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Laura Coates Live
Trump Announces 90-Day Pause For Tariffs On Nearly 60 Countries; Trump Orders DOJ To Investigate Two Former Officials; Small Business Owner Reacts To Trump Tariffs; Michigan Governor Whitmer Faces Some Heat For Comments On Trump's Tariff Plan; Law Enforcement Looks At Another Suspect In The Murder Case Of Four Idaho Students. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired April 09, 2025 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00]
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Two or more walking side by side on a sidewalk, you're gone. El Salvador. Recline your seat on an airplane -- El Salvador. Disney adults, you're going, too. And finally, pronouncing your email signature. Out of here. Those are my E.Os. Out of here.
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: All right.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: Gone.
ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: What was the thing? Kissing adults is always --
JENNINGS: Disney adults.
PHILLIP: Disney Adults. Okay. All right, everybody. Thank you very much for watching "NewsNight". Thank you all for being here in the studio. You can catch me anytime on your favorite social media platforms -- X, Instagram and TikTok. "Laura Coates Live" though starts right now.
NAVARRO: What's Disney adults?
LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR: Well, you might say President Trump had to roll America back into the operating room he was talking about and undo the procedure that he carried out just a week ago. He is announcing a 90-day pause for tariffs on nearly 60 countries after days of market chaos and, of course, recession fears.
Stocks, they reverse days of losses in a matter of minutes, but we are not out of the woods. Trump up the ante on his main target, talking about China, raising tariffs on all Chinese goods to 125 percent, and several other tariffs, well, they're still in place.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS EDITOR AT LARGE: Number one, you still have the auto tariffs. Number two, you still have the steel and aluminum tariffs. Number three, you have the Chinese tariffs at 125 percent the largest bilateral trade relationship. And number four, you have a new global U.S. tariff of 10 percent. We are so far from being out of this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: So in other words, don't unbuckle your seat belt? But what has sparked Trump's turnaround today? Was it the chaos in the stock market? Because it's been a wild ride ever since Trump unveiled his tariff plan last week.
You can see three major U.S. indexes from so- called Liberation Day until now. Looks like someone took a huge bite out of the middle and to Trump, all the noise over the stock market sounded something like a barking dog.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Well, I thought that people were jumping a little bit out of line. They were getting yippy, you know? They were getting a little bit yippy, a little bit afraid, unlike these champions, because we have a big job to do. No other president would have done what I did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Yippee. Oh, sorry. Yippee? I failed that one. But could it have been warnings about a recession? The biggest banks to the wealthiest billionaires have been sounding the alarm but Trump had shrugged it off.
Well, that is until J.P. Morgan CEO Jamie Dimon appeared on television this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARIA BARTIROMO, FOX NEWS HOST: Do you personally expect a recession?
JAMIE DIMON, CEO, J.P. MORGAN: I am going to defer to my economist at this point but I think, probably, that's a likely outcome.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: And guess who is watching?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Well, I watched Jamie Dimon on Maria Bartiromo Show this morning and he was very good. He said that -- actually made the statement to effect that something had to be done with the tariffs and trade.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Could Trump have retreated because he got most of what he wanted all along? I mean, he does say that dozens of countries are lining up to make deals. And Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent says it was -- it was all part of the plan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT BESSENT, TREASURY SECRETARY: It has brought more than 75 countries forward to negotiate. It took great courage -- great courage for him to stay the course until this moment. This was driven by the President's strategy. He and I had a long talk on Sunday, and this was his strategy all along.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: But was that the strategy all along? Because, well, there's all of this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETER NAVARRO, TRUMP SENIOR TRADE ADVISER: This is not a negotiation. This is a national emergency.
HOWARD LUTNICK, COMMERCE SECRETARY: I don't think there's any chance they're going to -- that President Trump's going to back off his tariffs.
PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: That's -- that's cemented.
LUTNICK: He is not going to back off. There is no postponing. They are definitely going to stay in place for days and weeks.
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The President made it clear yesterday this is not a negotiation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: So, which is it? Well, the President himself got asked about it. He's giving it his trademark weave treatment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: A lot of times it's not a negotiation until it is, and that happens. We brought everybody to the table, and it may not be a negotiation. It may not last.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: So, what about what about the bond markets? One of the safest investments in the world -- U.S. Treasury notes, they got hit with a huge sell off in the last 48 hours, and you know, Trump noticed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The bond market is very tricky. I was watching it, but if you look at it now, it's -- it's beautiful. The bond market right now is beautiful. But, yeah, I -- I saw last night where people were getting a little queasy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Yippee and now queasy. Well, CNN is learning a potential bond market catastrophe is what convinced Trump to hit the pause button.
