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Laura Coates Live

Tariffs On China To Take Effect In Huge Escalation; Protester's Attorney Questioned And Detained At Airport; Senior IRS Officials Resign Over Immigration Data Request; New Biden Book Reveals All; Laura Coates Interviews CNN's Donie O'Sullivan. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired April 08, 2025 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Five-day work week has become extinct. How?

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(LAUGHTER)

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(CROSSTALK)

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"Laura Coates Live" starts right now.

LAURA COATES, CNN HOST: All right, so we were already in unknown territory for President Trump's trade war. Get ready to enter the economic equivalent of no man's land. His newest round of tariffs take effect an hour from now at 12:01, putting an eye watering 4% tax on all goods from China. That means what Americans pay for many everyday purchases could soon double.

Now that realization hit the markets today, completely evaporating what was a rally early in the morning. You see that big drop till the afternoon? That's because Trump's deadline for China to pull back its own tariffs on U.S. goods, well, they came and went. And now investors are bracing for what's next. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAN IVES, GLOBAL HEAD OF TECHNOLOGY RESEARCH, WEDBUSH SECURITIES: This is an economic Armageddon that's coming for the U.S. consumer and the economy. And I talk to tech executives. It's going to be around the world. And when it comes to U.S. tech, I mean, I think this is something that could send the U.S. tech industry back a decade. And I think recession is now starting to get baked into the market.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: But the president? Predictions of economic Armageddon aren't bothering him, even as China vows to fight to the end.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I really think we're helped a lot by the tariff situation that's going on, which is a good situation, not a bad. It's great. It's going to be legendary. You watch. Legendary in a positive way, I have to say. They've ripped us off left and right. But now, it's our turn to do the ripping. That's okay. We're going to make our country even stronger. Stronger than it ever was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: And he says that dozens of other nations are lining up to cut deals.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I'm telling you, these countries are calling us up, kissing my ass. They are -- they are dying to make a deal. Please, please, sir, make a deal. I'll do anything. I'll do anything, sir.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Yeah, that's probably exactly what other countries want to hear from the president of the United States. The White House even says that America's most beloved devices, well, they could be made here at home.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: But iPhones specifically, is that something that he thinks is the kind of technology that can move to the U.S.?

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Absolutely. He believes we have the labor, we have the workforce, we have the resources to do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Except not so fast.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) LAURA MARTIN, SENIOR ANALYST, NEEDHAM: Yeah, I don't think that's a thing. I mean, our estimates are there are going to be three X. Whatever you thought just quoted the price, three X that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: So, is America ready for a $3,500 iPhone? Not a bet I'd want to make. You know, it may not matter because market experts say that Trump's push to bring back manufacturing is a fantasy to begin with.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT GALLOWAY, PROFESSOR OF MARKETING, NYU STEM SCHOOL OF BUSINESS: The notion that all these great jobs are going to come flowing back to the U.S. is nonsense. America doesn't want these low-paying manufacturing jobs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: But even if manufacturing doesn't return to the United States, these tariffs are expected to raise price on everything, from eggs to cars. The entire strategy is even dividing the Trump administration. You take Elon Musk and Peter Navarro. You got Trump's cost cutter in chief now going on the offensive after his top trade adviser said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETER NAVARRO, WHITE HOUSE SENIOR COUNSELOR FOR TRADE AND MANUFACTURING: We all understand in the White House and the American people understand that Elon is a car manufacturer. But he's not a car manufacturer. He's a car assembler in many cases.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Well, Elon Musk has since gone a multi-post insult spree, calling Navarro a moron and dumber than a sack of bricks. One attack is even cruder than those. The White House press secretary, though, seemed to, well, endorse the entire feud.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEAVITT: Look, these are obviously two individuals who have very different views on trade and on tariffs. Boys will be boys, and we will let their public sparring continue. And you guys should all be very grateful that we have the most transparent administration in history.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Wall Street-types who've been complaining about the tariffs are now wondering, where is Congress? Former top official John Bolton, well, he wonders the same thing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOHN BOLTON, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR OF THE UNITED STATES: It simply makes no sense. And it's just sad and depressing that more Republicans haven't stood up and said that. This is illiteracy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[23:04:58]

COATES: But some Republicans are saying something, like asking who's going to take the fall if this whole experiment blows up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): I'm assuming this all got gamed out because -- because it's a novel approach. It needs to be thought out. Whose throat do I get to choke if this proves to be wrong?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: With me now, Brendan Duke, senior director at the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities and former senior adviser on the Biden White House National Economic Council, CNN political commentator Karen Finney, CNN analyst and White House correspondent for "The New York Times," Zolan Kanno-Youngs, and Kevin O'Leary, chairman of O'Leary Ventures and a Shark Tank judge. Happy to have all of you here.

