs might be. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): If the result is our trading partners jack up their tariffs and we have high tariffs everywhere, I think that is a bad outcome for America. Tariffs are a tax on consumers, and I'm not a fan of jacking up taxes on American consumers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: I mean, hearing that from Senator Ted Cruz, obviously, it's not in line with what Trump is saying as a beautiful word. Is there a political toll this will take on Trump or Cruz?
BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, I think President Trump actually has a risk calculus going on with two different groups of people. You know, the president's ability to set tariffs is determined by the Congress. Really, the Constitution gives that job to the Congress. But over many decades, starting with the 1930s, Congress has delegated that job to the president. So, on the one hand, President Trump has to keep people like Ted Cruz having confidence that his policy is going to work and let Ted Cruz take that risk tolerance.
But on the other hand, he's got our trading partners. You know, let's -- you talked about cars. In Germany, one out of every four cars made shipped to the United States. German automakers cannot live under a high tariff regime. They need to sell those cars in the United States to keep those factories open. So, what's their risk tolerance? Well, right now, their tariffs were four times what the United States tariffs are on cars going the other direction. COATES: Hmmm.
TODD: So, president Trump got to keep the Republicans in Congress strong long enough to give him the threshold to negotiate with Germany, in countries like Germany.
[23:15:03]
And ag products in Canada, for instance, their ag products, they put a 14% tariff on ours, we put 4% on theirs.
COATES: Yeah.
TODD: So, we have a lot of leverage, and there's a lot of room to bring things down to help the American economy. They got to do it in a way that's -- that's serious enough and fast enough to keep Congress in line.
COATES: Well, Adrienne, if that's the republican strategy, what's the democratic response?
ADRIENNE ELROD, FORMER SENIOR SPOKESPERSON, HARRIS-WALZ CAMPAIGN: Well, I get a couple of things. I mean, number one, I think this is actually galvanizing Democrats more than we've seen for a long time -- in a long time since Trump has become president. It's not just Democrats. It's concerned Americans.
I mean, it doesn't matter who you voted for at the election. If you're watching your 401K go down, if you are, you know, not able to take your family on a vacation because you're worried about losing your job or how this is going to affect your -- your pocketbook and your bottom line --
COATES: The seniors that we are talking about.
ELROD: Or the seniors. I mean, I have -- my parents are in their late 70s, and they're looking at their 401K and saying, my God, like, am I going to have to work a few more years? I mean, we are seeing this -- it's affecting so many people across the board.
And I think the other challenge this administration is having among a sea of challenges is they can't explain this policy. They can't, not even this economic team which, by the way, in a sea of some, for lack of a better term, crazy nominees that he put in the Cabinet, his economic team kind of came in with some goodwill. Like, you know, great experience, Howard Lutnick, Scott Bessent, like, good experience, but they have not been able to explain this policy. You saw Howard Lutnick going on T.V. telling Pam Brown just to trust Trump.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
ELROD: If that's where you're going to, if that's your defense at this stage of the game where we're just starting, he's just starting these terror policies, that is not a good place for them to be in. And, again, it's one of those things where it does not matter who you voted for. If you're looking at your bottom line and your savings go down, just like we saw to a lot -- it happened to a lot of people today, that's not a good start.
TODD: I think there is a risk. I think there is -- there is a risk about mixed messages, and I think some of that may be good cop, bad cop that's happening. The only way to sell this to the American people is fairness. Do you think that German cars should be tariffed at 25% what American cars are going to Germany?
ELROD: Yeah, they're not doing that. Maybe you should go work for Trump in the White House and explain this more effectively.
TODD: That is the way to sell this policy.
COATES: Why aren't they selling the policy? Why is it not cohesive?
MASON: I mean, I don't have an answer to that other than to say that the president is not always on message with the people around him. I mean, the president, at the end of the day, sets the message. The -- one of the mixed messages was about deals. The -- his advisers were saying this is not about making deals, and then the president said on Air Force One, happy to make deals. And people are calling. And we're going to use this as leverage.
Now, I think it's pretty clear that that's exactly what he's doing. I would listen to President Trump on that. I mean, he's the one driving the train. But, it -- it's -- it's -- there are certainly some mixed messages coming out of -- of his White House.
TODD: And the deals are coming. Canada has offered to drop their tariffs down to nothing. Israel is stripping theirs down to nothing. India says they may drop theirs. I mean, the deals will come if you can keep Congress in line for a little while.