[23:05:04]
For -- to say that Bessent raised his concerns about the sell off this very afternoon. And why are the bond market so important?
(BEGIN VIDE0 CLIP)
CHARLIE GASPARINO, FOX BUSINESS SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: If you have a mass sale of bonds, that means people are losing confidence in the U.S. economy, on the ability to do deals with us, and from what I understand, this is what forced the hand of this 90-day reprieve.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Well, whatever the reason for the tariff turnaround, it shouldn't be any surprise that Trump's trying to spin all of it as a victory.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You have to have flexibility. I could say here's a wall and I'm going to go through that wall. I'm going to go through it no matter what. Keep going and you can't go through the wall. Sometimes you have to be able to go under the wall, around the wall or over the wall.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: But Trump may want to ask himself, how much of that wall did he build by reinforcing it with tariffs? With me now, Democratic congressman from Pennsylvania, Brendan Boyle. Former communications aide for Senator Lindsey Graham, T.W. Arrighi. CNN political commentator Ashley Allison, and anchor for Bloomberg News, David Gura. Glad to have all of you here.
I'm going to be in with you, David, on this, because the market bounced today. It was welcome but there was a lot of damage done so far. Is -- are we out of the woods or over that wall?
DAVID GURA, BLOOMBERG NEWS ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: We're not. And so, we have this really strong, fortified wall now between the U.S. and China. That's the result of all of this. So, we have this ninety day reprieve now when all of these many countries are going to be calling up the White House, trying to have these meetings with the President. That's going to play out.
And I can kind of think just recognize the fact that trade deals take a really long time to negotiate and broker. The fact that they want to do all of these at once is a pretty extraordinary thing. But that relationship between the U.S. and China is the really significant one and the one that the White House cares the most about and the one where there's been no traction whatsoever.
The President has said over and over again, he's waiting for that phone call from Beijing. It hasn't happened yet. His counterpart in the E.U., Ursula von der Leyen, made a phone call to her Chinese counterpart. They've talked. So, China is playing this game. It has a steel spine just as the President does. I think that's the thing to watch here.
But to go back to what you said about the bond market, among the safest safe haven assets are U.S. treasuries. And I think that's the thing that not only spooked the President but spooked markets and investors all around the world last night. We saw, obviously, the deep dives in the stock market over these last few days.
But once that sell off began, people really began to worry about that -- that with that portend, what we've seen in 2008 -- 2020. That is smart reporting the thing that really freaked out the White House investors around the world.
COATES: So, what would it mean to have a protracted trade war with Beijing, China?
REP. BRENDAN BOYLE (D) PENNSYLVANIA: Well, you know, it's interesting. Before all this chaos in the last week, if we just focused on China, there actually is bipartisan support on Capitol Hill for this. You might remember there was bipartisan support for Trump's limited tariffs on China in his first term, and President Biden mostly kept those in place again with bipartisan support.
So, if he had decided all along just to focus on China, not needlessly alienate our Canadian allies and our European allies and focus on China, all of this could have been avoided. And it is still the case today even after the turnaround today, and I thank God that it happened. Nonetheless, the odds that this economy, which everyone was projecting would be growing in this quarter just a few months ago, are now still likely headed to recession.
COATES: Are you buying it when President Trump is now saying this or, you know, you have people saying this is all part of the plan. This was -- this is how I intended everything. Oh, you rolled your eyes.
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, I didn't.
COATES: Let me ask Ashley because she -- why are they -- okay.
(CROSSTALK)
COATES: T.W., go ahead. She wants to pause the eye rolling. Why don't you begin?
T.W. ARRIGHI, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS AIDE TO LINDSEY GRAHAM AND MIKE POMPEO: I do, to a degree.
COATES: Okay.
ARRIGHI: Look. Donald Trump never takes anything off the table. He said that about weaponry and in wars. He says that about finances. And no one should be surprised the tariff issue as a whole, right? The man has been saying it over and over and over again.
COATES: For decades.
ARRIGHI: Yes, for decades. None of this is a shock. And the problem that Democrats have by chasing the stock market and saying, oh, look, the 401-Ks are down is that when they bounce up, just like egg prices. Oh my God, eggs are high. Then they go to -- they crater by 50 percent. Now, that talking point goes away.
You separate these things into two buckets. There is the debate that Donald Trump is making about rates. They believe that the Europeans, charge us too much. America is a very low tariffs nation. The E.U. is not. Other nations are not. And then you have the other argument, which is the onshoring of manufacturing and unfair trade practices, which rely mostly in China.
So, there are two different goals for those two sets of -- of countries. One for the rest of the world and one for China. And I think getting better rates for the American producers and exporters in Europe and elsewhere in the world besides China is a win for the administration.