I want to begin with you, Brendan, because we're just minutes away, as you know, from midnight, which is when tariffs go into effect on China and around the world. Trends have already been lost. But what happens if we go into a full-scale trade war?

BRENDAN DUKE, SENIOR DIRECTOR AT CENTER ON BUDGET AND POLICY PRIORITIES, FORMER WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: Look, it's really ugly. This president won the election based on reducing costs, but he has enacted the largest tax increase we've seen in over 50 years. And you know who's going to pay the price? Americans shopping at Walmart, Americans shopping at Costco.

We don't know the purpose of these tariffs. The only thing we do know is he's planning on taking tax revenue from Americans paying more at Walmart and Costco and putting that into tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans.

It's totally gross and it's putting us on the brink of a recession. It could cost us tons of manufacturing jobs as we get into this trade war. It's a really disturbing policy. I hope he backs off.

COATES: But Kevin, he said there's a lot of deals that -- they're literally kissing his ass, was the phrase he used, you know --

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah.

COATES: -- Very -- very eloquently. Where are the deals?

KEVIN O'LEARY, CHAIRMAN OF O'LEARY VENTURES, SHART TANK JUDGE: A 104 percent tariffs in China are not enough. I'm advocating 400%. I do business in China. They don't play by the rules. They've been in the WTO for decades. They have never abided by any of the rules they agreed to when they came in for decades. They cheat. They steal. They steal IP. I can't litigate in their courts. They take product technology. They steal it. They manufacture it, sell it back here. Never has --

(CROSSTALK)

COATES: -- 400% tariffs? What would that look like?

O'LEARY: I want Xi on an airplane to Washington to level the playing field. This is not about tariffs anymore. Nobody has taken on China yet. Not the Europeans. No administration for decades. As someone who actually does business there, I've had enough. I speak for millions of Americans who have IP that have been stolen by the Chinese. I have nothing against the Chinese people. They brought great literacy, art, and tech to the world. The government cheats and steals.

And finally, an administration may not like Trump, may not like his style or his rhetoric. Finally, an administration that puts off and says enough. Four hundred percent tariffs tomorrow morning. I'll tell you why. Xi can only stay the supreme leader if people are employed. If we wipe out any business there because we are still 39% of all consumables on earth and 25% of the world's GDP, America is the number one economy on earth with all the cards. We will not have that forever. It's time to squeeze Chinese heads into the wall now.

COATES: Well, hold on --

(CROSSTALK)

I hear you, but hold on. If we're talking about people, the average consumer, not necessarily the head honchos of businesses all across the globe, can they withstand the -- the pressure of that sort of tax on the good ones?

O'LEARY: Short-lived. There will be --

COATES: But -- yeah. But what -- what's your timeline compared to -- you don't know the average American's timeline, what they can actually survive. There are people right now who can survive --

O'LEARY: Four hundred percent tomorrow morning. Cheese on an airplane to Washington to cut a deal.

COATES: What do you think?

FINNEY: You know, here's the thing, though. This is the perfect example of I understand how it would benefit you, but that's not what the American people voted for. They voted because he -- Trump said within 24 hours, cost will come down.

COATES: Trump supporters, by the way, you're talking about --

FINNEY: Well, Trump said that --

COATES: Uh-hmm.

FINNEY: -- to -- and there were people in the middle who said, okay, I'm going to vote for that. He also said he would end the wars. That's not happening. We still have supply chain issues. So, I just filled up my tank yesterday. Gas prices are knocked down. Rent, groceries prices are not down.

And when people are looking what's happening in the markets and they see the uncertainty and they see their 401Ks -- I had to listen to my mom talk about her investments on Sunday, and she's nervous. I get it.

On top of that, though, don't forget, tomorrow we're going to have a vote on a budget that is going to be also another series of cuts for the American people and a little bit of gamesmanship, as you were saying, so that we can sort of pay for the tax cuts for folks like Kevin. Then we've also got DOGE, and we've got the impact that the DOGE cuts and the cuts of -- in jobs are actually having on economies around the country.

So, it's when you layer all that together. And I think what you saw over last weekend is people don't want to wait anymore. People are angry. I mean, we saw incredible turnout over the weekend in rallies all across the country.

[23:10:01]

We're seeing it in the polls. People are frustrated.