MASON: Portray that as a really big success, but the economic damage that may also happen --
TODD: That's --
MASON: -- that's a political risk.
TODD: There's a risk -- there's a risk on both sides.
COATES: Oh, gosh. The American electorate as collateral damage. We'll see how it works out. Thanks, everyone.
Still ahead, Donald Trump's decades-long obsession, frankly, with tariffs and why it's critical to understanding what he's trying to accomplish today. And later, an apprentice-style firing actually inside the White House reportedly urged on by far-right activist.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COATES: Well, President Trump's fixation on tariffs and his perception of unfair trade agreements, it goes back decades. Listen to Trump back in the 80s and the 90s.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We let Japan come in and dump everything right into our markets and everything. It's not free trade.
So, the fact is that you don't have free trade. We think of it as free trade, but you right now don't have free trade.
The fact is that the world is ripping off this country.
Not an isolationist. What I am, though, is I think that you have to be treated fairly by other countries. If other countries aren't going to treat you fairly, Larry, I think that those countries should be -- they should suffer the consequences (ph).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Nice set, Larry. Now, in the year 2025, during his second presidential term, Trump's vision for fair trade has materialized. But as the moment passed, with the emergence of advanced technology, with AI, are tariffs the right tool?
Joining us now is Democratic governor from Colorado and former businessman, Jared Polis. Governor, thank you for being here. You know, President Trump, he has been consistent, to say the least, with his views on trade for literally decades. Now, he's imposing them in a big way. Do you think he's wrong to do so?
GOV. JARED POLIS (D-CO): It's interesting to hear the flawed thinking from the 80s and the 90s that goes into these devastating policies that are destroying manufacturing and jobs and costing the average American family $2,100 more.
He seems not to realize that trade is not a winner and loser situation. It's a game of two winners. Both parties emerge better off from a trade. That's what inherently a trade is. It means I want what you have, you want what I have, we both have more utility, we both have more wealth by making this trade. So, trade is inherently good, makes both parties better off.
And in his vision of winners and losers -- really sort of informs why he's taking these draconian steps that are not only devastating our economy, but also devastating other countries across the world.
COATES: I mean, he's arguing, though, that tariffs are going to revive manufacturing.
[23:25:00]
He's in it from -- said it from decades ago. But, of course, decades ago, we weren't in the year 2025, and the idea of AI and automation that has already drastically changed the landscape. Would those things actually drastically change manufacturing and -- and risk taking away these jobs? I mean, he's promising. Is that really what's going to happen?
POLIS: Look, people get that, and they understand why directly it increased cost $2,100. What's very important to understand is why tariffs hurt and destroy manufacturing, including advanced AI manufacturing.
When you look at what goes into AI as an example, computer servers, processors, guess what? Those parts are made all over the world, the components come from all over the world, and -- and major AI and data processing facilities simply will be put up in other countries that aren't subject to these tariffs rather than here.
So, whether it's advanced AI manufacturing, robotics, whether it's conventional line manufacturing, because of the global nature of the need for parts and supplies as well as desire to export to global markets, America is going to lose out for the manufacturing jobs of today and the manufacturing jobs of tomorrow if we continue these tariffs.
COATES: I want to focus on Colorado, in particular, where you, of course, are the governor. I mean, Colorado has a $40 billion agriculture business with 1.6 billion -- excuse me -- in exports and more than 7 billion in manufacturing exports as well as major companies. You got Anheuser-Busch. You got PepsiCo and beyond. What was sort of farmers there and businesses?
POLIS: You know, we're -- I'm -- I'm already hearing so much about the impacts firsthand from our largest export, agriculture, our biggest trading partners, Canada and Mexico, but even -- even companies and sectors you don't think about.
We have a thriving microbrewery sector here in Colorado. And guess what? I was visiting, you know, a craft brewery the other day. Their aluminum cans and their barley were from Canada. They were worried about absolutely, you know, devastating their profit margin and having to raise prices. And that's exactly what we're seeing. It's inflationary. It costs families money, damaging to agriculture.
And also, frankly, because of the reputational damage to United States, it's damaging to our other key sector in Colorado, outdoor tourism and recreation. Right? We have tourists from around the world who come here and spend time. We're already seeing -- in addition to the direct damage from the tariffs, we mentioned that bookings are down. Delta Airlines made that announcement earlier. You're seeing that reputational damage carry through with less people wanting to come here and spend their money because they simply don't agree with what's going on.
COATES: So, as governor, what can you help -- what can you do to help cushion the blow?