COATES: What do you say to that? The idea of going from he did this to he did this as a possibility if it bounces back.
[23:10:00]
Do Democrats fear that they won't own the good?
ALLISON: I'm trying not to roll my eyes.
COATES: Okay, what? You failed. You rolled your eyes again.
ALLISON: Well, at least I'm trying to get the camera not to catch me rolling my eyes.
ARRIGHI: I'll roll it, too. I'll roll it, too.
ALLISON: Okay. Come on. We are not stupid. The American people are not stupid. Then he was catapulting us into a recession. Some of his most conservative allies were like, what are you doing? And he blinked, as he should have, because he was about to destroy the American economy.
This was not the plan. They made a mistake. Their math was not mathing, and it hurt Americans. Now spin it all you want, but I will hand you Dramamine after the show because you will be dizzy.
ARRIGHI: Well, I -- I will say this. There is no doubt that there is a debate in the Republican Party about tariffs, right? What you hear, what you have heard President Trump campaign on sounds more like Bernie Sanders' economic policy when it pertains to tariffs than Ronald Reagan's. That's not a surprise to anybody. But the -- to say but, again, there is political capital to expend
when you do a big move like tariff policy. He's trying to rewrite the mistakes of the wrong with NAFTA and other things that he believes drove manufacturing -- yes, we got low prices.
Everyone else got jobs. He's trying to rectify that -- that like it or not, and there's plenty of dissension on our side of the -- of the ball. But that -- that is the policy he's laid out.
COATES: Well, Congressman, how do you see this? And by the way, I love the Dramamine quote. That was hilarious.
ARRIGHI: That makes me very sleepy. Makes me very sleepy.
COATES: I listened to you, but that that was in my mind, as well. But Congressman, when you -- when you hear the idea of -- of Democrats, obviously, they're in a bit of a bind because it -- about a month ago, days ago, weeks ago, how are you going to calculate it, Democrats were being criticized heavily for not doing enough, that they weren't seizing on the moments of failure that they perceived the Republicans doing.
Now, you've got the 401-Ks. You've got the issues of what's happening in the stock market and beyond. Are you concerned that your party is not capitalizing enough in a way that moves the needle back towards your majority?
BOYLE: Yeah. So first, Donald Trump has only been president less than three months --
COATES: Yeah.
BOYLE: -- which has been the longest decade of my life, with -- with three years and nine months to go. I have to say though, and it's funny, I was being asked by a number of reporters right around the inauguration, what was -- what were the similarities or differences now versus eight years ago?
And my answer then is totally different than it is now. Then I was saying, you know, I was really surprised. There was a lack of energy and enthusiasm on the Democratic side. People really demoralized. A lot of people checking out of even consuming news. And then, boy, about a week later, it only took one week for Donald Trump to be president.
And specifically, DOGE, what they started to do, you could tell night and day, not just in my office, but other offices of my Democratic colleagues, the phone's running -- ringing off the hook, and they haven't stopped.
This weekend in Philadelphia, in my district, right on Independence Mall, I spoke in front of a crowd of 15,000 people. We have more people activated now than we did six months ago during the campaign. So, Donald Trump continues to be actually -- he is a unifier in one sense. He's the greatest unifier and motivator of Democrats in my lifetime. GURA: I think that, you know, just to pick up on something you said
about how the -- the issue of China- U.S. relations is something that's very easy to get your head around. I think what we saw over the last week and a half is a failure to kind of coalesce around messaging surrounding all of these tariffs.
And I think that we saw this week were Democrats and Republicans kind of recognizing that. So, you played that clip of Maria Bartiromo talking to Jamie Dimon. The day before that, she talked to the Treasury secretary, and she asked him a very basic question, which is, why are you doing this? And he struggled to answer that question.
And I think that, you know, to -- to your great point about how there are two ways of looking at tariffs policy, the way that this was expressed by the White House was way more than two ways. We had fentanyl and immigration. We had onshoring. All of these reasons for it and yet that's where it ended.
And I go back to that Rose Garden announcement. You know, there was the -- the fanfare, the pomp and circumstance, the infamous chart, but nothing followed that about what's to happen next. And I think we're still at this moment where even if on shoring is what's going to be the thing that he decides is the motivating factor for negotiation going forward, we really have no detail on how he thinks that's going to happen and what manufacture is going to look like.
COATES: And then then, of course, there's the Trump social media -- Truth social posting. He said this is -- before he declared the pause, "This is a great time to buy." So, everyone's going to have some questions about how this is unfolding.
But, Congressman, I have you here. I want to ask you specifically about Speaker Johnson who was forced to delay something today -- the vote on Trump's budget bill. You're no fan of it. What do you make of that?