COATES: I want to bring this into real terms as well. I mean, I'm -- I'm an everyday person. Let me tell you that right now. And so, when I'm talking about how much things cost, I want to know things I'm going to afford or not afford. Listen to what somebody who's a furniture store owner in Kansas had to say about, say, the price of a sofa.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HENRIK SVENSEN, OWNER, MY HOME CONTEMPORARY FURNITURE: With the 54%, if -- if we sell a sofa for a thousand dollars, we will have to sell it for $12.99. And if it's a 104%, then that sofa will be over $2,000. I -- I don't think they can afford it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Zolan, that's a real figure for a lot of people. A $2,000 couch as opposed to what they thought they are going to spend?

ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES: Yeah. That means higher prices for average Americans. And, by the way, that's what Republicans in Congress right now are also worried about here. Hearing from their constituents at town halls and as the weeks go by, if consumer prices go up, that economic frustration then turning into political backlash against them and the administration.

COATES: But Kevin's point is that it's short-lived. What's your reaction?

KANNO-YOUNGS: Well, I mean, the -- you know, I'd up to debate whether it's actually going to be short-lived at this point. Consumer price is going up. Again, economists say U.S. importers do pay the price of tariffs. That thing goes down to the consumer.

Also, one thing that is consistent right now is uncertainty. There's uncertainty right now. And this gamble that the administration is doing, that the average American will be able to weather through any type of economic frustration is bet on the idea that you'll then have investment in a -- in American manufacturing. Tough to pair investment with uncertainty.

COATES: So, where does consumer confidence factor into all this? If people are nervous about what they can or cannot afford, how about that short-lived proposition?

DUKE: I mean, it's plummeting. And I think the only way we're going to restore it is if Congress takes back the car keys from the president and takes away his power to impose a -- the largest tax cut in 50 years with the stroke of a pen. That's the only way that people are going to have confidence.

If he announces a series of deals tomorrow, what's going to happen, you know, in a month from now? Nobody is going to have any confidence that this is going to go away as long as he has, you know, basically, the gun on the resolute desk. American consumers, businesses are all at risk as long as it's there.

COATES: Oh, we're talking about, obviously, sofas. But how about iPhones, which so many people have? There's this notion of making it in the United States. Talk to me about that, Kevin. What is the likelihood that that could actually happen? There are people who are saying fat chance.

O'LEARY: Moving manufacturing back to the U.S. takes a long time. But I'm still focused on two aspects. I mean, you have to differentiate the tariffs negotiated between countries because Eurozone, just 48 hours ago, said something remarkable. For the first time in decades, we're willing to go to zero on zero. That means they open up all markets to all products, all services. That's a huge win.

So, forget about Israel or, you know, Thailand or Cambodia. We're talking about one of the largest economies on Earth saying, okay, we get the joke. You want to sell cars? You want to sell a Corvette in Berlin? We're okay at zero. We've never had that before. So, let's call that a huge win. We haven't done the deal yet, but let's get the German people over here to start negotiating that. Agriculture in Britain will go to zero on zero. Canada, we'll love to do energy zero on zero.

So, Trump's -- that's a huge win for him. Huge. He hasn't even taken advantage of it yet.

COATES: Kevin, part of it -- this is -- I'm curious from your perspective and everyone. If one of the biggest assets of a negotiation is leverage, if he has said they're here to stay, does that remove some of the ability for him to negotiate in the long run with these countries?

O'LEARY: Well, I'm trying to differentiate between the trade in non- parity. For an example, you talk about Thailand. I have a company that makes greeting cards. Hewlett Packard laser cutter is making greeting cards in Thailand because labor is cheap and we FedEx them every day here. There's -- they only have economy of 35 billion. And the deficit is 200 billion. That country will never have trade parity with us. It's too small. But

we can go to zero tariffs with them.

And I'm telling you, there's a difference between getting everybody at zero on zero, which is free trade, basically, which for Trump would be a huge win. That call 48 hours ago when the Eurozone said, okay, uncle, we'll go to zero, take that win. It's a huge win.

Now, getting trade deficits settled, that's going to take decades because we are the largest economy on earth by a factor of two and a half times.

(CROSSTALK)

KANNO-YOUNGS: -- deficits.

KANNO-YOUNGS: I also want to zoom out because I do think it's worth noting that there are many in Congress as well as the business community that are questioning if the White House and specifically the president is even ready and in position to negotiate.