POLIS: You know what? I'm -- I'm glad to see that there was a bipartisan bill in the Senate dropped today. Senator Grassley and -- and Senator Murray, Democrat and Republican, saying Congress needs to reassert itself here. The president should not have the unilateral discretion to tank the economy as this president is doing with the costly tax increase that he launched today. At the state level, you know, we're doing everything we can to try to inspire confidence. But, ultimately, tariffs and federal taxes are prerogative of the federal government.
I really hope that this president finds an offramp to this. It's not going to restore all the damage because the rest of the world is going to worry, and they'll still delay investment because they don't know what side of the bed he's going to wake up on. But, please, let's limit the damage, stop this tariff war, end this, and let's move forward and grow our economy rather than deliberately set out to sabotage our own economy.
COATES: Governor Jared Polis, thank you so much. Up next --
POLIS: Thank you, Laura.
COATES: -- we've got the return of a different Laura, Laura Loomer. The conspiracy theorist who got sidelined during the campaign will now back in the Oval and bending Trump's ear. The enough influence to get top national security staffers fired. Plus, the first official investigation to Signal-gate officially gets launched. But will it actually amount to anything?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COATES: One of MAGA's own putting Trump world on notice tonight by flexing her power inside the Oval Office. Sources tell CNN that far- right activist Laura Loomer met with Trump on Wednesday. We're told that she urged him to fire several officials that she deemed to be disloyal. And guess what? He did, including at least three staffers from the National Security Council. Now, Trump denies it was because of her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Laura Loomer is a very good patriot. She is a very strong person.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): Did she have anything to do with the NSC that were ousted?
TRUMP: No. We're going to let go of people, people that we don't like or people that we don't think can do the job or people that may have loyalties to somebody else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Well, if Loomer sounds familiar, it's because we've covered her before when she was hanging around the Trump campaign. Right? She has called 911 -- 9/11, excuse me, an inside job, and once described herself as a proud Islamophobe. Even some of Trump's own allies see her as extreme.
Back with me now is Jeff Mason, White House correspondent for Reuters, and Jamil Jaffer, the founder and executive director of the National Security Institute at George Mason University. Glad to have you both with me on this. It's curious, Jeff, because what does it say about this White House that Laura Loomer would have this level and type of influence?
[23:35:00]
MASON: Well, good question. I mean, it certainly says that she still has a line into Trump. I'm not -- I think it probably says more about that than it says specifically about the White House because she has had trouble. I think she has complained publicly about not getting access to the new media seat in the briefing room, which tells me that there are some people in the White House around Trump who aren't wanting her to have the influence that she does or not having any of the access that she apparently got this week.
But she has obviously maintained an open line of some kind with the president and got to see him. And normally, when he says something like, no, she didn't or this person didn't influence his decision, we can probably read between the lines and assume that it's the opposite.
COATES: Well, the fact that it is the opposite and she did have this influence -- I mean, the idea of an outsider, even somebody who had access to president, having the ability to influence a firing decision of members of the National Security Council and staffers, that's almost beyond too many.
JAMIL JAFFER, FORMER ASSOCIATE WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL TO GEORGE W. BUSH, FOUNDER AND EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL SECURITY INSTITUTE AT GEORGE MASON UNIVERSITY: I mean, it's crazy. You think about who these people are. Maggie Dougherty, a decade over a decade with Marco Rubio in the Senate, she served for two years in the Trump administration, at U.S. UN with Nikki Haley.
Brian Walsh, almost two decades at the Senate Intelligence Committee for Marco Rubio, other Republican senators, staff director for the Republicans at the Senate Intelligence Committee. And these are -- I mean, these are just serious people. Right? David Priess served for four years in the Trump administration at the State Department, including as a deputy assistant secretary in the first Trump admin.
So, these are -- these are hardcore, serious, conservative Republicans. And Laura Loomer, a 9/11 truther and an Islamophobe is coming to the White House and getting them fired, I mean, this is amateur hour.
COATES: Well, what does it say about Mike Waltz, though? Does he not have a lot of power over who is his staff and whether they can retain their positions? I mean, is this because of Signal-gate?
MASON: I mean, Mike Waltz is in a -- my understanding is Mike Waltz is in a somewhat precarious position right now. The president has supported him, has decided not to let him go because of the Signal issue, but he definitely ruffles some feathers among senior leadership at the White House because of that, and that's kind of lowered his political capital a little bit. I don't want to draw a direct link between that and what happened with these firings, but I think it's fair to assume that he doesn't have as much say as he might have before the Signal-gate happened.