BOYLE: I think that's fair to say. Yes. I'm -- I'm the ranking member of the budget --
COATES: I'm the subtle questioner for you. You're no fan of that.
BOYLE: I -- I'm definitely against it. So, I'm the ranking member of the Budget Committee. This is what I spent, my entire day on from early this morning in the Rules Committee where I was testifying and leading the Democratic opposition to it all the way through this evening, when actually, everything came to a halt on the House floor.
And a number of Freedom Caucus members, about two dozen or so, walked off the floor with Speaker Johnson because they are not supporting the current Republican Budget Reconciliation Bill.
[23:15:05]
It is a horrible bill. It includes the biggest cuts to Medicaid in American history. In order to pay for upwards of $7 trillion of tax cuts, almost all of which should go to the top one percent. It is also, polls show, a deeply unpopular plan.
COATES: We have a lot more to talk about. Everyone, stand by. You're all coming back, thankfully, to carry on the conversation. We have much more on this trade war ahead, including this moment today.
Governor Gretchen Whitmer in the Oval Office getting praised by Trump, but then catching heat from Democrats for what she said about his tariffs. Plus, you're going to hear from the army veteran turned small business owner now at risk of losing everything just because of the trade war.
And later, President Trump throws the word treason around as he orders his DOJ to investigate two former critics.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:20:19]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER (D) MICHIGAN: I understand the motivation behind the tariffs and I can tell you, here's where President Trump and I do agree. We do need to make more stuff in America. I'm not against tariffs outright, but it is a blunt tool. You can't just pull out the tariff hammer to swing at every problem without a clear, defined end goal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Michigan governor Gretchen Whitmer facing some heat now for her comments on Trump's tariff plan. You know, for some Democrats, she wasn't critical enough, like Colorado governor Jared Polis who posted on X, quote, "The tariff hammer winds up hitting your own hand rather than the nail, "unquote.
Now, after her economic speech, Democrat and possible 2028 contender met with Trump at the White House that led to this moment. Whitmer standing in the Oval Office says Trump signed executive orders, one of which targeted his critics with investigations.
My panel is back with me. Congressman, are -- are Whitmer's tariffs comments running counter to what message Democrats want to send or is it appropriate?
BOYLE: So, I think there are two things going on here at the same time which is challenging. The first is, it is, I think, always been the majority view on the Democratic side that tariffs, when they are limited and they are industry specific for a specific reason, for example, to stop China from steel dumping. That was a great example of a tariff that many Democrats supported and continue to do so.
I think the challenges in this context -- there's so many folks on my side, myself included, who strongly oppose President Trump and what he's doing, and every single day find ourselves disturbed by the things he's doing, including today, trying to investigate two former Republican members of his own administration who he just doesn't like because they spoke out on principle.
So, I think that a lot of folks on our side, and not just on our side, some Independents and Republicans, as well, want to see us fighting and making sure that we are fighting what Trump is doing, that is inappropriate, even illegal at every single turn.
COATES: Is it always problematic for a party to have dissension or disagreement? Because this can be something that can be helpful to understand where Democrats or Republicans stand, but this is not a unified message then among Democrats. Should it be?
ALLISON: Well, I -- I agree with the Congressman that it's not the fact that there are tariffs. It is the way he is doing the tariffs.
BOYLE: Yeah, of course.
ALLISON: It is whack- a-mole. It's just like the same way with DOGE -- a chainsaw. Like, yes. Nobody wants face -- waste, fraud and abuse, but, like, let's take a scapula to it to do it properly and not just chainsaw the -- the federal government.
I think a couple of things happened. I think social media played it. I -- I wasn't following the news today, and I was like, all I saw was like, what is Gretchen Whitmer doing? What is she doing? And I'm like, what is she doing? Well, she was in the Oval Office. She was invited. I understand she didn't know she was going to be invited to the Oval Office. Look, everybody plays different roles. If Trump --
COATES: How could she not know that she was in the White House, that they were going to invite her for a potential photo op?
ALLISON: Well, as someone who has worked in the White House, we have had governors at the White House and not ever see the president on those days.
COATES: Fair enough.
ALLISON: Same with, like, high ranking officials. Just because you are a high-ranking individual, a high net worth individual, and you are on the White House grounds does not mean you get time in the Oval Office. But this White House runs a little differently.
GURA: The tour goes there now.
ALLISON: Right, you know?
COATES: I was going to say.
ALLISON: So -- so, I think the question is, I don't think her comments on tariffs were the issue. I think the comments and that most Democrats probably want elected Democrat officials to do is when Trump invites you, even if you are on the grounds, you say no.
I'm not coming in for this photo op. I don't really know what the right answer is. I wouldn't go in, but I'm not the governor, and I'm never running for governor. But we all play different roles on the -- the team.