[23:14:58]

COATES: The Home Depot --

KANNO-YOUNGS: There's mixed --

COATES: -- co-founder made a comment and saying something like, you know, I'm quoting here, "I don't understand the goddamn formula. I believe he has been poorly advised by his advisers about this trade situation -- and this formula they're applying."

You already see a tension between Musk and Navarro.

KANNO-YOUNGS: That's right. And that's not it. There have been mixed messages from different aides. Some are saying -- you know, they do want negotiations. The White House said today that 70 governments around that have come to the White House looking to start conversations at the same time.

But, really, the person who matters the most is Trump and what he wants to do. And there's been plenty of comments of him digging into his heels in as well. I wrote a piece weeks ago when the initial tariff threat against Mexico and Canada went out, saying that sometimes the tariffs don't seem to be a means to an end. They seem to be an end for the president as well.

COATES: Hmmm. How do you see it?

FINNEY: Well, this is also the difference between running a business and running a country. Right? Because the politics of this are, okay, we are going to start negotiating with 70. Start -- how long is that going to take? Is that months? Is that the rest of the year? Then we're into the midterm season.

And if you're a Republican member of Congress and you are hearing from your constituents who are saying, look, now we're in a recession, now my prices are even higher than before, why haven't you stood up to the president, then you're going to -- they're going to put them in a real bind.

And the one thing that this -- the Trump pushback for Trump is he doesn't care because he's not running again. But if he wants to keep his majorities in the House and Senate, his team at least understands you better have a plan. There better be a plan to, are the tariffs a means to an end or are they the end game? And what are we going to be saying? And how will we keep our majorities if we want to keep enacting this regime?

COATES: I mean, Brendan, the -- the timeline, you know, it's not indefinite. We work on an election cycle. We're less than two years away from midterm elections. And to that point, I mean, tonight, Trump was saying that he thinks the tariffs will help Republicans in the midterm elections.

But you have some polling. This has been quite different. Right? The polling says -- it shows most Americans believe that tariffs will increase costs, and Democrats looking to seize in many ways. This timeline can counteract whatever gains he thinks he's making.

DUKE: I think he's losing political power by the day. He's not even being able to get his budget through the House republican caucus that was listening to him all the time just a couple weeks ago. So, I think he's just losing political power because, again, he won the election on reducing costs and people aren't buying it. They're seeing the stock market go down. They're seeing recession fears. They hired him to do a job. It was to reduce prices. He's refusing to do it.

He -- we don't even know the strategy out of this at the end of the day. Is it deals or is it to have tariffs to create this grand manufacturing paradise where all Americans make iPhones and stocks? I don't know. His advisers are split. And markets can't react. The American people just have no confidence in an actual strategy here.

COATES: Well, we will see. A lot to unpack in the days to come. It hasn't even been 100 days yet. I want to remind everyone. Thank you so much for being here.

Up next, did federal agents target the attorney of a student protester? Well, tonight, that lawyer, an American citizen, says that's exactly what happened when agents detained him at the airport, even demanding to see his phone. The story getting national attention tonight, and you're going to hear from that attorney next. And later, the data that DHS want from the IRS that led several officials to resign in protest tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: An attack on lawyers, says Michigan lawyer Amir Makled, who claims federal agents recently detained him at the airport after returning home from a family vacation abroad. Why? Civil rights lawyer says that border agents targeted him because he represents clients accused of crimes that run afoul of President Trump's policies, including an activist who was arrested and charged with connection with a pro-Palestinian encampment at the University of Michigan.

In a statement to CNN, U.S. Customs and Border Protection confirmed Makled was detained and questioned, though they dispute his characterization of the encounter, deeming the accusations -- quote -- "blatantly false and sensationalized."

Well, Amir Makled joins me now. Amir, thank you for joining. I want to understand what happened here because you got off your flight, you went to customs, and then federal agents took you aside. What did they say to you?

AMIR MAKLED, ATTORNEY STOPPED BY FEDERAL AUTHORITIES: Well, the moment I -- I went to the passport desk, the agent asked for a TTRT agent, which my understanding, after I looked it up, meant terrorism task force response team or something along those lines. It had something to do with a tactical terrorism response.

And so that was deeply concerning to me. And so, eventually, they led me into an interview room, and they had a special agent come in, who wasn't wearing a new -- a uniform and didn't identify who he was, but started asking me pointed questions. And they knew about me. They had my history. They -- they knew I was an attorney.

They said that we know that you're taking on some high-profile cases right now. And the only high-profile case I'm involved in currently is a student protester at the University of Michigan. And so that raised my awareness and -- and caused for me to pause and -- and be alarmed as to what the purpose of this questioning was.