COATES: Not just to say, but, I mean, how problematic is that he doesn't have much power to influence over his own staff and whether they can stay? I mean, that's pretty startling that in his position, he could not essentially save somebody if he didn't want them to go.
JAFFER: What's interesting is he might not even have known. You know how President Trump rolls. I mean, it's -- it's like Hunger Games in the White House. Right? He hears from Laura Loomer. Five and seven people are fired. You don't even know what's happening. Right I mean, you know, Don McGahn in the first Trump administration once famously said, he didn't know he had been named White House counsel. He heard it from a press release.
MASON: You know, one thing I'm going to add to that, though, is that the Trump 2.0 has been different in many ways from Trump 1.0 and that there hasn't been as much palace intrigue. And it seems to be creeping in.
JAFFER: Yeah.
MASON: So, like, they had this first couple months of executive order, executive order, executive order. They had it all planned out. And there weren't a whole bunch of leaks about what was going on behind the scenes. Now, it seems like maybe some of those cracks are beginning to show.
COATES: What do you attribute to the to the lessened palace in intrigue? Increased competence, familiarity with the structure or greater, you know, loyalty within the ranks not to leak or share information?
MASON: I attribute it at least in part to Susie Wiles in an operation that's a little bit more disciplined. You know, she has been a chief of staff with whom he has had more of a -- more of a history, thanks to the campaign, than he had with Reince Priebus, for example, in the beginning of his last administration. And more experience. I mean, the people who've come in there, Stephen Miller, his other deputy chiefs of staff, they worked in the first administration. They knew exactly what they wanted to get done this time around, and they didn't want the distraction of the palace intrigue.
COATES: Well, the White House is saying, speaking of Signal-gate, case closed in terms of an investigation. But then the inspector general, the acting inspector general for the Pentagon, says that he will review the defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, and the use of Signal. Does that go anywhere, you think, that investigation?
JAFFER: Well, you know, who knows? I mean, acting inspector general because, of course, they fired the real inspector general --
COATES: Right.
JAFFER: -- and they fired a bunch of them. So, if he does -- if it does start going somewhere and the president wants to maintain his team, he might fire another inspector general. He just fired today. We're hearing just now. He fired the director of NSA and the deputy director of NSA in one shot. This is an -- this is a four-star general. Right? I mean, this is unheard of type behavior in the national security community. You just don't see this kind of thing happening, you know. And look. President Trump breaks a lot of rules. This is -- this is getting crazy.
COATES: Jeff Mason, Jamil Jaffer, thank you both.
Breaking news, South Korea's Impeached President, Yoon Suk-yeol, has been removed from office.
[23:40:00]
These are live pictures from South Korea where people have taken to the streets both in support and against the decision. You will recall the now former president declared martial law in South Korea back in December. Officers flooded the streets of the nation's capital trying to stop lawmakers from gathering and clashing with protesters. That declaration of martial law failed, resulting in his impeachment.
Up next, he's the judge that Trump world wants to impeach, Judge James Boasberg, the one who ordered those deportation flights to turn back around, only to have the administration defy him. Well, now, he might be close to punching back in a major way if they really did. But will he do it? And later, the inside story behind this viral Barack Obama photobomb. The parents will join me to explain it all.
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[23:45:00]
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COATES: So, will he or won't he? U.S. District Judge James Boasberg inching closer to finding Trump officials in contempt, saying during a tense hearing, there was a -- quote -- "fair likelihood the government did not turn around planes transporting Venezuelan migrants to El Salvador despite his orders that they do so." But no resolution on the next steps until next week at the earliest. One thing is for sure, over 200 Venezuelan migrants remain in a legal limbo at El Salvador's notorious prison.
I want to bring in CNN legal analyst and former assistant director for legislative affairs at ICE, Elliot Williams, who strikes me as the perfect person to help us break all of this down because you certainly heard these tense exchanges between Boasberg and the government. And the attorney for the government refused to tell the judge what he wanted to know. That's what he wanted to hear, what he wanted to know in this instance. So, what would contempt look like if, in fact, the judge decides that they did violate his order? ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Right. Not as much as people think. No one is going to jail. No one is getting locked up for contempt here. Now, if the government is held in contempt, the judge would try to find out who was at fault. Was it an individual? Was it a group of individuals? And you really might just sanction the government.