COATES: Speaking for -- of campaigns and potential running for something, does this hurt Whitmer's chances if she were to pursue 2028?
GURA: She gave this marquee speech at CFR, Council on Formulations here. She's clearly trying to lay the groundwork for raising her profile. And I think, you know, going back to the way she's talking about tariffs the way the President is, he's trying to redefine what they are.
And for a really long time, they have been like scalpels used really narrowly and really narrowly used by Congress. And I think that's what Trump is trying to do here. President Trump's trying to do is -- through these -- these emergency actions that he has, make it something that the President gets to do. He gets to determine how blunt it's going to be and how broad-based.
I think it's interesting to have this conversation about how Democrats, how Republicans feel about it broadly because in Congress, we've seen lawmakers cede a lot of ground that they had for a very long history.
COATES: Yeah.
GURA: When they were the ones who are kind of determining this more so than the President and he has effectively through these last few weeks have taken that, and feels like he has the authority to do in a very different way.
[23:25:03]
COATES: Well, T.W., strategically, they say it's better to try to define your opponent or their policies before they're able to do it themselves. That way, you drive this narrative. And on that note, Democrats have been trying to find their next leader, and you may have heard Republican Senator John Kennedy thinking that it's Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. I want you you listen for a second to what he had to say about her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R) LOUISIANA: As I've said about it before, I think she's the reason there are directions on a shampoo bottle. And our plan for dealing --
SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST: You're trying to figure that out. We got --
KENNEDY: Our plan for dealing with her is called "Operation Let Her Speak".
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Obviously, he's trolling her. BOYLE: Yes, of course. And I want to know how much time Senator
Kennedy comes up with those quips because he's full of them. They're very funny. I agree with it. I endorse it because AOC belongs to the wing of the Democratic Party that still does not -- has not wrapped their head around why they lost. The embrace of -- of big government, identity politics is not what the American people voted for, and that's in stark contrast to Gretchen Whitmer.
Look, I think the -- the Democrats' biggest mistake after Trump won was go into full on resistance, stop Trump mode. That is not a strategy and a message. That's just words. Cutting government is popular among the American people. Lowering taxes is popular among the American people. Saying that if Germany charges us 30 percent and we charge 10 percent, that's unfair, is popular and -- and agreed to.
The -- the way that the Democrat -- I shouldn't be giving free advice. But engaging with the President early and on certain issues is wise. Gretchen Whitmer, whose state would benefit from an onshoring of manufacturing and wants to see more onshoring, it behooves her to get closer to the President to talk about these tariffs to make sure they work for her state.
Gavin Newsom having -- inviting conservatives on and saying, yeah, we got it wrong on women's sports. We should have had a different tone. You have Rahm Emanuel and others who were saying, why don't we ditch what AOC is saying? It clearly pulled horrific during the -- the campaign and just embrace the fact that Trump is doing exactly what he said he was going to do and that the American people voted for.
COATES: Yeah. Congressman -- Senator, I mean, you can talk, of course. But he -- he went further. He was insulting her intelligence, frankly. I mean, you're -- you're articulating a response about Democratic policies more broadly and -- and a post-mortem on the loss of the presidential election.
But the tactic is let her speak, he's implying, because somehow she is not as intelligent. I mean, the idea of directions for a shampoo -- no. I know you're not endorsing that. That's what he is talking about. Why is this the tactic you think Republicans are taking? Would it be effective against your party?
BOYLE: So, John Kennedy plays a great character on TV. He's actually an elitist. He's an extremely wealthy guy, Oxford University graduate. But then he goes on TV and plays this character or caricature, which is actually really at odds at who he was.
And by the way, watch how he used to speak 15 -- 20years ago when he was a Democrat as opposed to today. So, if you talk about authenticity, I think he has a challenge there. As far as my colleague, Alex, she's an incredibly intelligent, eloquent person. She can speak for herself.
I think at this moment, much like this moment twenty years ago in 2005 and this moment eight years ago, with Democrats completely out of power, it's an opportunity for new leaders to emerge. That happened 20 years ago. It happened eight years ago. I'm confident it'll happen again this time.
COATES: Got a word?
ALLISON: I -- I just think -- I do think, AOC, after the election, she actually went on a live, had millions of people join and said, why did we lose? She actually wanted to listen. I don't have a dog in this fight, whether it's AOC or Gretchen Whitmer.
I think what Democrats, should be doing right now is when Donald Trump does what he does every single day, overreach, press the bounds of our constitution, we should stand up against it and not tolerate it and not capitulate to him.
And we need to tell people what we are for. And I do think AOC has a -- economic message that is beyond the culture wars that the Republicans will try and, like, bait her into that talks about expanding Medicaid, having Medicare.