COATES: It must have been pretty stunning for them to give you your own career to you and know who you were in that particular realm. I mean, they also -- they -- they wanted your phone. What specific information were they after? Did they tell you and -- and did you give them your phone?

MAKLED: Well, the first question they wanted was, is your phone with you? And I absolutely -- I said, yes, it is. And they handed me a pamphlet.

[23:25:00]

And they had a federal statute on it that basically said that they're allowed to confiscate my phone at the border. And they told me very clearly, they said, we're going to take your phone or you can open your phone and let us go through the contents of your phone. And at that point, I told them, you guys already know that I'm an attorney, and I have privileged communication in my phone. I'm not going to just willingly give you my phone and allow you to rummage through all the contents of -- of whatever is in my cell phone. It's just not going to happen.

And it took me about an hour and a half of debate with these -- with these agents before they agreed to not take my phone, but only if I first let them look at the contact list that I had, people that are stored in my phone.

COATES: Really?

MAKLED: A contact list to see who the names were.

COATES: Did you acquiesce to that?

MAKLED: At that point, I acquiesced because I wasn't interested in them letting to -- to take my phone away from me. So, I allowed them to go to my contact list and look at that. And at that point, they started asking me very pointed questions about individuals who were within my contact list.

They wanted to know how I was associated with these individuals, what my relationship was with them. And, you know, at that point, I also pushed back and said, I'm not going to give you those details. Anybody that's in my phone is either considered to me a friend, a family member, or a client. And that information is not something I'm just going to give to you -- to any federal agent.

COATES: Now, Amir, the CBP says in a statement -- I'm -- I'm reading here a quote -- that during the approximately 90-minute screening, officers worked to ensure attorney-client privilege was respected during electronic media search. He provided written consent to a limited search of his electronic device, and all actions were conducted in accordance with established protocols. He was then promptly released. Claims that this was an attack on his profession or politically motivated are baseless. Our officers are following the law, not agendas" -- unquote.

So, why do you think this happened to you?

MAKLED: The agent was very clear with me that he knew I was involved in some high-profile litigation. It -- it was very clear to me that they had done their homework about me, they'd done their research about me, and this wasn't a randomly selected additional screening or additional questioning after coming through the border. This was something that they were waiting for me, ready to ask me questions, and were, in in my opinion, done with an intentional purpose to either intimidate me or harass me.

Why bring up that I'm involved in some high-profile litigation? Why mention that at all to me? Why say that we know you're an attorney? If there was some sort of a non -- you know, if their intention was not based off of my political thoughts or process or the representation of my clients and the criminalization of the free speech of my client at the University of Michigan encampment case, you know, why else would they have stopped me?

There's -- I'm coming from the Dominican Republic. This is not a trip that, you know, would raise any awareness. I was on a spring break trip with my -- with my wife and kids. And, you know, unfortunately for my family, they had to wait and -- and see me being detained by federal agents in the airport.

COATES: That must have been very disconcerting and troubling to your family. I'm -- I'm thankful that you came here tonight to describe your experience. I think it's very important for us to hear it. Thank you so much, Amir Makled.

MAKLED: Thank you, Laura.

COATES: Well, tonight, a Trump-appointed judge dealing a major blow to the White House and a victory for the First Amendment. The judge temporarily lifting the ban on the Associated Press from attending Trump events and accessing the Oval Office and Air Force One. Now, this spat started after Trump signed an executive order proclaiming the Gulf of Mexico was now the Gulf of America. But most countries still call it the Gulf of Mexico. The AP said that it would do the same since it's a global newswire. So, the Trump administration banned the news organization. And there has been a new prop behind Trump, maps with Gulf of America emblazoned on it.

But tonight, Judge Trevor McFadden saying -- quote -- "The Constitution forbids viewpoint discrimination even in a nonpublic forum like the Oval Office."

The AP says the ruling affirms the press can speak freely without retaliation. But the legal battle isn't over. The White House can certainly still appeal.

Still ahead, an act of defiance at the IRS. Top officials there refusing to sign over data to immigration authorities. Why the request was so, well, off putting that several have now decided to resign.

And later, the inside story of Joe Biden's doomed campaign from what his aides really thought about his mental state to how Barack Obama felt about Kamala Harris. The author of a new tell-all book joins me tonight.

[23:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: New tonight, sources telling CNN that the acting commissioner of the IRS, Melanie Krause, is resigning. Krause is the latest in a series of senior officials exiting the IRS in just the last week, and she is the third IRS chief to step down this year.