It's a slap on the wrist more than anything else. Now, there could be money -- monetary fines, but even that would be pretty extreme for the federal government. So, there aren't a ton. When we think of contempt, you'd think of locking somebody up. I think you're probably not going to see that here.
COATES: Which does strike you as limitation on the judge's power other than to shame, essentially.
WILLIAMS: Yeah.
COATES: And yet, you know, a government attorney, statements they make in a court in any individual case can also bind the government more broadly.
WILLIAMS: Yeah.
COATES: So, things that he might be saying might end up being problematic to a future case --
WILLIAMS: Uh-hmm.
COATES: -- where the government does not want that position.
WILLIAMS: Absolutely. And remember, contempt isn't the only thing that the judge can do here. The judge can also compel action from the government. Now --
COATES: Like what?
WILLIAMS: Like turn the planes around and bring them back here. Now, that didn't happen once before. But if the judge truly wished to direct the government to bring people back or take efforts to negotiate with the government of El Salvador, the judge could try to do that. But certainly, contempt is the thing where the judge is punishing a party for something they've done wrong.
COATES: Even the government's jurisdiction questions come in. Right? If someone has already gone, putting that toothpaste back into the tube is really the rub in all this that the judge is trying to work through.
But also, there's the question people are seeing. They're seeing what happened to the Tufts students. They're seeing the video footage of her being approached by people who are identifying themselves as ICE agents, it seems, and she is being taken away. We've seen these multiple times now. A big question people are asking is, are these ICE agents able to move detainees from detention facility to facility without having to check with the court first? WILLIAMS: Immigration authorities have really broad authority, too.
COATES: Which surprises people.
WILLIAMS: It really does surprise people. And frankly, far more authority than the police would to arrest somebody on the street for committing a crime. Certainly, if they have a suspicion that someone is unlawfully present in the country, they can usually apprehend them. And once they're apprehended, then they can move them around the country.
Now, I think the problem that we've been seeing here over these last few months is people being apprehended without much explanation as to why, where they're going, what they've done wrong, or even if they're unlawfully present in the country. So, for instance, this question of gang members --
COATES: Uh-hmm.
WILLIAMS: -- the government sort of waved a wand and said that, you know, we believe you're a member of the Salvadoran -- get this -- horrible Salvadoran gang --
COATES: Yeah.
WILLIAMS: -- but without much evidence. And so, they can kind of do that. It would be better. And quite frankly, this is why we're seeing a lot of these lawsuits trying to crack down the government and hold them to their burden of at least saying why they're doing what they're doing.
COATES: And also, the question of allegations by some attorneys of these detainees about forum shopping by the government, that there is a decisive intention to go to what they perceive as far friendlier jurisdictions or judges who will bend to their whim.
WILLIAMS: Well, the most American things in the world are mom, apple pie, and going to the court that you think you're going to win in. And look, litigants do it. The government does it, too. Some courts are more favorable to the government, the courts in Texas, and I think you're going to see that. There's nothing wrong about it. It's really just the system allows it. And assuming you have jurisdiction in a particular court, assuming the crime or the incident happened there or part of it did, you can file your suit there.
[23:50:04]
COATES: Yeah, if you had some basis to be there --
WILLIAMS: Yeah.
COATES: -- you could essentially look at that judge. We'll see if the question is, should people be able to perform --
WILLIAMS: Absolutely. Right.
COATES: Very different conversation. Elliot Williams, good to have you.
WILLIAMS: Always, Laura, thanks.
COATES: Thank you. Up next, the presidential photobomb seen around the world. Former President Barack Obama strolling right into one family's photoshoot. So, what are the parents going to do with this photo now? You know what? I think I'll ask them, next.
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COATES: It's the photobomb that has been taking the internet by storm and for all the right reasons. I want you to imagine this. You're taking your kids for a photo shoot by D.C.'s iconic cherry blossoms, and you set them up in front of the camera as the photographer tries to frame for you the perfect shot with the Washington Monument behind you. And just when you think you've captured that moment, a man in a baseball cap passes behind them.
Could have been anyone. Right? And it probably would have made you a little upset. On any other day, maybe, but not this particular day because it turns out that man in the baseball cap, that was the former president of the United States, Barack Obama. And just like that, an ordinary photo becomes extraordinary.
And then the story gets even better because then President Obama weighed in, writing, Preston and Belle, I hope you enjoyed peak bloom. My bad for stepping into the shot.
Well, joining us now, Preston and Belle's parents, Portia Moore and Damien Thomas. Hello there. This was so sweet. I tell you. Oh, my gosh. I can tell you, when I first saw this, it just warmed my heart.