The issues that DOGE, yes, shrinking government might be a popular issue, but when Social Security phones don't answer, that's not what people voted for, and that will backfire. And I think AOC is trying to tap that energy. We have some time to figure out our message, but we -- the message can't just be against Donald Trump. It has to be what I am for.
COATES: A lot of clocks ticking right now including our time together. I loved our conversation. Thank you all.
Still ahead, it might be one of the most significant acts of President Trump's retribution, so far. He's ordering the Department of Justice to investigate two former officials -- one who pushed back on election lies and the other who penned that now infamous, anonymous op-ed. Trump even calling it treason. Andrew McCabe standing by with his reaction tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:34:36]
COATES: President Trump using his pen and an executive order to threaten the T-word against the critic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think it's a very important case, and I think he's guilty of treason, if you want to know the truth, but we'll find out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: That's Trump ordering an investigation into Miles Taylor. He was chief of staff to then Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen before leaving in 2019.
[23:35:03] And Taylor wrote the 2018 "New York Times" anonymous op-ed, "I Am Part of the Resistance Inside the Trump Administration" which detailed efforts to stop Trump's agenda. Trump also targeting Chris Krebs. He led the cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency. And in 2020, Krebs repeatedly rejected Trump's claims of voter fraud in the election.
Trump fired him. Now, both Krebs and Taylor are not just facing probes. They had their security clearance revoked, as well. With me now, Andrew McCabe, CNN senior law enforcement analyst and former FBI deputy director.
Andrew, I mean, Trump didn't say the allegations against either as to why he was using such a strong word to describe what he thinks is happening. What's the intent of this order?
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: It's a really good question. It's not coherent. There's no consistent legal argument made there. There's no -- there's no credible allegation of -- of conduct that could be described as even potentially unlawfully.
He refers to Chris Krebs as a kind of a bad dude to some extent. Or he -- he talks about his anger about the fact that Miles Taylor was in the room for meetings and listening to sensitive conversations and then wrote a book about it. That happens every day in this town. None of that is illegal. It's a -- it may not be appreciated by, the former -- by the President or the -- his former staff.
COATES: But your agency does have to have pre-publication review, oftentimes, of what you're writing to ensure that you are not disclosing very sensitive or even classified data.
MCCABE: That's correct. So, typically, if you have a clearance, particularly if you have a T.S. clearance and -- and special access, permissions, you sign all sorts of legal documents before you get that clearance, and you agree to submit any publications to pre- publication review, to go -- to ensure there's not -- classified information in there.
I don't know whether he went through that process or not. It's hard to imagine he did if it was a book that was in which his identity was concealed. But even if he violated those procedures, what typically is the -- the remedy is the government can sue you and can try to get the money back that you made on the book and prevent you from publishing the material. It's all after the fact now. So it's --
COATES: Yeah.
MCCABE: -- still a long way from treason, right?
COATES: Right. Well, you know, Taylor -- I mean, Krebs declined to comment on this story in news, but Taylor did post on x saying, quote, dissent isn't lawful. "It certainly isn't - unlawful, it seems. So, it " -- isn't unlawful. It certainly isn't treasonous. America is headed down a dark path." Just break this down to a very basic level. I mean, the word treason, that's a huge accusation. But how is it defined for the purpose of investigating somebody for such an act?
MCCABE: Treason has a very specific effect.
COATES: Right.
MCCABE: It's defined in the constitution. It's all also memorialized in -- in federal criminal law. And it's basically when someone, who is loyal to or expected to be loyal to the United States, wages war against the United States or gives aid and comfort to the enemies of the United States.
So, in this situation -- it's preposterous to even do this analysis. But in this situation, who's the enemy? The readers of the book? The readers of "The New York Times" where the op-ed was published? It's -- it's absurd. There is absolutely no legal justification for even referring to treason in this context.
I've worked on cases before involving terrorists who are ultimately charged with treason. It almost never happens. It's so rarely ever charged in federal prosecutions, and it's only in very extreme situations like that where someone has actually taken up arms against the United States.
COATES: So, where would the FBI and Pam Bondi go with this order?
MCCABE: You know, I think Miles, because there is this book that's at the center of this controversy. I think that's probably where they would start. They'll likely take a fine tooth comb to that book and see if there's anything in there that they could legitimately argue was classified or more importantly, national defense information.
That's what brings you within the -- the penumbra of the Espionage Act. So, you could be prosecuted for wrongfully maintaining, or taking, or distributing national defense information. Miles is a very smart guy. It's hard for me to believe that he wrote that book without being very careful to keep exactly that sort of information out of it, but I would expect that any investigation would probably include a review of it.