Resignation comes on the heels of a controversial new data sharing agreement that the agency struck with immigration and customs enforcement yesterday.

[23:35:02]

Now, under the agreement, the IRS will provide sensitive taxpayer data to ICE to help them locate and deport undocumented immigrants. We're told this played a role in Krause's decision to resign.

With me now to discuss, CNN political analyst and White House correspondent for "The New York Times," Zolan Kanno-Youngs. Zolan, wow.

YOUNGS: Yeah.

COATES: I mean, CNN is reporting multiple officials resigned because of this deal. What more do you know?

KANNO-YOUNGS: So, my colleague, Andrew Duehren, has been reporting on this today. We've all been tracking this in the past few months. This has long been an ambition for this administration. DHS has been putting in proposals, crafting proposals around this for really months now, and it seems they are finally reaching this point.

The administration has been intent on bringing in not just ICE, CBP, the agencies we think about when we think about immigration enforcement, but bringing in so many different federal agencies for this primary goal of President Trump. That includes bringing DEA to assist immigration agents, FBI, Bureau of Prisons as well, and even an agency like the IRS. Right? And you may ask why. It comes down to the data that the IRS has because the data that the IRS has fills in a gap that the administration has had thus far.

COATES: The address.

KANNO-YOUNGS: The address. Right. So, Trump -- the Trump administration for -- during the campaign said, like, it really raised these expectations for these mass deportations, a record amount, millions of deportations, which most would say is unrealistic. And that's because of logistical challenges. The immigration agencies are under resourced. But also, they don't know where every undocumented immigrant is. Right? Now, in the --

COATES: Undocumented migrants and immigrants do pay taxes.

KANNO-YOUNGS: They do.

COATES: So, therefore, this data might be readily available at that agency.

KANNO-YOUNGS: And there was also an agreement, too, where they pay taxes and the IRS would keep that confidential. By the way, a lot of that tax money goes towards the revenue that supports IRS functions as well.

COATES: Well, that's why I wonder about the legality of not only maybe that agreement, but the agreement that would be between the administration and, of course, being the fuel for why many of these senior officials have resigned. I mean, what does this agreement say?

KANNO-YOUNGS: Right. Right. So, the initial agreement today would basically say that when ICE goes to the IRS, specifically for undocumented immigrants that they've asked to leave or that they're investigating, that they want the IRS to turn over that personal information. The administration is pointing to a carve out that basically specifies criminality in that aspect.

But, again, this information has long been held confidential. This is something that actually the IRS has been resisting for -- for really weeks now. This resignation actually is surprising. My colleagues are reporting, too --

COATES: Really?

KANNO-YOUNGS: -- because the acting chief of the IRS actually seemed to be going along with some of the other DOGE actions that was happening in terms of accessing. But this was just something that was too far here.

COATES: Why would this a bridge too far compared to everything else, you think?

KANNO-YOUNGS: Just that sensitive of providing something, that confidential data. I mean, remember, the federal government has asked undocumented immigrants to pay taxes for years in the case that if they were to naturalize, they would be in good standing. So, the federal government asks you to do this, you do the right thing, and then it's going to come back on you in that way.

But for the administration here, I mean, they have long wanted this information because they know that this is a hurdle standing in their way to get to that deportation target. And now, we are reporting from weeks ago, we got an initial, like, draft of this agreement.

COATES: Uh-hmm.

KANNO-YOUNGS: And while this only says personal information, this latest one, we did have an initial draft agreement that did specify addresses, that that's what DHS wanted. So, if you can get the addresses of these people, you know, that's -- that's -- that's definitely something that this administration has been targeting for long.

COATES: When I hear you say crimes or they're investigating, I mean, that's a very, very big umbrella.

KANNO-YOUNGS: Yeah.

COATES: And so, they could decide what it means to be investigating and who gets the information as well. Tax Day is a week away, by the way.

KANNO-YOUNGS: And we'll also have to see if this is challenged, too. If this faces legal challenges as well.

COATES: Let's -- I'll take that bet. Zolan Kanno-Youngs, thank you.

KANNO-YOUNGS: Thank you.

COATES: Up next, remember how chaotic the last days of the Biden campaign were? The claims of a cover up, the catastrophic debate. Well, turns out it was way wilder behind the scenes than we even knew. Author Chris Whipple got the inside minute by minute story, and he joins me next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: Oh, to be a fly on the wall. Inside President Joe Biden's inner circle as a 2024 campaign kicked into high gear. As the whole world watched and often at times drained but dogged candidate determined to keep his nomination alive, that is until the day he dropped out.