Portia, I'll begin with you, mom, because I want to know when you realized that it was President Barack Obama who would walk behind them, and what was your reaction? Like, when you found out, wait, that's who it was?
PORTIA MOORE, PARENT OF CHILDREN IN PHOTO THAT OBAMA PHOTOBOMBED: That was exactly my reaction. So, my husband was trying to tell me but, of course, I'm, like, looking at my son making sure -- he's 20 months old, so I'm, like, do not run, please stay here, hold the hands with your sister. And so, once they finished the shoot, I picked him up, and I was, like, what did you say? And he was, like, that's President Obama. And I was, like, oh, my God.
(LAUGHTER)
I'm just happy I'm in his vicinity. Right? Like, I'm happy, like, we're, like, can even, like, look at him right there 20 feet away at this point in time. And then I ran to Brianna, our photographer. I'm, like, did we get him in the shoot? Like, did you catch him? And she, like, scrolls back on the camera, and we saw the picture. It was that picture that's on screen right now. We were, like, ah, we got it. We screamed. He didn't hear the scream. I don't even know. But were so excited that we actually got him in the photo. He didn't photobomb it at all. We love it.
COATES: Well, Secret Service is probably, like, somebody is screaming near the former president. What's happening right now? But, Damien, let me get you on this, because your kids -- frankly, Portia, Damien, your kids are adorable. Damien, how did they react when they learned President Obama was there? I mean, I'm guessing, by their ages, they were probably unfazed. It should have been bluey or someone else to them.
DAMIEN THOMAS, PARENT OF CHILDREN IN PHOTO THAT OBAMA PHOTOBOMBED: Yep. Pretty much. Preston still doesn't know who it is. And Belle, she definitely recognizes who the president is, ex- president, and she was just as excited as we were.
COATES: I learned that your four-year-old daughter, Belle, she had just learned about President Obama during Black History Month at school. What do you think this picture will mean to them as they grow up and realize why mommy was screaming that moment?
(LAUGHTER)
MOORE: Actually, that day, she was, like, you're going to tell everybody. I was, like, yes, I'm going to tell everyone, yes.
COATES: Yes.
MOORE: Yes, of course. It means so much because one, like, the picture for me is just so powerful. Right? You have an old -- I think he's -- like, two generations removed from them.
COATES: Hmmm.
MOORE: And so, you have felt, like, generations in that photo, that it just speaks values for, like, right now. Like, these children are able to be able to celebrate not only themselves, but hopefully their futures also. So, it just means so much for them in their future and look back on it. And, like, honestly, they'll probably show it to every friend they have when they go to high school, when they go to college, after that. Like I said, it's like a family heirloom to have forever.
COATES: It absolutely is. And, I mean, also, you have the perfect shot of the Washington Monument, the former president walking, the cherry blossoms, these two beautiful babies as well. We mentioned that President Obama actually responded when he learned about this viral photo, saying, my bad. If you could tell him one thing in response tonight, either of you, what would that be?
(LAUGHTER)
MOORE: It's not your bad at all. It's our good, actually.
(LAUGHTER) COATES: I like that. That's a t-shirt. It's our good. I like that. Okay.
MOORE: Yeah.
COATES: You know, you have this iconic photo. I know, for me, when I think about my kids, it's impossible to get that perfect photo come time for the holidays. And I'm, like, what picture will I use? Something tells me that you will have the perfect holiday photo already. Am I right?
MOORE: Twenty years to come.
THOMPSON: Yes, yes, yes.
MOORE: Yes.
COATES: I love it. Well, I'm so glad we have this.
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I mean, look at me. I'm part of it now. That we have this memory of our children.
MOORE: We love it.
COATES: It's so nice.
MOORE: You're going to get a card.
COATES: Well, good. I love the card. Thank you. I also like candy canes. Include them all. Portia, Damien, what a beautiful family, what a beautiful moment, and it's good to smile these days. Thank you both.
MOORE: Have a good night.
COATES: A new t-shirt. It's our good.
And some breaking news, just before we go, CNN has confirmed that the Trump administration has just fired the director of the National Security Agency, General Timothy Haugh. That's according to Senate and House intel members and former officials. This, suffice to say, is a major shakeup for the U.S. Intelligence Community. We're told that Haugh's deputy was also removed, but it's still unclear why they were let go. You can read much more on this on CNN.com.
Well, thank you all for watching. "Anderson Cooper 360" is next.