COATES: We'll see what happens. Andrew McCabe, thank you so much.
MCCABE: Sure.
COATES: Up next, the real-life consequences of President Trump's trade war.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BETH BENIKE, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, BUSY BABY LLC: I am abandoning my products in China. I am leaving them there because I simply cannot afford to ship them here.
[23:40:03] And I'm terrified for my business.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: She's an army veteran, even made it onto Shark Tank and built her company from scratch. Well, now she's at risk of losing it all. You'll hear from her next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[23:45:01]
BENIKE: And I'm terrified for my business and I'm terrified for all the other small businesses in the in the United States right now because we don't know what to do. And we're invested in our businesses. My home -- I could lose my home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: The burden of tariffs rocking many small businesses all across this country. Woman you just heard owns one of them. Her name is Beth Beneke. She's an army veteran from my home state of Minnesota and a former Shark Tank contestant where she pitched the idea for her baby products company called Busy Baby.
This year, she was named Minnesota's Small Business Person of the Year by the Small Business Administration. And her company has been building momentum in recent months, signing deals with major retailers like Walmart.
But Beth's company manufacturers -- all of its products in China. And now she says it faces uncertain future about President -- after President Trump announced a 125 percent tariffs on the country today. Joining me now is Beth Beneke, the president and founder of Busy Baby.
Beth, thank you so much for joining. This -- hearing what you're going through is so important to understand. And I know that you have already decided to abandon products that you have already paid for and manufactured in China because of these tariffs. Tell us why.
BENIKE: I mean, I can't afford to bring it into the country. You know, we knew tariffs were coming so we budgeted for the -- the typical, you know, 20 to 30 percent we were expecting. We knew that was coming. But when -- when it landed at 54 percent, for us, shipment that's ready to go, that would have been $85,000. I don't -- I don't just have that sitting around.
And I thought, well, you know, maybe I can help -- get help from friends and family. Maybe I will set up a Go Fund Me because I need -- I need my products to get here. And then the video you saw, I made that right after the-- the jump to a 104 percent tariff, which would be $164,000. And now after today's announcement, just to get my products in the country, it would be an additional $197,000.
COATES: Wow. On top of what you've already paid for this?
BENIKE: On top of that.
COATES: $197,000? I mean, that's the more -- it's more than the cost to even manufacture it, isn't it?
BENIKE: Yeah. Yes. It's a 125 percent over the cost. It's -- it's insane. It's not -- it doesn't make any sense.
COATES: You know, when -- when you said that you were concerned about even losing your home because of this, I mean, you're a small business owner. So many people are trying to make ends meet, and you're budgeting and hoping for these products to come in. How at risk are you and your family, Beth?
BENIKE: I mean, we've got about two to three months' worth of product in our warehouse right now. And when that's gone, that means I don't have anything else to sell. And without the revenue that comes in from this -- our online sales, I don't have money to pay the bills, to pay my employees, to pay myself.
If I can't make my loan payments, I default on my loans, and I had to use my house as collateral on those loans. So, I don't know. Maybe I've got six months if things stay the way they are right now.
COATES: You know, there are people, Beth, who are -- who are probably saying, well, maybe there's a simple solution. Just make your products in the United States. What is your response to that?
BENIKE: Right. You know, I -- I looked into that today quite a bit. I have space in my property here. I have 10,000 square feet that are avail -- it's available for lease. What if I made my own factory? What if I bought the machinery and brought manufacturing here and created more jobs for -- for my fellow Americans?
The cost to do that, just for the machines that make my product is a minimum of $344,000 if I buy those machines from China. But now we've got a tariff, so double that because I've got to pair the tariff on top of that.
If I were to find a factory that already exists here in the U.S. that would be willing to take us on, even though we're a small business and they don't take on people that produce such low quantities as we do, it would take at least six to eight months to get up and running because what I have to do first is I have to create a mold for each one of my products. We have eight products in our product line. Each one of those molds is going to cost us at least $20,000 --
COATES: Oh my God.
BENIKE: -- and take months to build. So, if I started tomorrow and we bought the steel, most people don't know the steel goes to China to get machined to become a mold for machinery, even for American factories because that's where the expertise lies. So, if I started that today, in six months and about $200,000 later, I might be ready to start production in the U.S. [23:50:05]
Well, I'm already now three months out of inventory, no revenue, and I don't have that money to -- to start production in the U.S. like this. It's just not possible for me. It's -- it's not even physically possible.
COATES: You know, when people say and they -- they're almost flipping at times and thinking that they know better than the business owners and what you deal with day to day and what it means to you and your family. And, unfortunately, Beth, there are thousands and thousands of people just like you wondering what is next. And I really thank you for helping to explain what it is you're feeling. Thank you.