A brand-new page-turner gives a firsthand account of Biden's disastrous political campaign, exposing the -- quote, unquote -- "state of denial among his most loyal advisers about Biden's ability to win reelection."

[23:45:00]

Chris Whipple is with me now, longtime Biden whisperer and author of "Uncharted: How Trump Beat Biden, Harris, and the Odds in the Wildest Campaign in History." It's available in stores now. Chris, welcome to the program. I mean, months after --

CHRIS WHIPPLE, AUTHOR: Good to be with you.

COATES: Thank you. Months after Trump's reelection win, many are still wondering why didn't Biden's inner circle stop him from pursuing that second term. I mean, former Obama aide, Bill Daley, told you -- quote -- "Every freaking one of them had no balls" -- unquote.

WHIPPLE: Yeah. You know --

COATES: What happened?

WHIPPLE: -- as wild and as strange and as shambolic as that presidential campaign was, it was even wilder behind the closed doors. And, you know, Daley is referring there to specifically -- to Democratic leaders who failed to step up and challenge Joe Biden for the nomination. But he could have been talking about Biden's inner circle as well because throughout the campaign, they were really lost in a kind of fog of denial and delusion.

They -- you know, the closest advisers to Biden believed, despite all the evidence, that Joe Biden was capable of running for reelection, of winning, and of serving another four years. Now, it was really delusional, but it's actually a story that is even stranger than a so-called coverup, which many have alleged. This was different from a coverup. It wasn't a Watergate-style coverup. It wasn't a grand conspiracy, as Karl Rove has described it. It really was a case of people, who should have known better, believing that Biden could win.

COATES: Well, talk to me about the moment that I think many people point to as a decisive moment in the minds of -- whether he should still be the nominee. The debate. The debate between himself and, of course, Trump. You know, tell me about what happened behind the scenes. What were you hearing?

WHIPPLE: Well, the extraordinary thing about the debate, excuse me, among other things, is the -- what preceded it. I have the untold story from Ron Klain, who was in charge of debate prep. He was, of course, Joe Biden's first chief of staff. He was startled by Joe Biden's condition when he arrived at Camp David to prepare. Biden had no grasp of what was -- what the campaign was about. He couldn't really talk about his second term plans. At one point, he wandered out and sank into a lounge chair by the pool and fell sound asleep.

And yet, Klain and Biden's advisers went ahead with an early debate. They sent him out onto a stage with Donald Trump thinking that he could go toe to toe with a guy who is obviously a real challenge. It was amazing and really delusional that they did it. And it was not some kind of conspiracy, as some have alleged, that -- that they knew he was going to fail. They believed he would do fine.

COATES: You know, your book also -- you talk about how part of the -- the debate prep involves -- I want to root people -- Hollywood filmmaker Steven Spielberg. I want to get more into that in your book as well.

But I want to turn to Vice President Kamala Harris because she had to sort of coalesce nomination support very quickly. And she seemed to hit her stride for quite a long time. What went wrong?

WHIPPLE: Well, I also have the untold story of how Kamala Harris was really preparing privately, secretly, through Democratic operatives who couldn't be traced back to her campaign for exactly what happened when Joe Biden stepped aside.

But look, I think she had -- she hit her stride immediately. She was -- she was running a very good campaign right up through the convention. And then she went sort of radio silent. She -- she didn't do interviews.

And I spoke not only to the highest aides in the Biden camp, but also in the Harris camp and in Donald Trump's campaign as well. Susie Wiles, who was the co-chair of Donald Trump's campaign, was amazingly candid with me. She said, you know, we couldn't believe how bad she was, referring to Kamala Harris. She thought that the campaign did with Harris just what they did with Joe Biden in 2020 when they hid him in the basement. They had the excuse of COVID then. But, as we know, Harris wasn't able to sit down with Joe Rogan and Trump took advantage of this very powerful right-wing alternative media.

[23:49:55]

And, anyway, it was a campaign that, you know, ultimately might have been unwinnable because Joe Biden and his advisers who had, you know, they certainly had their achievements, failed to recognize that he was not ready for a second term. I'm afraid his story really ends in tragedy.

COATES: Well, the book is "Uncharted" by, of course, our guest, Chris Whipple. Thank you so much for joining.

WHIPPLE: Great to be with you.

COATES: Up next, he has spent the last two years traveling the country, witnessing the combination of misinformation and extremism. And now, CNN's Donie O'Sullivan is here to share what he learned from it all, next.