BENIKE: Yeah. And -- and look out for your fellow business owners. If you, you know, if you know somebody who has owned their own business, this is a mental health crisis for us. We are in complete turmoil right now. Even today, I had an idea for something we could do.
We could export our products from China to Australia, repackage them, and then import them from Australia here. And that's what a lot of people are saying to do, just send it to a different country and then bring it in. There's some cost involved in that. There's some time involved in that. I would have to execute that now, but since policy is changing every 36 hours --
COATES: Yeah.
BENIKE: -- something can put wash on that midstream. I -- I can't even make a decision because things are changing every 36 hours.
COATES: Beth Benike --
BENIKE: Impossible.
COATES: It's an impossible position for you, and I'm sorry. Busy Baby, everyone, is the name of her business. There are many like it. Thank you so much.
Still ahead, a shocker in court. The defense attorney for alleged Idaho killer Brian Kohberger now says she has a tip that suggests there's another suspect. The bombshell claimed tonight as a judge tells prosecutors what they can and can't say at trial.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:56:01]
COATES: Could there be another suspect in the murder case of four Idaho students? That's what Brian Kohberger's defense attorneys are suggesting, telling a judge today, quote, "We came across a tip that would appear to be an alternate suspect and we're trying to work through that as rapidly as we can."
Now, they say they'll present evidence about any different suspects before Kohberger is set to go on trial. But for now, the trial is on, and the prosecution and the defense, they're clashing in court over evidence and rhetoric and whether Kohberger should be facing the death penalty.
Joining me now, CNN correspondent, Jean Casares. So glad you're here, Jean, because this is a really, really important day in this defense. They, today, revealed that one of its witnesses that could give an entirely new theory. What can you tell us?
JEAN CASARES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, they say that they have an -- an expert witness to take the stand to say that it's plausible that there were two killers with two weapons. And that is brand new and you have to ask, well, okay, is that a distinction without a difference? Because the prosecution will come back and say, well, if so, one of them was Brian Kohberger because the DNA is on the knife sheath.
But -- but let's look at the facts that we know so far. Law enforcement believes that these murders happened between 4 A.M. and 4:25 A.M. We know there were four victims. Zana Kernodle had just gotten a Door Dash delivery.
So conceivably, she could have been eating the food right then, but it was determined the other three, all four of them actually got into the house a little after 2 A.M. So conceivably, the rest of them are asleep.
You've got two victims in each bedroom and one person comes in and starts stabbing multiple stabbings we understand, horrific crimes and the other one is right there watching it, screaming? Why aren't they screaming running out of the room? So, I think this is where the defense theory is born.
But here's something interesting, you know, devil's in the details, Laura. And they were arguing something else today, but the prosecutor said that one of the victims which you were focused on had no defensive wounds. So she did not fight back and that comes from sleeping, right? An ambush that like she didn't even have time to be able to fight for her life.
And so, it'll be interesting to see if the defense develops it. They want to put in alternate perpetrators, but the judge said you've got to have some nexus here to the crime. You can't just willy nilly put somebody in there. So, we'll see how they -- how they do this and if -- if it is significant or if it ends up being sort of a wash there.
COATES: And, Jean, just having you recite those facts as alleged, so disturbing to think about what happened that night, that early morning, day. It's just unbelievable. And there was also a lot of talk about how the prosecution can talk about the defendant, Brian Kohberger. What were the conclusions the judge drew today?
CASARES: Well, the -- the defense is very concerned that the prosecution is going to refer to him as a psychopath or a sociopath, and the prosecution stood up and said, your honor, we really have no intent to do that. But the defense, of course, is concerned that it could come out in opening statements or through an expert witness. And the judge then intervened and said, well, there's been no diagnosis of this, right?
And so, that sort of ended that. But then they get into the bushy eyebrows. And remember, one of the surviving victims, one of the two roommates had said that she thought he had bushy eyebrows. Well, the defense doesn't want that terminology in.
And now, we hear that this roommate, D.M., underwent five different law enforcement interviews. On the first one is where she gave her main description. She mentioned nothing about eyebrows at all.
[00:00:00]
But then in the second one, law enforcement focuses in and says, what about the eyebrows? Describe the eyebrows. And the defense is saying that that came from law enforcement, not her. And that should not be included in this trial along with that picture right there which was taken hours after somebody committed the murders. Brian Kohberger took a selfie, has eyebrows, bushy.
COATES: The minutia of this case, Jean, please continue to keep us informed. This is a really important one. Jean Casares, thank you so much.
CASARES: Thank you, Laura.
COATES: Thank you all for watching. CNN's town hall with senator Bernie Sanders and Anderson Cooper is up next.