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[23:55:00]

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COATES: The godfather of 3D-printed guns, pardoned January 6 rioters, a Luigi Mangione fan club. Sounds like quite the Motley Crue. Right? Well, CNN's own Donie O'Sullivan is speaking with all of them and more in the latest episode of "The Whole Story with Anderson Cooper." And sometimes the conversation is a bit, well, a little scary. Here's Donie talking with MAGA activist Ivan Raiklin at a January 6 pardon press conference.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You mentioned Pelosi. What do you think she would be charged with in this scenario?

IVAN RAIKLIN, ACTIVIST: I mean, simple statue. This is treason.

O'SULLIVAN: Treason?

RAIKLIN: Yeah. Absolutely. And I would like to see at the end of the due process, lawful capital punishment.

O'SULLIVAN: Would you be disappointed if, in 12 months from now, somebody hasn't been executed for treason?

RAIKLIN: I think the nation will be furious.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): He says even I could be a target.

RAIKLIN: I'm not sure yet if you are or are not on the deep state target list because I haven't consumed all of the information that you've put forth to determine what -- what your status should be.

O'SULLIVAN: But we've been hanging out --

RAIKLIN: As we ruin you.

O'SULLIVAN: As you what?

RAIKLIN: Just like you ruined us. An eye for an eye. Look at Leviticus as a Christian man.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COATES: Joining me now to discuss, CNN senior correspondent Donie O'Sullivan. I'm just going to pick up where that very tense and strange moment left off just now.

O'SULLIVAN: Uh-hmm.

COATES: I mean, you heard some threats, the idea of ruining you. What was going through your head at that moment?

O'SULLIVAN: It's really the friends you make along the way. Isn't it, Laura?

(LAUGHTER)

COATES: Okay. I think you redefined friendship, Donie. But go ahead.

O'SULLIVAN: I -- what -- what we're trying to do, what we hope to do in this episode of "The Whole Story," is just really show -- by the way, this month is actually the 30-year anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombing and Timothy McVeigh. Really just trying to give our audience a sense of how really mainstream so much extremism has become and just how easily many of us are becoming radicalized.

I mean, if you think back to Oklahoma City, Timothy McVeigh was in part inspired by "The Turner Diaries," an antisemitic white supremacist novel. At the time, that was sort of difficult to -- you know, somewhat difficult to get your hands on a copy of that. Whereas today, now, we have basically the equivalent of "The Turner Diaries." And worse, being served to hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of us through algorithms, through -- through social media.

And what you see, that gentleman that I was speaking to there, you would have noticed in the clip that we were interviewing him, but he was also streaming on his social media. This is a very common thing now. But he's sorts of one of these MAGA-type world influencers who is just very openly, clearly, as you can see there, calling for violence, calling for, as he says, retribution.

COATES: Unapologetic and quite clear, and wanted this to be broadcast, going from, talking about extremism, hiding to hiding in plain sight to here I am and I stand for this.

But we meet other people along the way in this kind of Motley Crue in this installation. Tell me about other people we're going to see.

O'SULLIVAN: Yeah. I mean, there's -- there's a lot going on right now. COATES: Uh-hmm.

O'SULLIVAN: But, you know, just back to this idea of -- of really how technology is changing us and radicalizing us. Luigi Mangione alleged -- the alleged murderer of -- of Brian Thompson --

COATES: Uh-hmm.

O'SULLIVAN: -- was alleged to have used a 3D-printed gun. So, in -- in this episode, we also go to meet really the godfather of 3D-printed guns. His name is --

COATES: Who knew there was one, first of all.

O'SULLIVAN: -- Cody Wilson. He's an activist based out of Texas. But, again, just kind of going back through time a bit, if you think 30 years ago, there was the notorious "The Anarchist Cookbook." Here, remember, the book had instructions to make homemade explosives and things like that. It was tied to multiple attacks, terror attacks through the decades. Again, something that was sort of difficult to get your hands on.

COATES: Uh-hmm.

O'SULLIVAN: But today, not only do you get the instructions to make -- to make these recipes for -- for homemade explosives, you have material, all the plans to print 3D gun. And -- I mean, I was shocked when I went to this 3D printing facility in Austin because the 3D printers are so widely available now, so cheap. You can literally print these guns at home.

[00:00:01]

COATES: Very, very interesting indeed. Thank you, Donie. You can catch the latest episode of "The Whole Story," "MisinfoNation: Extreme America," this Sunday at 8 p.m., only on CNN.

Hey, thank you all so much for watching. "Anderson Cooper 360" is next.